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I think Terran only need a couple minor changes, the rest should be on zerg.
Increase Thor build time. One problem of mech is that a siege tank/hellion based army can get thors out incredibly fast. Thors train in 60s which is 10s/pop. By comparison lets look at other Terran units.
Siege tanks: 15s/pop
Marine: 25s/pop
Marauder: 15s/pop
Hellion: 15s/pop
Battlecruiser: 15s/pop
As you can see Thors are extremely efficient at getting a large amount of population out quickly. The problem I have with this is it makes getting thors on reaction very very easy for a Terran player. So long as a terran player scouts well they can safely throw up air defense so long as they scout the spire before it's 60-75% done. This also gives Terran players a strong Thor push option which the Zerg have to deal with.
Since Thors are only really used TvZ I think it makes them the perfect unit to take a hit. You might not think Thors are the problem, but Thors force a lot of changes in Zerg tactics. It dissuades mutas vs mech and creates a threat of a strong ground push with 3-4 thors.
The rest of the stuff I'd change is centered around Zerg, mostly the time it takes for them to get out some upgrades. The problem with TvZ in my opinion is that Zerg has all these options to apply pressure, but they all comes about 30s-1:00 too late to actually be effective.
Likewise with all of the timing windows in the matchup. For example a great ZvT opening is pressuring with a few roaches as it can do wonders against a fast factory build. At the very least it forces out SCVs to repair which can then be sniped. It doesn't do an incredible amount of damage but the roaches are useful vs mech later and the early roaches slows down the Terran's tech and economy. The problem is the time you have to throw down the roach warren is before the time a Terran player will throw down that factory or a 2nd barracks. So you're already invested in a roach opening that can be almost an instant loss vs an aggressive MM opening.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On August 04 2010 08:37 ZannX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:31 Zerksys wrote:
Regarding MULES: Why not just make it so mules have a cooldown rate. I mean if the problem is that zerg and protoss players have to look offscreen more than a terran player, then it only makes sense to put a cooldown rate on mule production. Keep the mule stats exactly the same, just make producing them harder. This way, a terran who is not as good at macroing won't just call down 10 mules at once because he wasn't paying attention. The energy will stockpile and he'll have to use them on scans. Granted that scans aren't bad, but it's still better than getting a whole ton of minerals all at once because you call down 10 mules. Only problem I see with this solution is that it is completely a terran nerf. It does not reward good players. Maybe as a compensation tool make mules have faster repair or make them able to mine gas. That's what I was thinking. A zerg that misses a larva inject is punished pretty heavily. A terran that misses a mule just drops two at a time. Having a cooldown on mules would force the terran to pay more attention to dropping them everytime the cooldown's up. It also balances out the whole... drop 8 mules on a new gold expansion. That's just ... ridiculous.
I don't agree with the mule needing a cooldown, sorry, but there's sometimes during a game where you really don't need to use your mules or scans, like when you're maxed as by that point you'll probably not need to scan much anymore. It's just not sensible to be using them then as the minerals will just get banked and you'll just mine out faster.
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On August 04 2010 09:14 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 08:37 ZannX wrote:On August 04 2010 06:31 Zerksys wrote:
Regarding MULES: Why not just make it so mules have a cooldown rate. I mean if the problem is that zerg and protoss players have to look offscreen more than a terran player, then it only makes sense to put a cooldown rate on mule production. Keep the mule stats exactly the same, just make producing them harder. This way, a terran who is not as good at macroing won't just call down 10 mules at once because he wasn't paying attention. The energy will stockpile and he'll have to use them on scans. Granted that scans aren't bad, but it's still better than getting a whole ton of minerals all at once because you call down 10 mules. Only problem I see with this solution is that it is completely a terran nerf. It does not reward good players. Maybe as a compensation tool make mules have faster repair or make them able to mine gas. That's what I was thinking. A zerg that misses a larva inject is punished pretty heavily. A terran that misses a mule just drops two at a time. Having a cooldown on mules would force the terran to pay more attention to dropping them everytime the cooldown's up. It also balances out the whole... drop 8 mules on a new gold expansion. That's just ... ridiculous. I don't agree with the mule needing a cooldown, sorry, but there's sometimes during a game where you really don't need to use your mules or scans, like when you're maxed as by that point you'll probably not need to scan much anymore. It's just not sensible to be using them then as the minerals will just get banked and you'll just mine out faster.
