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On August 03 2010 12:54 DTown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:23 ckw wrote:On August 03 2010 12:15 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
how come in this you don't say anything about changing any zerg... tvz is my hardest matchup as terran... and i'm sure most other terrans can concur i've read through these changes and they seem to only increase the zerg's advantage....?? Because after Zerg got nerfed when they were super strong at the beginning of BETA some of them started making threads upset that they were now such a weak race. It has carried on because everyone else jumped on the bandwagon without any reason. Only because "that guy" said it. Yea, this is exactly the reason this legitimate conversation has carried on for months. Yep, not because every Zerg player of every skill level has played what they thought to be a great game, legitimately got a great macro and food advantage over their opponent, only to watch their well-balanced army literally melt to tanks. It's not because those same players try and take a different approach and say ok, I'll build some mutas for harass, to slow down the terran. Then they watch Thors obliterate their mutas from 7 range, that is when the terran's 50 mineral T1 marines or 100m T1.5 turrets or 150 mineral 75 gas range 9 vikings aren't around to do the job for them. I'm not even crying about balance, but suggesting that everyone who is espousing the viewpoint that the TvZ might possibly be imbalanced in terran's favor are just morons listening to some "random first guy" is just plain foolish and ignorant. Hey. Also, just to make sure this post is controversial enough, here's a fun fact. According to Blizzard's own definition, Terran mech vs Zerg is Cheese. The argument can certainly be made that ZvT mech is completely balanced. In fact, as a Zerg player I personally think it definitely can be beaten with the right tactics and strategies, but even the most biased terran players will agree it takes a metric shit-ton of effort on the Zerg's part, utilizing flanking, positioning, drops, and FG/NP all at the right times and in the right places on the map. Cheese - An easy-to-learn, but hard-to-master rush strategy that is generally more difficult to defend against than it is to execute.
you forgot the word "rush"...
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On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
I simply can't comprehend how Muta/Lings fall to Thor/Hellions with equal-resource armies. It's like... madness.
Otherwise, I do agree that there's some tweaking to the matchup to be done. OPs suggestions are not the answer, though. Lowering the OC costs (say 25 MULE for 135 minerals, 25 Supply for 4 food, 25 Scan for half the radius) would be an enourmous buff and a real helper, as it wouldn't really tax taking the wrong decision anymore.
Hope blizzard can find a middle ground between tuning down Terran and developing Zerg to be a bit more resourceful in early-mid (increase Roach base MS by 10-20% and range by 1?)
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On August 03 2010 18:06 billyX333 wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135260.jpg) give zerg a tier 3 turtle breaker like dark swarm terran can literally plant 20 tanks + 20 turrets at the xel naga tower + AFK until zerg kills himself in the game and in IRL
They already have broodlords and ultras, what the hell else do you want? Ultra+Queen can pretty much break ANY entrenched position.
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Ultras are good, my biggest problem with them is that every time I have teched to them I already have a 200/200 army and it's usually inferior to my opponents 200/200 army. It just never feels like a seamless transition, I have to throw my army away and hope I do enough damage or my opponent is too bad to counter while I replace it with ultra
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United Kingdom12029 Posts
On August 04 2010 04:01 floor exercise wrote:
Ultras are good, my biggest problem with them is that every time I have teched to them I already have a 200/200 army and it's usually inferior to my opponents 200/200 army. It just never feels like a seamless transition, I have to throw my army away and hope I do enough damage or my opponent is too bad to counter while I replace it with ultra
I have the same problem with Battlecruisers, I think it's just one of those things by the time you feel your ready for them, you're maxxed. I usually just suicide a ton of SCVs though, since I always manage to make far too many than I need.
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I have a feeling the next time Blizzard releases its match data we'll see this match up pretty close in Diamond.
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On August 03 2010 21:19 MythicalMage wrote:
If you took out tanks, hell perhaps if you even nerfed them, Terran would become completely inviable. Bio is completely useless vs Muta Baneling, and mech or bio mech is all we really have versus Zerg. Pure mech takes a lot of skill, Bio mech some.
I didn't mean they should be taken out. But as it is, you can play with just tanks and do fine - that's not fine :>
I know full bio gets raped by blings. When something gets nerfed, goal is to make unit balanced (tank/thor), not useless.
How on earth can someone claim pure mech takes lot of skill? Compared to what? It's the least intensive way to play, it doesn't require a lot of anything. In SC1 vultures and mines actually made it relatively skill intensive way to play, but SC2 mech just doesn't have any high skill factors in it. In comparison to any other mid/late game strat by any race, mech is not hard. Slowly moving armies with huge firepower can hardly be made very skilled.
I didn't just claim terran newbish race. IMO tanks are the easiest unit to use in terran army for full effect. I have much higher respect for terrans who try to play with any other lategame strat than full mech.
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I aggre with u totally buy as u said proubably not all of them could be inplented, I am a protoss player and to macro as terran seems really easy to just stack up all buildings in one hotkey and just tab around while microing the army..
