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On July 06 2010 13:24 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:15 kajeus wrote:
Besides, if you think about it, the roach goes a long way to making the lurker sort of boring in SC2. The roach has move-burrow, which is really what forces detection in SC2 games. The lurker has such a similar core gimmick mechanic that I wonder whether it wouldn't wind up being underused. i just want to make sure though, you really didn't know about hold-position lurkers?!
Huh? I've done absolutely nothing but demonstrate that I know EXACTLY what you're trying to say.
Hold-position lurkers are only vaguely comparable to using a baneling as a mine.
By the way, this conversation reminds me so much of this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=38427
See how angry people were? People hate new things! So many incredible parallels!
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On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:I can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players...
so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same?
both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind!
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On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind!
People on the Internet are so angry all the time!
It's not like a mine because it has an attack that moves in a straight line. It is not the same as popping and exploding, which is instantaneous and destroys the attacking unit. The lurker attack fires in a straight line. A mine is an AOE explosion. These distinctions are crucial in any competitive game.
But I was even willing to concede that it's similar! I was willing to drop the point!
And come on now, man... Carpet-bombing and a DT drop are different, right? Then why is it so hard to admit that carpet-bombing and a lurker drop are different? One has a bomber air unit that has to be avoided; the other has a dropping air unit that puts down another unit that has to run somewhere and burrow and then attack in a straight line...
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On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind!
It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate.
Here are the differences:
Line damage ≠ Splash damage.
Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units.
Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only..
Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units.
Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range.
Lurkers do not do damage when they die.
It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same".
Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here.
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On July 06 2010 13:43 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! People on the Internet are so angry all the time! It's not like a mine because it has an attack that moves in a straight line. It is not the same as popping and exploding, which is instantaneous and destroys the attacking unit. The lurker attack fires in a straight line. A mine is an AOE explosion. These distinctions are crucial in any competitive game. But I was even willing to concede that it's similar! I was willing to drop the point! And come on now, man... Carpet-bombing and a DT drop are different, right? Then why is it so hard to admit that carpet-bombing and a lurker drop are different? One has a bomber air unit that has to be avoided; the other has a dropping air unit that puts down another unit that has to run somewhere and burrow and then attack in a straight line...
the shape of an AoE harass drop is so irrelevant that it is essentially not worth mentioning. but ok you got me. banelings explode in circles, lurkers attack in long and skinny forward facing rectangles. banelings die when lurkers dont.
you're too caught up in the very specifics. a storm drop, reaver drop, lurker drop, baneling drop, they are all basically the same thing. they accomplish the same goals by extremely similar means.
the point is that a lurker can do it as well as everything else a baneling does but also more.
and constantly saying that I'm angry doenst help your point at all. I get it, you're this super cool calm suave guy whose just trying to tell this old angry guy that he's being too conservative with his RTS unit design. point taken. but not every change is a good change, and the change from lurker to baneling I think isnt a good one (unlike say most changes to protoss which I feel are really good).
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On July 06 2010 13:47 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate. Here are the differences: Line damage ≠ Splash damage. Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units. Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only.. Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units. Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range. Lurkers do not do damage when they die. It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same". Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here.
again I think you're too caught up in the very specifics of each unit's mechanics. yea a psi-storm and a hunter-seeker missile are "different" because they look different and have slightly different mechanics on how they work (psi storm is damage over time but instantly casted, HSM is instant damage but you see the missile coming) but they are BASICALLY the same thing in the form of a AoE spell that only deals damage.
also just to point out about the lurkers vs mineral lines: yea they have more HP and can take more shots before they die but once the player sees the lurkers they can run their workers away (just like vs any other drop). line damage IS splash damage btw.
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On July 06 2010 13:51 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:43 kajeus wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! People on the Internet are so angry all the time! It's not like a mine because it has an attack that moves in a straight line. It is not the same as popping and exploding, which is instantaneous and destroys the attacking unit. The lurker attack fires in a straight line. A mine is an AOE explosion. These distinctions are crucial in any competitive game. But I was even willing to concede that it's similar! I was willing to drop the point! And come on now, man... Carpet-bombing and a DT drop are different, right? Then why is it so hard to admit that carpet-bombing and a lurker drop are different? One has a bomber air unit that has to be avoided; the other has a dropping air unit that puts down another unit that has to run somewhere and burrow and then attack in a straight line... the shape of an AoE harass drop is essentially not worth mentioning. but ok you got me. banelings explode in circles, lurkers attack in long and skinny forward facing rectangles. banelings die why lurkers dont. you're too caught up in the very specifics. a storm drop, reaver drop, lurker drop, baneling drop, they are all basically the same thing. they accomplish the same goals. the point is that a lurker can do it as well as everything else a baneling does but also more. and constantly saying that I'm angry doenst help your point at all. I get it, you're this super cool calm suave guy whose just trying to tell this old angry guy that he's being too conservative with his RTS unit design. point taken. but not every change is a good change, and the change from lurker to baneling I think isnt a good one (unlike say most changes to protoss which I feel are really good).
