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On June 18 2010 11:31 xtfftc wrote:
Also, if you are casting from a replay, there is no reason not to jump backwards. The viewers want to see the full game, not just a limited portion of it.
+1. If any caster reads this, I find this a very important point. Blizz gave you the tools to go back if you've missed something, you can even pause (not for too much) to explain something before a battle takes place or something, use these tools. Me as a viewer don't mind the caster taking the game back so that I can see a key thing happening.
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I'd like to thank the OP for taking time to provide a well thought-out opinion and one I would recommend every caster read, regardless of how good or bad they believe themselves to be.
Folks are always going to differ on what they believe the best style of commentary to be. Some even go as far as to exist in a binary frame of mind, ie. this style of commentary is good, all others are bad because they are not this one. I've had people write paragraphs on how Starcraft 2 is not a soccer game and it is disrespectful to ESPORTS to treat it like one and others claim my style of commentary is the only valid one. They are both wrong.
I think we're entering a potentially great era of eSports broadcasting. Several casters are on the verge of going pro at which point they will have better equipment, proper technical and marketing support and can focus more on producing regular, high quality content. As it stands, the atmosphere between casters is competitive but in a friendly manner, free of drama and nonsense (for the time being).
On the subject of jargon, since that seems to be being discussed quite a bit, it's a tricky subject. There's an awful lot more jargon in SC2 than say soccer, because let's be honest, SC2 is a more complex game. There are times when it's best to say M+M+M rather than Marines, Marauders and Medivacs + an explanation of why they go well together. There comes a point I suppose where a certain baseline of knowledge has to be assumed from the viewer, but where that line is will be in a state of flux for some time. If I say the Terran is using Jessica's Build, yet provide no context or explanation for that, some of my audience will know what I'm talking about and the rest will be bewildered, but if Day[9] said that, I'd imagine more of his audience would know what he's talking about. His demographic is more experienced and should be treated as such.
Turning to the matter of negativity towards the players. The danger is making the wrong call, particularly in a live match where you don't know the outcome. It's not exactly good to look like a complete fool when your perceived bad play was actually an innovative strat or simply something you, in your limited experience, had never seen before. Hell I remember my very first cast, having never played BW and never seen the extractor trick. How stupid do I feel now? As the game evolves, so do strategies and while it might be tempting to rag on a player for something you think they've done wrong, it should always be done in cautious and more importantly, respectful manner. These guys are playing for your entertainment and in the case of some of us, we're making money off of their backs, the least you can do is not humiliate them in front of your audience. Negativity should be tempered by a constructive attitude and politeness, nothing worse than a bad mannered caster.
One final thing I will say. I may not be the most experienced caster, but I've been doing radio, both online and terrestrial for a decade, allow me to offer one piece of advice. Only ever listen to fans that have bad things to say about you. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of believing everything the sycophants tell you. You should always assume you can do better and you should always assume that any regular viewer who says something bad about one of your casts is doing so because they care. Learn from them, don't take it personally and don't be afraid to beat yourself up over a mistake, that will hopefully prevent you from making it a second time.
Peace, love and all that other hippy crap to my fellow casters and best of luck.
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1. I can't watch any casts that use permanent health bars. They just ruin the experience, at least for me. Please, please, please only use them when absolutely needed - turning them on for the whole duration of battles is also a no-no, since some of us want to see the actual units fighting, not an ugly mess of colored bars vs another ugly mess of colored bars. It could help the players to micro better, but it is of no use for the viewer. If after the battle we see 10 red stalkers, we can be impressed without ruining the battle experience.
2. Those of us with motion sickness know that it's a lot more comfortable to follow your own movements than to follow someone else's movements. If I am driving, I never get carsick, but if I'm a passenger, it's 50/50. It's the same with controlling the camera when casting - if I'm playing a game I can scroll around the base and jump from screen to screen, no problem - but if a caster does that, it's incredibly distracting and tiring. FPVods are better for some reason (probably because the movement is a lot more ordered), but watching a cast with random scrolling around and jumping aimlessly from screen to screen is super nauseating.
3. Thanks for the great casts!
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Agree with overuse of blunder. :/ HATE that word
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Casters shouldn't also say things like "Race1vRace2 is the pinacle of Starcraft". 
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On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote:
I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility.
Of course this is also true for screen movement.
The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice.
Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
Good points. But most Korean casts got 2 observers + 3 commentators. Doing everything yourself is really hard, of course some parts will lack.
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On June 18 2010 11:31 xtfftc wrote:
Also, you need to be careful with balancing the background information you give so that experienced players/viewers will not get bored, while newbies will be able to keep up with what is going on. How many times do we need to hear about Zerg's expansion pattern on Metalopolis? You have all said it sooo many times.
