P.P.S. Reading the thread made me realise how many people haven't even heard of other casters apart from Day9, Husky and HD, so I included a list of those mentioned. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to be included in the list.
Now, before I begin I would like to state that I have never done any sort of commentary. I am just another ordinary viewer (who has done some Media Studies but that doesn't really matter).
Most of you probably realise this but just in case: the SC2 scene is growing fast and as the number of people watching is increasing, so are the demands to proper presentation by you. Covering a RTS game is a rather tricky thing to do: you are at the same time commentators, operators and directors - a challenging role indeed. However, there are plenty of tools that modern technology provides to you in order to make esports coverage possible, and the most useful of them all is the easy access to your audience.
This wall is not made of text.
Think about it this way. Yes, you (probably) do your job for free. Does that mean that you should not try to get better at it? Of course not. If you do not do it properly, others will take your place. This thread is not about bashing the ones we find irritating or incompetent but rather to highlight what is done in an appealing way, what is not and what we would like to see change with time.
I am in no way under the illusion that this topic will cover all the issues or be objective but I do believe that those casters who bother reading it will find plenty of useful information in the replies.
Just Googled it.
I will start with some very basic points. It may sound obvious but the most important thing to do is to offer acomprehensive coverage of the game.
Example: Player A sends some units towards Player B's base. Even on the smallest map this takes some time.
The bad caster follows this group of units' tedious journey.
The good caster looks at how Player B's defence is set up, checks the production tab, pays attention not only to the tech path players have taken but to the whole organisation of their bases, etc.. Just like any decent player, the caster is overseeing the progress of the same group of units on the minimap and moves the camera back to them right on time.
Proper focus
Example: Player A and Player B have a massive clash in the centre of the map. At the same time Player A sends a small force to Player B's gold expansion.
The bad caster moves the camera away in the middle of the battle to stare aimlessly at the empty place where the expansion used to be and perhaps do some mouse-clicking action, while analysing: "What an amazing move by Player A, he killed this expansion."
The good caster moves the camera for just one second and goes back to the battle immediately or does not move it at all and makes a note that the expansion has been raised. Hint: The pixels on the minimap are gone. Lost. Never to be seen again.
Now, of course, quite often it is impossible to follow all the action but just like good players will switch back and forward and try to do a lot of micro/macro, the good caster attempts to follow them.
Also, if you are casting from a replay, there is no reason not to jump backwards. The viewers want to see the full game, not just a limited portion of it.
Just like good players need to keep on high levels of concentration, so do good casters. Talking gibberish and admiring the scenery is fun every now and then but that's it. Once the game has started, keep it in mind that the insight you have can wait. Paying attention to the massacre that's going on can not.
Doing a live commentary for many hours is exhausting and with time the quality of the shoutcasting is likely to deteriorate. Perhaps one of the easiest ways to keep going is utilising every possible break you get to the maximum. Even if it is just for 30 seconds, get out of your room, do some push-ups, read some gentlemen's special interest literature - anything but starting at the screen.
Language
It's not about having a potty mouth or not. Tastes differ and whatever you do, some people will get annoyed. And, of course, there is no specific set of rules which makes you sound professional. Everything is subjective. For example, if your monicker happens to be Day9, every single time you say "shrubbery", you make hundreds of geeks happy. However, if your nickname is HD and you say "actually", one of Husky's kittens dies from a horrible... death.
Kittens are the ultimate wall-of-text-breaker.
Also, you need to be careful with balancing the background information you give so that experienced players/viewers will not get bored, while newbies will be able to keep up with what is going on. How many times do we need to hear about Zerg's expansion pattern on Metalopolis? You have all said it sooo many times.
Of course, it is tricky, really really tricky. When you watch football, you know what a penalty is. It does not change, it's been the same ever since you were born. However, SC2 is a new game and even old gamers need some time to get used to the fact that a certain map has a short air-rush distance but moving ground army takes ages.
And, in case you don't know, professional sporting commentators piss off the viewers every day just by being professional sporting commentators. This is the last thing you have to worry about.
***
I shall stop here for now, mostly because I am just one of the many who watch your shows. Again, if you think that you have something useful to add, by all means do it. And remember that even if the SC2 scene does not grow as big as SC:BW is in South Korea, it can still be large enough for your channel to get popular and perhaps even worth running it from a financial perspective.
P.S. Oh, and thanks for what you are doing. No matter if it's just because you love the game and the community, because you want the experience for your CV, because you expect to actually profit from it or because you just want to be oh-so-popular, you are doing a good job.
When I first started reading you'r post I thought it was going to be mindless bashing on outstanding commentators. I was wrong, good write up and I agree with almost everything. Hopefully Husky, HD, or Day9 will respond.
A few points I'd like to comment on. If you're replay casting trying to scoot the timer back while not spoiling anything would be tricky.. and since a lot of people are dual-casting it would cause confusion and you would have to "resync" with the co-caster.. the whole thing would just become a mess.
Also.. since SC2 is truly still in its earliest stages.. and like you said.. the amount of people watching is growing, it's not a stretch to claim that people whom are very new to RTS's don't even think about the expanding pattern for zerg on metalopolis or mentioning the short air rush distance.
All in all the commentators have don't a pretty decent job thus far. The only thing I'd have to complain about is the lack of usage of the tabs while spectating. A lot of the time commentators will sit on the army tab for half the game and spectators aren't really getting all the information that we could be. However, I'm not sure if it's better to have to gauge who's ahead by the battles or if having full disclosure over everything is better for spectating.
lol, yeah i thought this was going to be a very angry thread, because the title seemed sarcastic, but you have some good points /// especially the "proper focus" part. and in all honesty i think the english commentators should take a lesson from the koreans... even though i have no idea what they are saying, the guy controlling the mini-map and the screen is sublime and rarely if ever misses anything, and on top of that the emotion from them is fantastic.
Great post op! Thanks for throwing it up. There are many wannabe and new casters, good ideas all.
I think it's a great point that casters should be taking breaks and trying to keep their concentration and focus levels up just as if they were laddering, even more so as hundreds/thousands will be watching.
Also, you need to be careful with balancing the background information you give so that experienced players/viewers will not get bored, while newbies will be able to keep up with what is going on. How many times do we need to hear about Zerg's expansion pattern on Metalopolis? You have all said it sooo many times.
Honestly, I think it's better to work for what your theme is. Husky's casts, for example, are more about getting newer players into the game and just entertaining casting, but it's not as detailed as what Day[9] does, which is more of an analytical cast to explain the subtle strategies and subtle tactics of players. What if you have 1000 new viewers who never saw the older VOD's where you described the expansion patterns? So you alienate them? You don't have to do it every cast necessarily, but do it often enough so that newer players can get an understanding.
I do agree that sometimes casters don't always have their focus in the right place, but again, some things are obvious and again, depends on what the caster is going for. Again, Day[9] will probably pay attention to the little force going after an expo during the big battle, because he'll want to explain the point behind the attack and everything building up to it. Husky will probably want to focus on both about equally, maybe moreso on the big battle. I'd say if you are just doing it for entertainment and to show off the awesomeness of the game, you'd probably just focus on the big battle and not even pay attention to the little attack but just a little bit.
Of course, you mentioned it was subjective, so I'm not disagreeing with you, just giving a different point of view (I think).
However, something I find annoying is interruptions of the game or distractions from it. Like when a friend of the caster sends a message or something. Or when we have to see the program transitioning, like, opening up Google or whatever in the middle of the cast and it pops up. It's not a big deal, but I think it would be best to avoid those things, or take care of them before the cast. Make sure your status is Away or Busy or leave a note to not be bothered, and open up any auxiliary programs before the cast. I think the consistency would be a bit more professional, but it's not a huge issue really.
All valid points, but really I think in the long run, people won't remember that you missed that zergling run-by while discussing the benefit of chrono boosting as much as possible. They'll remember your voice, your excitement level, and the amount and quality of the videos you produce. If I was the hypothetical best commentator ever, but I only uploaded 1 replay every 2 weeks and it was riddled with hardware lag, nobody would watch no matter how insightful or how perfect the tone might be. Thoughts on that? When you think of 5 different commentators, if you even can think of 5, what are the first three things you use to describe them? Is it how often they have the income tab open compared to the army tab, or is it much more generic?
By the sounds of things, you should probably do some commentating yourself.
These are all valid points. I agree completely that as the player base in SC2 grows, so too will the expectations of players. Even though good commentating is a complicated juggling act for a free service - viewers are very picky. Personally, I do my best to cover as many bases as possible (please as many possible tastes while offending the fewest) -- sooner or later you've got to accept your niche and ignore/block people who don't like you.
Good post. Hope the big names read this. HD needs to stop saying actually (he's been getting way better lately).
Commentators sometimes need to be more critical of what they see and call out a blatantly bad play instead of glossing over it. Example: 20 zerglings run single-file into 6 zealots, no surround, they all die without getting a single kill. Good caster calls out the bad play on the part of the zerg. Bad caster says "great micro by the protoss" even though the protoss did not control his units in that fight.
@Joshy - you're right in mentioning that excitement level and production quality are awfully important. You can spot a bad commentator instantly: they mumble or their video/sound is awful.
That being said, while the amazing commentator who uploads once a week with bad hardware will never match the daily commentator -- whoever masters both will ultimately be the best.
and the interesting thing is, they all have their own style because its their own project.
Sure if we had an ESPN version of Starcraft I'd expect something different than what I've seen thus far (only slightly), but the uniqueness of each caster makes it interesting. If everyone talked like an ESPN sports caster I'd probably just change the channel.
On June 18 2010 11:40 LooseMoose wrote: A few points I'd like to comment on. If you're replay casting trying to scoot the timer back while not spoiling anything would be tricky.. and since a lot of people are dual-casting it would cause confusion and you would have to "resync" with the co-caster.. the whole thing would just become a mess.
Also.. since SC2 is truly still in its earliest stages.. and like you said.. the amount of people watching is growing, it's not a stretch to claim that people whom are very new to RTS's don't even think about the expanding pattern for zerg on metalopolis or mentioning the short air rush distance.
Of course, a lot of things vary depending on a long list of factors and commentary will change with time. The main purpose of this thread is not to state what is right and what is wrong because it is rarely that simple but to look at what's going on and generate feedback for the casters.
On June 18 2010 11:51 OneFierceZealot wrote:and in all honesty i think the english commentators should take a lesson from the koreans... even though i have no idea what they are saying, the guy controlling the mini-map and the screen is sublime and rarely if ever misses anything, and on top of that the emotion from them is fantastic.
Indeed. The Koreans obviously have much more experience, so it only makes sense to try and learn from them.
On June 18 2010 11:59 RageOverdose wrote: I'm going to make one point.
Also, you need to be careful with balancing the background information you give so that experienced players/viewers will not get bored, while newbies will be able to keep up with what is going on. How many times do we need to hear about Zerg's expansion pattern on Metalopolis? You have all said it sooo many times.
Honestly, I think it's better to work for what your theme is. Husky's casts, for example, are more about getting newer players into the game and just entertaining casting, but it's not as detailed as what Day[9] does, which is more of an analytical cast to explain the subtle strategies and subtle tactics of players. What if you have 1000 new viewers who never saw the older VOD's where you described the expansion patterns? So you alienate them? You don't have to do it every cast necessarily, but do it often enough so that newer players can get an understanding.
Perhaps it's worth saying that for me Day9's Dailies are a completely different genre than usual shoutcasting. So is for example Gretorp's commentary on his live stream because he is doing it from first person.
And yes, different casters have different styles. Perhaps the one I enjoyed the most was Forsti's English commentary. Because his native language is German, his spoken APM was really low and most of the time he focused on the basics and provided a solid commentary. The complete opposite is TotalBiscuit - he is like a machine gun and it is quite entertaining even when he isn't actually saying anything at all.
I think it's important to say first of all, that all the casters are damn cool for giving us their time and effort, even if their casting may not be the best. Commentated games are just so much more exciting to watch than silent replays, especially if the commentary is well informed and enthusiastic.
I agree mostly with your post, though. I think a large part of good commentary is simply game knowledge, and that'll take some time. Especially since a lot of the best gamers in SC2 at the moment don't use strategies previously seen in each new tournament, commentators are caught off guard much more often than say, the commentators in SC1.
I am actually interested in casting (started out with uploading my beta games on youtube). And this information is useful. When the game makes it debut I think of casting in a very easy new comer fashion, I do understand strategies and tactics, but to be at an expertise on a level such as day9 I could never be so I'll stick to basics. However in doing so, how would you go about not being repetitive in providing information in matches such as the zerg expo example mentioned.
A basic mistake that I've seen almost all of these casters make is their sound settings. You can barely even hear the game or music and their mic is turned all the way up. I don't understand why people do that at all. It's far better when you can hear the game sounds, like in Korean SC VODs.
There is no "right" way to do a commentary. This is entirely subjective topic as you said and is ultimately up to the audience to decide which caster's "style" they enjoy the most. I think looking at the right thing, making the right call, and choosing the right language sort of stuff will improve as commentators become more experienced. Commentating isn't an easy task after all.
However, nothing annoys me more than when someone comments "HD and Husky suck at making calls, Day9 is the best and he should do the commentary for this!" While Day9 is certainly one of the best options if you are a competitive player, many new players or casuals are turned off by his style.In fact lots of my friends prefer HD over day9 because day9 is often overwhelming and incomprehensible to a new comers of esports where as I enjoy day9's style very much personally.
Also,in my opinion, commentating should be about entertaining the audience just as much as about giving thorough coverage of the game. Koreans don't consider OGN commentators the best because they are perfect at making calls and know the game inside and out (NOT implying that they don't) but because they are entertaining. They even have their own tv show for a reason.
Well different from the original post, but there are some things about English SC casting (live casting of a match) that have always kind of irked me: Excitement Where is it? Korean eSports is fun and exciting because of the casters, even though I don't know too much Korean I can hear the excitement and get enthralled in a game because of it. I also don't particularly like hearing, "Yeah this game is pretty much over, gg any minute." It just sucks the wind out of my sails especially when watching a best of 5 series. Language When casters (or even players/forumers in general) say things like "good micro" and "good macro" it seems silly to me. Not sure where these words originated, but they were passed down and people picked them up to try and sound gosu or something. How can I try to get a friend to watch eSports and have them enjoy it when words like that are used? What is wrong with saying "control" and "production"? To the outsider that isn't into the forum "gosu" lingo it seems like that would be a little easier to comprehend. Copy-cat casting Tasteless said the word blunder. Now everyone says the word blunder. I hate the word blunder. I hear the word blunder and I associate it to mean a hugeeee mistake, but then casters are saying "little bit of a blunder" when a supply depot is slightly misplaced and has no impact on the current situation. Sounds so awkward and forced. Use words you would normally use. Focusing too much on tiny details This one happens a lot. For example: Overlord spewing creep/creep tumors. It is a common thing now, you aren't an innovative maniac for spreading creep anymore. This doesn't really need to be talked about unless it is impacting the current situation in the game. Other things like this are constantly highlighted and talked about wayyy too much. Talking about "what I like to do" Interjecting and stating, "On this map I like to make ____ and do ____ with them." It seems like the caster is trying to dismiss the player's strategy as bad/inferior to what they like to do. If it is an educational audio that is maybe acceptable, but during a live tournament game it really isn't needed. It seems a bit disrespectful to make the cast about yourself instead of giving insight as to why the player in game is doing something.
Probably have more but that's all I can think of at the moment. Feel free to agree/disagree.
Example: Player A and Player B have a massive clash in the centre of the map. At the same time Player A sends a small force to Player B's gold expansion.
The bad caster moves the camera away in the middle of the battle to stare aimlessly at the empty place where the expansion used to be and perhaps do some mouse-clicking action, while analysing: "What an amazing move by Player A, he killed this expansion."
The good caster moves the camera for just one second and goes back to the battle immediately or does not move it at all and makes a note that the expansion has been raised. Hint: The pixels on the minimap are gone. Lost. Never to be seen again.
I <3 you for mentioning this... it is the #1 pet peeve I have with certain commentators. In addition to this, I will see interesting things happening on the minimap but commentators will look elsewhere and wont notice it quick enough for me!
Easier said than done. Know a lot of commentators through organizing iCCup TV Events. It's hard to keep it up for 6+ hours on a live event (or 34 for Raelcun :D ). Also some youtube commentators hate doing the same replay multiple times as it does take time to do it and edit it and upload, etc. But nice points either way.
The only issue i have with low level commentary is the excuse that "its targeted at casual players". You wouldn't have a 3rd grade teacher telling students that 2+2=4 but maybe not kinda im not sure. With that said, i'm just going to leave this topic alone
Excitement Where is it? Korean eSports is fun and exciting because of the casters, even though I don't know too much Korean I can hear the excitement and get enthralled in a game because of it. I also don't particularly like hearing, "Yeah this game is pretty much over, gg any minute." It just sucks the wind out of my sails especially when watching a best of 5 series.
Oh god, this. It's like commentators are nerdy enough to spend all their time watching, playing and studying Starcraft, but too self-conscious to yell while casting. It may have something to do with the 3-commentator setup, though, which Korea uses extensively and the West uses... never.
I just feel like the level of casting can be risen almost throughout the board by most casters. Husky and gretorp work well together. They provide basic commentary designed to appeal to the masses. They have a plan, and it works.
The problem, however, arises when we put 2 casters together that don't often work with one another. A great example would be when I see day9 and gretorp. I just don't think gretorp works well as a co caster tbh. His insight is great, but so many times I hear day leave an opening for him to segue into some color commentary and there's just an awkward period of dead air before gretorp realizes he should talk, or else day has to egg him on to speak.
