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On July 13 2010 10:37 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 09:13 darmousseh wrote:
This is missing the most important point though. Blizzard will be reseting rankings often. In wow they do it like every 6-9 months. That's retarded. The whole point of ELO is that you don't need to reset, ever. I'd only advocate a global reset after each expansion is launched. Players should be free to self-reset as they see fit.
It's gonna reset if you like it or not periodically. If it's anything like WoW is you'll probably keep your MMR if you start a fresh climb within a season e.g. you climb to 1795 in 2v2 and your partner quits so you start a fresh team.
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WEll thats strange, I like the ladder system now, that chan ged my whole vies of the divisions. I guess if you are #25 no matter how many divisions there are u are in top 25, like the first comment said. Thx for something to read I'm really bored and this just made my day.
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Well the worst part isnt divisions, its that our hidden matchmaking ranking isnt shown, and instead some fake idiot number is used to rank us in divisions. WHo can take something so arbitrary and care about it?
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The thread title should be renamed:
Why the division system is better (or worse) for my e-penis.
For all intent and purposes, no1 here has defined what 'better' means, and looks as if most people are arguing for the e-penis stakes.
For me, as long as I get matched up with other people of similar skill or better, I'm happy as! Who cares if the other guy's ranked 20th 300 pt diamond or 3rd 500 pt platnium, or what I'm ranked within my division which I don't play against much anyway. My opponents pool is the whole server, my visible rating or ranking is irrelevant. So far the internal matching seems to be working as my win/loss ratio is taking a hit lately. Excellent.
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Ill admit I didn't fully read the OP but only skimmed it.
The OP makes an assumption that each division will be populated with a random sample of the total population of the league. Unless I misunderstand the way in which SC2 divisions work, this isn't true. Divisions are created and filled only when needed, which means newer players will be placed in new divisions with only newer players. Obviously these newer divisions will be much easier to climb in ranking than the older ones.
Since divisions are not evenly distributed, you can't estimate your percentage ranking. Rank #5 of a newer division will not even be close to rank #5 of the oldest division.
Also any sort of ELO rating is only an estimation of skill. Your rating never evens out, but rather constantly hovers around a certain point going up and down (assuming many games played). So even if these divisions were evenly distributed estimating your ranking only gets fuzzier as you are now taking an estimation of an estimation.
Even without these factors another major problem is top players won't know how they compare to each other. The top 1% of the diamond league will include a lot of people with varying skill levels.
There really is just no need for this division system, it's completely pointless.
I don't understand why people think that casual or bad SC2 players will also be stupid. I'm sure they can figure out that being ranked #27 in some random division of silver league means absolutely nothing. In fact it can be detrimental to newer players as it helps hide any sort of progress you may make. If I'm a casual player how much did I really improve going from rank #2 bronze of an old division to rank #45 silver of a new division?
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The problem is simply that the division system tops out too low for competitive people here at TL. Players want to be able to distinguish themselves further than the top few % of the top 10-15%. Hopefully the end of season tournament/playoff mode or whatever will address that issue.
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A really interesting point that should be pointed out once more is that this system is based on a lot of data. The more data it gets, the more accurate it will be.
Here are some examples:
A player is placed into gold with placement matches being 4-1. From his skill and experience, he's playing a plat/diamond level - tough he prefers custom games. With more games the system can validate more data and make a more reliable decision what your league should be. I think many people are complaining being placed too low with like 20 games while other players offer the system data of around 80 games or more.
The top example in another position - someone is a mass gamer and offers the data to the system. The system notices that his rating is increasing drastically so the matchmaking chooses platinum players (he's still in gold). The rating keeps climbing so he gets 5 diamond players and went 3-2. The system notices that the rating is no longer climbing and promotes the player isntantly into diamond.
If someone disconnects a lot the game will count as a loss, so if his placement matches direct him to silver, it is just logical that the system needs a few games before promoting you correctly. This might be more than 30 games if you are actually a platinum player since you have to go through 2 leagues of comparison for the system.
I agree the system has still its flaws which is directed to the beta status the game is in. It doesnt mean necessarily that the system is still under construction but the players are testing. Many people test units in custom games or try the different game modes. Some people are rather inactive but due to the comparable low player count there are just not enough people to replace the divisions properly.
