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Something I would recommend is to make several takes if necessary.
Obviously this only applies to commentating a replay for a VoD, but it just makes sense. I've seen a lot of videos where the commentator spills his drink, gets a phone call, gets tongue-tied, or some other interruption to the flow of the video. It would be quite easy, if it's a replay, to just stop, start over, and try again. I'm not saying they should script everything, but if it takes 2-3 tries to get it to the quality you'd like, that's fine.
Because if you go through a replay and cast it once, then you'll have a better idea of what to say, what's happening, and what's important (or exciting, depending on your style of commentary). Obviously practicing your commentary first means you can't cast it without having watched it first, but I'm not sure how that's a bad thing. As long as you can still project some enthusiasm into the game, having watched it already shouldn't detract from your cast. It will, however, eliminate a lot of the mistakes casters make on a regular basis (like saying "um" a lot, or something of the like). Additionally, it's a lot harder to miss stuff.
The OP mentions that it's okay to rewind a replay, but I would argue that it is not, because it interrupts the flow of the game. If you're doing Day[9]-style commentary, obviously pausing and rewinding is quite useful for educational purposes, but if you're a purely entertainment-oriented caster, the flow of the game can be crucial to how fun the game is to watch. If you rehearse the cast beforehand, there's a significantly smaller chance that you'll miss anything.
To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play.
Obviously if it's a live cast, none of that applies, except that you'll end up doing each cast 3-4 times (possibly more if you're as neurotic as I am) and therefore get 3-4 times as much practice as you would have normally.
But yeah. Casters should definitely rehearse first. I'm sure there will be exceptions to that rule, but I think it applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster.
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On June 18 2010 20:00 Cedstick wrote:
Hahah, that Tasteless clip. Classic.
Ya, I can still remember that lol.(OFF TOPIC WARNING: OFF TOPIC) Was so hilarious that I showed it to my friend when I was like 10 and we were having a random fight(we always had a random fight that goes on for weeks whenever we are bored of just overhearing other people's conversations or just being bored, etc.) about panda bears and I said, "EVEN TEENAGERS AND ADULTS LIKE PANDA BEARS" and he said, "YA RIGHT SHOW ME ONE TEENAGER SAYING THAT" and I just showed him the video and he just stared at me and finally said, "How?" I won the argument and at the same time got him to watch SC in his free time, although sadly he never bought it or spent the time to get a beta key for SCII, instead he bought WOW. >_<
On Topic: KEEP MICRO AND MACRO!!!!!!! Why would you not say that when the whole community knows the terms and understands them?!? Only people who are not true SC lovers wouldn't know the terms. Unless of course you're a Blizzard employee, then you might not know them.
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On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote:
To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play.
t applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster.
Ok now this I definitely disagree with. Casting is not scripted, it is not a play, there are no lines to learn. Watching a replay means that everything you say that is not definitive fact, you are effectively faking. You know who has won and lost, you knew what they did to get there and your audience is not retarded, they'll spot it if you're pretending to be surprised, feigning enthusiasm or acting like you're mystified or unsure as to what a player is going to do when you really already know.
I'd also like to point out that the essence of shoutcasting has and always will be, the live environment. If you cannot cast a game well, blind, then you will never get anywhere and you should practice until you can. Unless you are a doing an educational VoD, there is no reason to watch the replay beforehand. Heck I'd go as far as it say it's 'cheating'. Oh, look how prophetic you are, you spotted all of the strats before they happened, magical! Allow me to bow down to you good sir.
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On June 20 2010 05:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote:
To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play.
t applies on a frequent enough basis that rehearsal should be a regular practice for a caster. Ok now this I definitely disagree with. Casting is not scripted, it is not a play, there are no lines to learn. Watching a replay means that everything you say that is not definitive fact, you are effectively faking. You know who has won and lost, you knew what they did to get there and your audience is not retarded, they'll spot it if you're pretending to be surprised, feigning enthusiasm or acting like you're mystified or unsure as to what a player is going to do when you really already know. I'd also like to point out that the essence of shoutcasting has and always will be, the live environment. If you cannot cast a game well, blind, then you will never get anywhere and you should practice until you can. Unless you are a doing an educational VoD, there is no reason to watch the replay beforehand. Heck I'd go as far as it say it's 'cheating'. Oh, look how prophetic you are, you spotted all of the strats before they happened, magical! Allow me to bow down to you good sir.