The same can be said for zerg though. Sometimes you have larvae but no minerals to use them. Using spawn larva then causes you to miss out on the naturally regenerating larva; not casting spawn larva causes you to lose more larva in the long run.
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Did anyone else watch Idra vs Silver on lost temple? http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-z-idra-vs-t-silver-lost-temple-08-03-2010
Are we really cool with this? I mean, ignoring Idra's bm/chat, is this really okay? Just removing or drastically modifying a few maps would probably go a long way in fixing this matchup, as I feel this game illustrates. The adjustments Zerg has to make to stop these types of things are just so drastic that they kind of screw him against most of the other things terran can do, and scouting them in the first place demands some sacrifice early on when 100 minerals is the difference between living and losing, if your overlord sac even works.
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i talked to strelok today and he says the korean zergs he played against play really solid and really safe. they are by far better than all the foreigner zergs and that won 50% of the time vs him i believe, and this goes for the non-progamer zergs too.
and strelok is not a noob, he wins so many zergs in foreigner scene right now. i did not play the korean zergs but i suppose that if this is true then yes, our zergs are just that much worse than us in skill. this is most likely the case because if zerg was having this gigantic issue all over the world since beta phase 2 started then i dont see why the hell not blizzard would patch things up
also talked to artosis today, he basically agrees and confirms with what was said between idra and how i read his post.
early game is definetly the way to look at it right now and almost every single zerg ive talked to agrees with this, just because of the arsenal of builds terran can do and the few response-based builds a zerg can do where he can basically give up mapcontrol or fall behind economically where as terran can choose econ and harass (mapcontrol) or simply econ (no mapcontrol but ridiculous econ) or simply timing attacks (mapcontrol and potential to win early game).
so terran can put on alot of pressure and should naturally fall behind if he doesnt do damage but the way that the game works is that zerg must defend it by stop making drones and start making queen ling roach spores spines etc that if u just put on this pressure while expanding u will not fall behind even if u dont do alot of damage just because of all the forcing
like ive been doing this 1banshee into exp build, artosis just says ok i will need 4 queen to be safe now and get overseer aswell because zerg has no idea how many banshee or how much u will commit to this. so he can take a huge risk and stay decent and lose if i go allin banshee or he can fall behind because my expo isnt that much later at all.
talked to haypro a little about this too, he think open tech is so strong because zerg must be on defensive mode and respond and then if terran just simply expands zerg has no say and its really hard for zerg to scout. so strong because it makes zerg in the dark and really, 1 banshee give u entire mapcontrol before mutalisk so u can expand with almost no units because how is zerg gonna know u expand, and is he willing to fight uphill to kill terrans expo with 2 banshee killing him. same time this banshee force so much out of zerg like i said before that u dont even have to kill drones to make the banshee pay for itself. later on u can just chunk it into ur ball unlike lets say wraith in sc1
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On August 04 2010 09:42 Drowsy wrote:Did anyone else watch Idra vs Silver on lost temple? http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-z-idra-vs-t-silver-lost-temple-08-03-2010Are we really cool with this? I mean, ignoring Idra's bm/chat, is this really okay? Just removing or drastically modifying a few maps would probably go a long way in fixing this matchup, as I feel this game illustrates. The adjustments Zerg has to make to stop these types of things are just so drastic that they kind of screw him against most of the other things terran can do, and scouting them in the first place demands some sacrifice early on when 100 minerals is the difference between living and losing, if your overlord sac even works.