About the rating - Issorlol makes an interesting point about that "top 1% of gold league" thing. I totally agree on that (and to be frank I never thought of it like that). Having a global ranking would just be beneficial for the top 100 or even top1000 players. It might be awesome for those to say I'm in the top 20 of 12390123901290 instead of I'm someone placed #1 in the diamond league. But for those who are the average player lurking around gold level it is not very interesting to know that you are ranked 79851235th. For me it is much more useful to know that my last 100 games have prooven that I am for instance in the top 20 of my platinum league and that I still need to improve to qualify into diamond leagues rather than if I'm improving I'll be in the top 7000 instead of 7500.
However I'd love to see the servers Top 100 with qualifikation tournaments of the top X of each diamodn divison like it looked in the early days of beta. But i think that'll be a content for way later patches (after LAN and chat channels) 
EDIT:
And just one sidenote: Its just numbers people, what your skill is right now matters and what you are willing to do to improve - nothing else.
However the matchmaking offers a VERY comfortable way to just jump in and play some games with players roughly about your level. For me not having much time to play on working days, this is truly a gift if I'm on my own.
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The answer is of course that no amount of time or skil will adjust the ratings to be correct. The matchmaking will always make you win 50% of the time once the system discovers your real score which only takes about 10 games using glick2. Notice that points you gain are not based on the opponents points, but on the real hidden ranking. So in a single day, you will average 0 points. Now add in the fact that sometimes when you win you get double points. On every day, you will gain an average of exactly how many bonus points you can earn in a day. Since matchmaking is 50% for the best in each division and for th worst. On average, all players in the same rank will have almost identical points even if one is far superior. The only exception is the top 1% and bottom 1% who will have difficulty finding even matches. This is why you are grouped based on when you got promoted and why they will have to reset often.
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basically the op is correct in an ideal situation with infinite time for the game to settle, meaning that it is totally freaking awful in the context of a beta for us to understand anything.
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Still not a fan of the whole division system. Wish they would rework it.
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I agree with you that the division system is a lot better than people may think. But I highly disagree with being 1 is equal to being in the top 1%. Im going to try to explain why 
When SC2 launch. Say everyone ends up in gold. But the "extreme players", the 1% will rise and get promoted to diamond. What happens now? They all end up in same leagues.
Just because they are better than the average diamond player they will probably get promoted first. Also if you are playing on that level you will probably play like mad the first days. So the odds of not getting promoted are very slim.
If you look at the other thread where HuK Idra WhiteRa GerrardPrime and Strelock all are in same division. This just confirms what I just said.
Myself I couldnt play when EU got up.. So I had to wait until the day after. As a result, when I got a promotion I got into a new league. When I logged of yesterday I was at about 450 rating and second place was at 420. When I look over to those "elite leagues" my 450 rating is barley into top 10... While I now have a solid #1..
So.. to make it short. Unless they shuffle players in the divisions your argument is flawed 
Edit: Typo
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On July 13 2010 17:24 xzidez wrote:I agree with you that the division system is a lot better than people may think. But I highly disagree with being 1 is equal to being in the top 1%. Im going to try to explain why When SC2 launch. Say everyone ends up in gold. But the "extreme players" say the 1% will highly rise and get promoted to diamond. What happens now? They all end up in same leagues. Just because they are better than the average diamond player they will probably get promoted first. Also if you are playing on that level you will probably play like mad the first days. So the odds of not getting promoted are very slim. If you look at the other thread where HuK Idra WhiteRa GerrardPrime and strelock all is in same division. This just confirms what I just said. Myself I couldnt play when EU got up.. So I had to wait until the day after. As a result, when I got a promotion I got into a craptastic league. When I logged of yesterday I was at about 450 rating and second place was at 420. When I look over to those "elite leagues" my 450 rating is barley into top 10... While I now have a solid #1.. So.. To make it short. Unless they shuffle players in the divisions your argument is flawed
I feel like if you read the thread you'd see he's already said a ton of times it doesn't apply to the extreme players... and everyone else has already said it too :-/
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On July 13 2010 05:33 VanGarde wrote:
It is all relative, if you are ranked anywhere between rank 100 in Bronze and rank 3 in diamond the division system is perfect and for any competitive player it should be all the comparative data you need to judge your relative skill.
But if you are rank 1-5 in diamond then the system is useless. Because then you are among the top 1% of the people playing the game. I say 1-5 instead of just rank 1 because the top five in division A might all be better than the first player in division B so there is some grayzone but even if it is precise.