Okay, I think you misinterpreted my post.
Actually, I reread it and I miscommunicated what I was trying to say. So first off, sorry for not being clear. As a matter of fact, I ended up focusing entirely on only half of what I wanted to say, so sorry for implying basically a completely different Idea than what I was trying to imply.
I see what you mean, and I can definitely see your point of view, and, partially, I agree.
What I actually was trying to say is that casting should be split into two parts: rehearsed videos and live videos. Obviously I ended up focusing only on live videos in my last post, and that definitely implied that I thought that's what every video should sound like.
What I was trying (failing) to say is that there need to be more rehearsed videos. They don't necessarily have to be educational videos; they can still be fun and entertaining, but in a slightly different way. These videos would articulate a different type of entertainment. Enthusiasm doesn't necessarily have to be surprise. It can simply have a sort of "this is a really cool game" tone. It has the added benefit of containing fewer mistakes by the caster (since it's rehearsed), of having fewer things in the game missed, and also it's basically impossible for the game to suck, since if you are rehearsing your cast and the game is boring as hell, then you simply pick another replay.
Certainly there should be a differentiation, especially in the form of a slight "disclaimer" that briefly describes whether the following video is an emulation of a live cast, or more of a "hey this game is cool and I thought I'd share it" sort of thing.
I was not suggesting (though it sounds like I was -- again, that's my mistake -- sorry) that this sort of rehearsed method completely replace the emulated live cast.
However, I do respectfully disagree that there is "no reason" to watch a replay beforehand (even purely in the context of entertainment-oriented videos), as I feel it adds entertainment of a different sort that still showcases the caster's individual style and voice.
I apologize if any of the above sounds as though I'm trying to offend; it's getting rather late and my wording probably isn't what it should be. I assure you I was attempting to be as respectful as possible and intend absolutely no ill will.
--EDIT--
The quote (the one you used):
On June 20 2010 04:56 Seltsam wrote:
To be frank, I hate hearing a caster say that he hasn't watched the replay before. To me, that makes him/her lose some credibility. It's kind of like hearing an actor in a theater get on stage and say, "okay so I haven't actually read the script yet, so I'm gonna just kind of wing it here." Not a lot of people are going to want to see the play.
.
This quote was worded incredibly poorly. I am not actually sure why I said most of that, since it just further implies something that I'm not trying to imply. Additionally, it sounds like I'm saying all casters who don't rehearse sound like idiots, when I'm definitely not trying to say anything like that.
I just thought since I'm redacting, like, 90% of my post, I'd give this paragraph some special attention since not only is it the quote you used, but it is easily the most poorly-worded paragraph of the bunch.
Also the analogy is pretty much not at all accurate. A much better analogy would be a play that is scripted versus a performance by an improvisation troupe. Both have their merits, and neither is any sort of 'how to act' demonstration, and both showcase the performers' skills, but in different ways.
Man, the more I read my first post, the dumber I feel. I'm really sorry for being such an idiot, and hopefully this post at least KIND OF makes up for it.
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There is definitely some awesome feedback here  . Some of it I completely disagree with but this is one of the first threads to actually have really solid feedback with minimal flaming.
I know I'm personally always looking to improve my commentating. I watch all my own videos several times to try and pick out things I think others would find annoying.
If you have seen ALL my videos (you poor thing) you might notice I sometimes will get a phrase that I completely use to death before I realize it. Right now I say things like 'out of control' and 'to the face' a little too much.
Something else I think I can improve on is the production tab! I cast SC1 games for 8-10 months and am just used to having to spot things manually. For this reason I havent quite completely gotten used to the production tab but I honestly shouldnt miss a single hidden tech because it is now implemented.