I'd like to note that's asking for the impossible. If you've found your way to this site, odds are you already belong to the top 25% of players, if not an even smaller percentage. Meanwhile, it's impossible for casters to know who's listening. That is not to say there's no target audience, oh their definitely is and almost each caster has his own target audience. There is however no way to know if the audience that's listening to you on thursday also listened to you on tuesday. If you tune in to a stream regularly, you're going to hear repetition. It's unavoidable because the crucial elements of a matchup or map just don't change that often. So if I see a PvZ on metalopolis on thursday, odds are I'm going to have the same analysis (or believe or understanding, whatever you want to fit there) as on tuesday.
So far I think a lot of the feedback is great, but I really feel that this needed to be pointed out. I wholeheartedly agree in large with the rest of the original post.
That said, because I actually want to contribute some what. An invaluable resource for casters is http://www.theshoutcaster.co.uk/site/?page_id=11
Even if you're not planning on being a commentator, this might enlighten you why so many casters have such a different feel.
On June 18 2010 12:57 RyanS wrote:
Talking about "what I like to do"
Interjecting and stating, "On this map I like to make ____ and do ____ with them." It seems like the caster is trying to dismiss the player's strategy as bad/inferior to what they like to do. If it is an educational audio that is maybe acceptable, but during a live tournament game it really isn't needed. It seems a bit disrespectful to make the cast about yourself instead of giving insight as to why the player in game is doing something.
Isn't it the other way around? Stating what you like to do is openly acknowledging that a player might know better than you. As a commentator, part of your task is being critical of a player, so if you spot something that's off, the best way to make a note of it is suggesting an alternative. As I've said quite a lot of times, I never forget that most of all the players in high level invite tournaments would rock my world in a 1v1. Saying "I don't really like that play, what I'd prefer to do here is.." is a rather polite way of putting it.
On June 18 2010 13:07 McCain wrote:
It may have something to do with the 3-commentator setup, though, which Korea uses extensively and the West uses... never.
3 commentator setup doesn't work online, people just end up yelling over one another. For events, when you can actually make eye-contact, it works much better.
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote:Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
Yet TotalBiscuit actually making an insightful comment is one of the 12 signs the end of times is near. <3 Yes I see you up there TB!
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I have to really appreciate threads like this. With the hiatus of beta I started doing commentary to get my fix and have found it to be enjoyable. Luckily some of my friends are sending me their replays so I am breaking away from the "I am doing this/I would do this" stage of the early caster. But back on topic, threads like this are very helpful for the few of us that are starting out now and actually trying to get better, both as players and commentators. So, as I appreciate feedback, please check out my YouTube Channel so I can get better at what I do for you and your entertainment.
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I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are) it makes me worried. If you treat starcraft like the only people who care about it are your five nerdy friends who have LAN parties together, well, self-fulfilling prophecy. People tune in to an event for the first time, hear you speaking like a high school geek, and dismiss the whole thing as a big circle-jerk for people who have nothing going on in their lives. If you seriously want people to think of the game as a highly skilled sport worthy of being broadcast on television with live commentary, you need to treat it like it is.
I don't care how you speak in your normal life, if you want to spout off internet memes to your mom, the barista at starbucks, or your defense attorney, that's your business. When you pick up a mic, you're on some small scale representing the starcraft community, and you should consider what you sound like to people who are more interested in spectator sports than 4chan. Now, that doesn't mean be serious 100% of the time. By all means, make dirty jokes, use silly analogies that go on way too long, make fun of the tendencies of famous players, and so forth. That's flavour. Just say it with normal words that people who aren't immersed in nerd culture use.
I think the best example for all of us who don't speak Korean to emulate is poker. Poker as a subculture is full of bastardized argot and poker forums look like any other internet forum, full of silly abbreviations and abstract emoticons. Poker as a live sporting event is not. You're never going to hear someone on ESPN call a poker player a "LAGtard" or say "VNH" when a player wins a big pot. They use professional, practiced diction. And guess what, in five years it went from being an underground culture existing only in dingy cardrooms to being an international industry worth millions with players who are household names, and people who had never picked up a deck of cards in their life flying to vegas to get in on the action. The size of poker events went from 6 tables to hundreds nearly overnight. If you are a starcraft commentator, believe this can happen for us and act like it already has.
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On June 18 2010 20:24 baytripper wrote:
I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are)
I would request that anyone who uses the phrase 'epic fail' throws themselves down a well, tbh.
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On June 18 2010 20:24 baytripper wrote:
I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are) it makes me worried. If you treat starcraft like the only people who care about it are your five nerdy friends who have LAN parties together, well, self-fulfilling prophecy. People tune in to an event for the first time, hear you speaking like a high school geek, and dismiss the whole thing as a big circle-jerk for people who have nothing going on in their lives. If you seriously want people to think of the game as a highly skilled sport worthy of being broadcast on television with live commentary, you need to treat it like it is.
Granted, I'm one of the few that can speak from experience, but if I'm casting a televised event, my casting is nothing like when I'm casting a weekly open-to-all tournament. Not that I respect one or the other more, but because I know the audience is very much different. When you're casting an event which won't draw any viewers outside of regulars, by all means I'd encourage casters to take it down a notch, loosen your tie and banter away casually. When you're casting a high profile invite only tournament on the other hand, bring your A-game professionally speaking.