No matter what though as soon as you are ranked 1 in your division then you can't actually climb any further. If there are 500 divisions then you will have to settle with being one of the top five hundred players on your region. But that number is just retarded for anyone who plays competitive games. For example, in League of Legends the top 300 players are listed on the forums each month. The lowest positions is higher than what you can assume being ranked 1 in a diamond division.
But since the division system will be great for 99.9% of people playing then all that is needed is some slight additions to give the top 500 players a chance to see if they are in fact the fifth best player or the five hundredth.
Easiest possible solution to implement would just be that once you reach fifth or higher in diamond, your global rank will appear next to your name as well, based on comparing elo between all top 5 players in all regions. If you are ranked lower than fifth then you have little reason to see your global rank because you are not even topping your own local division.
Good post
With this addition I'd be fully content with the current system, just slap it on anyone top 1000 in a region and possibly to top 5-10 diamond in a division as well. Having this global/regional rank in a separate list along with the number in your profile would be more than enough e-peen for anyone.
I like how a pretty well thought out OP like this one could help the nay-sayers get some perspective instead of just focusing on "omfg what is my global rank?".
This system is much easier to grasp ("confusing" promotions/demotions aside, but if they'd just make sure they gave promotions/demotions after a win/loss everyone would be blizzfully unaware)
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For people who care about stats, the current division system clearly sucks. For people who care about the skill matchmaking in games, the system works great. Right now I am in rank 5 diamond, and I can somehow feel the skill gap if I compare it to the first few games in Diamond. This is exactly what I want and it really improves my game.
The current division system is just Blizz's way of bringing the carrot a little closer to you. However, a global ranking would not hurt. Plus - I believe once the tournaments come into play, it'll make sense.
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On July 13 2010 17:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 17:24 xzidez wrote:I agree with you that the division system is a lot better than people may think. But I highly disagree with being 1 is equal to being in the top 1%. Im going to try to explain why When SC2 launch. Say everyone ends up in gold. But the "extreme players" say the 1% will highly rise and get promoted to diamond. What happens now? They all end up in same leagues. Just because they are better than the average diamond player they will probably get promoted first. Also if you are playing on that level you will probably play like mad the first days. So the odds of not getting promoted are very slim. If you look at the other thread where HuK Idra WhiteRa GerrardPrime and strelock all is in same division. This just confirms what I just said. Myself I couldnt play when EU got up.. So I had to wait until the day after. As a result, when I got a promotion I got into a craptastic league. When I logged of yesterday I was at about 450 rating and second place was at 420. When I look over to those "elite leagues" my 450 rating is barley into top 10... While I now have a solid #1.. So.. To make it short. Unless they shuffle players in the divisions your argument is flawed I feel like if you read the thread you'd see he's already said a ton of times it doesn't apply to the extreme players... and everyone else has already said it too :-/
Yes but the thing is here. The extreme players are in Diamond league. So this doesnt apply at all to diamond league if you are in the top... And in the other leagues I dont think people care that much about where they are..
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OP can you post some data on how you came to this conclusion? Did you do any statistical tests on whether or not, with some % of confidence that, for example, a #2 division player will be within a band of ranking in the overall absolute rankings?
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You have not convinced me that it is better than the war3 roc ladder. In that ladder, level = skill, and you knew exactly where you were 100%. No bullshit necessary.
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On July 13 2010 13:40 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 10:37 0mar wrote:On July 13 2010 09:13 darmousseh wrote:
This is missing the most important point though. Blizzard will be reseting rankings often. In wow they do it like every 6-9 months. That's retarded. The whole point of ELO is that you don't need to reset, ever. I'd only advocate a global reset after each expansion is launched. Players should be free to self-reset as they see fit. Not cool when people are able to dominate early and sit at the top and never play though. Also the ladder becomes stale when this happens. Think about Iccup and how it reset every 3 months - then imagine the seasons resetting only half as much or even a third.
We had this format in Warcraft 3 for the longest time without that problem (Xp decay and losses = lots of xp deduction at high level) and they only had to change up the Matchmaking system because of constant smurfign which is impossible in SC2.
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So basicly you are just saying on * pages that the system is good because of percentile? And not a single word about hidden rating which is the main factor why people play much better or worse players and why they get huge points for wins and few for losses?
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I thought blizzard said that the leagues get reset after certain periods and you have to replace for the next "season" so to speak.
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EPT
