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On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem.
idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors...
all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base.
fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
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Regarding old ZvP and map balance and SC2 balance, if it takes fast expand maps to fix a racial imbalance, then something could have or should have been done to balance 1 base play vs the race. If the only way to balance the races is to make 2 base vs whatever base play the standard, then half of the _potential_ strategies, builds, etc. go out the door. Why not just give the race better options earlier instead of waiting for an expand?
Not to say each race should be able to expand at the exact same time or harass or whatever at the exact same time,... but just general each race should have an even chance of winning at any point in the game (on average... and hopefully much less emphasis on extreme all-in never recover cheese builds).
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On August 04 2010 02:14 mahnini wrote:
i just felt like i should point out one more time that these complaints are the very same complaints people made in PvZ imbalance threads before.
1. Zerg had too many openings which Protoss had to prepare for
2. Lurker contain was stupidly effective and hard to break
now, let's think about this for a second. back when PvZ imbalance was a hot topic we had a pretty mature progaming scene. we had guys practicing 12 hours a day in progaming teams exchanging a plethora of builds and ideas, we had guys like nal_ra and anytime, full-fledge starleague winners who STILL had a hard time breaking from conventional PvZ.
at the time even in progaming ZvP stats would favor Z. take a look at map stats for maps from 05-06 maps like rush hour 2 or peaks of baekdu had 60%+ winrates in favor of zerg ZvP. i remember at the time the standard opening in PvZ to be either 2gate zealot or 1base reaver or sair dt. we had TONS of threads in BW strat about the possible imbalance in PvZ and by the end of the discussion damn near every protoss player thought it was impossible to win and that there was something fundamentally flawed with their race. we had suggestions to buff scouts, buff maelstrom, buff DAs, pretty much every damn thing you could think of.
all that retarded shit went down the drain the moment some up and coming protoss kid from MBC dethroned the motherfucking bonjwa with one build. it's fine to be discussing this but to think 2 weeks after release we understand a matchup more than progamers understood their livelihood in 2005-2006 is pretty damn stupid.
By that logic we should test each patch for a year to see if someone breaks the conventions and is able to break free from the belief of imbalance. What if we were on patch say 5. I could say the same. Let terrans figure out a way to beat protoss, and all their supposedly imbalanced units. Tell blizzard not to put out more protoss nerfs because it might just be that terrans haven't figured out a way to deal with some builds. It's an awful logic to be in.
While it's true some strategies are not yet discovered and that those could change the balance, we should act on what we now know otherwise we might end up waiting for a salvation strategy that will never come because after all, the imbalance really existed. Actually, it's foolish to assume it doesn't. All matchups except mirror matches should be assumed imbalanced until evidence in contrary, some are more, some less. PvZ might be the least imbalanced of all that we can call it balanced for all practical purposes, still it doesn't mean there isn't 5Hp or 1 range that could be added somewhere that would make it better. People saying if you lose a game it's never imbalance should not post, or start using their brains instead.
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On August 03 2010 06:21 shynee wrote:
Before you make a thread about terran nerfs.. can you at least post some of your TvZ replays. I find a lot of people complaining about TvZ but when I watch their reps they always:
- Undermine infestors
- Don't tech up to Ultras
- Don't get that extra expansion over terran
- Only mass 1-2 types of units
- Dont abuse Terran mech immobility
..the list goes on
Asia seems to have no problems, neither does Idra.. but I guess its Idra right?
Edit:
People also dont realize that Zerg is defending and droning up at the start of the game.. I win all my TvZ if my initial harass works against Z. But if zerg players defend with minimal casualties.. then they instantly receive the advantage mid-game.
You scrub, LaLush dun need to post up replay, u can just SEARCH for them urself. They're all on youtube, andi 'm sure day9's done a couple of dailies on him.
On your 'points'
- BURROWED infestors can't actually casts anything other than infested terrans, and with no overkill on tanks, it's almost not worth it.