Tasteless and SDM however, have tremendous synergy. They feed off of one another, fill the "downtime" with anecdotes or theory, but when the action picks up again they both rise to the occasion.
I think one of the biggest things that a caster can do to provide a higher quality viewing experience is take a few hours and study commentating in general. Nony and idra have a ton of knowledge and can probably theorycraft on the fly all game long, but they might be terrible at casting. On the other hand, any ESPN field reporter would be able to study the game for a few weeks and probably be a great color commentator.
If you're going to put the time in to become a great commentator, put the time in to study commentating :D
On June 18 2010 13:07 PeT[uK] wrote: Can OP get banned for his siggy cause I'm offended.
I agree it may be tasteless, but you can't ban someone on the premise of being offended. Offensiveness is completely subjective. If I was offended by people speaking Korean it wouldn't give the right for me to request anyone that offends me to receive repercussions. That being said, lets get back on topic
At the moment I'd be most appreciative of caster who manages to sound like he understands the game as good as me as viewer - when it comes to my main race. I like all the most popular casters for the different sort of entertainment they offer, but almost all seem to miss stuff that a 2k zerg wouldn't. Some "advanced basics" that should be top notes for the caster to notice, but without actual experience of first person high level playing on all races you'll end up missing really important stuff. This likely goes for all races, eventhough at least toss seems to have some pretty good (in SC2 skill) representatives for casting
As example I could use the HDH finals, where really important factor in most of the games was the amount of colo tech vs. scouting it and spire timing. Really, when the toss makes 2robo colo, the main focus in game should be on how zerg is going to counter it since it's the autowin unit if zerg doesn't react to them being around. I'd be scrolling over the zerg base constantly to see spire, or talk about other options zerg might have in mind such as infestors were in one of the games. This has seemed to become nuisance in most of the zvp games - corruptors at some point just show up, or don't, in masses without spire often even being revealed for viewers or production tab being shown at any point to show where zerg is standing in anti-colo perspective.
Anyhow, that was just one example. I don't expect casters to be top10 representatives of any race, but maybe some sort of overall cliffnotes for casters about what to focus on would be in order since some issues' importance just doesn't seem to be visible for casters who in other ways act as well as I could think of. There is almost no zerg game where I don't feel like some important stuff is not being shown to viewer, I doubt I'm alone with these feelings.
I know most don't care about as tight strategic elements as I do and go for entertaining sound and feel of the caster primarily, but I don't see why these couldn't unite. As much as I did like the klazart,diggity and all those casters job with SC1 starting from like 3 years ago, still as learning experience I still remember most the FPVODs of Ahzz and Nony. Pretty much the only english commentaries that actually provided sensible strategic insight then that I couldn't think of myself (note: not dissing any liquidrelated sc1 casting, just didn't get to hear any then ).
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
Glad I read this thread, I think that guy is awesome ^_^
One major thing I would like to request from casters: Include a link to the file of the Replay that you're casting. I think we would all gain a tremendous amount more of understanding if we had access to the actual replay file.
I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility. Of course this is also true for screen movement. The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice. Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility. Of course this is also true for screen movement. The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice. Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
I have to say that I really agree with this point. Having slow concious mouse movements makes everything look so deliberate, and in turn more confident. Spamming and clicking all over is a hard habit to break I'm sure, but if you could exercise a little restraint it goes a long way.
On June 18 2010 13:07 PeT[uK] wrote: Can OP get banned for his siggy cause I'm offended.
troll harder
@topic
IMO, the commentators can be compared to BW itself. as time pass, they get better. SC2 is just starting and there will always be potential for these types of eSports casting .. the following are great examples from commentators. you dont really need to understand what they are saying, you just need to go with the flow of the game. the spectators will understand whats on screen ..
On June 18 2010 12:57 RyanS wrote: Language When casters (or even players/forumers in general) say things like "good micro" and "good macro" it seems silly to me. Not sure where these words originated, but they were passed down and people picked them up to try and sound gosu or something. How can I try to get a friend to watch eSports and have them enjoy it when words like that are used? What is wrong with saying "control" and "production"? To the outsider that isn't into the forum "gosu" lingo it seems like that would be a little easier to comprehend.
Entertaining thread, this comment in particular made me laugh. Faulting someone for speaking in the lingo that everyone in the community understands and uses? Good stuff.
On June 18 2010 18:15 XtrEEmMaShEEN3k2 wrote: One major thing I would like to request from casters: Include a link to the file of the Replay that you're casting. I think we would all gain a tremendous amount more of understanding if we had access to the actual replay file.
^ Absolutely!
Probably the only problem I have with the few casters I watch is accuracy. Calling a Probe a Drone and not realising you called a Probe a Drone makes me wanna throw my monitor into the sun. If you correct yourself, all good, but when a caster consistently makes such basic errors without noticing it it brings their knowledge into question.
One other thing that gets on my nerves (but isn't such a big deal) is casters calling the SLIGHTEST variation a "super creative play". Everyone agrees that TLO is a ridiculously creative player, but that doesn't mean that when he goes 14 pool, 15 hatch, you have to scour the map for some tiny deviation from standard play.
"OMFG! TLO is rushing with 4 lings instead of 6! SUPER CREATIVE PLAY!"
Edit: And actually following that... Casters should NEVER let their player-favoritism get in the way of casting each team as evenly as possible. I've seen too many games where the more famous of the two players will have the replay-cam constantly in his base, and the other play gets almost completely neglected.
Also, if you are casting from a replay, there is no reason not to jump backwards. The viewers want to see the full game, not just a limited portion of it.
+1. If any caster reads this, I find this a very important point. Blizz gave you the tools to go back if you've missed something, you can even pause (not for too much) to explain something before a battle takes place or something, use these tools. Me as a viewer don't mind the caster taking the game back so that I can see a key thing happening.
I'd like to thank the OP for taking time to provide a well thought-out opinion and one I would recommend every caster read, regardless of how good or bad they believe themselves to be.
Folks are always going to differ on what they believe the best style of commentary to be. Some even go as far as to exist in a binary frame of mind, ie. this style of commentary is good, all others are bad because they are not this one. I've had people write paragraphs on how Starcraft 2 is not a soccer game and it is disrespectful to ESPORTS to treat it like one and others claim my style of commentary is the only valid one. They are both wrong.
I think we're entering a potentially great era of eSports broadcasting. Several casters are on the verge of going pro at which point they will have better equipment, proper technical and marketing support and can focus more on producing regular, high quality content. As it stands, the atmosphere between casters is competitive but in a friendly manner, free of drama and nonsense (for the time being).
On the subject of jargon, since that seems to be being discussed quite a bit, it's a tricky subject. There's an awful lot more jargon in SC2 than say soccer, because let's be honest, SC2 is a more complex game. There are times when it's best to say M+M+M rather than Marines, Marauders and Medivacs + an explanation of why they go well together. There comes a point I suppose where a certain baseline of knowledge has to be assumed from the viewer, but where that line is will be in a state of flux for some time. If I say the Terran is using Jessica's Build, yet provide no context or explanation for that, some of my audience will know what I'm talking about and the rest will be bewildered, but if Day[9] said that, I'd imagine more of his audience would know what he's talking about. His demographic is more experienced and should be treated as such.
Turning to the matter of negativity towards the players. The danger is making the wrong call, particularly in a live match where you don't know the outcome. It's not exactly good to look like a complete fool when your perceived bad play was actually an innovative strat or simply something you, in your limited experience, had never seen before. Hell I remember my very first cast, having never played BW and never seen the extractor trick. How stupid do I feel now? As the game evolves, so do strategies and while it might be tempting to rag on a player for something you think they've done wrong, it should always be done in cautious and more importantly, respectful manner. These guys are playing for your entertainment and in the case of some of us, we're making money off of their backs, the least you can do is not humiliate them in front of your audience. Negativity should be tempered by a constructive attitude and politeness, nothing worse than a bad mannered caster.
One final thing I will say. I may not be the most experienced caster, but I've been doing radio, both online and terrestrial for a decade, allow me to offer one piece of advice. Only ever listen to fans that have bad things to say about you. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of believing everything the sycophants tell you. You should always assume you can do better and you should always assume that any regular viewer who says something bad about one of your casts is doing so because they care. Learn from them, don't take it personally and don't be afraid to beat yourself up over a mistake, that will hopefully prevent you from making it a second time.
Peace, love and all that other hippy crap to my fellow casters and best of luck.
1. I can't watch any casts that use permanent health bars. They just ruin the experience, at least for me. Please, please, please only use them when absolutely needed - turning them on for the whole duration of battles is also a no-no, since some of us want to see the actual units fighting, not an ugly mess of colored bars vs another ugly mess of colored bars. It could help the players to micro better, but it is of no use for the viewer. If after the battle we see 10 red stalkers, we can be impressed without ruining the battle experience.
2. Those of us with motion sickness know that it's a lot more comfortable to follow your own movements than to follow someone else's movements. If I am driving, I never get carsick, but if I'm a passenger, it's 50/50. It's the same with controlling the camera when casting - if I'm playing a game I can scroll around the base and jump from screen to screen, no problem - but if a caster does that, it's incredibly distracting and tiring. FPVods are better for some reason (probably because the movement is a lot more ordered), but watching a cast with random scrolling around and jumping aimlessly from screen to screen is super nauseating.
On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility. Of course this is also true for screen movement. The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice. Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
Good points. But most Korean casts got 2 observers + 3 commentators. Doing everything yourself is really hard, of course some parts will lack.
On June 18 2010 11:31 xtfftc wrote: Also, you need to be careful with balancing the background information you give so that experienced players/viewers will not get bored, while newbies will be able to keep up with what is going on. How many times do we need to hear about Zerg's expansion pattern on Metalopolis? You have all said it sooo many times.
I'd like to note that's asking for the impossible. If you've found your way to this site, odds are you already belong to the top 25% of players, if not an even smaller percentage. Meanwhile, it's impossible for casters to know who's listening. That is not to say there's no target audience, oh their definitely is and almost each caster has his own target audience. There is however no way to know if the audience that's listening to you on thursday also listened to you on tuesday. If you tune in to a stream regularly, you're going to hear repetition. It's unavoidable because the crucial elements of a matchup or map just don't change that often. So if I see a PvZ on metalopolis on thursday, odds are I'm going to have the same analysis (or believe or understanding, whatever you want to fit there) as on tuesday.
So far I think a lot of the feedback is great, but I really feel that this needed to be pointed out. I wholeheartedly agree in large with the rest of the original post.
That said, because I actually want to contribute some what. An invaluable resource for casters is http://www.theshoutcaster.co.uk/site/?page_id=11 Even if you're not planning on being a commentator, this might enlighten you why so many casters have such a different feel.
On June 18 2010 12:57 RyanS wrote: Talking about "what I like to do" Interjecting and stating, "On this map I like to make ____ and do ____ with them." It seems like the caster is trying to dismiss the player's strategy as bad/inferior to what they like to do. If it is an educational audio that is maybe acceptable, but during a live tournament game it really isn't needed. It seems a bit disrespectful to make the cast about yourself instead of giving insight as to why the player in game is doing something.
Isn't it the other way around? Stating what you like to do is openly acknowledging that a player might know better than you. As a commentator, part of your task is being critical of a player, so if you spot something that's off, the best way to make a note of it is suggesting an alternative. As I've said quite a lot of times, I never forget that most of all the players in high level invite tournaments would rock my world in a 1v1. Saying "I don't really like that play, what I'd prefer to do here is.." is a rather polite way of putting it.
On June 18 2010 13:07 McCain wrote: It may have something to do with the 3-commentator setup, though, which Korea uses extensively and the West uses... never.
3 commentator setup doesn't work online, people just end up yelling over one another. For events, when you can actually make eye-contact, it works much better.
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
Yet TotalBiscuit actually making an insightful comment is one of the 12 signs the end of times is near. <3 Yes I see you up there TB!
I have to really appreciate threads like this. With the hiatus of beta I started doing commentary to get my fix and have found it to be enjoyable. Luckily some of my friends are sending me their replays so I am breaking away from the "I am doing this/I would do this" stage of the early caster. But back on topic, threads like this are very helpful for the few of us that are starting out now and actually trying to get better, both as players and commentators. So, as I appreciate feedback, please check out my YouTube Channel so I can get better at what I do for you and your entertainment.
I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are) it makes me worried. If you treat starcraft like the only people who care about it are your five nerdy friends who have LAN parties together, well, self-fulfilling prophecy. People tune in to an event for the first time, hear you speaking like a high school geek, and dismiss the whole thing as a big circle-jerk for people who have nothing going on in their lives. If you seriously want people to think of the game as a highly skilled sport worthy of being broadcast on television with live commentary, you need to treat it like it is.
I don't care how you speak in your normal life, if you want to spout off internet memes to your mom, the barista at starbucks, or your defense attorney, that's your business. When you pick up a mic, you're on some small scale representing the starcraft community, and you should consider what you sound like to people who are more interested in spectator sports than 4chan. Now, that doesn't mean be serious 100% of the time. By all means, make dirty jokes, use silly analogies that go on way too long, make fun of the tendencies of famous players, and so forth. That's flavour. Just say it with normal words that people who aren't immersed in nerd culture use.
I think the best example for all of us who don't speak Korean to emulate is poker. Poker as a subculture is full of bastardized argot and poker forums look like any other internet forum, full of silly abbreviations and abstract emoticons. Poker as a live sporting event is not. You're never going to hear someone on ESPN call a poker player a "LAGtard" or say "VNH" when a player wins a big pot. They use professional, practiced diction. And guess what, in five years it went from being an underground culture existing only in dingy cardrooms to being an international industry worth millions with players who are household names, and people who had never picked up a deck of cards in their life flying to vegas to get in on the action. The size of poker events went from 6 tables to hundreds nearly overnight. If you are a starcraft commentator, believe this can happen for us and act like it already has.
On June 18 2010 20:24 baytripper wrote: I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are)
I would request that anyone who uses the phrase 'epic fail' throws themselves down a well, tbh.
On June 18 2010 20:24 baytripper wrote: I personally would like to see a little bit more professionalism from my commentators. When I hear a commentator say "QQ" out loud or talk about a player's "epic fail" (you know who you are) it makes me worried. If you treat starcraft like the only people who care about it are your five nerdy friends who have LAN parties together, well, self-fulfilling prophecy. People tune in to an event for the first time, hear you speaking like a high school geek, and dismiss the whole thing as a big circle-jerk for people who have nothing going on in their lives. If you seriously want people to think of the game as a highly skilled sport worthy of being broadcast on television with live commentary, you need to treat it like it is.
Granted, I'm one of the few that can speak from experience, but if I'm casting a televised event, my casting is nothing like when I'm casting a weekly open-to-all tournament. Not that I respect one or the other more, but because I know the audience is very much different. When you're casting an event which won't draw any viewers outside of regulars, by all means I'd encourage casters to take it down a notch, loosen your tie and banter away casually. When you're casting a high profile invite only tournament on the other hand, bring your A-game professionally speaking.
I think the most important note here is to know your audience. Are they there just to have a good time, did they come to just take a break from playing or has this event been on their calendar for the past week.
On June 18 2010 18:15 XtrEEmMaShEEN3k2 wrote: One major thing I would like to request from casters: Include a link to the file of the Replay that you're casting. I think we would all gain a tremendous amount more of understanding if we had access to the actual replay file.
That really shouldn't be their responsability or decision. They might be casting but they usually won't be responsible for the tournament.
As sponsoring gets bigger you'll see less and less replays being distributed. A replay doesn't include any of the advertising you did during the cast. You want people hearing you thank Dr. Pepper for donating 5000$ and seeing that Viagra banner if they want to watch your tournament. If a commentator I hired to commentate starts leaking replays because he thinks he's entitled to, I would not hire him again.
If they are both commentating and in charge of whatever video you are watching then sure, they can do whatever they want.
Talking about "what I like to do" Interjecting and stating, "On this map I like to make ____ and do ____ with them." It seems like the caster is trying to dismiss the player's strategy as bad/inferior to what they like to do. If it is an educational audio that is maybe acceptable, but during a live tournament game it really isn't needed. It seems a bit disrespectful to make the cast about yourself instead of giving insight as to why the player in game is doing something.
Disagreed. During the build up of initial scvs/probes/drones and during other down-times, I feel like this is appropriate. It's not trying to dismiss or diminish the player's strategy, it helps set the background of the particular match up on the particular map so that the viewers can start thinking about it. I like when casters aren't afraid to speak up about their preferences during play, and their opinions on weak and strong plays in different match ups, and maps as long as they actually bring up some particular play for the viewers to consider and don't just accuse the players' of doing the wrong thing.
On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility. Of course this is also true for screen movement. The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice. Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
This is where most casters fail horribly. You may debate all you like about 'style' or 'tone' but if a cast is making its audience NAUSEOUS then you're doing something very wrong. I play Quake. I don't usually suffer from motion sickness but I had to turn off some of the casts after about 2 mins. Too much jerking around and disjointed camera movements.
I agree with Ryan's post about saying "its GG any moment now" .. at least be exciting up to the point where that happened, and if the other guy decides to stay and prolong the game, start talking about why he lost and why the other person won instead of robotically asying:
"yeah.. its over. gg anytime now.. i really dont see how he can come back, there's really nothing going for him, his economy is so behind, look at the food count, and with this triple expansion there is no way he'll be back economically, he just has so many units that he won't be able to over come this"
believe it or not, this actually happens way more often than you think. notice how the caster just said the same thing 10 times? not very entertaining or informative since we can clearly see what they are seeing. great opportunity for day9 style analysis if you ever get in this situation.