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On August 04 2010 04:01 floor exercise wrote:
Ultras are good, my biggest problem with them is that every time I have teched to them I already have a 200/200 army and it's usually inferior to my opponents 200/200 army. It just never feels like a seamless transition, I have to throw my army away and hope I do enough damage or my opponent is too bad to counter while I replace it with ultra
If you dont throw your 200/200 at his 200/200 without using brain, you should be fine. Your 200 for his 100-150 is good trade and you should win the game based on fact your army replenishes so fast and good 100 of Ultras will do miracles. Of course if you are sitting on 3 bases against opponent's 3-4, that might change things..
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On August 03 2010 21:04 Ouga wrote:
Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness.
No they would not. They cost a ton of supply, a ton of gas, and are a pretty big tech investment. The smart fire probably needs to be removed, but nerfing damage would probably really hurt their cost-effectiveness
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On August 03 2010 23:08 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 23:03 floor exercise wrote:
Almost every terran unit has obscene range.
Why do marauders have better range than marines? They are the armored infantry, designed to, I would think, be infront of marines to absorb hits since they have precisely 10 billion health. yet they out range marines and sit in the back while tons of marines can soak up damage.
Siege tanks have 13 range. It is so ridiculously hard to attack into these things. Thors and vikings have obscene air range too, just nonsensically far range. I don't understand why every terran unit should be allowed to hit things across the map.
I would honestly lower every one of their ranges by 1 and see what happens. Terran would likely still be better than the other races. They shoot missiles is why. Also, putting marauder in front maybe a new micro skill, and we all know how much TLers want micro skill. Tanks were in Brood War and that's super important. Thors and Vikings can be nerfed pretty safely, I feel.
Nerfing viking range will certainly affect TvP, and will make Colossi far more standard. HT is favored over Colossi simply because they are much harder to counter with a reactor unit
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On August 04 2010 04:10 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 21:04 Ouga wrote:
Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness. No they would not. They cost a ton of supply, a ton of gas, and are a pretty big tech investment. The smart fire probably needs to be removed, but nerfing damage would probably really hurt their cost-effectiveness
Ton of gas? Big tech investment? 100 gas isnt that much. 2.5 Hydras = 1 tank in gas. 1.25 muta = 1 tank. Big tech investment? 1 tech lab + siege upgrade. Look at roaches with burrow. OL speed and OL drop.. It is far from big tech investment to get siege tanks. Especially since marine (no gas) counters air.
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just throwing an idea out their: the roach nerfes in beta(regen->armor->armor->supply) have allowed the terran to more safely push out tanks(and other mech) earlier with out having to spend as much gas on maurders to counter roach. Does anyone else think the roach nerfs where in the wrong order now looking back? If supply and regen where nerfed first would the 2 armor nerfs have even need to come?
views of a mid plat player take witha grain of salt.
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the problem is not that there are no possible counters to the terran bullshit, the problem is that he can constantly keep you at an disadvantage the whole game and he won't let you get to t3 let alone to ultras who take like 10 million years in real time to hatch.
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United Kingdom12029 Posts
On August 04 2010 04:28 heishe wrote:
the problem is not that there are no possible counters to the terran bullshit, the problem is that he can constantly keep you at an disadvantage the whole game and he won't let you get to t3 let alone to ultras who take like 10 million years in real time to hatch.
The way I see it, is it's exactly the opposite of brood war.
Oh, one thing I've noticed in any TvZ I've won in Diamond, is their first push fails, yet they retreat their units, but rather than holding center, they always run all the way back to their nat and basically give my tanks a free walk up to the middle of the map, what gives?
I remember in Brood War I could never get center control unless I worked really, really hard.
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Zerg don't build enough queens. Queens + banelings + infestors + roaches = GG Terran. If you have mad WC3 micro skills like me, at least.
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On August 04 2010 04:28 heishe wrote:
the problem is not that there are no possible counters to the terran bullshit, the problem is that he can constantly keep you at an disadvantage the whole game and he won't let you get to t3 let alone to ultras who take like 10 million years in real time to hatch.
Thors take 60 secs to build.
Ultras take 70 secs to build.
In real time on fastest setting:
Thors take 43 secs to build.
Ultras take 50 secs to build.
A 7 second difference in time, but Zergs can build several at a time while thors come out 1 at a time unless you have a lot of factories with tech labs. As I see it, Ultras don't take that long to build.
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On August 04 2010 04:42 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:28 heishe wrote:
the problem is not that there are no possible counters to the terran bullshit, the problem is that he can constantly keep you at an disadvantage the whole game and he won't let you get to t3 let alone to ultras who take like 10 million years in real time to hatch. Thors take 60 secs to build. Ultras take 70 secs to build. In real time on fastest setting: Thors take 43 secs to build. Ultras take 50 secs to build. A 7 second difference in time, but Zergs can build several at a time while thors come out 1 at a time unless you have a lot of factories with tech labs. As I see it, Ultras don't take that long to build.
Yeah, but getting an ultralisk DEN takes ages, and before that you will be pretty much dead to any mid-game push with 2 thors, 2-4 tanks and marines/hellion combo.
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United Kingdom12029 Posts
Wait, one other thing I haven't ever seen used is baneling mines.
Why do people not use these? They explode and kill nearly everything to the unsuspecting player. They can detonate underground too, and it's not as if you generally have a raven with you.
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baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck.
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EPT