Just watched the game and I have no idea what Idra should have done to counter the tank on the cliff. He defending with spine crawlers but failed and tried to push and failed the push to.
Removing all cliffs from the game would make it more balanced but also would make the game more boring.
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On August 04 2010 10:07 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 09:42 Drowsy wrote:Did anyone else watch Idra vs Silver on lost temple? http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-z-idra-vs-t-silver-lost-temple-08-03-2010Are we really cool with this? I mean, ignoring Idra's bm/chat, is this really okay? Just removing or drastically modifying a few maps would probably go a long way in fixing this matchup, as I feel this game illustrates. The adjustments Zerg has to make to stop these types of things are just so drastic that they kind of screw him against most of the other things terran can do, and scouting them in the first place demands some sacrifice early on when 100 minerals is the difference between living and losing, if your overlord sac even works. Just watched the game and I have no idea what Idra should have done to counter the tank on the cliff. He defending with spine crawlers but failed and tried to push and failed the push to. Removing all cliffs from the game would make it more balanced but also would make the game more boring.
I don't think they would have to go that far, but just having 2k hp destructable rocks positioned in a manner to where 1 tank wouldn't be able to hit both the units attacking the rocks and the hatch would be awesome. Sorta like Kulas.
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I really think that the thor/viking range is the biggest problem for ZvT right now. Vikings + thor make Z air pretty pathetic. The other things you mentioned aren't nearly as much of a big deal if you ask me.
I would also be tempted to agree that drop play is a little too strong, medivacs dropping marauders behind your mineral line are almost impossible to deal with because you can't really hit them with ling/bling due to the mineral wall and 13.5hps on the front marauders (especially not before 12 marauders kill your hatch. This could easily fixed by increasing the distance between the mineral walls and edge of the base though.
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On August 04 2010 10:16 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 10:07 Batch wrote:On August 04 2010 09:42 Drowsy wrote:Did anyone else watch Idra vs Silver on lost temple? http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-z-idra-vs-t-silver-lost-temple-08-03-2010Are we really cool with this? I mean, ignoring Idra's bm/chat, is this really okay? Just removing or drastically modifying a few maps would probably go a long way in fixing this matchup, as I feel this game illustrates. The adjustments Zerg has to make to stop these types of things are just so drastic that they kind of screw him against most of the other things terran can do, and scouting them in the first place demands some sacrifice early on when 100 minerals is the difference between living and losing, if your overlord sac even works. Just watched the game and I have no idea what Idra should have done to counter the tank on the cliff. He defending with spine crawlers but failed and tried to push and failed the push to. Removing all cliffs from the game would make it more balanced but also would make the game more boring. I don't think they would have to go that far, but just having 2k hp destructable rocks positioned in a manner to where 1 tank wouldn't be able to hit both the units attacking the rocks and the hatch would be awesome. Sorta like Kulas.
Kulas Ravine is one of the most terran friendly maps in the map pool. ^_^
Even if there had been a ramp with a destructable rock zerg would never have been able to get it down in time. Zerglings take forever to break the rocks and all terran need to do if he gets there first is to position one marine on the other side of the rock to prevent it from being destroyed.
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As I did not read the whole comments, I'm just saying my opinions on the OP post:
Mules: Your change does nothing. Changing mules around won't get what you are looking for. I can however get a bit onboard with a change to the mule as compared to inject/chrono, mule-ing is a lot easier(but comes at a cost, inject larva/chrono are far far better if used well). Put a CD on the mule(so you can only throw 1 down every '50 energy regen worth of time' ) or lower max energy.
Supply depots: This idea leaves me baffled. There's a reason why the depots work like they work, since every terran unit is ranged and for it's cost very weak in a straight up fight. The change from sc1 to sc2 I'd say is mostly because the rax got an addon and is therefor less mobile.