-Games where you DON"T see tech to ultra's is because usually the Z CAN"T tech to ultras. We're too busy spending money def'in against your mid-game pushes. I mean, it's 200m 150g for hive tech which takes a while. And then i THINK 300m 200g for ULT caverns, which ALSO takes awhile. Then we have to up the armour upgrade too. Not to mention, during all thid, we have to spread creeps around so Ults can actually get to the T ball. Meanwhile, if you see us do that., you can research THor cannon which i'm sure is cheaper and faster than Hive Tech + Ult caverns combine. Which then one shot thors. Oh and in response to the post that says "but u can build 7 at a time" That's like 1.4k min and 1.4k gas we have to stockpile AS WELL as overlords 7 ults is 42 supply, so thats' 6 overlords (another 600mins).
-One-Two unit comp: I'm assuming these Z's loses during the earli-mid game. Zerg army usually only masses up one or two units comp is because zerg duzn't have as many options as other races. That and resource restrictions. You'd usually see muta/ling cause lings costs no gas and mutas costs heaps of gas. Hydra/Roach once again for previous reason. Off of 2-base can you think of any other combination that's supportable?
- DOn't get that extra expansion over terran. Lol if they don't get an extra expandsion, it might be because they can't. I"m no expert on 1base play so I'm not gonna comment on this.
-DON"T abuse Terran's mech mobility: Lol if your suggesting Overlord drops/Nydus then you probs never tried to do it in a real game with Zerg. More often than not, ur nydus WILL get destroyed. Or if your meching as terran, you'd probably have a few vikings around. It's just so risky flying in overlords loaded with troops. Cheapest overlord would cost 100m+ 200m (8zerlgings). If terran has a sensor tower, than drop is usually out of the question. 1sensor tower is roughly the same cost as ove drop tech i think.
If they don't have vikings, than i'd rather just use my overlords to drop units on top of their mech ball. That, or use them as spotters around their base.
Nydus canals costs about 200gas and 100min just to get the base up. Then it costs another 100min100gas to come out somewhere else that you have vision of. That usually means an overlord granting vision. Then it takes 20secs to actually come out. It has really bad hp. I think pulling 4-5 workers off line can kill a worm that's 50% done. THEN it makes a BADASS roar that tells every1 it's done. THEN it spits out 1 unit at a time.
That's enough about stats, let's talk about the mentality with dropping/nydus'in units. You'd generally want to drop/nydus when the T army is moving out (why would you want to drop when he's in base?) So if a T is moving out, it usually means he believes that he can take your army in a fight. Which usually means he has more units/firepower/w/e. So if your indeed manage to do a doom drop/nydus in base. It becomes a base trade. You have no army at main, (why would u not just fight him head on if you think you can take him?) Your weaker army cant possibly kill his base as fast as he kills yours. If it becomes a "find the supply depot" game, Zerg can only build extractors for 75, or hatch for 300. A Terran can lift up his CC and float it sumwhere. I actually have a game,if i can find rep, where i successfuly nydus'd a Terrans' base with lings and mutas. He agreed to the base trade on DO and walked to my base and blew up my mian. Lifted up all his buildings and floated them to his army. =P was a good game nonethelss.
And your edit. lol that's what we're talking about, Terran can outright win the game at the start due to haras, with nothing out of the normal tech builds. Zerg has to survive the haras welll, and make an army/catch up in eco enough and fight off the later pushes.
Wow what a wall of text, hope it was helpful. I'm sure most Z's on TL would've read these forums and tried all your suggestions, but it's just so damn hard.
EDIT: don't get me wrong, I THINK mech is fine, it's just that it takes such an absurd amount of concentration and awareness to beat it. ALL of the above suggestions CAN work in games, but it just takes so much effort to find that sweet spot or perfect timing for drop using baits for vikings w/e. I love it. lol that's why I haven't swapped race in case those scrubs that comes in and say things like "if T is OP, why not swap?" That and the SWARM has my Kerrigan =P
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On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much.
