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On June 19 2010 18:40 Red_Storm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 18:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 19 2010 14:00 Emon_ wrote:
I'd like to hear a cast from OP. Until then he should be thankful for whatever comes his way. Really now, you might as well as say that Roger Ebert isn't allowed to review any more movies until he's directed some himself. I can't speak for my fellow casters, but I know I'm not offended when somebody takes a little time to try and improve casting in general via constructive criticism. 1 guy constructively crticising is worth more than 1000 sycophants saying you're great. Agreed 100%, whenever a caster starts to become famous in any regard they need to stop taking things so personally as they cannot please everyone, but to work on the criticism without getting offended really distinguishes those that will go far.
Allow me to retort. Someone that decides to cast a game spends a lot of energy on the process. He needs to present himself to the world in a respectable way in a lot of different areas. The content needs to be interesting, the quality of the audio, other technical aspects need to be looked after. The video needs to be uploaded within a reasonable time. Then he needs to have a good sense about the game as well. He's putting it all on the table and showing the world what he's made off.
On the other hand replying to a video, or topic about a caster, takes close to zero effort. "Yeah, I like" or "No I don't" as if it matters what random post you spew out. If you have something to say put some effort into it and present it to the world. Create a topic about a caster and share your view. But you won't - because deep down you don't care. You just type whats inside you without a thought about anything else. And to top it all off - you compare yourself to Roger Ebert.
I take back my original claim and apologize to the OP. He did a great job and I was far too fast in judging him. The post was well written with a lot of detail and suggestions to casters. More posts like this are welcome.
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One thing that I really, really hate is when a caster is obviously getting excited and his voice goes up, then suddenly goes in to whisper mode. Why do that? Just go crazy on that mic, there's no need to tone it down. This is mainly directed at HD.
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On June 24 2010 01:58 Chaoz wrote:
One thing that I really, really hate is when a caster is obviously getting excited and his voice goes up, then suddenly goes in to whisper mode. Why do that? Just go crazy on that mic, there's no need to tone it down. This is mainly directed at HD.
I like that HD always seems cool and collected.
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I just watched the 3rd game of the Tasteless vs. Day9 Showmatch again and noticed that HD confused 4th base with 4th expansion. Don't know if it has been mentioned in here, but 4th base is actually the 3rd expansion^^
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, I know that you all are aware of this, even HD and it was probably just some excitement mistake or something.
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I agree with a lot of the needed feedback in this thread. I think it must be pretty difficult to do an awesome job casting and definitely appreciate all of the hard work the casters have put in to their efforts to help build up excitement around SC2.
With that said, if I had to criticize a caster it would probably be HD. I really love the excitement he brings to the games and he and Husky arrange some really nice matches. One thing that bothers me though is that I find the more I listen to his play-by-play, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of his by the minute analysis.
For example, in one game in the showmatch series between Tasteless and Day9 on Metalopolis, Tasteless decided to take a gamble and lift his CC to a high-yield patch at the center of the map. There exists a narrow, but definite, timing window where a player can take that mineral patch and overwhelm the opponent with marines before they are prepared. Day9 scouted him quickly after that, but HD kept highlighting the resource collection rate tab and how it was slowly peaking over Day9s collection rate and stated that Tasteless was in a "really good position now" or something like that, without mentioning
1) How long Tasteless wasn't mining at all during the transfer
2) How low his worker count was in relation to Day9
3) That Day9 pretty much knew he was all in with marines after scouting him
4) How far behind Tasteless was in getting his Orbital Command or any other tech finished
5) That he hadn't started mining gas
etc, etc.
I don't want to sound like I'm picking on him, but saying a player is in a good position after he is quite clearly not in a good position after being scouted at an awkward time is a little irritating. If this was just a one time occurrence, then I probably wouldn't post about it, but since this thread is here I felt the need to mention this.
If I had one suggestion to HD it would be that he should take a look at some of the threads that analyze the value of taking the gold mineral patches and how they break down some the true collection rates while saturated vs blue mineral patches. In general, I find he overvalues the strategic importance of the gold mineral patches while neglecting more obvious shifts in power that are more apparent to seasoned players.
Nothing personal against HD, I know he is trying to make his cast exciting and hell I will still watch his casts but I think as he plays the game more, his in-game sense will get much better and he'll be less likely to make these types of errors.