Aww, I'm sorry, man. I'm not trying to say you're old. :D
I am not sure that the lurker can do everything as well as a baneling. I think they do many things very differently. But most importantly, it's not supposed to replace the lurker. There are many new units in SC2, and many of them can be used for many things. Just because the lurker MIGHT be able to fill more generalized "roles" than the baneling (and that's a big, premature "might") doesn't mean that the game as a whole suffers, in my opinion... It just means that it's different.
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On July 06 2010 13:55 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:47 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate. Here are the differences: Line damage ≠ Splash damage. Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units. Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only.. Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units. Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range. Lurkers do not do damage when they die. It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same". Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here. again I think you're too caught up in the very specifics of each unit's mechanics. yea a psi-storm and a hunter-seeker missile are "different" because they look different and have slightly different mechanics on how they work (psi storm is damage over time but instantly casted, HSM is instant damage but you see the missile coming) but they are BASICALLY the same thing in the form of a AoE spell that only deals damage. also just to point out about the lurkers vs mineral lines: yea they have more HP and can take more shots before they die but once the player sees the lurkers they can run their workers away (just like vs any other drop). line damage IS splash damage btw.
"again"? That was the first time I posted in this thread. But on to the content..
I'm caught up in the fact that you said exactly the same.
I am not fooled by sprites, don't worry about that 
Not sure of the relevance, but I will grant you that Psi storm and HSMissile are both spells that do AoE.
However...
HS Missiles are not instant damage. If you run the targeted unit away from the group, it will drag. Like a spider mine.
Psi storm is not instant damage. They are not the same in this respect, just like banelings and lurkers are not, lol.
If you fire a HSM, you are guaranteed to either kill or do the full damage of the HSM to at least one unit, no?
If you fire a Psi Storm, you are guaranteed nothing.
Damage over time ≠ Area of effect damage.
Psi storm is both, HSM is one.
Also, line damage is line damage. Splash damage is splash damage. That's why there are two different terms...similar concepts, different presentations.
In the diagram below..let's pretend the O's represent marines. The X is a lurker that does line damage and is at the maximum range from the marines. The marines are in a vertical formation as shown, and are in close proximity to each other, but perfectly vertical.
+ Show Spoiler [diagram] +
Obviously, at maximum range, the lurker cannot hit any marine but the center one at its parallel.
Let's pretend the X is now a Siege tank in siege mode (splash damage). The tank will damage more than the center marine that it fires at.
Line damage ≠ splash damage.
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i just think lurkers are so much more micro intensive then banelings.
all pro players use lurkers well, decent players it's actually quite a task. but then again with the new grouping system it's way easier to use lurkers so i guess i'm pretty happy with banelings.
i'd still love to see lurkers,even though i don't think it'll be used as much as bw. protoss have easier detection and terrans all go mech
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On July 06 2010 13:59 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:51 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:43 kajeus wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! People on the Internet are so angry all the time! It's not like a mine because it has an attack that moves in a straight line. It is not the same as popping and exploding, which is instantaneous and destroys the attacking unit. The lurker attack fires in a straight line. A mine is an AOE explosion. These distinctions are crucial in any competitive game. But I was even willing to concede that it's similar! I was willing to drop the point! And come on now, man... Carpet-bombing and a DT drop are different, right? Then why is it so hard to admit that carpet-bombing and a lurker drop are different? One has a bomber air unit that has to be avoided; the other has a dropping air unit that puts down another unit that has to run somewhere and burrow and then attack in a straight line... the shape of an AoE harass drop is essentially not worth mentioning. but ok you got me. banelings explode in circles, lurkers attack in long and skinny forward facing rectangles. banelings die why lurkers dont. you're too caught up in the very specifics. a storm drop, reaver drop, lurker drop, baneling drop, they are all basically the same thing. they accomplish the same goals. the point is that a lurker can do it as well as everything else a baneling does but also more. and constantly saying that I'm angry doenst help your point at all. I get it, you're this super cool calm suave guy whose just trying to tell this old angry guy that he's being too conservative with his RTS unit design. point taken. but not every change is a good change, and the change from lurker to baneling I think isnt a good one (unlike say most changes to protoss which I feel are really good). Aww, I'm sorry, man. I'm not trying to say you're old. :D I am not sure that the lurker can do everything as well as a baneling. I think they do many things very differently. But most importantly, it's not supposed to replace the lurker. There are many new units in SC2, and many of them can be used for many things. Just because the lurker MIGHT be able to fill more generalized "roles" than the baneling (and that's a big, premature "might") doesn't mean that the game as a whole suffers, in my opinion... It just means that it's different.