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On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
I dont konw man, I just saw them and I cant agree with you..
On Metalopolis, IdrA saw no expo for a very long time, scouted Thors (1-2 I think) and he knew there were like 3-5 hellions.
Its Metalopolis, close spawn.. Yet, he refused to make units other than Mutalisks or zerglings. Of course when Silver strikes with Hellion/Thor and all Idra has is Mutalisks + Zerglings hes gonna lose hard..
I think he was extremly greedy with that top left expansion..
This has been discused a lot - Zerg players just refuse to make units and when the push comes, they find themselfs in a situation theres no way back..
You say he did everything righ, but sorry, those points are not really valid:
expanding - Its close Metalopolis, you know he expoed very late, sure some kind of push is coming
good amount of drones - cool, but unfortunatelly, drones wont stay long against Thors
spread creep - For what is good creep when you let Terran come to you expansion?
constantly scouting + keeping queen active - well, he playes 10 hours a day, that would be a bit strange if he made such a blunders..
I feel scared commenting that much on Idra's game, but I will give you my best to explain, why I think he lost..
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On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
I'm not going to try to analyze IdrA's games, but it's pretty ludicrous to think a player can do "everything right" one week after release. The game is broken on a much deeper level if that's the case. But, yeah, a one-base all-in working against a Zerg who played pretty greedily and used the exact wrong unit composition (muta/ling is not awesome against hellion/thor) is the most standard thing in the world.
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When people say "abuse mobility" nydus and drops are only part of it. The majority is speedlings on creep. They unsiege their tanks for a second? Quick flank/surround. I'm not sure what types of maps benefit that sort of thing, but I think we need more of em. I dunno how viable that is, but it seems like it's something that needed emphasizing.
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On August 04 2010 03:04 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame. Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much.
Those mid game pushes you describe are hard as hell for any zerg to defend against. Wonder why?
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On August 04 2010 03:02 me_viet wrote:
A Terran can lift up his CC and float it sumwhere. I actually have a game,if i can find rep, where i successfuly nydus'd a Terrans' base with lings and mutas. He agreed to the base trade on DO and walked to my base and blew up my mian. Lifted up all his buildings and floated them to his army. =P was a good game nonethelss.
Dude, I think that was me! Was it during Beta?
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On August 04 2010 03:11 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:04 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame. Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much. Those mid game pushes you describe are hard as hell for any zerg to defend against. Wonder why?
Listen, just because terrans can literally sit in their impenetrable fortress of a base building one of everything like an excited fat kid in a candy store, and his zerg opponent has to be a Wizard of some repute, equipped with a mystical Orb of Scrying to divine the appropriate unit composition to stop his push doesn't mean the game isn't balanced. If anything, that proves it is balanced for the highest level wizards, and Idra's got a lot more Harry Potter in him than Gandalf
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On August 04 2010 03:00 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 02:14 mahnini wrote:
i just felt like i should point out one more time that these complaints are the very same complaints people made in PvZ imbalance threads before.
1. Zerg had too many openings which Protoss had to prepare for
2. Lurker contain was stupidly effective and hard to break
now, let's think about this for a second. back when PvZ imbalance was a hot topic we had a pretty mature progaming scene. we had guys practicing 12 hours a day in progaming teams exchanging a plethora of builds and ideas, we had guys like nal_ra and anytime, full-fledge starleague winners who STILL had a hard time breaking from conventional PvZ.
at the time even in progaming ZvP stats would favor Z. take a look at map stats for maps from 05-06 maps like rush hour 2 or peaks of baekdu had 60%+ winrates in favor of zerg ZvP. i remember at the time the standard opening in PvZ to be either 2gate zealot or 1base reaver or sair dt. we had TONS of threads in BW strat about the possible imbalance in PvZ and by the end of the discussion damn near every protoss player thought it was impossible to win and that there was something fundamentally flawed with their race. we had suggestions to buff scouts, buff maelstrom, buff DAs, pretty much every damn thing you could think of.