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i think it would be important to note the distinction b/w casting in a commentary for a showmatch, tourney, etc. and casting in a daily or analysis. As a specific example, Day[9] does both and it is imperative to see how he varies his casting simply b/c of the situation in which he is placed in.
in the former, where he is casting for a tourney game, he points out interesting details, emphasizes particular tech patterns and predicts what the player[s] may do. However, he does not linger for too long on a particular strategic element or tactic, or focus too heavily on economical benefits of a particular deviation. "Just the broad strokes" w/ a couple of fine touches here and there. This is important in a live [or casted from replay] environment b/c it is supposed to supplement the viewer's thoughts while watching, efficiently explain a significant point and subsequently move on to continued action.
in the latter, during his daily's, which can each be considered ~hour long post-game analysis, it is important for a caster to delve further into the strategies and tactics employed by the players. This could range from displaying the economical benefits of certain moves by bringing up the resource collection rate tab, pausing the video to explain the significance of particular terrain advantage, or to explain the the general patterns of play usually seen in games and how certain plays deviate from the norm and why they are important. That is why the analysis of a 15 minute game could end up taking the better part of half an hour.
it is important to distinguish the two in this discussion b/c each serve a different function. So to say that Day[9] delves too deeply into the "why's" and "how's" generally, would be inaccurate b/c it really depends on the purpose of and the type of cast. Likewise, while we can claim that Husky and HD do not perhaps tend to elaborate on a lot of subtleties of play, keep in mind of the type of casting they are doing, b/c that will usually dictate the level of insight that they will be able to provide.
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Casters make Starcraft better. They can make boring games seem interesting, and when an exciting amazing game happens,their emotion increases the emotion that I feel. Koreans are really the best at this + Show Spoiler +PLAYGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!
Every Starcraft match is a story. And the caster is there to make the story better.
What really gets on my nerves during a commentary is when the caster says something I know not to be true. The most obvious is when a caster doesn't see the 12 Nexus for some reason :O but there are other circumstances. I watching some old GOM matches and no matter how terrible the player was, Tasteless kept hyping up that player. It's ok to say that Jaedong has a 99% chance of crushing Lomo into oblivion.
The most annoying though (as stated before in this thread) is horrible strategic insight. This is unforgivable. Not every 2-Hatch muta is all-in and not every DT-centric strategy is a DT rush. Dropping a DT then expanding is NOT a DT rush!!!
Another thing, DAMN YOU DAY9 I MISS BROOD WAR COULD'T YOU AT LEAST DO A FEW MATCHES OF BW IN THE BETA DOWNTIME YOU BASTARD
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I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
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My main complaint is that they never go to the production tab or go to bases to see what people are doing, and EVERY god damn game some tech comes out and they're like OH MY GOD WHERE DID THAT MOTHERSHIP COME FROM LOL :D
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One thing I hate is that a lot of commentators constantly misspeak. Things get mixed up all the time: colors, players, positions, races, workers, basically everything.
I also see casters get too caught up in the moment and say things that are just plainly wrong. For example, "he only has about six zealots" when 10 are clearly selected on the screen by the caster himself. There was one HDH game (I think it was an HDH game, at least) where they were wondering where a colossus went when about 10 seconds ago it clearly exploded on the screen. This kind of thing really takes away from the experience.
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I have to be honest, I really can't watch anybody but day9 or djwheat because of how inexperienced and just flat out wrong a lot of the other casters are. day9 may over-analyze from time-to-time and i've heard wheat misspeak on more than one occasion, but they are both very entertaining, engaging, and knowledgeable about the game. They cover general areas for anyone who doesn't know much about the game to follow along, and they point out smaller things for people who do.
HD and Husky have done a lot hosting their own tournament with prizes from their own pockets, but, quite frankly, I cannot stand either of them as casters. They don't know what's going on most of the time, misspeak often, and use too many phrases like "epic fail" and "terrible, terrible damage" for me to get any enjoyment out of their casts.
This is just my opinion, but I sincerely hope that future sc2 casters look to day9 and djwheat as role models for how to deliver a good cast. Chill isn't bad, either.
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On June 22 2010 02:11 Gretorp wrote:
so i'm back ^^!
I just want to make it clear that I do in fact appreciate criticism and I'm open to it without a doubt. If you ever hear me on my stream, I have no problem admitting my faults and trying to adjust them. I dont have some complex.
What I do have a problem with is how people express their criticism. Saying "you're trying to commentate like you're smart when you don't know anything," and "perhaps you should look into (MU) more, because I think there's a lot you're missing" give two different responses. If you look what I said before, it wasn't the contents which bugged me but the way it was worded and the way it sounded.
It might've been a miscommunication however, and maybe i read into it too much. For that, I deeply apologize. I have a notebook of things i compile of things to work on. I have written a lot of stuff down, and I won't be saying macroeconomic anymore :-P! I didn't even realize I said that to be honest!
Anyway, Thank you for this thread. Again I apologize for some of my misinterpretations, but I really thought you were trolling, and it enrages me to see troll as I insta ban everyone that does it in my stream. Perhaps you will see a whole new gretorp caster in the future. It might be in English AND coherent ^^!
There's one element that this thread has kinda been missing, and maybe it's because players are kind of given a pass (understandably) but I just wanted to throw it out there.