I would just like casters to be more honest. Too often they get into the same mode sports announcers do where they only talk about the positive things happening or giving credit where there is none. For example, in basketball when a player obviously fouls another to stop a basket and there is no call they will say "Oh, great block!" Just admit the mistakes, everything doesn't have to be positive. I learn more from casters showing mistakes than from poor play that is passed off as good because they win.
On June 18 2010 13:08 mcneebs wrote: Tasteless and SDM however, have tremendous synergy. They feed off of one another, fill the "downtime" with anecdotes or theory, but when the action picks up again they both rise to the occasion.
I think it's very unfair to expect people on Skype to work as well as two people in a room together.
I really don't like when casters try to make something out of nothing. A lot of times you just decide to attack, or your units just stop at a position. Not because you are trying some high level feint and this or that, just because you're busy doing other things. It's not a timing attack, it's not a fake or gambit, you're just fucking moving out. Casters these days make players seem like robots that are constantly mathematically monitoring their army composition for the best time to attack.
Why has there not been any mention of me yet? According to the OP I am the perfect caster! So I think I deserve my 40k subscribers now! ... *looks around* ... *waits* ... ... I think we all agree that was worth a shot ...
I think my biggest issue is the quality of observing. A lot of casters started out with pro games, having a nice and simple vod in front of you while you sip some brandy and blither into a mic. I personally have always casted from the trenches of replays and livecasts so I have developed this tic of constantly being in 'observer mode' when I'm watching a replay, even when I'm not recording. I'm guessing most casters will get used to it after a while. And if not. Unsub and watch me instead!
I dont know many commentators, but i really like Day[9] and Husky (not so much of HD btw o.o).. Those 2 are great, both understand the game and strategies and the most important aspect to me, they make the game FUN to watch!
I really laugh when I'm watching them talk and stuff...
I dont remember the game exactly, but there's a game where Husky see a probe SLIDING while chase the Drone, and he was in shock! For a moment, he stop watching the game, just to see the Probe "Drifting"! I laughed so hard that day!
On June 19 2010 00:14 Chill wrote: I really don't like when casters try to make something out of nothing. A lot of times you just decide to attack, or your units just stop at a position. Not because you are trying some high level feint and this or that, just because you're busy doing other things. It's not a timing attack, it's not a fake or gambit, you're just fucking moving out. Casters these days make players seem like robots that are constantly mathematically monitoring their army composition for the best time to attack.
Haha I totally agree with this.
Commander: A'ight troops, lets move out to kick some ass
Strategic Advisor: Why?
Commander: We been sittin' here doin' fuck all all game 'cept macro, its time to kick some ass
Strategic Advisor: But what will the commentators say!?
Commander: Just feels right son... sometimes you just gotta kill somethin' to win
Please for the love of god don't ever EVER say terrible terrible damage (you know who you are). That phrase makes me want to cringe. Not only are you stealing a phrase from someone, you are stealing a BAD one.
Props to all the english casters. You are what got me back into SC:BW and now SC2.
I tried to mix (fairly extreme) humor with semi high-level analysis.
Didn't work out at all, eh? I got about 1.1k subscribes from sc2, not even a stone's throw at what HD or Husky have.
I considered switching to a pure analytical stance, a-la Day[9], but decided it was better just to throw in the towel at this point; the scene is much too competitive now and I'm already too far behind to recover.
It was a gamble, really; In my opinion some of the commentators are really hilarious, especially the Plott brothers, and I could have used my unique and crude sense of humor to bring it to another level and see if I could bring out another type of audience (nearly everyone in the SC modding community knows me for this behavior and is amused by it). I went into the gamble knowing it might not work out, and it didn't work out.
I don't know what I was expecting; I tend to be insanely critical of my own work and constantly work to improve it, but it's clearly my style of casting just wasn't as attractive as I was hoping it could be. That said I did get a fairly vocal, albeit small, amount of people who definitely enjoyed what I did. After a while I wasn't seeing any improvement at all in the extension of my userbase and decided that the ridiculous amount of time (I was investing all day and night for several weeks when beta started into recording/encoding/playing/learning the game, and babysitting youtube's unstable uploader while it chugs along 1080p videos is a real chore) was just not worth it anymore.
Have to hand it to HD and Husky in particular - you guys definitely knew how to get attention and keep it. I hope you go far. As for me, I'm just going to stick to modding and modding-related stuff.
Regarding the language part: I simply had to unsubscribe Husky when he started saying "This is craaaaazyyyy. Absolutely out of control" each time something happened.
Repetitions are rarely good, and repeating annoying catch phrases again and again is a no-go for me.
On June 18 2010 20:22 Martijn wrote: Yet TotalBiscuit actually making an insightful comment is one of the 12 signs the end of times is near. <3 Yes I see you up there TB!
Insight is for pussies. Fuck bitches, cast Starcraft, where dem titties at?
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
YEAHH! TotalBiscuit has the best of both worlds, the enthusiasm of husky and the intellect of day9, and I must say, the most hilarious commentator i've ever listened to. ^LOL HI TOTALBISCUIT!!<3
Very interesting thread, it is good to point out some of these things as many casters lately have been doing a poor job when commenting a match. The statistics tab hasn't been used properly imo and it is one of the best things that has been implemented in SC2. A few commentators completely forget about it when they should be checking some of the most important tabs (Resources, Income, Production, etc) so that viewers get a better and more complete view on the game.
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
YEAHH! TotalBiscuit has the best of both worlds, the enthusiasm of husky and the intellect of day9, and I must say, the most hilarious commentator i've ever listened to. ^LOL HI TOTALBISCUIT!!<3
Rofl, the intellect of Day9. I'm sorry you must have me confused with someone else.
i think ppl get sick of casters too much because there are only two or they both do the same roles, you dont both need to give play by plays or what you would have done. would really like to see some 3 person casting. or at least another SDM who is useless but worthy of awe. even in sportscasting theres usually a braindead ex-pro mixed between the historian and the caster thats telling the game.
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out uSer/TotalHalibut#p/a/u/0/E8CMTf3KuHc" target="_blank">TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current Style of Starcraft shout casting.
YEAHH! TotalBiscuit has the best of both worlds, the enthusiasm of husky and the intellect of day9, and I must say, the most hilarious commentator i've Ever listened to. ^LOL HI TOTALBISCUIT!!<3
Rofl, the intellect of Day9. I'm sorry you must have me confused with someone else.
maybe it's Just your Sexy soothing voice that cause even straight men to get weak knees
On June 19 2010 00:41 T0fuuu wrote: i think ppl get sick of casters too much because there are only two or they both do the same roles, you dont both need to give play by plays or what you would have done. would really like to see some 3 person casting. or at least another SDM who is useless but worthy of awe. even in sportscasting theres usually a braindead ex-pro mixed between the historian and the caster thats telling the game.
You can't do it though, that's the thing. Co-hosting without being in the same room is hard enough on a podcast, co-commentating with latency to worry about and not watching the same screen? With 3 people? A nightmare.
Btw a tip for all the casters out there: When you're not using the info tabs on the replays, either let the production or the income tab open. The production is probably the best because that way we always know what each player is doing. It's also a much better way to see what are the reactions of each player to some situations. For instance, player X does a scan, sees player Y's units, immediatlly starts making Z unit. It's very hard for a caster to be able to pick up on all things, and having the production tab open sure helps the viewers and the caster as well, to have a broader idea of what each player's strategy is, and what they are doing, even when everything seems still.
I would like to see a caster team emerge that are real life friends or something and can actually cast side-by-side instead of over Skype.
I think some of the reason the casters we get aren't as enthused is partly because of the Skype thing, but also because they are college kids in a dorm that are afraid or embarrassed of yelling over a game alone in their room.
It's well within the technical capabilities of a few friends who LAN to put something together. Just brainstorming for fun:
(assuming you have 4-5 people who would want too, which seems likely with the number of successful LAN events organized on this site...)
step 1: Connect PC to TV.
step 2: Set up a webcam on top of the TV pointed towards-
step 3: A desk/table set up at an appropriate distance from the TV/Cam. You can make a backdrop REALLY easily if you have any artistic ability. Especially considering how little face-time the commentators will have, you could really just hang a black sheet behind them for the purpose.
Now you have a rig where 2 or 3 people can sit in front of a single screen and watch the game. In the same room, you would have your Observer, who would work silently in sync with the Casters.
In a setup like this, I think the Observer would be the hardest roll to fill. You would need someone who has pretty extensive knowledge of the game.
Obviously you would require synergy between Casters and Observers.
With this system, you don't even need all the Casters to join the game, just the Observer. The Casters can focus on commentating, and the Observer focuses on showing the right action at the right time.
Anyways that's enough think-typing for now Would love to see something like this.
@IskatuMesk It's only been several months, you can not expect to attract a large viewer base so quickly. Husky and HD got so big because of the HDH Invitational but they might fall into obscurity soon. I am not saying that they did not deserve their popularity, it's just that the scene will morph quite a lot.
Showing the commentators via webcam during downtimes (between games) would be a really nice touch I feel. I don't like looking at the battle.net menu as they struggle to get players in and usually just leave my computer. Bonus points if they are wearing suits.
op had some good points. I just listened to Totalbiscuit for the first time. Great work man, find you super entertaining. I like how there are different types of commentators; I get to watch different commentaries based on how I'm feeling
Something I've noticed from casters is a failure to highlight fairly massive mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes get mentioned, but the caster fails to put it in the proper context.
One example of this I see a lot is slow tank pushes where the player will un-siege several tanks at once to move forward, instead of using the queue system to limit the number of tanks you have un-sieged at a given moment. This is... I won't say "terrible" play but its definitely high-risk play, and when the opponent pushes out while you're moving tanks the outcome is flipped completely upside down. But casters treat this like its a minor mistake, or worse... just bad luck!
On June 19 2010 01:01 xtfftc wrote: @IskatuMesk It's only been several months, you can not expect to attract a large viewer base so quickly. Husky and HD got so big because of the HDH Invitational but they might fall into obscurity soon. I am not saying that they did not deserve their popularity, it's just that the scene will morph quite a lot.
They won't, MLG is going to run things through some of the more popular casters. I think people should continue to constructively criticize as necessary. If a caster wants to be popular they have to treat it like a professional broadcasting job, thick skin, professional attitude, and growth growth growth.
On June 19 2010 00:41 T0fuuu wrote: i think ppl get sick of casters too much because there are only two or they both do the same roles, you dont both need to give play by plays or what you would have done. would really like to see some 3 person casting. or at least another SDM who is useless but worthy of awe. even in sportscasting theres usually a braindead ex-pro mixed between the historian and the caster thats telling the game.
You can't do it though, that's the thing. Co-hosting without being in the same room is hard enough on a podcast, co-commentating with latency to worry about and not watching the same screen? With 3 people? A nightmare.
HDH did cast in the same room, and it didnt get any better from what it normally is. it doesnt solve the overlap problems.
i think it can work though. alot of the podcasts coming from tl have really good synergy and diversity
Am I the only one who thinks the OP doesn't actually say anything at all other than it's important to focus on what's important and different casters have different styles? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong.
I love day[9]. If I were to offer any constructive criticism at all it would to be careful with recycled words. Day is guilty of "reasonably" and "incredibly" in particular.
Just listened to total biscuit for the first time. The way I'd describe it is listening to a race track announcer...for 15 minutes. I have no idea how you can keep that up, but it's awesome.
On June 18 2010 19:09 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been already said but casters should defininitely try to master the wonderful art of mouse discipline which you can see in almost perfect form in korean esport broadcasts!
1) Don't click around like you're playing the game. Insteat do the opposite: Move and click super slow while still showing all (necessary) information. This will be especially hard for (ex-)pros and maybe you'll have to practice this by setting up a very slow mouse sensibility. Of course this is also true for screen movement. The viewer will be very thankful because this way he can see the game instead of 300 APM mouse actions.
2) Don't show everything. An average viewer can only process 1-2 things a second. It sounds antithetical but by showing less information you can communicate more information.
3) When you don't need the mouse, "hide" it somewhere in the UI so the viewer doesn't get distracted.
4) Do everything in rythm! This is where mouse discipline becomes an artform. It is the combintaion of everything above and by no means a must because it probably requires a lot of practice. Move and click like a slow walz when there's less action and pump up to samba in big moments. (Of course this has to come "naturally" - if you force it, it'll probalby look horrible)
^this
I'm so tired of watching casts where the caster moves his mouse around wayyy to fast and constantly is selecting and deselecting units as it almost looks as if he's binding them to groups or something.
PLEASE calm down and slow down the mouse movement. There is no need to select the dam probes 50 times before the first pylon even gets built.
Note to whoever complained about the overuse of the word "blunder" - I find this frustrating as well. Blunder in this context comes from chess, where you can make a) a miscalculation, b) a mistake, or c) a blunder (the worst). Blunders are game-changing mistakes. A blunder is sacking a piece, as opposed to leaving the center undefended (a mistake, perhaps a miscalculation). Unfortunately, in SC2 casting it no longer means this. It is getting up there with epic on the "most overused words" list.
i think there all pretty decent, Day[9] i find myself skipping through his rants, i think he over analysis small things, and his Pro guests dont seem to agree with his logic, and his co-commentator is really hard to listen to, too much studdering. HD is decent, pretty exciting most of the time (tho u can tell he is very inexperienced) and husky, used to be great until some of his recent videos such as Mass queens, he definitely took the professionalism out of his channel.
On June 19 2010 02:01 MrShank wrote: i think there all pretty decent, Day[9] i find myself skipping through his rants, i think he over analysis small things, and his Pro guests dont seem to agree with his logic, and his co-commentator is really hard to listen to, too much studdering. HD is decent, pretty exciting most of the time (tho u can tell he is very inexperienced) and husky, used to be great until some of his recent videos such as Mass queens, he definitely took the professionalism out of his channel.
all great, jus minor flaws, but its all good!
Uhm, hate to jump on the day9 is flawless bandwagon.
But i think that almost all of the top players will say that day9's analytical chitchat is top notch
And he doesn't have a co-caster. Maybe ur talking about gretorp when they commentated on asia vs europe. Either way, day9 is day9 with no co-casters
I definitely agree with the majority of people say. It's very hard to cast sometimes seeing as you have a huge spectrum of audience. This really makes it hard to gear your commentation of strategy and tactics.
From a casters point of view, I think the hardest thing is to speak in sentences and being coherent while at the same time analyzing the game and watching it. I think in general people don't even speak in real sentences other than writing. Therefore, when publicly speaking, it becomes extremely difficult. I have been trying my hardest to just concentrate on talking in sentences lately, but it's a lot harder than people think!!! That or i'm just bad at english, ggme :-P
Anyways thanks for this thread, it's a great idea.
On June 19 2010 02:01 MrShank wrote: and husky, used to be great until some of his recent videos such as Mass queens, he definitely took the professionalism out of his channel.
Glad I'm not alone.
And great to hear from Gretorp! I find the hardest part about speaking in a proper fashion is that the pace of the game often won't let you. There's a lull; you decide to elaborate on a carefully well though-out point when -- "and the Terran player has just pushed out over the Banelings mines, TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE!"
Also, if you are casting from a replay, there is no reason not to jump backwards. The viewers want to see the full game, not just a limited portion of it.
I actually prefer it if a caster does not jump backwards while casting a replay (unless the caster is doing an extensive analysis of a strategy like Day9). When a caster jumps back it takes away from the feel and excitement of the game. Instead of actually being engaged in the game it only reminds the viewers that "Oh yeah, it's a replay."
^ same here, I hate it when someone jumps backwards. It totally kills the "live" feel of the game. The aim is to be good enough covering what's really important that you don't ever need to jump back. Leave that for post-game in-depth analyses, like the ones Day9 does (aside from his regular casts).
On June 18 2010 13:08 mcneebs wrote: Tasteless and SDM however, have tremendous synergy. They feed off of one another, fill the "downtime" with anecdotes or theory, but when the action picks up again they both rise to the occasion.
I think it's very unfair to expect people on Skype to work as well as two people in a room together.
I don't expect people to work as well together. That would be foolish. I do feel however that Tasteless and SDM worked much better off one another than Tasteless and LS. Both may be great at what they do, but it was just that the personalities clicked.
Again, I'm not saying that A level players can't put on a good show, I'm saying that if putting on a good show is what you're after, do a little more pregame about what both caster's role is. Obviously it's harder sitting in your living room trying to sync up with a guy half way across the world, but I just feel that more focus should be put on the presentation and less on the insight (for those aspiring to become "renowned" casters).
Even half an hour discussing things like leading into color and minimizing dead air would help a lot of people who are running two casters at a time, or how to handle an "unexpected" event (IE if the color guy is talking when some huge cheese is discovered. Does he continue talking or hand it back over to the main caster etc.)
On the topic of letting yourself go (which I think casters need to get better at in general), here's a fabulous example by the master himself, CholeraSC:
I've been trying to put up some videos, and am still surprised at just how hard it is.
It's about as taxing as playing the game. You have to pay attention to multiple players, their actions, production, the battles, and pokes. Oftentimes with the videos I've put up, mostly mine, though a few that have other players, I've just tried to follow the action. It's quite difficult to stay ahead of it, all while speaking coherently about what's going on.
Through what I've posted, I think I've become better at it, but it's a process. I'm going to echo a lot of previous posts when I say that it (and I) will get better over time. People are still acclimating themselves to both the differences from BW as well as the controls that Blizzard put into the replays.