all that retarded shit went down the drain the moment some up and coming protoss kid from MBC dethroned the motherfucking bonjwa with one build. it's fine to be discussing this but to think 2 weeks after release we understand a matchup more than progamers understood their livelihood in 2005-2006 is pretty damn stupid. By that logic we should test each patch for a year to see if someone breaks the conventions and is able to break free from the belief of imbalance. What if we were on patch say 5. I could say the same. Let terrans figure out a way to beat protoss, and all their supposedly imbalanced units. Tell blizzard not to put out more protoss nerfs because it might just be that terrans haven't figured out a way to deal with some builds. It's an awful logic to be in. While it's true some strategies are not yet discovered and that those could change the balance, we should act on what we now know otherwise we might end up waiting for a salvation strategy that will never come because after all, the imbalance really existed. Actually, it's foolish to assume it doesn't. All matchups except mirror matches should be assumed imbalanced until evidence in contrary, some are more, some less. PvZ might be the least imbalanced of all that we can call it balanced for all practical purposes, still it doesn't mean there isn't 5Hp or 1 range that could be added somewhere that would make it better. People saying if you lose a game it's never imbalance should not post, or start using their brains instead.
i don't think you understand. i'm not saying there will never be an imbalance in the case of ZvT. i'm saying things like this which go beyond X unit is OP require much more time and finesse to pinpoint. look at this thread, just look at the OP and the responses you have. we have a hundred different variations on what is actually causing ZvT imbalance. mech, openings, scouting, T being too easy, marauders, slow, etc. none of these address a uniform issue other than the idea that ZvT is imbalanced.
we have several other factors which are being neglected such as map design, quite frankly the time it takes for standard builds to become solidified, and the idea that maybe just MAYBE zergs haven't figured out the best way to deal with terran openings yet. maybe there are some inefficiencies in your build somewhere, a timing that is wrong, a resource drain that can be delayed or cut.
i can tell you right now that if blizzard didn't take it's community feedback seriously i would've made 2 posts in this thread laughed it off and quit posting. but blizzard has shown that it does pay attention to community feedback and holds TL opinion in somewhat high regard so i feel it is a bit irresponsible to be claiming massive matchup imbalance when no one yet knows or even if there is a concrete (unit stats, cost, etc,) problem.
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On August 04 2010 03:08 MythicalMage wrote:
When people say "abuse mobility" nydus and drops are only part of it. The majority is speedlings on creep. They unsiege their tanks for a second? Quick flank/surround. I'm not sure what types of maps benefit that sort of thing, but I think we need more of em. I dunno how viable that is, but it seems like it's something that needed emphasizing.
Ahh i love it when Terran makes a mistake and sends out tanks onto Zerg creeps by themselves sieges, then unsieges =] I have no problems winning those.
What say you to a more harder challenge:
What if, they float a viking/scan/run helions to check where your army is, then unsieges and moves slowly towards your base?
Btw, it's not the CREEP that gives vision, it's the TUMOURS. That's why i predict later on, Z and P will start dedicating units to kill tumours much like how in BW there were goons going around clearing mines.
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On August 04 2010 03:12 Ainsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:02 me_viet wrote:
A Terran can lift up his CC and float it sumwhere. I actually have a game,if i can find rep, where i successfuly nydus'd a Terrans' base with lings and mutas. He agreed to the base trade on DO and walked to my base and blew up my mian. Lifted up all his buildings and floated them to his army. =P was a good game nonethelss.
Dude, I think that was me! Was it during Beta?
lol nah, it was like a couple of days ago, but i'm sure all Z and T's would've had this experience before. Shouldn't be uncommon.
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On August 04 2010 03:04 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame. Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much.