I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
While I know I have a lot of room for improvement I think I am consistently trying to get better. No matter what you do not everyone is going to like it. If I gave 1000 people $100 each for free I can almost guarantee you someone would complain that I didnt give them $200. That aside, there is always room for improvement and I absolutely love what I do, so ACTUAL feedback and criticism is greatly appreciated
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On June 20 2010 04:40 crimsonsentinel wrote:
Why are people bashing when commentators say certain words of phrases a lot? That's part of their identity as commentators. It's like like when Dick Vitale says "baby", each commentator has his own way of imprinting his personality into the game. If you don't like it, watch somebody else, but don't make the commentators change who they are.
It is, as pretty much everything, complicated and subjective. Sometimes repeating something is funny. Sometimes only the person who is repeating it thinks that it's funny. Sometimes it's just an unconscious repetition of a certain word or expression. We all do it; however, those who speak in front of a larger audience have the chance to annoy much more people by doing it. Oratory is an art and mastering it is hard - but it is definitely worth it.
On June 20 2010 05:53 Seltsam wrote:
Certainly there should be a differentiation, especially in the form of a slight "disclaimer" that briefly describes whether the following video is an emulation of a live cast, or more of a "hey this game is cool and I thought I'd share it" sort of thing.
If the caster does not mention anything specific, I assume that this is the first time they see the game. In case it is not, some background information could be great, especially at the very beginning of the game when there isn't that much to say. Even without spoilers knowing what is going to happen can be a great way to raise the expectations and highlight something particularly interesting in the game. I'm pretty sure that in the future a lot of casters will go through a lot of replays on x6 to see whether they are worth uploading.
Edit: spelling, posting on an internet forum after spending the whole night out is never a good thing.
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On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote:There is definitely some awesome feedback here . Some of it I completely disagree with but this is one of the first threads to actually have really solid feedback with minimal flaming. I know I'm personally always looking to improve my commentating. I watch all my own videos several times to try and pick out things I think others would find annoying. If you have seen ALL my videos (you poor thing) you might notice I sometimes will get a phrase that I completely use to death before I realize it. Right now I say things like 'out of control' and 'to the face' a little too much. Something else I think I can improve on is the production tab! I cast SC1 games for 8-10 months and am just used to having to spot things manually. For this reason I havent quite completely gotten used to the production tab but I honestly shouldnt miss a single hidden tech because it is now implemented. I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that . While I know I have a lot of room for improvement I think I am consistently trying to get better. No matter what you do not everyone is going to like it. If I gave 1000 people $100 each for free I can almost guarantee you someone would complain that I didnt give them $200. That aside, there is always room for improvement and I absolutely love what I do, so ACTUAL feedback and criticism is greatly appreciated
^This. You have to wear their shoes first.
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Day[9] isn't just a commentator, though. He's also the THOUGHTHAMMER! By which I mean he's focusing on teaching mediocre players how to get better at StarCraft because he wants the game to get really big and have a diverse scene where players of any skill level can get involved. If he's a bit repetitive about the finer points of strategy and tactics, or how expanding away from your opponent is advantageous for Zerg players, that's just his teaching style.
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On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
I think you would do well to try a commentary with a proper colour commentator, one who is known to be a very good player anyhow. At this point you have an audience that will watch whatever you do so this is the perfect place to try some experimenting, its not going to lose you viewers. While you may know the audience is not looking for 'complete analysis' how do you know the reception of introducing a colour commentator untill you have tried it?
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It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
Haters gonna hate Gretorp, don't worry.
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On June 21 2010 20:42 Owompa wrote:
It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
Haters gonna hate Gretorp, don't worry.
This is exactly the attitude that hinders casters, not helps them. You have no idea how many times I've heard the 'haters gonna hate' style of white-knighting, in which fanbois and sycophants assure the caster that everything is fine. Mollycoddling, a word I so rarely get to use, but here it is, that's what an awful lot of people do to online media producers in all their forms. They need to quit it, at once, because most online media is bad. It's bad because it acquires a fanbase (everything has a fanbase, no matter how terrible or ridiculous) who lay on the praise and white-knight the producer if anyone should dare tell the truth or criticise. As a result, the caster/producer in question gets complacent, convinced of a falsehood that everything is fine and they can't possibly get any better. Their work stagnates, they become unable to objectively look at their work and how to improve it, they view all criticism as personal attacks and never learn from any of it.