Bunker: I'm not against trying things around with it. Personally I think it is fine, but I can see logical anger from zerg when a terran places a bunker at the natural to stall the expo.
SCVs: I'd also like to be able to kill drones or probes easily while building... There is a lot of randomness with the whole SCV building process. I'm sure you can only see the bad parts for you, but I can assure you, the SCVs random pathing has raped me plenty of times, asking him to be always at a "please a**f**k me" position is a bit...
Medivacs: Personally I'd say they are pretty weak if anything, especially considering the cost. Their energy regen rate isn't that great, especially after a storms/FGs they will run dry very fast. In the early midgame they do really well I won't deny that, but as the game progresses they become worse and worse. The staple of the medivac is their dropship. I'd say drops in general are very underused and agree they can be devastating. Both the other races have them(a better argument would be that loading/unloading should be research, which I would have no real opinion on)..
Thor/Viking: I'd not think changing the thor to without splash and higher dmg would be bad. That being said, you are saying you want changes to weed out the bad terran but seems like weeding out bad zerg doesn't get to close to you :/. Thor 'sucks'(for it's cost) without help if the zerg has decent/good muta control. The splash only really makes the zerg not patrol too closely to the terran base, turrets, scvs(repairing) and/or marines along with the thor should be the reason not to attack it.
Changing the viking I don't know about. Making it research to go from 6 to 9 range might be an option or something. I mean there are 2 things the viking is good at, harassing(via landing/OL sniping) and their long range. I wouldn't mind blizzard testing some things around with the viking, but seeing it's the staple AtA I'd hope they'd take small steppes.
Marauder: I'm just against this idea. While this upgrade can be strong, mostly catching straggler/enemy who overextends himself, it's imo in no way OP.
I mean I'm obviously biased being terran, but your post feels like it's missing a lot of the reasoning behind why terran works like it does.
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On August 04 2010 09:51 MorroW wrote:
i talked to strelok today and he says the korean zergs he played against play really solid and really safe. they are by far better than all the foreigner zergs and that won 50% of the time vs him i believe, and this goes for the non-progamer zergs too.
and strelok is not a noob, he wins so many zergs in foreigner scene right now. i did not play the korean zergs but i suppose that if this is true then yes, our zergs are just that much worse than us in skill. this is most likely the case because if zerg was having this gigantic issue all over the world since beta phase 2 started then i dont see why the hell not blizzard would patch things up
also talked to artosis today, he basically agrees and confirms with what was said between idra and how i read his post.
early game is definetly the way to look at it right now and almost every single zerg ive talked to agrees with this, just because of the arsenal of builds terran can do and the few response-based builds a zerg can do where he can basically give up mapcontrol or fall behind economically where as terran can choose econ and harass (mapcontrol) or simply econ (no mapcontrol but ridiculous econ) or simply timing attacks (mapcontrol and potential to win early game).
so terran can put on alot of pressure and should naturally fall behind if he doesnt do damage but the way that the game works is that zerg must defend it by stop making drones and start making queen ling roach spores spines etc that if u just put on this pressure while expanding u will not fall behind even if u dont do alot of damage just because of all the forcing
like ive been doing this 1banshee into exp build, artosis just says ok i will need 4 queen to be safe now and get overseer aswell because zerg has no idea how many banshee or how much u will commit to this. so he can take a huge risk and stay decent and lose if i go allin banshee or he can fall behind because my expo isnt that much later at all.
talked to haypro a little about this too, he think open tech is so strong because zerg must be on defensive mode and respond and then if terran just simply expands zerg has no say and its really hard for zerg to scout. so strong because it makes zerg in the dark and really, 1 banshee give u entire mapcontrol before mutalisk so u can expand with almost no units because how is zerg gonna know u expand, and is he willing to fight uphill to kill terrans expo with 2 banshee killing him. same time this banshee force so much out of zerg like i said before that u dont even have to kill drones to make the banshee pay for itself. later on u can just chunk it into ur ball unlike lets say wraith in sc1
Your comments about opening tech are absolutely correct. It's why I now open ignitor hellions every single TvZ. I don't care if it's scouted or anything. It's a safe build, puts on pressure, denies scouting, and can transition to anything. I usually expand off it really early with 1 gas then throw down 3+ rax and move to marine/tank/hellion + starport support.