I enjoy day[9], makh, psy, totalbiscuit, and when I want to turn my brain off, hd and husky.
Great post. I didn't realize how much people are analyzing the commentators.
For me, the worst thing I see my self do is mistakingly saying things like probe instead of drone, or zerg instead of protoss.. Another thing I am personally working on is not saying "uh".
It's extremely easy to catch mistakes when your just watching. I watch my videos and catch a lot of minor mistakes. Specially if the commentator is doing more than just commenting on what is happening... Just keep that in mind when you want to "throw your monitor out the window" when we make these kinds of mistakes...
If you are watching someones stream or VOD and you see something they can improve on or you have a good suggestion... tell them!
HDH did cast in the same room, and it didnt get any better from what it normally is. it doesnt solve the overlap problems.
i think it can work though. alot of the podcasts coming from tl have really good synergy and diversity
This is because they're both solo casters who just focus on play by play, there isn't any diversity between them so they don't gain much from casting together over alone. When it's a casting team, for it to work there has to be roles (most of the time they come naturally) so it's clear who should be talking when. Day9 obviously talks a lot (arguably too much when with a partner) but he's very good at asking his co-caster questions so they are both adding useful, interesting stuff. Another great example of this is djwheat, probably the closest to a professional e-sports caster in America, who is well aware he doesn't have the best knowledge, and so brings out his co-casters knowledge to supplement his play by play. I'm sure you'll see this at devastation with ssf4.
On June 19 2010 02:53 AlgeriaT wrote: On the topic of letting yourself go (which I think casters need to get better at in general), here's a fabulous example by the master himself, CholeraSC:
I never got into the Broodwar scene, but is that really what people consider as 'good' commentating? I'm all for getting excited especially during final matches, but some of his word choices are just abysmal.
I prefer casts where the observer/commentator is not franticly clicking around and feeling the need to fill any gaps and lows in action with commentary. Appreciate the silence, and use it to sink more deeply into the game, when the action builds up - then ramp up your excitement and commentary.
If there is nothing exciting going on (i.e. just players macroing up), then either be silent, or you can build anticipation for what might/will happen. There is always a potential for something exciting to happen (if player A attacks now, player B will be in real trouble), it makes the game fun even if the players dissappoint and fail to live up to the expectation.
I'd personally prefer a cast that is mostly silent, just a bit of commentary to help me follow along with the action, point out things of interest and make me feel like I'm not alone but sharing the experience with someone. Always nice to get things pointed out to me that will help me understand the game better and make my own game better. Low-energy casts are fine for me as long as it does not come from the caster being bored/distracted/unfocused.
On June 18 2010 13:08 mcneebs wrote: Tasteless and SDM however, have tremendous synergy. They feed off of one another, fill the "downtime" with anecdotes or theory, but when the action picks up again they both rise to the occasion.
I think it's very unfair to expect people on Skype to work as well as two people in a room together.
I don't expect people to work as well together. That would be foolish. I do feel however that Tasteless and SDM worked much better off one another than Tasteless and LS. Both may be great at what they do, but it was just that the personalities clicked.
Again, I'm not saying that A level players can't put on a good show, I'm saying that if putting on a good show is what you're after, do a little more pregame about what both caster's role is. Obviously it's harder sitting in your living room trying to sync up with a guy half way across the world, but I just feel that more focus should be put on the presentation and less on the insight (for those aspiring to become "renowned" casters).
Even half an hour discussing things like leading into color and minimizing dead air would help a lot of people who are running two casters at a time, or how to handle an "unexpected" event (IE if the color guy is talking when some huge cheese is discovered. Does he continue talking or hand it back over to the main caster etc.)
A bit offtopic, but: Maybe Tasteless and SDM had a better dynamic overall, also I felt that Susie's game knowledge wasn't so high, but if you watch GOM season 2, and then season 3 right after, you will see that Tasteless had much more energy and enthusiasm in season 2. I don't know why, if he had more fun casting with Susie or if he just changed after doing it for 3 season, but I felt a big difference in his casts between seasons.
I'm not the most popular caster in the world (SaharaDrac), but I do have a pretty solid little following. The toughest part of the OP's suggestions is covering all the different aspects of the current situation (production tab, tech paths, etc.) during a transition. It's so very easy to forget those little tabs or to mention some turd burglar's photon cannon wall in shape.
All in all though, I very much enjoyed reading it, I kind of wish you had wrote more.
i particularly agree with the OP's point about casters prioritizing big battles way too much. some people have told me focusing on the primary fight is more entertaining and watchable, but as someone just probably above average at sc2, i really always want to see what the players are doing while the battle is going. that kind of stuff helps me learn and appreciate the game and the players more. i get to see their timing, reactions, and just overall macroing while microing. i've seen vods where the casters miss a zerg putting up a spire, entirely. that can be such a gamebreaking thing if not scouted and unexpected, and the building takes so long i don't get how it's missed.
i disagree with his point on giving background information during the beginning of a game. i think it's good that they give general information on each map, even if it's repetitious.
that being said, i really have enjoyed our beta casters, and i hope our criticism only helps them improve.
I think the casters should accept a few basic things about their audience: 1. If they play the game then they understand the lingo, so it’s safe to use it (not epic fail and QQ but macro and micro) 2. A viewer didn’t randomly stumble upon your channel by seeing it on the front page of YouTube, if they are watching it’s because they have at least some form of interest in the game or at least the genre, this means if you say “micro” and they don’t know what it means they will look it up. 3. New players are likely introduced to the game by a friend, if that friend showed them your channel and you say “Wow look at that blink stalker micro” the friend can easily explain it.
Don’t shy away (as someone else suggested) from using the proper terminology for actions in the game as it deters from the professionalism of your cast. At the same time, try to stray away from commonly used phrases and internet memes (terrible terrible damage) try to speak as if you were talking to your boss or at an interview (doesn’t mean don’t get excited and shout because we all love that).
Now, I watch HD Husky D9 and occasionally TB so I’m going to analyze each of their style and what I think they can do to improve.
TotalBiscuit: You’re energy is outstanding, and you can keep it going for an entire game, which is quite impressive. Honestly, I’m not too sure what to tell you to improve on (other than cast more games!) though I’m sure others can point out something. Your casting style is very similar to my personality so when I’m watching you I feel like we click and it makes me enjoy the cast that much more.
Fuck Bitches, Cast Starcraft, don’t do both at the same time.
HD: You’re the one who got me into the Starcraft scene, before I saw your casts I just played casual BW with my friends at school from time to time but I came across your channel when searching YouTube for SC2 clips and never looked back. I watch everything you post and really enjoyed the HDH (much love). However, you have some tendencies that sometimes deter from your casts. For example, you use the phrase “oh, this is interesting” quite a bit and often you almost sound surprised that it happened which sometimes makes me question your understanding of the game. I think it would help your casts a lot if you tried to vary your expressions a little bit.
Husky: HD’s casts introduced me to you (and you two inevitably let me to TL). When I heard the two of you were hosting a tournament I was ecstatic. I think your energy is excellent, it’s always awesome to hear you having a nerdgasam when something crazy happens or nukes start dropping everywhere. Kittens are awesome. I believe you could work on adding more insight into your games, doesn’t have to be Day 9 style insight but even something along the lines of returning to a player base after a critical scout or a large battle to see how he reacts and then comment briefly on it “Wow he just saw the stargate, will he get a hydra den or go for more queens?”
Day 9: Your biggest flaw is never answering my questions. On a more serious note, your casts are excellent and have really helped improve my gameplay. I love how you pause a game to go back and talk about why the players are making the decisions they are making and what is important to focus on and how to avoid overreacting in a certain situation. Your live casts are filled with energy and an occasional “HOLY SHIT DID YOU JUST SEE THAT” which is always a good way to keep viewers entertained. When you co-cast though, you tend to steal the spotlight because your flabby nerd body is just filled with so much insight you can’t get it out quick enough.
I have learned and will thusly crush people. (Your best line IMO)
Much love goes out to all the casters, I appreciate the time you put into what you do.
Anyways, hope this helps the casters I watch and any budding casters can learn from my opinions of other casters.
On June 19 2010 06:04 STS17 wrote: I think the casters should accept a few basic things about their audience: 1. If they play the game then they understand the lingo, so it’s safe to use it (not epic fail and QQ but macro and micro) 2. A viewer didn’t randomly stumble upon your channel by seeing it on the front page of YouTube, if they are watching it’s because they have at least some form of interest in the game or at least the genre, this means if you say “micro” and they don’t know what it means they will look it up. 3. New players are likely introduced to the game by a friend, if that friend showed them your channel and you say “Wow look at that blink stalker micro” the friend can easily explain it.
Don’t shy away (as someone else suggested) from using the proper terminology for actions in the game as it deters from the professionalism of your cast. At the same time, try to stray away from commonly used phrases and internet memes (terrible terrible damage) try to speak as if you were talking to your boss or at an interview (doesn’t mean don’t get excited and shout because we all love that).
Now, I watch HD Husky D9 and occasionally TB so I’m going to analyze each of their style and what I think they can do to improve.
TotalBiscuit: You’re energy is outstanding, and you can keep it going for an entire game, which is quite impressive. Honestly, I’m not too sure what to tell you to improve on (other than cast more games!) though I’m sure others can point out something. Your casting style is very similar to my personality so when I’m watching you I feel like we click and it makes me enjoy the cast that much more.
Fuck Bitches, Cast Starcraft, don’t do both at the same time.
HD: You’re the one who got me into the Starcraft scene, before I saw your casts I just played casual BW with my friends at school from time to time but I came across your channel when searching YouTube for SC2 clips and never looked back. I watch everything you post and really enjoyed the HDH (much love). However, you have some tendencies that sometimes deter from your casts. For example, you use the phrase “oh, this is interesting” quite a bit and often you almost sound surprised that it happened which sometimes makes me question your understanding of the game. I think it would help your casts a lot if you tried to vary your expressions a little bit.
Husky: HD’s casts introduced me to you (and you two inevitably let me to TL). When I heard the two of you were hosting a tournament I was ecstatic. I think your energy is excellent, it’s always awesome to hear you having a nerdgasam when something crazy happens or nukes start dropping everywhere. Kittens are awesome. I believe you could work on adding more insight into your games, doesn’t have to be Day 9 style insight but even something along the lines of returning to a player base after a critical scout or a large battle to see how he reacts and then comment briefly on it “Wow he just saw the stargate, will he get a hydra den or go for more queens?”
Day 9: Your biggest flaw is never answering my questions. On a more serious note, your casts are excellent and have really helped improve my gameplay. I love how you pause a game to go back and talk about why the players are making the decisions they are making and what is important to focus on and how to avoid overreacting in a certain situation. Your live casts are filled with energy and an occasional “HOLY SHIT DID YOU JUST SEE THAT” which is always a good way to keep viewers entertained. When you co-cast though, you tend to steal the spotlight because your flabby nerd body is just filled with so much insight you can’t get it out quick enough.
I have learned and will thusly crush people. (Your best line IMO)
Much love goes out to all the casters, I appreciate the time you put into what you do.
Anyways, hope this helps the casters I watch and any budding casters can learn from my opinions of other casters.
I enjoy totalbiscuits commentary alot, he has a nice accent and voice and all, though the only thing id tell him to improve on is, he needs ALOT more knowledge of the game,s ome of the comments i hear him make just make me shake my head
if he can learn more about standard builds etc, i believe he'd be an amazing commentator
On June 19 2010 02:29 Gretorp wrote: From a casters point of view, I think the hardest thing is to speak in sentences and being coherent while at the same time analyzing the game and watching it. I think in general people don't even speak in real sentences other than writing. Therefore, when publicly speaking, it becomes extremely difficult. I have been trying my hardest to just concentrate on talking in sentences lately, but it's a lot harder than people think!!! That or i'm just bad at english, ggme :-P
I'd say your best quality is that you pace yourself. I think a lot of people that are new to broadcasting or public speaking get worried about silence. They rush through words and fill space with repetition.
You're very good at just speaking when it matters. This makes it calm and comfortable in a solo cast, and also allows you to complement other broadcasters.
@ IskatuMesk You where my favorite caster. Its a big shame you can't find the time needed. I would have loved to see more of you're commentating, especially more high level games. I enjoyed you're earlier stuff the most though.
Also, if you are casting from a replay, there is no reason not to jump backwards. The viewers want to see the full game, not just a limited portion of it.
I disagree with this. It annoys me immensely when the commentator pause and jumps back. Unless its a deep build analysis, please don't. Slow down the tempo at most, or wait until the match is over and then do the jump around.
I would like to see more dual commentator casts, and even though there where some painful silences and general awkwardness in the Europe vs Asia show match series, and even the HDH where they sat together. I would endure that, it just adds so much when two commentators hit it off and enjoy the same things.
I agree with the points here, and sure, there's improvements that can be made. I would note, though, that in Korean broadcasts, there is an official observer, who's only job is to move the camera smoothly and accurately, and capture every second of important action as well has hidden moves, and glimpses of macro, as well as switching over to first person view, with nice graphics to give good transition. Until our shoutcasters are as well polished and well-funded, I don't think we can be thaaat picky about the job they are doing. The only thing that maybe irritates me is when the wrong player is named. I think that goes away for the most part with official observers though.
I just wanted to add that casters who think eSports is going to take off in the US and who want to garner the biggest & widest audience possible are going to have to stop dropping words like "retarded" and "gay" as descriptors of stuff they think is bad. At least in most of the US, outside of Starcraft culture & 12-year-old playground talk, using those terms as insulting words isn't "omg pc police!!!"--- it's just considered offensive & obnoxious. Lots of people are gay. Lots of people are mentally retarded. Lots of people have friends or relatives who are one or the other. Irrespective of the fact that SC casters use the terms without meaning to offend those people, no one likes hearing those terms used as if people who are one of those things are some sort of lower form of life. So cut it out.
On June 19 2010 06:04 STS17 wrote: TotalBiscuit: You’re energy is outstanding, and you can keep it going for an entire game, which is quite impressive. Honestly, I’m not too sure what to tell you to improve on (other than cast more games!)
What I will say is that there is a reason why I haven't been putting out much material over the last couple of weeks. I can't talk about it yet though, fuck I wish I could.
I guess since this has become something of a general feedback thread. These are my big 3.
HD: You are blessed with a perfect casting voice. You sound calm, confident, and intelligent. You are also able to bring the excitement when it is necessary. You are also able to keep talking without it becoming awkward or useless, which is nice. Might just be a benefit of your sexy voice. HAX. My girlfriend even loves your voice. I think time is all you need to get a little more confident on mechanics and to improve the insight you offer. For the most part, you're more entertaining than educational, and I'd like it to stay that way. This last bit applies to Husky as well.
Husky: As others have said, your energy is what earns you a spot in the center of my heart. "forcefield to the face", focusing on something ridiculous like a sideways probe-- I love it. You are the most entertaining caster available and the only one who can get away with rambling useless shit. "Get away with" probably isn't the right choice of words because I love it. Just a naturally hilarious person.
Day[9]: I think you should take your clothes off sometimes for the camera.
Gonna check out some of the others mentioned in this thread now :D
On June 19 2010 06:04 STS17 wrote: TotalBiscuit: You’re energy is outstanding, and you can keep it going for an entire game, which is quite impressive. Honestly, I’m not too sure what to tell you to improve on (other than cast more games!)
What I will say is that there is a reason why I haven't been putting out much material over the last couple of weeks. I can't talk about it yet though, fuck I wish I could.
I see a connection between this and Tasteless and Blizzard... yeah... good luck to you two! :D
On June 19 2010 00:14 Chill wrote: I really don't like when casters try to make something out of nothing. A lot of times you just decide to attack, or your units just stop at a position. Not because you are trying some high level feint and this or that, just because you're busy doing other things. It's not a timing attack, it's not a fake or gambit, you're just fucking moving out. Casters these days make players seem like robots that are constantly mathematically monitoring their army composition for the best time to attack.
TotalBiscuit is the first commentator i've heard with a true commentators voice! Would be great to hear him get some experience by the side of Day9 or another more analytically biased commentator.
No brain farts at all from the videos i've seen and great energy and coherence. Nice!
'HuK is moving out with Zealots and Stalkers.' I have a video feed too, I can see what you're seeing, you don't have to tell me what you're seeing. If you have some insight as to why it's happening, however, by all means articulate it.
Eloquence
If you often have trouble completing your sentences in a manner that makes sense, you are painful to listen to. Sorry, but it's true.
and
General Pet Peeves Probably Specific to Me or People Like Me
- Baseless early game speculation It's 30 seconds into the game, what do you think is going to happen here based on your random ladder games on Bnet? Come on. If the game were so predictable we wouldn't be watching in the first place.
- Overpositivity He's great, you're great, everything everyone does is great. Not the case. I know many casters are not nearly as skilled as the players they are casting, and would likely get crushed by any one of them in a 1v1, but don't let that deter you from constructively criticizing play. You may be way off base and wrong but that's better than just saying everything everyone does is awesome.
- Verbiage Terms are common for a reason, you don't need to break out your thesaurus to be interesting. Players build units and buildings. They don't conjure, effectuate, materialize, or enact them. They don't will them into being from the nether reaches of space. Just say build.
- Overused words This is just something that bugs me but I understand why it happens and so it's easier to forgive, just something to work on.
---
At the end of the day, thanks to all casters for their work in trying to keep Starcraft interesting and appealing to even us bad players.
On June 19 2010 08:21 Millsington wrote: - Verbiage Terms are common for a reason, you don't need to break out your thesaurus to be interesting. Players build units and buildings. They don't conjure, effectuate, materialize, or enact them. They don't will them into being from the nether reaches of space. Just say build.