I think the most important note here is to know your audience. Are they there just to have a good time, did they come to just take a break from playing or has this event been on their calendar for the past week.
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On June 18 2010 18:15 XtrEEmMaShEEN3k2 wrote:
One major thing I would like to request from casters: Include a link to the file of the Replay that you're casting. I think we would all gain a tremendous amount more of understanding if we had access to the actual replay file.
That really shouldn't be their responsability or decision. They might be casting but they usually won't be responsible for the tournament.
As sponsoring gets bigger you'll see less and less replays being distributed. A replay doesn't include any of the advertising you did during the cast. You want people hearing you thank Dr. Pepper for donating 5000$ and seeing that Viagra banner if they want to watch your tournament. If a commentator I hired to commentate starts leaking replays because he thinks he's entitled to, I would not hire him again.
If they are both commentating and in charge of whatever video you are watching then sure, they can do whatever they want.
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Talking about "what I like to do"
Interjecting and stating, "On this map I like to make ____ and do ____ with them." It seems like the caster is trying to dismiss the player's strategy as bad/inferior to what they like to do. If it is an educational audio that is maybe acceptable, but during a live tournament game it really isn't needed. It seems a bit disrespectful to make the cast about yourself instead of giving insight as to why the player in game is doing something.
Disagreed. During the build up of initial scvs/probes/drones and during other down-times, I feel like this is appropriate. It's not trying to dismiss or diminish the player's strategy, it helps set the background of the particular match up on the particular map so that the viewers can start thinking about it. I like when casters aren't afraid to speak up about their preferences during play, and their opinions on weak and strong plays in different match ups, and maps as long as they actually bring up some particular play for the viewers to consider and don't just accuse the players' of doing the wrong thing.
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On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote:
I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility.
Of course this is also true for screen movement.
The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice.
Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
This is where most casters fail horribly. You may debate all you like about 'style' or 'tone' but if a cast is making its audience NAUSEOUS then you're doing something very wrong. I play Quake. I don't usually suffer from motion sickness but I had to turn off some of the casts after about 2 mins. Too much jerking around and disjointed camera movements.
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I agree with Ryan's post about saying "its GG any moment now" .. at least be exciting up to the point where that happened, and if the other guy decides to stay and prolong the game, start talking about why he lost and why the other person won instead of robotically asying:
"yeah.. its over. gg anytime now.. i really dont see how he can come back, there's really nothing going for him, his economy is so behind, look at the food count, and with this triple expansion there is no way he'll be back economically, he just has so many units that he won't be able to over come this"
believe it or not, this actually happens way more often than you think. notice how the caster just said the same thing 10 times? not very entertaining or informative since we can clearly see what they are seeing. great opportunity for day9 style analysis if you ever get in this situation.
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I would just like casters to be more honest. Too often they get into the same mode sports announcers do where they only talk about the positive things happening or giving credit where there is none. For example, in basketball when a player obviously fouls another to stop a basket and there is no call they will say "Oh, great block!" Just admit the mistakes, everything doesn't have to be positive. I learn more from casters showing mistakes than from poor play that is passed off as good because they win.
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Calgary25995 Posts
On June 18 2010 13:08 mcneebs wrote:
Tasteless and SDM however, have tremendous synergy. They feed off of one another, fill the "downtime" with anecdotes or theory, but when the action picks up again they both rise to the occasion.
I think it's very unfair to expect people on Skype to work as well as two people in a room together.
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Calgary25995 Posts
I really don't like when casters try to make something out of nothing. A lot of times you just decide to attack, or your units just stop at a position. Not because you are trying some high level feint and this or that, just because you're busy doing other things. It's not a timing attack, it's not a fake or gambit, you're just fucking moving out. Casters these days make players seem like robots that are constantly mathematically monitoring their army composition for the best time to attack.
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Why has there not been any mention of me yet? According to the OP I am the perfect caster! So I think I deserve my 40k subscribers now! ... *looks around* ... *waits* ...
...
I think we all agree that was worth a shot ...
I think my biggest issue is the quality of observing. A lot of casters started out with pro games, having a nice and simple vod in front of you while you sip some brandy and blither into a mic. I personally have always casted from the trenches of replays and livecasts so I have developed this tic of constantly being in 'observer mode' when I'm watching a replay, even when I'm not recording.
I'm guessing most casters will get used to it after a while. And if not. Unsub and watch me instead!
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I dont know many commentators, but i really like Day[9] and Husky (not so much of HD btw o.o)..
Those 2 are great, both understand the game and strategies and the most important aspect to me, they make the game FUN to watch!
I really laugh when I'm watching them talk and stuff...
I dont remember the game exactly, but there's a game where Husky see a probe SLIDING while chase the Drone, and he was in shock! For a moment, he stop watching the game, just to see the Probe "Drifting"! I laughed so hard that day!
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EPT