Every prominent caster in this community is an adult, they can handle criticism, harsh or otherwise. They do not need to be defended, they certainly do not need 'haters gonna hate' sycophancy and let's be completely honest here, if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be casting at all.
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I know for one that mixing stuff up during presentations and the like is a perfectly normal thing to happen. It just annoys me when for example a phoenix goes down and the caster says a viking did.
Other stuff I have noticed is mixing town hall buildings up ( Nexi, Command centers, Hatcheries ). This is mostly during HD's casts. Again, no biggie, just really annoying at times =).
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On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
This is probably true. When a lot of my friends started playing they followed your videos religiously and most still do even though I have to personally mute you if I watch your videos and could never enjoy them (no offense). All of my casual playing friends think you're the best thing ever. The casual audience is the largest audience so you're definitely performing to an group that doesn't get much love elsewhere.
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On June 21 2010 21:01 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2010 20:42 Owompa wrote:
It really does bother me when people so harshly critique these commentators. If you keep it friendly and well-mannered then I'm all for it, but these people give a lot to the community.
Haters gonna hate Gretorp, don't worry. This is exactly the attitude that hinders casters, not helps them. You have no idea how many times I've heard the 'haters gonna hate' style of white-knighting, in which fanbois and sycophants assure the caster that everything is fine. Mollycoddling, a word I so rarely get to use, but here it is, that's what an awful lot of people do to online media producers in all their forms. They need to quit it, at once, because most online media is bad. It's bad because it acquires a fanbase (everything has a fanbase, no matter how terrible or ridiculous) who lay on the praise and white-knight the producer if anyone should dare tell the truth or criticise. As a result, the caster/producer in question gets complacent, convinced of a falsehood that everything is fine and they can't possibly get any better. Their work stagnates, they become unable to objectively look at their work and how to improve it, they view all criticism as personal attacks and never learn from any of it. Every prominent caster in this community is an adult, they can handle criticism, harsh or otherwise. They do not need to be defended, they certainly do not need 'haters gonna hate' sycophancy and let's be completely honest here, if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be casting at all.
I see your point, but some of these people are being a bit too harsh and mean to people that are honestly just trying to help build the community. Maybe I am reading into the criticism too much.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that .
I think what people irks people isn't the lack of analysis. It's when there is analysis and it's wrong. Like, simplified information is fine, but incorrect information isn't. That's the crux of what TL rage has been against in the past, with Klaz and Combat-ex.
Even simple things like "We see a fast ______" Most of the time when I hear this, it's not fast timing. It may be the first thing they built after a Barracks or Gateway, but that doesn't make it fast. FE or something like fast voidray/stargate would be an exception, but usually it's something like "fast CyC" or "fast techlab."
I don't think you're the main culprit, however...
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@Totalbiscuit
I completely agree. If anything, us casters get way too much positive feedback, and useless negative feedback. While it's nice to be told how awesome you are, its very difficult to improve when the only negative comments you get are things along the lines of you 'you suck!'.
I'm really glad for this thread. Especially because it has been so civil, and the feedback often quite nuanced.
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so i'm back ^^!
I just want to make it clear that I do in fact appreciate criticism and I'm open to it without a doubt. If you ever hear me on my stream, I have no problem admitting my faults and trying to adjust them. I dont have some complex.
What I do have a problem with is how people express their criticism. Saying "you're trying to commentate like you're smart when you don't know anything," and "perhaps you should look into (MU) more, because I think there's a lot you're missing" give two different responses. If you look what I said before, it wasn't the contents which bugged me but the way it was worded and the way it sounded.
It might've been a miscommunication however, and maybe i read into it too much. For that, I deeply apologize. I have a notebook of things i compile of things to work on. I have written a lot of stuff down, and I won't be saying macroeconomic anymore :-P! I didn't even realize I said that to be honest!