- Overused words This is just something that bugs me but I understand why it happens and so it's easier to forgive, just something to work on.
So I should say 'build' every time, but no more than once. GOT IT! =)
just to let people know my definition of materialize.
It's a positional advantage where it can yield a material advantage. So when I say, this person needs to materialize an advantage, it means that the person must utilize the positional advantage to create some sort of material advantage. Clearly some people misunderstand that, even when critiquing :O! ^^
just to let people know my definition of materialize.
It's a positional advantage where it can yield a material advantage. So when I say, this person needs to materialize an advantage, it means that the person must utilize the positional advantage to create some sort of material advantage. Clearly some people misunderstand that, even when critiquing :O! ^^
If he has a positional advantage, how is it immaterial though? If he could do more with it, that's not really "materializing" it since he already has position. I know what you mean, to turn a positional advantage into something quantifiable like a unit advantage. I kind of agree with others and don't think "materialize" fits, even if you only thew it around once or twice instead of always. I think that sort of thing really undermines your casting.
That and saying something like "macroeconomic advantage" or "macroeconomically" instead of just economic. It just comes off as a vain attempt to sound smart and doesn't really add benefit to your comments, which usually are insightful to begin with. Not to mention you aren't really talking about macroeconomics in the instances that you say it, you're kind of just adding two words together that are only relevant individually, and I don't really know why
a positional advantage is not a material advantage. You can have a positional advantage but not have a material advantage. you're making your position net you some material gain. Why you troll and you're being a douche for no reason is beyond me though. I have verbiage that isn't stellar i agree, and I have never tried to hone my casting skills as I consider myself a gamer more than a caster, and I try more in gaming than casting. The casting is just for other people.
So thank you for being a douche and a troll. It makes me want to continue helping the community.
edit: I do appreciate your comments, i just hate your way of conveying it. You're unnnecessarily hostile. Perhaps you need to learn to word your comments constructively :O!
Whoa Gretorp calm down man. I don't see what was douche-like in Floor's post at all. I suppose if you intentionally read it with a sarcastic or condescending tone then yes but just reading it normally it just feels like he is expressing his opinion.
While I've only seen a couple of your things outside of you co-casting with D9 I do have to say I do agree with "macroeconomic" being the wrong choice of words. Especially since the term "macro" refers to "macro management" not "macroeconomic"
On June 19 2010 09:21 Gretorp wrote: a positional advantage is not a material advantage. You can have a positional advantage but not have a material advantage. you're making your position net you some material gain. Why you troll and you're being a douche for no reason is beyond me though. I have verbiage that isn't stellar i agree, and I have never tried to hone my casting skills as I consider myself a gamer more than a caster, and I try more in gaming than casting. The casting is just for other people.
So thank you for being a douche and a troll. It makes me want to continue helping the community.
edit: I do appreciate your comments, i just hate your way of conveying it. You're unnnecessarily hostile. Perhaps you need to learn to word your comments constructively :O!
Wasn't trying to be a douche, I thought I was complimenting your insight but pointing out how it's sometimes marred by your insistence on using unique terms. I think you and Day make an awesome team
In regards to whether that is materializing or not, I think it's a difference of opinion on what can be considered tangible advantages in a game. Surely you can have a unit advantage but not be utilizing it with them on the completely wrong side of the map or something just as easily as you can have a positional advantage not be capitalizing on it. I don't know if one is more or less "material". I don't know if that's what you are trying to say, or if you are just trying to say they need to exploit or capitalize on their advantage
Not sure if its been said or not but one thing i noticed alot of casters keep doing (mainly Hd and husky) is talking about the small rush distances or the destructable rocks on scrap station.. You constantly say it in many casts where as i belive pretty much everyone alrdy knows that shit and it doesnt need to be explained every vod.. Also go on about previous patch versions alittle bit to much imo
keep up the good work, everyone can always improve
On June 19 2010 10:42 Luoson wrote: Not sure if its been said or not but one thing i noticed alot of casters keep doing (mainly Hd and husky) is talking about the small rush distances or the destructable rocks on scrap station.. You constantly say it in many casts where as i belive pretty much everyone alrdy knows that shit and it doesnt need to be explained every vod.. Also go on about previous patch versions alittle bit to much imo
keep up the good work, everyone can always improve
I think it's been mentioned once or twice in this thread already, the general consensus was for new players who are watching that stream for the first time or just learning about the game to know a little bit about the map or recent changes that occurred that are effecting the metagame.
I do think this is because the game is in beta and once release happens patches will become fewer and further between meaning that concern goes away and people will begin to assume players know what the map looks like.
I find the camera to be the biggest problem. Not to be rude, I enjoy HD and Husky, but they are just off the mark when it comes to knowing what's going on half the time so I don't mind at all when they're wrong. Because I do know what's going on.
The problem is when they watch all the wrong stuff on the map! Or when they don't even notice when an expansion falls, or hidden tech, ugh. I hate it when a bad player controls the camera
On June 19 2010 09:21 Gretorp wrote: a positional advantage is not a material advantage. You can have a positional advantage but not have a material advantage. you're making your position net you some material gain. Why you troll and you're being a douche for no reason is beyond me though. I have verbiage that isn't stellar i agree, and I have never tried to hone my casting skills as I consider myself a gamer more than a caster, and I try more in gaming than casting. The casting is just for other people.
So thank you for being a douche and a troll. It makes me want to continue helping the community.
edit: I do appreciate your comments, i just hate your way of conveying it. You're unnnecessarily hostile. Perhaps you need to learn to word your comments constructively :O!
I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not going to, but I did see this post after I initially posted so I'll just say:
that I really appreciated when you, gretorp, and day9 casted the.. whatever it was. I enjoyed it thoroughly and always thought of you being a player - not a caster. With that in mind, I had fun with the commentary.
And also, you weren't that bad of a commentator either. You knew what you were talking about and I could tell.
You guys made a good team. Day controlled the camera (he's the only one that does it well lately), and you added nice bonuses with your expertise of.. terran.. i think it was.
And actually following that... Casters should NEVER let their player-favoritism get in the way of casting each team as evenly as possible. I've seen too many games where the more famous of the two players will have the replay-cam constantly in his base, and the other play gets almost completely neglected.
Unless he is trying to teach/steal a build. Like DayNine did with that one Europeon guy... who was it again?
I agree that the phrase macroeconomic is pretty redundant, but I think we're kind of nit picking here. I totally understand where gretorp's coming from in what he's trying to say (I think) and it's because I'm a lower rank player, where I think this type of behaviour is more common.
I've got an advantage, be it hidden tech, map control, income, or skill. But failure to act on those advantages means I'm not materializing from them. Do I have that right? For example, me and another player are in a TvT, we've each got 4 rax, but I've got 2 2 hidden expos. I'm way ahead economically, but we're still only producing from 4 rax each. I've got an advantage, but since I'm not building more unit producing structures, I'm failing to materialize my lead.
Totalbiscuit is just so good for average new players with his enthusiastic and energy filled commentary, while offering small strategic insights.
Then you have people like gretorp who analyze the situation inside and out but with less excitement/improper sentences or w/e(i personally don't give a fuck your terran analysis is spot on 90% of the time)
Then you have day9/tasteless who are sorta in between and have that strategical knowledge available but sometimes generalize it more for the masses to understand, which i think is perfect in general for there mass audiences.
DJWheat you will be there someday but you still have more games to cast and more knowledge to gain, but your still amazing.
Overall I'm so happy we have a lot of dedicated commentators out there, my skill would not be where its at without the help of klazart/diggity/gretorp/artosis/day9.
And actually following that... Casters should NEVER let their player-favoritism get in the way of casting each team as evenly as possible. I've seen too many games where the more famous of the two players will have the replay-cam constantly in his base, and the other play gets almost completely neglected.
Unless he is trying to teach/steal a build. Like DayNine did with that one Europeon guy... who was it again?
Yeah that's the one. Day9 sort of falls outside of the realms of most of what people are saying though. He's more of a teacher than a commentator, and so he can do whatever the fuck he wants
On June 19 2010 14:00 Emon_ wrote: I'd like to hear a cast from OP. Until then he should be thankful for whatever comes his way.
Just because you don't do it doesn't automatically mean that you can't comment/critique it. If that were the case (which is what you're implying), then basically every caster for every and any type of sport (e-sport or otherwise) would be out of a job.
On the point of dual casting.. Broadly speaking, there are three categories of casters:
those who focus on playing (and are really good in it) and do casting occasionally, for example Gretorp those who focus on casting (i. e. TotalBiscuit) those who do both equally (the one and only Day9)
Obviously, almost everyone loves Day9 - he is a good player, a good caster and has been part of the community for years. On top of that he has a great sense of humour, so everything works great for him. In my opinion this is why the combination of him and Gretorp did not work as well as it could have. Day9 has a lot of game knowledge and experience and most of the time he notices the important bits on his own. So, when co-casting he would quite often pass the ball to Gretorp (or whoever he is casting with) and his partner has to come up with something even when there is nothing important to say (because Day9 has already said it), which leads to awkwardness.
Of course, it takes time to create a good partnership as well, I'm not saying that Day9 is doing something wrong. However, my guess is that in the future we will have quite a lot of dedicated* commentators partnering with various dedicated* gamers. If the commentator is providing the entertainment and the gamer the additional strategy analysis, they can live in a happy symbiosis, while casters with a style similar to Day9 will probably do predominantly solo commentary.
* Hopefully at one point they will become pros but it's a bit too early to speculate about this.
On a side note, some people seem not to realise that viewers are not just newbies and experiences ones. I am the sort of viewer who is following his favourite players - perhaps because I'm coming from WC3 background, where there was almost no casting but replays are easy to find. So I haven't seen Husky's mass queens stuff but have watched Strelok and Nazgul's games on Schicky's channel. At the same time there are people who like a given commentator and stick to their channel.
On June 19 2010 01:17 Sinensis wrote: Am I the only one who thinks the OP doesn't actually say anything at all other than it's important to focus on what's important and different casters have different styles? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong.
I was trying hard to give as few examples as possible because I did not want this to be a thread focused around what I do and do not like. I'm glad that people are sharing their thoughts and that some casters have joined in as well. Thus, my work here is done and I can fly into the sunset.
On June 19 2010 08:21 Millsington wrote: I'll throw my hat into the ring here.
Radio commentary
'HuK is moving out with Zealots and Stalkers.' I have a video feed too, I can see what you're seeing, you don't have to tell me what you're seeing. If you have some insight as to why it's happening, however, by all means articulate it.
This isn't radio commentary, its play by play commentary and it's essential to especially Starcraft because as viewers, we don't have entire view of the 'field'. This stuff need's to be brought to our attention and you can't expect solely expert commentary every time a player makes a move.
Otherwise get used to over analytical commentary or deafening silence. Which ever you prefer.
On June 19 2010 08:21 Millsington wrote:
Eloquence
If you often have trouble completing your sentences in a manner that makes sense, you are painful to listen to. Sorry, but it's true..
No one does this on purpose so that's not really constructive is it. There are some great callers out there that do tend to trip up a bit, but I'd rather they keep at it and continue to get better rather then give up and lose some great contributors to he community.
On June 18 2010 12:13 Voronoff wrote: Check out TotalBiscuit. He's an interesting counterpoint to much of the current style of Starcraft shout casting.
I love Totalbiscuit's analysis of matches as they go on. He also gives great background on the players, but I ABSOLUTELY cannot stand his accent. It frickin' KILLS me T_T
I can only ever watch one or two matches at a time from him :/
He does his casting accent very well, don't get me wrong. He gets what he's going for perfectly, it just isn't for me.
That's all fine and well, itzbrandnew. But everyone has an accent. Whatever language a person speaks they grow up with the accent that's native to their locality. I can tell, for instance, that Day[9] is from the south and west in the US respective of where I'm from (Philadelphia).
Accents happen and basically can't be changed (without really really hard work). If you don't like certain accents, which is totally reasonable, the answer is more casters.
I'll agree with most of the posters here that piles of these casters suck. I'm not the most brilliant player in the world, and yet I find myself sitting back and counting/correcting errors in how miscellaneous casters are presenting material. To be perfectly honest, the casting quality is about on the same level as random forum posts about the subject. The casters react like dumbfounded viewers when something happens, fail to explain it well/correctly, and use boring lingo to convey things that are be accurately summed up with better language.
Clean your acts up yo, there can't just be one decent caster in the community if this is really supposed to be an ESport!
That's all fine and well, itzbrandnew. But everyone has an accent. Whatever language a person speaks they grow up with the accent that's native to their locality. I can tell, for instance, that Day[9] is from the south and west in the US respective of where I'm from (Philadelphia).
Accents happen and basically can't be changed (without really really hard work). If you don't like certain accents, which is totally reasonable, the answer is more casters.
On June 19 2010 16:00 cucumber wrote: That's all fine and well, itzbrandnew. But everyone has an accent. Whatever language a person speaks they grow up with the accent that's native to their locality. I can tell, for instance, that Day[9] is from the south and west in the US respective of where I'm from (Philadelphia).
Accents happen and basically can't be changed (without really really hard work). If you don't like certain accents, which is totally reasonable, the answer is more casters.
Edit out your double post
Ok, I would have edited my post if not for this comment. So instead I'll just respond. As I was reading thread I saw someone say TB sounds like a race car announcer... and since then I can't stop listening to him. He flows so much better now in my head, I guess I just needed to find some sort of rhythm. It is almost like the awkwardness of trying to understand various accents at first, apparently I just needed to give it time to grow on me.
On-topic: I really feel like in dual casts someone needs to be the dominant caster, and it needs to be decided before the cast starts. If the "lesser" is talking and the "greater" starts talking, the lesser needs to get quiet fast. Maybe that's just my opinion, but even in sports casting, yes they may be in the same room, but when the "greater" begins to talk, the "lesser" shuts it immediately.
Lag has an effect on this, so I don't put this one up too high, I just hate the "greater" trying to jump in with the beginning of what he's about to say and trying to get a word in edgewise over and over and over again. Kind of like We... Well ya.... Well what's hap... etc
On-topic: I really feel like in dual casts someone needs to be the dominant caster, and it needs to be decided before the cast starts. If the "lesser" is talking and the "greater" starts talking, the lesser needs to get quiet fast. Maybe that's just my opinion, but even in sports casting, yes they may be in the same room, but when the "greater" begins to talk, the "lesser" shuts it immediately.
With most sport commentary teams, the 'lesser' as you put it, would probably be the expert commentator as he is commentating the least, and the 'greater' would probably be the colour/play by play commentator, yes?
Whats interesting in this example is normally the expert commentator has priority over the colour commentator and he is only interrupted by the colour commentator when something amazing is taking place. But I guess what I'm trying to say is it's situational.
Anyway I agree. I'd like to see dual casters make a conscious effort to settle into either of those roles when commentating rather then playing round robbin with the mic. I understand it can be hard though with commentators like Day9 who are so damn good at both.
There's only one thing i cannot stand and that's a nervous mouse and screen. WHEAT for instance constantly selects and draws boxes. If you look at kor casts the mouse moves very smooth and screen jumps are followed by one or two corrections at most so your eyes stay focused.
Healthbars on all units is another point. I just think it's so pointless having bars all over your screen. Give me health of selected units you want to highlight and the rest i pretty much figure out when the unit is dead.
On June 19 2010 14:00 Emon_ wrote: I'd like to hear a cast from OP. Until then he should be thankful for whatever comes his way.
Really now, you might as well as say that Roger Ebert isn't allowed to review any more movies until he's directed some himself. I can't speak for my fellow casters, but I know I'm not offended when somebody takes a little time to try and improve casting in general via constructive criticism. 1 guy constructively crticising is worth more than 1000 sycophants saying you're great.
On June 19 2010 14:00 Emon_ wrote: I'd like to hear a cast from OP. Until then he should be thankful for whatever comes his way.
Really now, you might as well as say that Roger Ebert isn't allowed to review any more movies until he's directed some himself. I can't speak for my fellow casters, but I know I'm not offended when somebody takes a little time to try and improve casting in general via constructive criticism. 1 guy constructively crticising is worth more than 1000 sycophants saying you're great.
Agreed 100%, whenever a caster starts to become famous in any regard they need to stop taking things so personally as they cannot please everyone, but to work on the criticism without getting offended really distinguishes those that will go far.
On June 19 2010 10:42 Luoson wrote: Not sure if its been said or not but one thing i noticed alot of casters keep doing (mainly Hd and husky) is talking about the small rush distances or the destructable rocks on scrap station.. You constantly say it in many casts where as i belive pretty much everyone alrdy knows that shit and it doesnt need to be explained every vod.. Also go on about previous patch versions alittle bit to much imo
keep up the good work, everyone can always improve
I think a lot of this is due to the lack of action in the first two minutes of a game. Unless comentators have prepared something ahead of time to fill this two minute gap they're going to get nothing out of the game to talk about so most of them will just fill it with what they know about the map or players. That's why we're constantly hearing about the scrap station rush distances and the Zerg expanding strat on metalopolis and that Sen the Korean is from Korea and fighting for Korean pride.
Maybe this could be a tip for commentators if it hasn't been mentioned already: Spend some time before a match thinking about something interesting to say for the first two minutes of the game before anything happens.
On June 19 2010 02:53 AlgeriaT wrote: On the topic of letting yourself go (which I think casters need to get better at in general), here's a fabulous example by the master himself, CholeraSC:
I never got into the Broodwar scene, but is that really what people consider as 'good' commentating? I'm all for getting excited especially during final matches, but some of his word choices are just abysmal.