I think it's completely unrealistic to hold players like you and orb to the same standards of a caster while you're commentating on your own games that you're playing live.
"I'mma hide these vikings over here then flank him once stim is done. Boppin this clown!"
This is totally fine IMO. Playing ladder games and streaming/commentating at the same time has got to be tough as nails. Don't worry about your commentating if it's going to impact your game play at all. I think most would agree.
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On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote:
I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. The streamer knows everything that's going on. After you get into the zone and get "tunnel vision", sometimes you just want to stick to your build because it's what you've gone over again and again. You're thinking about what your opponent might be doing. You're thinking of a million other things.
The caster can pull back and say, he's gotta stop making marines! Colossus range is almost done! Because he isn't playing in the dark and he's not faced with 1000 different decisions. I highly doubt casters are doing this so they can stroke their mighty e-peens.
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so, what I've learned from this thread is:
do the best you can, and accept criticism when possible, almost always. when impossible, do the best you can. it is impossible to please everyone.
an aside for the casters out there reading this - THANKS!
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On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote:
I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
This crosses the line from criticism into personal griping. So your preference is heavy play-by-play, that's cool, but that's not how sports commentary in any form works. You will have a lot of play-by-play, but there will also be strategic analysis, usually not by the same guy, but it'll be there. Strategic analysis, I've been told, is fairly important in a strategy game.
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Wow. Well I couldn't sleep so I took the time to read all these posts.
There is a lot of good and bad points, that's for sure. Good points and constructive criticism are awesome and needed for commentators to adjust, or improve.
I myself, only started casting just over a month ago. I started off by just casting some random games of my own, and a group of players that had been chatting on the forums. I think I made the mistake by accepting the offer to commentate for some high profile events, early in my casting career. I think it did more harm than good. Within 2 weeks of casting, I was asked to cast for the SC2CL and an inControl show match... and then a week later, to cast the GLHF.it tournament. These all included high end players. This brought in a LOT of viewers (almost 4000 to the whitera/TLO finals). My unpolished and still learning style was then compared to casters like HD, Husky, and even more, to Day9.
While I appreciate being compared to and even mentioned in the same paragraph as these guys, it really caught me off guard and demoralized me. Day9 is one of the most insightful starcraft players/casters I've ever listened to. Husky and HD have over a year under their belts, and 75,000+ subscribers. I have maybe 300 now.
Here are a few thoughts of mine:
1. Dual casting should be left to casters that mesh well, and have practiced enough. Nothing is more annoying than 2 casters that are talking about different things, or have 2 different casting styles.
2. Solo casting is tough. If you haven't done it, don't complain about something being missed. Some of these players are reaching 150-250 APM at times....How can you expect a caster to see it all, and explain/talk about it? It takes a lot of time and practice to be able to balance yourself between mini map, main screen, production/units tabs, ALL THE WHILE, commenting it with a good flow.
3. Give new casters a break. I may be biased towards this, because I am one. Honestly, if the caster has a good voice, good charisma, and a decent grasp of the game/language, why be harsh or complain about the casting? Sure another caster could be doing it, but maybe Day9 or HD or Husky weren't available? This is JUST the beta right now, and there are already so many tournaments, leagues, and show matches. Can 3-5 casters REALLY cast it all? No. What about when the game goes live and there are 2-5 times the number of events to cast? No. Especially not if its a hobby and not a paid job. If people keep up non-constructive criticism, new casters will leave, and the community will never grow in that sense.
4. It's impossible to please everyone. I understand that. I can't tell if some people would prefer a play by play cast, or a detailed analysis. In my opinion, solo casting a live event, should mostly be play by play, with a bit of insight. There is more hype, more enthusiasm, and no time to pause, rewind, or just talk about something, because another thing will be missed. Replay casts have the luxury of pause, and can do more detailed analysis. For dual casts, ideally I see it as 1 caster being the play by play guru, and the other player offering insight or analysis. Seems like that would work well.
Anyway. When I started casting, I'd come home from work and be like "Ya, I have like 5 games to cast tonight, woot". I still REALLY enjoy casting, and would love for it to be more than a hobby...but lately it just feels like nobody appreciates the work beginner casters do, because they would just rather listen to the guys that are vets and have been doing it longer. It's demoralizing to say the least. I might keep up with it for now, and see where it goes. Yesterday I did an interview/dual cast with Artosis on a few of his games. I really enjoyed that and I hope people like it. It was my first time doing something like that.
This is getting long and I didn't expect it to be. Thanks for all the advice and insight. It's nice to see a discussion on casters.
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Psy deserves another plug as a commentator. He's definitely a higher level and underrated caster (only mentioned twice so far in this thread)
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You know what i hate more than a poor caster? A poor caster hater. Everyone is a critic, no one is going to cater to whatever stupid stuff you think so go F yourself, OP.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