it's so clear that the baneling replaces the lurker :O
lower tier AoE damage for the zerg (just like how the colossi replaces the reaver and the infestor replaces the defiler). in fact in the video that this thread is ABOUT Sigaty even says that the main reason that the lurker was removed was because it overlapped too much with the baneling ("among other units" but yea the baneling) lol
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On July 06 2010 14:05 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:59 kajeus wrote:On July 06 2010 13:51 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:43 kajeus wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! People on the Internet are so angry all the time! It's not like a mine because it has an attack that moves in a straight line. It is not the same as popping and exploding, which is instantaneous and destroys the attacking unit. The lurker attack fires in a straight line. A mine is an AOE explosion. These distinctions are crucial in any competitive game. But I was even willing to concede that it's similar! I was willing to drop the point! And come on now, man... Carpet-bombing and a DT drop are different, right? Then why is it so hard to admit that carpet-bombing and a lurker drop are different? One has a bomber air unit that has to be avoided; the other has a dropping air unit that puts down another unit that has to run somewhere and burrow and then attack in a straight line... the shape of an AoE harass drop is essentially not worth mentioning. but ok you got me. banelings explode in circles, lurkers attack in long and skinny forward facing rectangles. banelings die why lurkers dont. you're too caught up in the very specifics. a storm drop, reaver drop, lurker drop, baneling drop, they are all basically the same thing. they accomplish the same goals. the point is that a lurker can do it as well as everything else a baneling does but also more. and constantly saying that I'm angry doenst help your point at all. I get it, you're this super cool calm suave guy whose just trying to tell this old angry guy that he's being too conservative with his RTS unit design. point taken. but not every change is a good change, and the change from lurker to baneling I think isnt a good one (unlike say most changes to protoss which I feel are really good). Aww, I'm sorry, man. I'm not trying to say you're old. :D I am not sure that the lurker can do everything as well as a baneling. I think they do many things very differently. But most importantly, it's not supposed to replace the lurker. There are many new units in SC2, and many of them can be used for many things. Just because the lurker MIGHT be able to fill more generalized "roles" than the baneling (and that's a big, premature "might") doesn't mean that the game as a whole suffers, in my opinion... It just means that it's different. it's so clear that the baneling replaces the lurker :O lower tier AoE damage for the zerg (just like how the colossi replaces the reaver and the infestor replaces the defiler). in fact in the video that this thread is ABOUT Sigaty even says that the main reason that the lurker was removed was because it overlapped too much with the baneling ("among other units" but yea the baneling) lol
These units possibly DISPLACE old units, due to overlapping roles. My point was that it's not like they edited BW and replaced the lurker with the baneling. You are looking for a one-to-one role comparison where there need not be one. Instead, I think we should be looking at what zerg as a RACE is capable of doing in each game as a whole...