If by everything you mean composed an army off of one base then casually expanding despite 15 mutas in the air and then attacked with it when ever he felt like winning then yes he did everything right.
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On August 04 2010 03:24 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:08 MythicalMage wrote:
When people say "abuse mobility" nydus and drops are only part of it. The majority is speedlings on creep. They unsiege their tanks for a second? Quick flank/surround. I'm not sure what types of maps benefit that sort of thing, but I think we need more of em. I dunno how viable that is, but it seems like it's something that needed emphasizing. Ahh i love it when Terran makes a mistake and sends out tanks onto Zerg creeps by themselves sieges, then unsieges =] I have no problems winning those. What say you to a more harder challenge: What if, they float a viking/scan/run helions to check where your army is, then unsieges and moves slowly towards your base? Btw, it's not the CREEP that gives vision, it's the TUMOURS. That's why i predict later on, Z and P will start dedicating units to kill tumours much like how in BW there were goons going around clearing mines.
I didn't say it was perfect, just that's another tool to use if you can. And I agree with you on the tumor thing. I think that it provides map control similar to what mines did.
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On August 04 2010 03:26 Ruthless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:04 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame. Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much. If by everything you mean composed an army off of one base then casually expanding despite 15 mutas in the air and then attacked with it when ever he felt like winning then yes he did everything right. He made a one base army, very American style, built up a strong push, then attacked with it. He knew IdrA would have to bring his mutalisks back to help with the assault on his main, and felt comfortable with that.
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On August 04 2010 03:11 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:04 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame. Wrong. Silver did everything right. It's absurd to draw any conclusions about ZvT imbalance from these stupid games. The guy clearly knows Idra's style and uses builds with the sole purpose of putting mid game pressure on passive players. Idra is wonderful at denying harassment from units like banshees and hellions while amassing units. There's no denying that. Mid game pushes with tanks+marines or thor+hellion - not so much. Those mid game pushes you describe are hard as hell for any zerg to defend against. Wonder why? I see counters & preventative builds to this exact push on PlayXP occasionally. Imbalance issues are, for the most part, fads. Cycles of whining have plagued StarCraft since the days of D22-Soso. It takes somebody with a desire to experiment to break these cycles. Just look at Broodwar and all the imbalance crap that people used to shout. Even Sen, quite possibly the best zerg user right now, has difficulty with particular builds. Does he chalk up his losses to his opponent using imbalanced races? Fuck no - he innovates.
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iirc before sc2 beta idra was constantly whining about broodwar protoss.
omg nerf broodwar protoss before it destroys the broodwar pro scene!
fact: terrans or specifically TANKS are slightly too good against zerg. if blizzard nerf tank and then terran becomes underpowered, then blizzard will again take action, so just stop the scrubby bickering. /endthread
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*Sigh* All of these Terran nerf ideas coming around the community are going to release the unique taste of all the races and just make them all boring and equivalent. ;/ "Well if that race has it, I want it too!"
And Zerg Larva timing is difficult? Are you kidding me? I am in Diamond and had absolutely no trouble race switching to Zerg for a bit and completely destroying.. If you're having trouble with Larvae and think it's even MARGINALLY less effective than MULE's, you're out of your mind.
Here's a hint.. ShiftV Backspace click backspace click backspace click etc.
Also, stop being a noob and bringing "Difficulty" into the equation of balance. Terran was EASILY the most mechanically demanding and difficult race in SC2 ( I switched to Zerg eventually because my Carpel Tunnel did not enjoy this), but that didn't make them "Better", and more times than not race imbalances come from maps, not the actual race. I don't mean to be harsh, but stop being bads and get good at the game, train. Do what famous gamers did in BW, and break the theoretical "imbalances" with innovative play.
All crying IMBA posts on the forums could be used to train. I'm not even counting the time people spam F5 to see if the next poster agrees with them.
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EPT