Well, it might have been stupid of me to post that example out of context. I don't really mean it as an example of good casting in general. It's kind of a culmination of all his Hyuk casts up to that point (Cholera hade become kind of known for ripping on Hyuk because of how much he sucked at first), and the fact that he just freaks out so hard when Hyuk finally manages this incredible turnaround just had me laughing for like an hour straight - and represents a level of excitement I'd like to see current casters allow themselves to reach more often.
To me, Cholera really is the embodiment of all things good when it comes to casting games. He's knowledgeable enough about the game to make correct analyses (not on the level of professor Day9, but still way beyond simple play-by-play), he's got a perfect voice which can range from calm and methodic to all-out screaming, he lets his speaking tempo vary with the game, he's got his completely own personality and spends a good portion of the time just improvising and being funny as hell (Husky is also getting awesome at this imo), while not losing track of the game itself.
I dunno, check out some of his other casts on Youtube, the majority of them are more "normal" than the example I posted.
There are certain "artistic" disciplines where people really can't take criticism very well. Writing, drawing, and singing are three of them. Casting definitely belongs. So many people take criticism of their casting so personally, and sadly this is what is holding those casters back from becoming better. It's perfectly natural to be insulted or angry at people criticizing you, but what really separates the pros from the amateurs is their ability to objectively evaluate their own work. The best may get mad, but they also get better.
As a new caster this thread has been really helpful. I don't take citicism personally, I love it, I want to keep getting better at both my play and my casting.
On June 19 2010 23:44 Vincere wrote: As a new caster this thread has been really helpful. I don't take citicism personally, I love it, I want to keep getting better at both my play and my casting.
A RL radio DJ friend of mine put it well. If you've got a face for radio, you need to have thick skin :D
On June 19 2010 23:44 Vincere wrote: As a new caster this thread has been really helpful. I don't take citicism personally, I love it, I want to keep getting better at both my play and my casting.
A RL radio DJ friend of mine put it well. If you've got a face for radio, you need to have thick skin :D
Why are people bashing when commentators say certain words of phrases a lot? That's part of their identity as commentators. It's like like when Dick Vitale says "baby", each commentator has his own way of imprinting his personality into the game. If you don't like it, watch somebody else, but don't make the commentators change who they are.
Something I would recommend is to make several takes if necessary.
Obviously this only applies to commentating a replay for a VoD, but it just makes sense. I've seen a lot of videos where the commentator spills his drink, gets a phone call, gets tongue-tied, or some other interruption to the flow of the video. It would be quite easy, if it's a replay, to just stop, start over, and try again. I'm not saying they should script everything, but if it takes 2-3 tries to get it to the quality you'd like, that's fine.
Because if you go through a replay and cast it once, then you'll have a better idea of what to say, what's happening, and what's important (or exciting, depending on your style of commentary). Obviously practicing your commentary first means you can't cast it without having watched it first, but I'm not sure how that's a bad thing. As long as you can still project some enthusiasm into the game, having watched it already shouldn't detract from your cast. It will, however, eliminate a lot of the mistakes casters make on a regular basis (like saying "um" a lot, or something of the like). Additionally, it's a lot harder to miss stuff.
The OP mentions that it's okay to rewind a replay, but I would argue that it is not, because it interrupts the flow of the game. If you're doing Day[9]-style commentary, obviously pausing and rewinding is quite useful for educational purposes, but if you're a purely entertainment-oriented caster, the flow of the game can be crucial to how fun the game is to watch. If you rehearse the cast beforehand, there's a significantly smaller chance that you'll miss anything.
To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play.
Obviously if it's a live cast, none of that applies, except that you'll end up doing each cast 3-4 times (possibly more if you're as neurotic as I am) and therefore get 3-4 times as much practice as you would have normally.
But yeah. Casters should definitely rehearse first. I'm sure there will be exceptions to that rule, but I think it applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster.
On June 18 2010 20:00 Cedstick wrote: Hahah, that Tasteless clip. Classic.
Ya, I can still remember that lol.(OFF TOPIC WARNING: OFF TOPIC) Was so hilarious that I showed it to my friend when I was like 10 and we were having a random fight(we always had a random fight that goes on for weeks whenever we are bored of just overhearing other people's conversations or just being bored, etc.) about panda bears and I said, "EVEN TEENAGERS AND ADULTS LIKE PANDA BEARS" and he said, "YA RIGHT SHOW ME ONE TEENAGER SAYING THAT" and I just showed him the video and he just stared at me and finally said, "How?" I won the argument and at the same time got him to watch SC in his free time, although sadly he never bought it or spent the time to get a beta key for SCII, instead he bought WOW. >_<
On Topic: KEEP MICRO AND MACRO!!!!!!! Why would you not say that when the whole community knows the terms and understands them?!? Only people who are not true SC lovers wouldn't know the terms. Unless of course you're a Blizzard employee, then you might not know them.
On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote: To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play. t applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster.
Ok now this I definitely disagree with. Casting is not scripted, it is not a play, there are no lines to learn. Watching a replay means that everything you say that is not definitive fact, you are effectively faking. You know who has won and lost, you knew what they did to get there and your audience is not retarded, they'll spot it if you're pretending to be surprised, feigning enthusiasm or acting like you're mystified or unsure as to what a player is going to do when you really already know.
I'd also like to point out that the essence of shoutcasting has and always will be, the live environment. If you cannot cast a game well, blind, then you will never get anywhere and you should practice until you can. Unless you are a doing an educational VoD, there is no reason to watch the replay beforehand. Heck I'd go as far as it say it's 'cheating'. Oh, look how prophetic you are, you spotted all of the strats before they happened, magical! Allow me to bow down to you good sir.
On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote: To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play. t applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster.
Ok now this I definitely disagree with. Casting is not scripted, it is not a play, there are no lines to learn. Watching a replay means that everything you say that is not definitive fact, you are effectively faking. You know who has won and lost, you knew what they did to get there and your audience is not retarded, they'll spot it if you're pretending to be surprised, feigning enthusiasm or acting like you're mystified or unsure as to what a player is going to do when you really already know.
I'd also like to point out that the essence of shoutcasting has and always will be, the live environment. If you cannot cast a game well, blind, then you will never get anywhere and you should practice until you can. Unless you are a doing an educational VoD, there is no reason to watch the replay beforehand. Heck I'd go as far as it say it's 'cheating'. Oh, look how prophetic you are, you spotted all of the strats before they happened, magical! Allow me to bow down to you good sir.
Okay, I think you misinterpreted my post.
Actually, I reread it and I miscommunicated what I was trying to say. So first off, sorry for not being clear. As a matter of fact, I ended up focusing entirely on only half of what I wanted to say, so sorry for implying basically a completely different Idea than what I was trying to imply.
I see what you mean, and I can definitely see your point of view, and, partially, I agree.
What I actually was trying to say is that casting should be split into two parts: rehearsed videos and live videos. Obviously I ended up focusing only on live videos in my last post, and that definitely implied that I thought that's what every video should sound like.
What I was trying (failing) to say is that there need to be more rehearsed videos. They don't necessarily have to be educational videos; they can still be fun and entertaining, but in a slightly different way. These videos would articulate a different type of entertainment. Enthusiasm doesn't necessarily have to be surprise. It can simply have a sort of "this is a really cool game" tone. It has the added benefit of containing fewer mistakes by the caster (since it's rehearsed), of having fewer things in the game missed, and also it's basically impossible for the game to suck, since if you are rehearsing your cast and the game is boring as hell, then you simply pick another replay.
Certainly there should be a differentiation, especially in the form of a slight "disclaimer" that briefly describes whether the following video is an emulation of a live cast, or more of a "hey this game is cool and I thought I'd share it" sort of thing.
I was not suggesting (though it sounds like I was -- again, that's my mistake -- sorry) that this sort of rehearsed method completely replace the emulated live cast.
However, I do respectfully disagree that there is "no reason" to watch a replay beforehand (even purely in the context of entertainment-oriented videos), as I feel it adds entertainment of a different sort that still showcases the caster's individual style and voice.
I apologize if any of the above sounds as though I'm trying to offend; it's getting rather late and my wording probably isn't what it should be. I assure you I was attempting to be as respectful as possible and intend absolutely no ill will.
--EDIT--
The quote (the one you used):
On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote: To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play. .
This quote was worded incredibly poorly. I am not actually sure why I said most of that, since it just further implies something that I'm not trying to imply. Additionally, it sounds like I'm saying all casters who don't rehearse sound like idiots, when I'm definitely not trying to say anything like that.
I just thought since I'm redacting, like, 90% of my post, I'd give this paragraph some special attention since not only is it the quote you used, but it is easily the most poorly-worded paragraph of the bunch.
Also the analogy is pretty much not at all accurate. A much better analogy would be a play that is scripted versus a performance by an improvisation troupe. Both have their merits, and neither is any sort of 'how to act' demonstration, and both showcase the performers' skills, but in different ways.
Man, the more I read my first post, the dumber I feel. I'm really sorry for being such an idiot, and hopefully this post at least KIND OF makes up for it.
There is definitely some awesome feedback here . Some of it I completely disagree with but this is one of the first threads to actually have really solid feedback with minimal flaming.
I know I'm personally always looking to improve my commentating. I watch all my own videos several times to try and pick out things I think others would find annoying.
If you have seen ALL my videos (you poor thing) you might notice I sometimes will get a phrase that I completely use to death before I realize it. Right now I say things like 'out of control' and 'to the face' a little too much.
Something else I think I can improve on is the production tab! I cast SC1 games for 8-10 months and am just used to having to spot things manually. For this reason I havent quite completely gotten used to the production tab but I honestly shouldnt miss a single hidden tech because it is now implemented.
I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
While I know I have a lot of room for improvement I think I am consistently trying to get better. No matter what you do not everyone is going to like it. If I gave 1000 people $100 each for free I can almost guarantee you someone would complain that I didnt give them $200. That aside, there is always room for improvement and I absolutely love what I do, so ACTUAL feedback and criticism is greatly appreciated
On June 20 2010 04:40 crimsonsentinel wrote: Why are people bashing when commentators say certain words of phrases a lot? That's part of their identity as commentators. It's like like when Dick Vitale says "baby", each commentator has his own way of imprinting his personality into the game. If you don't like it, watch somebody else, but don't make the commentators change who they are.
It is, as pretty much everything, complicated and subjective. Sometimes repeating something is funny. Sometimes only the person who is repeating it thinks that it's funny. Sometimes it's just an unconscious repetition of a certain word or expression. We all do it; however, those who speak in front of a larger audience have the chance to annoy much more people by doing it. Oratory is an art and mastering it is hard - but it is definitely worth it.
On June 20 2010 05:53 Seltsam wrote: Certainly there should be a differentiation, especially in the form of a slight "disclaimer" that briefly describes whether the following video is an emulation of a live cast, or more of a "hey this game is cool and I thought I'd share it" sort of thing.
If the caster does not mention anything specific, I assume that this is the first time they see the game. In case it is not, some background information could be great, especially at the very beginning of the game when there isn't that much to say. Even without spoilers knowing what is going to happen can be a great way to raise the expectations and highlight something particularly interesting in the game. I'm pretty sure that in the future a lot of casters will go through a lot of replays on x6 to see whether they are worth uploading.
Edit: spelling, posting on an internet forum after spending the whole night out is never a good thing.
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote: There is definitely some awesome feedback here . Some of it I completely disagree with but this is one of the first threads to actually have really solid feedback with minimal flaming.
I know I'm personally always looking to improve my commentating. I watch all my own videos several times to try and pick out things I think others would find annoying.
If you have seen ALL my videos (you poor thing) you might notice I sometimes will get a phrase that I completely use to death before I realize it. Right now I say things like 'out of control' and 'to the face' a little too much.
Something else I think I can improve on is the production tab! I cast SC1 games for 8-10 months and am just used to having to spot things manually. For this reason I havent quite completely gotten used to the production tab but I honestly shouldnt miss a single hidden tech because it is now implemented.
I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
While I know I have a lot of room for improvement I think I am consistently trying to get better. No matter what you do not everyone is going to like it. If I gave 1000 people $100 each for free I can almost guarantee you someone would complain that I didnt give them $200. That aside, there is always room for improvement and I absolutely love what I do, so ACTUAL feedback and criticism is greatly appreciated
Day[9] isn't just a commentator, though. He's also the THOUGHTHAMMER! By which I mean he's focusing on teaching mediocre players how to get better at StarCraft because he wants the game to get really big and have a diverse scene where players of any skill level can get involved. If he's a bit repetitive about the finer points of strategy and tactics, or how expanding away from your opponent is advantageous for Zerg players, that's just his teaching style.
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
I think you would do well to try a commentary with a proper colour commentator, one who is known to be a very good player anyhow. At this point you have an audience that will watch whatever you do so this is the perfect place to try some experimenting, its not going to lose you viewers. While you may know the audience is not looking for 'complete analysis' how do you know the reception of introducing a colour commentator untill you have tried it?
It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
On June 21 2010 20:42 Owompa wrote: It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
Haters gonna hate Gretorp, don't worry.
This is exactly the attitude that hinders casters, not helps them. You have no idea how many times I've heard the 'haters gonna hate' style of white-knighting, in which fanbois and sycophants assure the caster that everything is fine. Mollycoddling, a word I so rarely get to use, but here it is, that's what an awful lot of people do to online media producers in all their forms. They need to quit it, at once, because most online media is bad. It's bad because it acquires a fanbase (everything has a fanbase, no matter how terrible or ridiculous) who lay on the praise and white-knight the producer if anyone should dare tell the truth or criticise. As a result, the caster/producer in question gets complacent, convinced of a falsehood that everything is fine and they can't possibly get any better. Their work stagnates, they become unable to objectively look at their work and how to improve it, they view all criticism as personal attacks and never learn from any of it.
Every prominent caster in this community is an adult, they can handle criticism, harsh or otherwise. They do not need to be defended, they certainly do not need 'haters gonna hate' sycophancy and let's be completely honest here, if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be casting at all.
I know for one that mixing stuff up during presentations and the like is a perfectly normal thing to happen. It just annoys me when for example a phoenix goes down and the caster says a viking did.
Other stuff I have noticed is mixing town hall buildings up ( Nexi, Command centers, Hatcheries ). This is mostly during HD's casts. Again, no biggie, just really annoying at times =).
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
This is probably true. When a lot of my friends started playing they followed your videos religiously and most still do even though I have to personally mute you if I watch your videos and could never enjoy them (no offense). All of my casual playing friends think you're the best thing ever. The casual audience is the largest audience so you're definitely performing to an group that doesn't get much love elsewhere.
On June 21 2010 20:42 Owompa wrote: It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
Haters gonna hate Gretorp, don't worry.
This is exactly the attitude that hinders casters, not helps them. You have no idea how many times I've heard the 'haters gonna hate' style of white-knighting, in which fanbois and sycophants assure the caster that everything is fine. Mollycoddling, a word I so rarely get to use, but here it is, that's what an awful lot of people do to online media producers in all their forms. They need to quit it, at once, because most online media is bad. It's bad because it acquires a fanbase (everything has a fanbase, no matter how terrible or ridiculous) who lay on the praise and white-knight the producer if anyone should dare tell the truth or criticise. As a result, the caster/producer in question gets complacent, convinced of a falsehood that everything is fine and they can't possibly get any better. Their work stagnates, they become unable to objectively look at their work and how to improve it, they view all criticism as personal attacks and never learn from any of it.
Every prominent caster in this community is an adult, they can handle criticism, harsh or otherwise. They do not need to be defended, they certainly do not need 'haters gonna hate' sycophancy and let's be completely honest here, if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be casting at all.
I see your point, but some of these people are being a bit too harsh and mean to people that are honestly just trying to help build the community. Maybe I am reading into the criticism too much.
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
I think what people irks people isn't the lack of analysis. It's when there is analysis and it's wrong. Like, simplified information is fine, but incorrect information isn't. That's the crux of what TL rage has been against in the past, with Klaz and Combat-ex.
Even simple things like "We see a fast ______" Most of the time when I hear this, it's not fast timing. It may be the first thing they built after a Barracks or Gateway, but that doesn't make it fast. FE or something like fast voidray/stargate would be an exception, but usually it's something like "fast CyC" or "fast techlab."
I completely agree. If anything, us casters get way too much positive feedback, and useless negative feedback. While it's nice to be told how awesome you are, its very difficult to improve when the only negative comments you get are things along the lines of you 'you suck!'.
I'm really glad for this thread. Especially because it has been so civil, and the feedback often quite nuanced.
I just want to make it clear that I do in fact appreciate criticism and I'm open to it without a doubt. If you ever hear me on my stream, I have no problem admitting my faults and trying to adjust them. I dont have some complex.
What I do have a problem with is how people express their criticism. Saying "you're trying to commentate like you're smart when you don't know anything," and "perhaps you should look into (MU) more, because I think there's a lot you're missing" give two different responses. If you look what I said before, it wasn't the contents which bugged me but the way it was worded and the way it sounded.
It might've been a miscommunication however, and maybe i read into it too much. For that, I deeply apologize. I have a notebook of things i compile of things to work on. I have written a lot of stuff down, and I won't be saying macroeconomic anymore :-P! I didn't even realize I said that to be honest!
Anyway, Thank you for this thread. Again I apologize for some of my misinterpretations, but I really thought you were trolling, and it enrages me to see troll as I insta ban everyone that does it in my stream. Perhaps you will see a whole new gretorp caster in the future. It might be in English AND coherent ^^!