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On July 06 2010 14:00 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:55 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:47 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate. Here are the differences: Line damage ≠ Splash damage. Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units. Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only.. Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units. Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range. Lurkers do not do damage when they die. It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same". Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here. again I think you're too caught up in the very specifics of each unit's mechanics. yea a psi-storm and a hunter-seeker missile are "different" because they look different and have slightly different mechanics on how they work (psi storm is damage over time but instantly casted, HSM is instant damage but you see the missile coming) but they are BASICALLY the same thing in the form of a AoE spell that only deals damage. also just to point out about the lurkers vs mineral lines: yea they have more HP and can take more shots before they die but once the player sees the lurkers they can run their workers away (just like vs any other drop). line damage IS splash damage btw. "again"? That was the first time I posted in this thread. But on to the content.. I'm caught up in the fact that you said exactly the same. I am not fooled by sprites, don't worry about that Not sure of the relevance, but I will grant you that Psi storm and HSMissile are both spells that do AoE. However... HS Missiles are not instant damage. If you run the targeted unit away from the group, it will drag. Like a spider mine. Psi storm is not instant damage. They are not the same in this respect, just like banelings and lurkers are not, lol. If you fire a HSM, you are guaranteed to either kill or do the full damage of the HSM to at least one unit, no? If you fire a Psi Storm, you are guaranteed nothing. Damage over time ≠ Area of effect damage. Psi storm is both, HSM is one. Also, line damage is line damage. Splash damage is splash damage. That's why there are two different terms...similar concepts, different presentations. Let's pretend the O's represent marines. The X is a lurker that does line damage and is at the maximum range from the marines. + Show Spoiler [diagram] +Obviously, at maximum range, the lurker cannot hit any marine but the center one at its parallel. Let's pretend the X is now a Siege tank in siege mode (splash damage). The tank will damage more than the center marine that it fires at. Line damage ≠ splash damage.
I said again because I spent all my posts talking about it.
you need to look at the higher concept of this whole thing. psi storm does a lot of damage to an area. HSM does a lot of damage to an area. with both spells the opposing player has the ability to minimize the effect that it has on them (either by dodging the storm or microing the targeted unit away from others). yes the specific mechanics of how they work are different, but they fill the exact same role by extremely similar means.
also you're really going to give me some bullshit about line damage and splash damage being "different terms" ? call it whatever the fuck you want, but they're the same thing in a different shape.
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On July 06 2010 14:12 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 14:00 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:55 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:47 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate. Here are the differences: Line damage ≠ Splash damage. Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units. Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only.. Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units. Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range. Lurkers do not do damage when they die. It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same". Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here. again I think you're too caught up in the very specifics of each unit's mechanics. yea a psi-storm and a hunter-seeker missile are "different" because they look different and have slightly different mechanics on how they work (psi storm is damage over time but instantly casted, HSM is instant damage but you see the missile coming) but they are BASICALLY the same thing in the form of a AoE spell that only deals damage. also just to point out about the lurkers vs mineral lines: yea they have more HP and can take more shots before they die but once the player sees the lurkers they can run their workers away (just like vs any other drop). line damage IS splash damage btw. "again"? That was the first time I posted in this thread. But on to the content.. I'm caught up in the fact that you said exactly the same. I am not fooled by sprites, don't worry about that Not sure of the relevance, but I will grant you that Psi storm and HSMissile are both spells that do AoE. However... HS Missiles are not instant damage. If you run the targeted unit away from the group, it will drag. Like a spider mine. Psi storm is not instant damage. They are not the same in this respect, just like banelings and lurkers are not, lol. If you fire a HSM, you are guaranteed to either kill or do the full damage of the HSM to at least one unit, no? If you fire a Psi Storm, you are guaranteed nothing. Damage over time ≠ Area of effect damage. Psi storm is both, HSM is one. Also, line damage is line damage. Splash damage is splash damage. That's why there are two different terms...similar concepts, different presentations. Let's pretend the O's represent marines. The X is a lurker that does line damage and is at the maximum range from the marines. + Show Spoiler [diagram] +Obviously, at maximum range, the lurker cannot hit any marine but the center one at its parallel. Let's pretend the X is now a Siege tank in siege mode (splash damage). The tank will damage more than the center marine that it fires at. Line damage ≠ splash damage. I said again because I spent all my posts talking about it. you need to look at the higher concept of this whole thing. psi storm does a lot of damage to an area. HSM does a lot of damage to an area. with both spells the opposing player has the ability to minimize the effect that it has on them (either by dodging the storm or microing the targeted unit away from others). yes the specific mechanics of how they work are different, but they fill the exact same role by extremely similar means. also you're really going to give me some bullshit about line damage and splash damage being "different terms" ? call it whatever the fuck you want, but they're the same thing in a different shape.
I believe I am already looking at the higher concept...I think you need to look at the higher concept personally.
Basic concept: "They do damage over some area"
Higher concept: What I posted. The specific mechanics of how they work and their uses.
What youre saying is similar to equating males and females.
Basic concept: They're both humans
Higher concept: I don't need to explain....
(PS: I'm only giving you shit about the terminology because it serves to illustrate the fact that they are different, mechanically. And because you said "EXACTLY the same". I disagree........)