Anyway, Thank you for this thread. Again I apologize for some of my misinterpretations, but I really thought you were trolling, and it enrages me to see troll as I insta ban everyone that does it in my stream. Perhaps you will see a whole new gretorp caster in the future. It might be in English AND coherent ^^!
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On June 18 2010 12:01 JoshSuth wrote:
All valid points, but really I think in the long run, people won't remember that you missed that zergling run-by while discussing the benefit of chrono boosting as much as possible. They'll remember your voice, your excitement level, and the amount and quality of the videos you produce. If I was the hypothetical best commentator ever, but I only uploaded 1 replay every 2 weeks and it was riddled with hardware lag, nobody would watch no matter how insightful or how perfect the tone might be. Thoughts on that? When you think of 5 different commentators, if you even can think of 5, what are the first three things you use to describe them? Is it how often they have the income tab open compared to the army tab, or is it much more generic?
Completely agreed with regards to your "thoughts on that." Completely agreed. Unless you had some exclusive rights (like, BoXeR is your best friend IRL and you are the only one with those new reps of him exposing Flash's weakness)
+ Show Spoiler +
The first three things I use to describe them...rather than give a simple answer, I'll let you decide where these things fall. 
I wonder if people can figure out who I'm talking about, because I'm not mentioning names. I think these things sort of stick with more people than myself (spoilers due to length.)
- + Show Spoiler +
-Too loud, but largely energetic in a very positive way.
-Amusing, not 24/7 ROFL status but definitely down-to-earth gamer that makes me LOL sometimes.
-Mid-level player.
- + Show Spoiler +
-Really nice voice, but lacks energy sometimes, perhaps due to, and leading to :
-Experience, he has a lot of it. Oftentimes skips over the overly basic things, which I like. i.e., Higher-level analysis.
-Very good map focus. The video centers on what I want to see a heavy majority of the time.
- + Show Spoiler +
-Nondistinguished/common/not unique/bland
-Commonly makes very obvious errors in saying something about the game, seems low-level, commonly fails to look at a (e.g.) stalker to see if it has blink, but instead searching the production tab, and trying to find a twilight council that hasn't been built.
-i think the success Really is largely due to good timing (think market Product entry on this one) rather than awesome skillz.
- + Show Spoiler +
-High-level analysis, makes me say "hmm, maybe that is something I didn't think of" way more than anybody else, and in that vein, analysis-based.
-Funny, yet strikingly engaging. Good music, good vibes, has not let his massive success go to his head at all, very down to Earth.
-Nerdy, yet uniquely so in a very stylish way. Modest. Knows that SC1 skill does not equate instantly to SC2 skill. Knows he, among all of us, has much to learn.
- + Show Spoiler +
-Sexy ass voice.
-Shitty ass music during casts.
-Kind of acts above the viewers in chat interactions.
So, I think it's more general stuff than specific, but since I chatted with you (Josh) on various IRC/ustream etc and you're a boss, I decided to write way too much and let you draw a conclusion. 
Hell, I don't even remember what we were talking about anymore.
Edit: Goddamnit, I was on page 1 and quoted???? FML lol.
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On June 20 2010 20:58 Red_Storm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 05:54 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I think my game sense could use a tiny bit of tweaking, but to be honest, my audience isnt looking for complete analysis. I of course don't expect everyone at TL to agree with this approach because TL is all about competitive gaming. Thats just one aspect of my commentary I have to have 'thick skin' about. I aim to entertain as many people as possible and to help spread StarCraft as the biggest eSport of all time. Hopefully I'm at least kinda doing that . I think you would do well to try a commentary with a proper colour commentator, one who is known to be a very good player anyhow. At this point you have an audience that will watch whatever you do so this is the perfect place to try some experimenting, its not going to lose you viewers. While you may know the audience is not looking for 'complete analysis' how do you know the reception of introducing a colour commentator untill you have tried it?
100% agreement here. The one problem I have with HD casting with husky is that you don't gain anything from it. Husky has a solid call on his own and can make games exciting. I'd say it's an opportunity to pull in super high level players who have a ton of in game insight but less casting skills to comment on the play, while keeping things entertaining.
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EPT