The problem is that zerg has little way of knowing if you're going mech or transitioning, how many hellions you're making. You can sac some lords and position them cutely but that's not going to get you enough info usually. This usually means I catch zergs with their pants down with my midgame push because it's just something they didn't expect.
The issue is that zergs don't have a universal BO they can follow vs any opening like 2/3 hatch muta or 2/3 hatch hydra/lurker. There's so many things you have to do different and it's more like playing BW TvP where you have to prepare for everything unless you get lucky and scout something.
I think the 2 things that muck up ZvT early/earlymid game are reapers and turrets. Reapers can literally bypass simcities and good defense plans and just win the game if you didn't prepare right. 6 speedreapers? You don't have speedlings out? Your pool just died you lost the game. You went FE and they went 2 rax speed reaper? Good luck holding onto that hatchery.
The other problem is the turret. Turrets are too strong vs mutas, build too fast, and make it so you don't even need a massive AA investment unit-wise to survive vs muta harass. 1 thor and 4 turrets can secure a base vs 10 mutas easily. Turrets need a nerfing as I've suggested many times (and have others as well.)
You'll see zergs be able to stick to 1 solid gameplan if reapers weren't as much of an issue, and if mutas actually could do more damage to sloppy terrans.
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On August 04 2010 10:36 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 09:51 MorroW wrote:
i talked to strelok today and he says the korean zergs he played against play really solid and really safe. they are by far better than all the foreigner zergs and that won 50% of the time vs him i believe, and this goes for the non-progamer zergs too.
and strelok is not a noob, he wins so many zergs in foreigner scene right now. i did not play the korean zergs but i suppose that if this is true then yes, our zergs are just that much worse than us in skill. this is most likely the case because if zerg was having this gigantic issue all over the world since beta phase 2 started then i dont see why the hell not blizzard would patch things up
also talked to artosis today, he basically agrees and confirms with what was said between idra and how i read his post.
early game is definetly the way to look at it right now and almost every single zerg ive talked to agrees with this, just because of the arsenal of builds terran can do and the few response-based builds a zerg can do where he can basically give up mapcontrol or fall behind economically where as terran can choose econ and harass (mapcontrol) or simply econ (no mapcontrol but ridiculous econ) or simply timing attacks (mapcontrol and potential to win early game).
so terran can put on alot of pressure and should naturally fall behind if he doesnt do damage but the way that the game works is that zerg must defend it by stop making drones and start making queen ling roach spores spines etc that if u just put on this pressure while expanding u will not fall behind even if u dont do alot of damage just because of all the forcing
like ive been doing this 1banshee into exp build, artosis just says ok i will need 4 queen to be safe now and get overseer aswell because zerg has no idea how many banshee or how much u will commit to this. so he can take a huge risk and stay decent and lose if i go allin banshee or he can fall behind because my expo isnt that much later at all.