On June 18 2010 12:01 JoshSuth wrote: All valid points, but really I think in the long run, people won't remember that you missed that zergling run-by while discussing the benefit of chrono boosting as much as possible. They'll remember your voice, your excitement level, and the amount and quality of the videos you produce. If I was the hypothetical best commentator ever, but I only uploaded 1 replay every 2 weeks and it was riddled with hardware lag, nobody would watch no matter how insightful or how perfect the tone might be. Thoughts on that? When you think of 5 different commentators, if you even can think of 5, what are the first three things you use to describe them? Is it how often they have the income tab open compared to the army tab, or is it much more generic?
Completely agreed with regards to your "thoughts on that." Completely agreed. Unless you had some exclusive rights (like, BoXeR is your best friend IRL and you are the only one with those new reps of him exposing Flash's weakness)
The first three things I use to describe them...rather than give a simple answer, I'll let you decide where these things fall.
I wonder if people can figure out who I'm talking about, because I'm not mentioning names. I think these things sort of stick with more people than myself (spoilers due to length.)
-Too loud, but largely energetic in a very positive way. -Amusing, not 24/7 ROFL status but definitely down-to-earth gamer that makes me LOL sometimes. -Mid-level player.
-Really nice voice, but lacks energy sometimes, perhaps due to, and leading to : -Experience, he has a lot of it. Oftentimes skips over the overly basic things, which I like. i.e., Higher-level analysis. -Very good map focus. The video centers on what I want to see a heavy majority of the time.
-Nondistinguished/common/not unique/bland -Commonly makes very obvious errors in saying something about the game, seems low-level, commonly fails to look at a (e.g.) stalker to see if it has blink, but instead searching the production tab, and trying to find a twilight council that hasn't been built. -i think the success Really is largely due to good timing (think market Product entry on this one) rather than awesome skillz.
-High-level analysis, makes me say "hmm, maybe that is something I didn't think of" way more than anybody else, and in that vein, analysis-based. -Funny, yet strikingly engaging. Good music, good vibes, has not let his massive success go to his head at all, very down to Earth. -Nerdy, yet uniquely so in a very stylish way. Modest. Knows that SC1 skill does not equate instantly to SC2 skill. Knows he, among all of us, has much to learn.
-Sexy ass voice. -Shitty ass music during casts. -Kind of acts above the viewers in chat interactions.
So, I think it's more general stuff than specific, but since I chatted with you (Josh) on various IRC/ustream etc and you're a boss, I decided to write way too much and let you draw a conclusion. Hell, I don't even remember what we were talking about anymore.
Edit: Goddamnit, I was on page 1 and quoted???? FML lol.
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
I think you would do well to try a commentary with a proper colour commentator, one who is known to be a very good player anyhow. At this point you have an audience that will watch whatever you do so this is the perfect place to try some experimenting, its not going to lose you viewers. While you may know the audience is not looking for 'complete analysis' how do you know the reception of introducing a colour commentator untill you have tried it?
100% agreement here. The one problem I have with HD casting with husky is that you don't gain anything from it. Husky has a solid call on his own and can make games exciting. I'd say it's an opportunity to pull in super high level players who have a ton of in game insight but less casting skills to comment on the play, while keeping things entertaining.
On June 19 2010 14:00 Emon_ wrote: I'd like to hear a cast from OP. Until then he should be thankful for whatever comes his way.
Really now, you might as well as say that Roger Ebert isn't allowed to review any more movies until he's directed some himself. I can't speak for my fellow casters, but I know I'm not offended when somebody takes a little time to try and improve casting in general via constructive criticism. 1 guy constructively crticising is worth more than 1000 sycophants saying you're great.
Agreed 100%, whenever a caster starts to become famous in any regard they need to stop taking things so personally as they cannot please everyone, but to work on the criticism without getting offended really distinguishes those that will go far.
Allow me to retort. Someone that decides to cast a game spends a lot of energy on the process. He needs to present himself to the world in a respectable way in a lot of different areas. The content needs to be interesting, the quality of the audio, other technical aspects need to be looked after. The video needs to be uploaded within a reasonable time. Then he needs to have a good sense about the game as well. He's putting it all on the table and showing the world what he's made off.
On the other hand replying to a video, or topic about a caster, takes close to zero effort. "Yeah, I like" or "No I don't" as if it matters what random post you spew out. If you have something to say put some effort into it and present it to the world. Create a topic about a caster and share your view. But you won't - because deep down you don't care. You just type whats inside you without a thought about anything else. And to top it all off - you compare yourself to Roger Ebert.
I take back my original claim and apologize to the OP. He did a great job and I was far too fast in judging him. The post was well written with a lot of detail and suggestions to casters. More posts like this are welcome.
One thing that I really, really hate is when a caster is obviously getting excited and his voice goes up, then suddenly goes in to whisper mode. Why do that? Just go crazy on that mic, there's no need to tone it down. This is mainly directed at HD.
On June 24 2010 01:58 Chaoz wrote: One thing that I really, really hate is when a caster is obviously getting excited and his voice goes up, then suddenly goes in to whisper mode. Why do that? Just go crazy on that mic, there's no need to tone it down. This is mainly directed at HD.
I just watched the 3rd game of the Tasteless vs. Day9 Showmatch again and noticed that HD confused 4th base with 4th expansion. Don't know if it has been mentioned in here, but 4th base is actually the 3rd expansion^^
I agree with a lot of the needed feedback in this thread. I think it must be pretty difficult to do an awesome job casting and definitely appreciate all of the hard work the casters have put in to their efforts to help build up excitement around SC2.
With that said, if I had to criticize a caster it would probably be HD. I really love the excitement he brings to the games and he and Husky arrange some really nice matches. One thing that bothers me though is that I find the more I listen to his play-by-play, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of his by the minute analysis.
For example, in one game in the showmatch series between Tasteless and Day9 on Metalopolis, Tasteless decided to take a gamble and lift his CC to a high-yield patch at the center of the map. There exists a narrow, but definite, timing window where a player can take that mineral patch and overwhelm the opponent with marines before they are prepared. Day9 scouted him quickly after that, but HD kept highlighting the resource collection rate tab and how it was slowly peaking over Day9s collection rate and stated that Tasteless was in a "really good position now" or something like that, without mentioning
1) How long Tasteless wasn't mining at all during the transfer 2) How low his worker count was in relation to Day9 3) That Day9 pretty much knew he was all in with marines after scouting him 4) How far behind Tasteless was in getting his Orbital Command or any other tech finished 5) That he hadn't started mining gas etc, etc.
I don't want to sound like I'm picking on him, but saying a player is in a good position after he is quite clearly not in a good position after being scouted at an awkward time is a little irritating. If this was just a one time occurrence, then I probably wouldn't post about it, but since this thread is here I felt the need to mention this.
If I had one suggestion to HD it would be that he should take a look at some of the threads that analyze the value of taking the gold mineral patches and how they break down some the true collection rates while saturated vs blue mineral patches. In general, I find he overvalues the strategic importance of the gold mineral patches while neglecting more obvious shifts in power that are more apparent to seasoned players.
Nothing personal against HD, I know he is trying to make his cast exciting and hell I will still watch his casts but I think as he plays the game more, his in-game sense will get much better and he'll be less likely to make these types of errors.
i think it would be important to note the distinction b/w casting in a commentary for a showmatch, tourney, etc. and casting in a daily or analysis. As a specific example, Day[9] does both and it is imperative to see how he varies his casting simply b/c of the situation in which he is placed in.
in the former, where he is casting for a tourney game, he points out interesting details, emphasizes particular tech patterns and predicts what the player[s] may do. However, he does not linger for too long on a particular strategic element or tactic, or focus too heavily on economical benefits of a particular deviation. "Just the broad strokes" w/ a couple of fine touches here and there. This is important in a live [or casted from replay] environment b/c it is supposed to supplement the viewer's thoughts while watching, efficiently explain a significant point and subsequently move on to continued action.
in the latter, during his daily's, which can each be considered ~hour long post-game analysis, it is important for a caster to delve further into the strategies and tactics employed by the players. This could range from displaying the economical benefits of certain moves by bringing up the resource collection rate tab, pausing the video to explain the significance of particular terrain advantage, or to explain the the general patterns of play usually seen in games and how certain plays deviate from the norm and why they are important. That is why the analysis of a 15 minute game could end up taking the better part of half an hour.
it is important to distinguish the two in this discussion b/c each serve a different function. So to say that Day[9] delves too deeply into the "why's" and "how's" generally, would be inaccurate b/c it really depends on the purpose of and the type of cast. Likewise, while we can claim that Husky and HD do not perhaps tend to elaborate on a lot of subtleties of play, keep in mind of the type of casting they are doing, b/c that will usually dictate the level of insight that they will be able to provide.
Casters make Starcraft better. They can make boring games seem interesting, and when an exciting amazing game happens,their emotion increases the emotion that I feel. Koreans are really the best at this + Show Spoiler +
PLAYGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!
Every Starcraft match is a story. And the caster is there to make the story better.
What really gets on my nerves during a commentary is when the caster says something I know not to be true. The most obvious is when a caster doesn't see the 12 Nexus for some reason :O but there are other circumstances. I watching some old GOM matches and no matter how terrible the player was, Tasteless kept hyping up that player. It's ok to say that Jaedong has a 99% chance of crushing Lomo into oblivion.
The most annoying though (as stated before in this thread) is horrible strategic insight. This is unforgivable. Not every 2-Hatch muta is all-in and not every DT-centric strategy is a DT rush. Dropping a DT then expanding is NOT a DT rush!!!
Another thing, DAMN YOU DAY9 I MISS BROOD WAR COULD'T YOU AT LEAST DO A FEW MATCHES OF BW IN THE BETA DOWNTIME YOU BASTARD
I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
My main complaint is that they never go to the production tab or go to bases to see what people are doing, and EVERY god damn game some tech comes out and they're like OH MY GOD WHERE DID THAT MOTHERSHIP COME FROM LOL :D
One thing I hate is that a lot of commentators constantly misspeak. Things get mixed up all the time: colors, players, positions, races, workers, basically everything.
I also see casters get too caught up in the moment and say things that are just plainly wrong. For example, "he only has about six zealots" when 10 are clearly selected on the screen by the caster himself. There was one HDH game (I think it was an HDH game, at least) where they were wondering where a colossus went when about 10 seconds ago it clearly exploded on the screen. This kind of thing really takes away from the experience.
I have to be honest, I really can't watch anybody but day9 or djwheat because of how inexperienced and just flat out wrong a lot of the other casters are. day9 may over-analyze from time-to-time and i've heard wheat misspeak on more than one occasion, but they are both very entertaining, engaging, and knowledgeable about the game. They cover general areas for anyone who doesn't know much about the game to follow along, and they point out smaller things for people who do.
HD and Husky have done a lot hosting their own tournament with prizes from their own pockets, but, quite frankly, I cannot stand either of them as casters. They don't know what's going on most of the time, misspeak often, and use too many phrases like "epic fail" and "terrible, terrible damage" for me to get any enjoyment out of their casts.
This is just my opinion, but I sincerely hope that future sc2 casters look to day9 and djwheat as role models for how to deliver a good cast. Chill isn't bad, either.
On June 22 2010 02:11 Gretorp wrote: so i'm back ^^!
I just want to make it clear that I do in fact appreciate criticism and I'm open to it without a doubt. If you ever hear me on my stream, I have no problem admitting my faults and trying to adjust them. I dont have some complex.
What I do have a problem with is how people express their criticism. Saying "you're trying to commentate like you're smart when you don't know anything," and "perhaps you should look into (MU) more, because I think there's a lot you're missing" give two different responses. If you look what I said before, it wasn't the contents which bugged me but the way it was worded and the way it sounded.
It might've been a miscommunication however, and maybe i read into it too much. For that, I deeply apologize. I have a notebook of things i compile of things to work on. I have written a lot of stuff down, and I won't be saying macroeconomic anymore :-P! I didn't even realize I said that to be honest!
Anyway, Thank you for this thread. Again I apologize for some of my misinterpretations, but I really thought you were trolling, and it enrages me to see troll as I insta ban everyone that does it in my stream. Perhaps you will see a whole new gretorp caster in the future. It might be in English AND coherent ^^!
There's one element that this thread has kinda been missing, and maybe it's because players are kind of given a pass (understandably) but I just wanted to throw it out there.
I think it's completely unrealistic to hold players like you and orb to the same standards of a caster while you're commentating on your own games that you're playing live.
"I'mma hide these vikings over here then flank him once stim is done. Boppin this clown!"
This is totally fine IMO. Playing ladder games and streaming/commentating at the same time has got to be tough as nails. Don't worry about your commentating if it's going to impact your game play at all. I think most would agree.
On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote: I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. The streamer knows everything that's going on. After you get into the zone and get "tunnel vision", sometimes you just want to stick to your build because it's what you've gone over again and again. You're thinking about what your opponent might be doing. You're thinking of a million other things.
The caster can pull back and say, he's gotta stop making marines! Colossus range is almost done! Because he isn't playing in the dark and he's not faced with 1000 different decisions. I highly doubt casters are doing this so they can stroke their mighty e-peens.
On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote: I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
This crosses the line from criticism into personal griping. So your preference is heavy play-by-play, that's cool, but that's not how sports commentary in any form works. You will have a lot of play-by-play, but there will also be strategic analysis, usually not by the same guy, but it'll be there. Strategic analysis, I've been told, is fairly important in a strategy game.
Wow. Well I couldn't sleep so I took the time to read all these posts.
There is a lot of good and bad points, that's for sure. Good points and constructive criticism are awesome and needed for commentators to adjust, or improve.
I myself, only started casting just over a month ago. I started off by just casting some random games of my own, and a group of players that had been chatting on the forums. I think I made the mistake by accepting the offer to commentate for some high profile events, early in my casting career. I think it did more harm than good. Within 2 weeks of casting, I was asked to cast for the SC2CL and an inControl show match... and then a week later, to cast the GLHF.it tournament. These all included high end players. This brought in a LOT of viewers (almost 4000 to the whitera/TLO finals). My unpolished and still learning style was then compared to casters like HD, Husky, and even more, to Day9.
While I appreciate being compared to and even mentioned in the same paragraph as these guys, it really caught me off guard and demoralized me. Day9 is one of the most insightful starcraft players/casters I've ever listened to. Husky and HD have over a year under their belts, and 75,000+ subscribers. I have maybe 300 now.
Here are a few thoughts of mine:
1. Dual casting should be left to casters that mesh well, and have practiced enough. Nothing is more annoying than 2 casters that are talking about different things, or have 2 different casting styles.
2. Solo casting is tough. If you haven't done it, don't complain about something being missed. Some of these players are reaching 150-250 APM at times....How can you expect a caster to see it all, and explain/talk about it? It takes a lot of time and practice to be able to balance yourself between mini map, main screen, production/units tabs, ALL THE WHILE, commenting it with a good flow.
3. Give new casters a break. I may be biased towards this, because I am one. Honestly, if the caster has a good voice, good charisma, and a decent grasp of the game/language, why be harsh or complain about the casting? Sure another caster could be doing it, but maybe Day9 or HD or Husky weren't available? This is JUST the beta right now, and there are already so many tournaments, leagues, and show matches. Can 3-5 casters REALLY cast it all? No. What about when the game goes live and there are 2-5 times the number of events to cast? No. Especially not if its a hobby and not a paid job. If people keep up non-constructive criticism, new casters will leave, and the community will never grow in that sense.
4. It's impossible to please everyone. I understand that. I can't tell if some people would prefer a play by play cast, or a detailed analysis. In my opinion, solo casting a live event, should mostly be play by play, with a bit of insight. There is more hype, more enthusiasm, and no time to pause, rewind, or just talk about something, because another thing will be missed. Replay casts have the luxury of pause, and can do more detailed analysis. For dual casts, ideally I see it as 1 caster being the play by play guru, and the other player offering insight or analysis. Seems like that would work well.
Anyway. When I started casting, I'd come home from work and be like "Ya, I have like 5 games to cast tonight, woot". I still REALLY enjoy casting, and would love for it to be more than a hobby...but lately it just feels like nobody appreciates the work beginner casters do, because they would just rather listen to the guys that are vets and have been doing it longer. It's demoralizing to say the least. I might keep up with it for now, and see where it goes. Yesterday I did an interview/dual cast with Artosis on a few of his games. I really enjoyed that and I hope people like it. It was my first time doing something like that.
This is getting long and I didn't expect it to be. Thanks for all the advice and insight. It's nice to see a discussion on casters.
You know what i hate more than a poor caster? A poor caster hater. Everyone is a critic, no one is going to cater to whatever stupid stuff you think so go F yourself, OP.
I got to admit I didn't read this thread until now cause I figured it turned into a flame war. But awesome thread and all points are dually noted. Thanks for the pointers (I know we're guilty of some of these things) I always love hearing from the fans!
On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote: I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
On June 25 2010 23:16 DC Elite wrote: You know what i hate more than a poor caster? A poor caster hater. Everyone is a critic, no one is going to cater to whatever stupid stuff you think so go F yourself, OP.
You know what I hate more than a poor caster hater? A poor caster hater hater. No seriously, shut the fuck up, that is nonsense and nobody appreciates it.
On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote: I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
I have to disagree with you also. This prevents the spectators from learning the game more. If you know your right and you know the thing that should be done let everyone know.
For example I'm Toss player. In PvT if I see a player going mass Stalker against a Siege Tank/Raven/Ghost army it is helpful to the people that may not know to explain why this is a bad idea and what would be better instead. It will help to point out that the tanks rape stalkers, PDD nullifies them, and Ghosts make them just melt and the Toss player should instead go for something else.