talked to haypro a little about this too, he think open tech is so strong because zerg must be on defensive mode and respond and then if terran just simply expands zerg has no say and its really hard for zerg to scout. so strong because it makes zerg in the dark and really, 1 banshee give u entire mapcontrol before mutalisk so u can expand with almost no units because how is zerg gonna know u expand, and is he willing to fight uphill to kill terrans expo with 2 banshee killing him. same time this banshee force so much out of zerg like i said before that u dont even have to kill drones to make the banshee pay for itself. later on u can just chunk it into ur ball unlike lets say wraith in sc1 Your comments about opening tech are absolutely correct. It's why I now open ignitor hellions every single TvZ. I don't care if it's scouted or anything. It's a safe build, puts on pressure, denies scouting, and can transition to anything. I usually expand off it really early with 1 gas then throw down 3+ rax and move to marine/tank/hellion + starport support. The problem is that zerg has little way of knowing if you're going mech or transitioning, how many hellions you're making. You can sac some lords and position them cutely but that's not going to get you enough info usually. This usually means I catch zergs with their pants down with my midgame push because it's just something they didn't expect. The issue is that zergs don't have a universal BO they can follow vs any opening like 2/3 hatch muta or 2/3 hatch hydra/lurker. There's so many things you have to do different and it's more like playing BW TvP where you have to prepare for everything unless you get lucky and scout something. I think the 2 things that muck up ZvT early/earlymid game are reapers and turrets. Reapers can literally bypass simcities and good defense plans and just win the game if you didn't prepare right. 6 speedreapers? You don't have speedlings out? Your pool just died you lost the game. You went FE and they went 2 rax speed reaper? Good luck holding onto that hatchery. The other problem is the turret. Turrets are too strong vs mutas, build too fast, and make it so you don't even need a massive AA investment unit-wise to survive vs muta harass. 1 thor and 4 turrets can secure a base vs 10 mutas easily. Turrets need a nerfing as I've suggested many times (and have others as well.) You'll see zergs be able to stick to 1 solid gameplan if reapers weren't as much of an issue, and if mutas actually could do more damage to sloppy terrans.
If you were a lady I would marry you. Finally a terran that agrees something is rotten <3
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On August 04 2010 07:04 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:On August 04 2010 06:31 hyouro wrote:On August 04 2010 06:22 PanzerKing wrote:On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue . Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was. And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg. You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player? Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup." Can you please just keep quiet with the 173173 tournament...IT IS FUCKING OLD AS HELL. On to another thing that annoys me, KOTB was played just after phase 2 started. Which means all of them were rusty since they haven't played for the entire break. Now besides that fact, 1 tournament doesn't mean shit anyways. Please take a look at all the cups that has been played recently. I think you can make something out of that instead of a single tournament. Or do you have another flawed opinion about this? You're making excuses instead of contesting the main point. Z continue to win tournaments played at the highest level of skill. Come show me some evidence that T dominates Z at the highest level of skill, all else equal, and you'll have a coherent argument. Otherwise, the problem is just bad Zerg players who don't want to admit it. Recent tournaments (from phase 2 onwards): IEM qualifyer - Won by Silver (Terran), who 2-0'd Idra along the way. IOL LAN - Top 4 all Terran (Sjow, Morrow, Jinro, Merz). Craftcup #10 - 6 Terran in the top 8, won by Strelok (T) over Jimpo (T) in the final. GosuCoaching #6 - Won by Drewbie (T), with Silver (T) 3rd/4th. Go4SC2 #25 - 2 Terran in the top 3 (Cloud 1st/2nd, final hasn't been played yet afaik, Tarson 3rd). Go4SC2 #24 - 2 Terran in the top 3 (Salens 2nd, Lucifron 3rd). Go4SC2 #23 - Strelok (T) 1st, Goody (T) 4th. Go4SC2 #22 - Morrow (T) 1st, And3ad (T) 2nd. Zotac #16 - 3 Terran in the top 4, Demuslim (T) over Jimpo (T) in the final. WTA #1 - ThesTc (T) 1st, Hannibal (T) 3rd. Chinese Domination Challenge - Won by Loner (T), without dropping a map. KOTB - QXC (T) and IntoTheRainbow (T) 3rd/4th. The only tournaments since phase 2 I can recall that weren't won by Terran were Go4SC2 #24, which had 2 Terran in the top 3 and KOTB, which had 2 Terran in the top 4. It's not as if there are just 1 or 2 supremely skilled Terrans dominating these tournaments either, there have been dozens of different T players progressing to the latter stages of competitions recently. Just look at the GosuGamer rankings, which are based on recent results and have 23 Terran in the top 40, compared to 9 Protoss and 8 Zerg.
Someone just got told.
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I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 11:20 kidcrash wrote:
I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant).
You realize that these could affect PvZ just as drastically as any Terran nerfs might affect TvP?
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On August 04 2010 11:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 11:20 kidcrash wrote:
I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant). You realize that these could affect PvZ just as drastically as any Terran nerfs might affect TvP?
Good, zerg needs all the help that they can get right now. I'm going to add #5 to my list and that would be to increase neural parasite to 25 second duration.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 11:27 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 11:23 TheYango wrote:On August 04 2010 11:20 kidcrash wrote:
I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant). You realize that these could affect PvZ just as drastically as any Terran nerfs might affect TvP? Good, zerg needs all the help that they can get right now. I'm going to add #5 to my list and that would be to increase neural parasite to 25 second duration.
I was under the impression that at high levels, PvZ is considered to be the most balanced matchup.
Though I do agree that neural duration should be lengthened. I don't understand why they dropped it to 12 seconds in the first place.
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On August 04 2010 11:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 11:27 kidcrash wrote:On August 04 2010 11:23 TheYango wrote:On August 04 2010 11:20 kidcrash wrote:
I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant). You realize that these could affect PvZ just as drastically as any Terran nerfs might affect TvP? Good, zerg needs all the help that they can get right now. I'm going to add #5 to my list and that would be to increase neural parasite to 25 second duration. I was under the impression that at high levels, PvZ is considered to be the most balanced matchup. Though I do agree that neural duration should be lengthened. I don't understand why they dropped it to 12 seconds in the first place.
Hmm, didn't that list that was just released with the top 100 ,1k and 5k ladder rankings show zerg behind both races in every group? The only change I suggested that would have a significant impact on ZvP would be the roach change. Remember I chose to sacrifice 25 HP to bring back 1 supply roaches. To me, this seems like fair compensation.
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On August 04 2010 11:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 11:27 kidcrash wrote:On August 04 2010 11:23 TheYango wrote:On August 04 2010 11:20 kidcrash wrote:
I think that the issue is less of terran being too strong but more that zerg is too weak. Throwing too many nerfs at terran might ruin TvP if not carefully thought out. Here are my balance suggestions:
1. Give infestors an upgrade for increased energy regeneration while burrowed. The upgrade could either be at lair tech or hive tech depending on how fast the regeneration was. When you move your infestor while burrowed, it will activate a cool down on the ability which ends when your infestor becomes stationary again.
2. Increase the attack speed increase for zergling adrenaline glands upgrade from a 20% increase to a 25% increase.
3. Not a zerg buff but I strongly think that viking range needs a nerf. I was thinking drop the range down from 9 to 7 and then add an upgrade in either the fusion core or the starport tech lab for +2 range. This would make mutalisk harass more effective. The upgrade should cost 150/150.
4. Change roach supply from 2 back to 1 and lower their HP from 145 to 120. To compensate with the drop in roach HP, marauder Hp should be dropped to 100 (to lessen their overlapping role with the tank) and concussive shells should be brought back to 100/100 cost (because 50 minerals for an upgrade is almost insignificant). You realize that these could affect PvZ just as drastically as any Terran nerfs might affect TvP? Good, zerg needs all the help that they can get right now. I'm going to add #5 to my list and that would be to increase neural parasite to 25 second duration. I was under the impression that at high levels, PvZ is considered to be the most balanced matchup. Though I do agree that neural duration should be lengthened. I don't understand why they dropped it to 12 seconds in the first place. You have top Zergs, like F91, saying that PvZ is Zerg-favored. Other than a couple pretty deadly pushes, Protoss has it really tough in the match up.
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Yeah I wouldn't want to fuck around with pvz either, I think that matchup is pretty damn close to perfect.
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EPT