Remember not every single player that watches knows all the intricacies of Starcraft. Many really don't have a clue what's going on but now they know if they run into that situation to not do these things.
On June 25 2010 13:59 fdsdfg wrote: I really hate it when a commentator points out what a player should or shouldn't be doing on a strategic level.
To say he's not microing his stalkers well is fine, but to say 'i'm really surprised he is still pumping marines, he would be much better off transitioning into factory build'. You're there to commentate the match as it's happening, not try to prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about. Let that be a byproduct of casting the games.
You realize that is what most pro sport's caster do? They say "oh they should pass here, or run, or punt". Welcome to the wide world of sports...
The balance of overall strategic analysis with play-by-play and colour is something that every caster has to find on an individual basis. What demographic are you aiming for exactly? What style suits you best? What level of knowledge do you have at your disposal? Do you have a co-caster, is he/she suited to a particular role more-so than you are?
The idea that there should be no strategic analysis however is ridiculous, what are you going to fill the time with for one thing? Even SHOUTcraft has it (and it's usually wrong) and that's perhaps the most play-by-play centric cast around at the moment.
I like this thread, as I [just started to] upload a few of my own VODs...
Glad to see it has evolved into a (mostly) constructive feedback thread and not a shitstorm flamefest.
In reply to TotalBiscuit (and not exclusively directed at him, just that his post prompted me to reply), I do think it's a very individual basis as to how much analysis you offer as well. But there must be some. Definitely. But...Sometimes I feel that people may get bored if a caster is offering too much analysis and not enough hype. This goes for me as well, given that most of the analytical information that casters give out are things that I either consider basic or just one of those "yea i know this already". For me, the hype is in that OH SHIT moment of the caster.
But maybe that's just me needing to complement my natural abilities with those of others that I don't feel I have as much of (that shoutcrafting magic.)
In order to attract new viewers to me, I feel that I need to have more hype than in-depth analysis, but my end-game audience is a more high-level audience; and feel that a more analytical style suits me better than a HOLY SHIT LOOK AT THIS MARAUDER TAKING DOWN THIS PROBE OH MY GOD! I consider myself to be pretty highly knowledgeable about SC/SC2 and RTS games, as well as strategy planning and reactionary tactics in general...
But I just don't feel like I can attract that initial base of people without those "big-name" replay/VOD casts and some shoutcrafting; it kind of feels like some of the earlier casters have laid this foundation by being not so knowledgeable, but very excitable...I think it's definitely too early for me to assert this as correct, or to answer this question myself, but it's been bothering me, with the gravitation toward this hype-style for the casual gamer...how do you get past that "not exciting enough and I have no idea who this guy is" mode, into that "he isn't screaming into my ear, and he knows his shit" area with viewers?
Does anybody think that it's even possible to get into the "analysis" sort of casting, for high-level players? I feel that a lot of the analytical stuff is catered mostly toward entry or mid-level players, since the higher-level players already know a lot of the things that casters mention..
Ok, sorry to get somewhat off-topic. As an aside, I've read through this entire thread... There are a lot of people here with talent. Keep it up everybody.
PS: Fuck YouTube for pausing my video upload because I was watching one of Psy's casts I decided to look at from reading this thread. I'm watching it to pass time, YouTube, don't make me wait! F%$%
On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote: To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility.
Ok now this I definitely disagree with.
I think it depends on the aims of the cast. For Day who is doing play analysis, seeing the replay beforehand is probably useful, whereas if you just want to watch a game I love to hear commentators initial reactions to strange occurrences.
Another thing that I'd like to see more of is background. How did the builds of each player evolve over the beta. Is there a particular deviation on the current map, and why. What used to be preferred and why is it no longer preferred. Stuff like that doesn't come up too much in the casts I watch (excepting Day9 who somehow remembers specific broodwar games from 1995) anyway and I find it interesting to hear how builds and players grow over time.
I know I can't expect casters to know SC2 players as well as sports commentators know the pro athletes stats and history but even a little background from a couple older games would, I think, add a lot to the cast and give you something to talk about in the first few minutes.
Anyway, thanks again for all your hard work casters.
On June 18 2010 11:59 RageOverdose wrote: Honestly, I think it's better to work for what your theme is. Husky's casts, for example, are more about getting newer players into the game and just entertaining casting, but it's not as detailed as what Day[9] does, which is more of an analytical cast to explain the subtle strategies and subtle tactics of players. What if you have 1000 new viewers who never saw the older VOD's where you described the expansion patterns? So you alienate them? You don't have to do it every cast necessarily, but do it often enough so that newer players can get an understanding.
A) Like it's hard to figure out.
B) "Newer players" don't understand half the shit that's going on until they played the game themselves for a while, hence they're not watching replays.
What if you have 1000 new viewers who never saw the older VOD's where you described the expansion patterns?
Maybe they can just click on the gigantic "OLDER VIDEOS" button present in sooo many streaming sites ? Guess that's too hard to figure out as well.
Considering everyone as lazy and clueless as you are seems to be the new standard for "caring, web 2.0 hip kids"...
On June 18 2010 11:59 RageOverdose wrote: Honestly, I think it's better to work for what your theme is. Husky's casts, for example, are more about getting newer players into the game and just entertaining casting, but it's not as detailed as what Day[9] does, which is more of an analytical cast to explain the subtle strategies and subtle tactics of players. What if you have 1000 new viewers who never saw the older VOD's where you described the expansion patterns? So you alienate them? You don't have to do it every cast necessarily, but do it often enough so that newer players can get an understanding.
A) Like it's hard to figure out.
B) "Newer players" don't understand half the shit that's going on until they played the game themselves for a while, hence they're not watching replays.
becoming a good commentator is just as hard as becoming a great player. even if u got talent it takes so many hours to do a good job. thats why i appreciate so much that we have ppl like tasteless and day9 in the community, really noticeable difference from other commentators who got less experience. for new commentators, dont give up and if u get advise dont feel offended just take it as advise and try to improve from it
i got an advise for new commentators. become real good at the game, i mean like being able to halfwin tournaments then the quality of ur analysis and opinions will be alot more precise. just because u can analyse well and know how rts games work doesnt mean u will do a great job in a new game without actually being good at the game. its basically rule number 1 and this is how tasteless says in his vods to others. learning the game before actually starting to commentate is the best way to go imo. same thing goes for mapmaking )
I've just been trying to whore my youtube channel here so that people can directly give me criticism. That way I know what I'm doing right and wrong or what is a majority preference. It will also keep me from overcompensating and creating a new problem... That and get more subs, but mostly the first bit.
I agree with the excitement issue. I hear the "Im so excited right now" line from all casters - try to convey that excitement in how you speak rather than simply stating your excitement. Maybe im old school, but klazart was my favorite caster ever just because of how he could contextualize the game so well. Creating a drama arc by giving us some history on the players, building hype, and then losing it when the game is getting crazy.
Recently, I'd decided to have some fun *recording* (not live) some SC2 videos and I was shocked to find it so extremely difficult. Worse, when I playback and hear myself, I almost died. It kept me distressed for a couple of days. Do I really sound so bad?
I showed my gf what I was doing and she helped me point out quite a number of things... like repeatedly saying "right?", "so..", "ermm..", and the favorite "actually.." :p
After this experience I had a new-found respect for the showcasters. I played one of the random stuffs from Husky, and even my gf was impressed. She said his pronunciation is clear, and the words are basically grammatically perfect. He is interesting and engaging. I switched over to HD, and we do spotted more "and.." than normal, but it was great as well!
I realise it is really not easy to keep talking coherently when you're trying to analyse something and sound smart at the same time.
I'm thinking.. you can only become better at something by doing it! So I'll probably keep doing it. I have no great ambitions, but just wanna have some fun at it, and improve my fluency in expressing myself verbally. Hopefully, this will extend to and improve other parts of my life as well.
In the meantime, respect to all the casters doing their thing live.
Husky, I donated $100 to you a couple of weeks ago. You know I like you.
I don't want a shoutout; I already told you that I don't care about that, and I did it under a different ID.
What I want is you to stop doing your "mocking things" voice with a lisp.
Please?
(You are poised to be announcing stuff to exponentially more people than you are now and some non-trivial number, including me, are going to be annoyed by your lapsing into lisping to express lameness. You can also ignore this and I'll also follow you ... just some advice to help you grow w/o pissing off masses of people you so easily don't need to.)
On June 26 2010 07:41 Morrow wrote: i got an advise for new commentators. become real good at the game, i mean like being able to halfwin tournaments then the quality of ur analysis and opinions will be alot more precise. just because u can analyse well and know how rts games work doesnt mean u will do a great job in a new game without actually being good at the game. its basically rule number 1 and this is how tasteless says in his vods to others. learning the game before actually starting to commentate is the best way to go imo. same thing goes for mapmaking )
You realize how time consuming that is, to be on the level of top players like yourself and then practice commentating at the same time for months and probably years? Not many people have that kind of opportunity or commitment, so they should just do what they are able to do. It's great that we have extremely dedicated people like Day9, but it's doubly awesome that there are dozens of people who could step in.
Besides it doesn't take a tournament winner to understand what's going on strategically, even average players can see the mistakes of pros, because they have perfect information on both players. Commentating is more about paying attention and it's going to be even easier in SC2, because you'll be able to see what each player is doing from their point of view.
The best caster DUO I have ever come across would probably be Day[9] and Chill. Day[9] has been on a long search for a good co-caster for a lot of events, and Chill manages to stay coherent, interesting, on the ball, and insightful all the way through. They also trade off really well.
TotalBiscuit is sort of interesting to listen to, but his anti-cerebral approach to casting bores me after a while. He could be great with just a pinch of the philosopher in him!
HD and Husky bring tons of awesome content, and I love them for it. They do miss a lot, though. More importantly, HD is verrry hard to listen to -- his English is awkward in the extreme sometimes, not to mention littered with cliches and a boatload of "actually". Husky is much more reliable. I actually think Husky should find a new partner.
I think TheGunRun is underrated. He should get more exposure! He's also funny because he clearly learned English from the Internet, so all his heavily accented "baller" comments make me giggle. He's cool and coherent, though, so props to him.
...Edit: I had high hopes for Gretorp. I loooooove his stream. Love it. But he is not a good caster. A caster must be, first and foremost, nimble with words. Gretorp is not. He also can't think of things to say when he needs to. His T analysis is spot-on, though, so maybe he'd be better for analysis than for casting.
I have updated the first post with links to the casters mentioned in this thread
Feel free to send me a PM with your details if you want to be included (and this way we will hopefully get rid of the self-promotion in a thread about casting in general).
I've watched hundreds of Beta games. The most constructive thing I would say is for the casters to watch professional sports. The chore, at least in North America, is almost divided into a play-by-play caster and an analysis caster.
In SC2 its pretty clear the play-by-play guy should be vigilant about watching for battles and skirmishes and any meaningful unit movements. The play-by-play guy can interupt the analysis whenever there is action because it takes priority.
The analyst is there to explain strategy, past battles, and background during the lulls. The macro game would generally fall to the analyst as well. The analyst is generally prepared with background knowledge of the players, too. One thing in SC2 is all the stats are at his or her fingertips. They can be vigilantly checking out the tabs while the play-by-play is going on and bring anything important to people's attention.
And the best broadcasters of course entertain during lulls.
The thing I see about HD and Husky, mentioned before, is they both do the exact same job as play-by-play and analysts and hand things back and forth. I think they would be best served if one guy was chosen as play-by-play for the match and the other guy can do the analysis. They are both capable of doing both.
With Day 9 and Grettorp you have two guys prone to analysis. Day can do a good play-by-play but analysis is his fortee. I personally think they both could use a play-by-play caster to call the battles and add some smoothness. Grettorp also has to learn to step in during the lulls and be proactive about analysing things.
Specific constructive criticism for each caster. HD--don't guess so much at what units the person will come out with. You are wrong way more than you should be, lol. "Its an early gas--I bet he's going mass air!" Its better to just say what some of the options are, and what that player has done in past games. In addition some of your "I don't like that moves" are a bit off. Maybe simply state the pros and cons of what you see rather than your opinion. Your enthusiasm is awesome.
Husky--man you talk so fast, lol. My biggest thing would be tighten up your use of language, if you can. And talk a little slower when nothing is happening. Amp it up when the action is coming. Apart from that, I think your play-by-play and analysis are excellent. The biggest thing is coordinating with Husky and not just randomly alternating "your time to talk".
Grettorp--step into the lulls. Maybe have a check list of 5 things you could talk about and when there is no battle just start talking, instead of waiting for a prompt. One nice thing is when you do say something I listen because its not just verbal spam. I've seen you call games in the two minute mark and be right.
Day 9--move to the analysts chair. Your play-by-play is pretty good, but with the right play-by-play nerd you'd be right in your wheel-house. Overall, you are my favorite commentator.
Generally...use replays if its not a live cast. Have the analyst then speak and break it down, even at a slower speed, if needed. It is easy to note the replay time when the battle starts. Edit the video if you have to. Also use your instincts as to when its time to amp things up or step back and analyse.
That's my two cents. I'd mention TotalHalibut but he killed my wow gold farmer (actually he has the best overall feel, voice, and personality for casting, but would have to back -off the humor a bit if he wanted to take it to the next level) .
seems like i need to do more english commentary. Most of the german viewers flamed me for my bad english so i decided to stop english casts. But well, i guess i do some YouTube Videos and start a poll...
Day[9] is easily the best caster when it comes to having a cast full of good knowledge. HD and husky are fun to watch, but husky is just a clown some times.. so I unno.
I like watching some of the "smaller" casters for their own nuances, and I think I pick up a lot.
On June 28 2010 03:17 Forsti.henning wrote: omg, so much text! i finished page 2 ~_~
seems like i need to do more english commentary. Most of the german viewers flamed me for my bad english so i decided to stop english casts. But well, i guess i do some YouTube Videos and start a poll...
I enjoyed watching your english live casts and really, your english isn't bad.
The thing is that if you are German and speak in English, German people will notice their own accent and simply hate it. It's the same with me - I'm a Bulgarian student in England and I can't stand listening to other Bulgarians talk in English, even though a lot of people have even told me that they find my accent charming. At the same time I don't mind accents from other countries at all.
On June 28 2010 03:17 Forsti.henning wrote: omg, so much text! i finished page 2 ~_~
seems like i need to do more english commentary. Most of the german viewers flamed me for my bad english so i decided to stop english casts. But well, i guess i do some YouTube Videos and start a poll...
Germans are (in)famous for flaming their fellow countrymen, if you don't do things perfectly! Even if your English accent is top notch, you have still done something wrong. If only the germans are flaming you, then you're doing it right!
In general I think there are way too many that has just jumped on with this casting trend that really should have done something different, as in not casting. A lot of them lack the knowledge and terms of the game and are consistently pointing out "X should have done this" etc when it is dead wrong.
Hope we get to see more of Chill + day9 in the future
I can't stand Husky anymore, and I like him so I feel bad about that. I just don't think Husky has a "radio" voice. Husky and HD need to learn alot more about the game and stop trying to predict what happens, because they aren't of these players level. They could get better, but I think they will always be AAA casters and not Pro like Day9/Chill.
On June 28 2010 03:17 Forsti.henning wrote: omg, so much text! i finished page 2 ~_~
seems like i need to do more english commentary. Most of the german viewers flamed me for my bad english so i decided to stop english casts. But well, i guess i do some YouTube Videos and start a poll...
Personally thought your english was fine and your approach to the games was very nice to watch. Much as I love the easily excitable commentators I really appreciate listening to a relaxed cool calm and collected commentator as well.
How much of that was you having to wake up really early and not being awake is anyone's guess ;p
On July 02 2010 23:36 MonkeyKungFu wrote: In general I think there are way too many that has just jumped on with this casting trend that really should have done something different, as in not casting. A lot of them lack the knowledge and terms of the game and are consistently pointing out "X should have done this" etc when it is dead wrong.
Hope we get to see more of Chill + day9 in the future
I'm sure a lot of them will drop off after a while. Hell, I might, but as of now I just hope to get better with constructive criticism and practice. Having subs doesn't hurt either.
Every caster needs to start using a thesaurus. Its incredibly annoying when every mistake is a "blunder" which is only modified as a "little bit of a blunder" or a "huge blunder". Seriously some games, each player seems to end up making 3-4 blunders.
The first building to be put up is always "an early..." even if its at 14-15 food - that's not early.
If you don't do something crazy from the start like TLO, your build is "standard." Unless your doing replay build analysis like a Day9 Daily, describing a player's build during a tourney as "standard" or "normal" just makes me, as the viewer, unexcited and uninterested.
My last criticism is when a caster calls the game (or a match up) for Player A way too early because, for example, Player B's fast reaper totally failed. From an analytic standpoint, you're probably right, but it takes the viewer out of the game's drama completely. Think of a professional sports broadcast, even if a team takes an early, massive lead, they will hardly every call the game until the closing minutes because they want you to think you're still going to see a great game (so you don't change the channel)...but it makes for better viewing.
Day[9] and Chill (sometimes gretorp) are the only people I listen to, when I see an interesting game and it's not one of the listed above commentating, I feel like I am getting worse by listening .. I play it safe and mute the volume.
Edit: Sometimes orb is alright to listen to too. Not sure of the other's skill level to really bother listening to.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/xtf_ftc/brick_wall.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/xtf_ftc/thLogo.png)
![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/xtf_ftc/photos095.jpg)
(he's been getting way better lately).
. It would take too many lines to explain myself so I'll just say 'yes!'