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maybe its cause they realized baneling lurker would be imba
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On July 06 2010 14:25 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 14:12 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 14:00 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:55 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:47 InfiniteIce wrote:On July 06 2010 13:31 Ideas wrote:On July 06 2010 13:25 kajeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time. I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game. I guess this was a little unfair to you because it's inherently impossible for the lurker to be used as a mine. What you have here is standard lurker use, one defensive and the other sort of random harass. This is similar to using the baneling as a mine, but the difference is that the lurker must *attack*, its attack needs to be dodged or run away from. It's like a cloaked siege tank. Not really a mine... But let's just suppose that a lurker can function similarly to a mine, because this is kind of a boring point to stress. You yourself admit that the lurker has to land, burrow, and fire in order to do damage. Compare this to a baneling drop, which is more like a carpet-bombing -- instantaneous, cheap, and explosive in more ways than one. Lurkers CANNOT be used as bombs. And we have only a hint of all the ways they will be used. You have 10 years of hardcore play behind the lurker, but what does the baneling have? A couple months of a beta and a group of hostile Brood War players... so it's not a mine because it's not 100% like a mine visually but functions EXACTLY the same? both a lurker drop and baneling drop depend on the other player not noticing the units as they come to the base. it's pretty much exactly the same (wait for lurkers to burrow and attack, wait for overlord to get either directly over the workers and then drop or wait for banelings to get there). Oh but it doesnt LOOK like a mine! nevermind! It's not the same, it doesnt function the same. I just read both of your sides in this little debate. Here are the differences: Line damage ≠ Splash damage. Lurkers do not die (at least not without an attack from the enemy) after being unheld. Lurkers are not suicide units. Banelings cannot be used to deny an expansion for any length of time, because they are one use only.. Banelings cannot be used to hold a key piece of terrain for any length of time...because they are suicide units. Lurkers MUST burrow to attack. Banelings MUST unburrow to attack. Lurkers have range. Lurkers do not do damage when they die. It doesn't function "EXACTLY the same". Additionally, lurkers do not necessarily "depend" on the other player not noticing the units approaching their base. They have nearly 4x the HP of a baneling, and multiple lurkers can survive a few pot shots and still burrow, losing maybe 1-2 out of a control group. Banelings have very little HP and the stealth mechanic is more of a factor here. again I think you're too caught up in the very specifics of each unit's mechanics. yea a psi-storm and a hunter-seeker missile are "different" because they look different and have slightly different mechanics on how they work (psi storm is damage over time but instantly casted, HSM is instant damage but you see the missile coming) but they are BASICALLY the same thing in the form of a AoE spell that only deals damage. also just to point out about the lurkers vs mineral lines: yea they have more HP and can take more shots before they die but once the player sees the lurkers they can run their workers away (just like vs any other drop). line damage IS splash damage btw. "again"? That was the first time I posted in this thread. But on to the content.. I'm caught up in the fact that you said exactly the same. I am not fooled by sprites, don't worry about that Not sure of the relevance, but I will grant you that Psi storm and HSMissile are both spells that do AoE. However... HS Missiles are not instant damage. If you run the targeted unit away from the group, it will drag. Like a spider mine. Psi storm is not instant damage. They are not the same in this respect, just like banelings and lurkers are not, lol. If you fire a HSM, you are guaranteed to either kill or do the full damage of the HSM to at least one unit, no? If you fire a Psi Storm, you are guaranteed nothing. Damage over time ≠ Area of effect damage. Psi storm is both, HSM is one. Also, line damage is line damage. Splash damage is splash damage. That's why there are two different terms...similar concepts, different presentations. Let's pretend the O's represent marines. The X is a lurker that does line damage and is at the maximum range from the marines. + Show Spoiler [diagram] +Obviously, at maximum range, the lurker cannot hit any marine but the center one at its parallel. Let's pretend the X is now a Siege tank in siege mode (splash damage). The tank will damage more than the center marine that it fires at. Line damage ≠ splash damage. I said again because I spent all my posts talking about it. you need to look at the higher concept of this whole thing. psi storm does a lot of damage to an area. HSM does a lot of damage to an area. with both spells the opposing player has the ability to minimize the effect that it has on them (either by dodging the storm or microing the targeted unit away from others). yes the specific mechanics of how they work are different, but they fill the exact same role by extremely similar means. also you're really going to give me some bullshit about line damage and splash damage being "different terms" ? call it whatever the fuck you want, but they're the same thing in a different shape. I believe I am already looking at the higher concept...I think you need to look at the higher concept personally. Basic concept: "They do damage over some area" Higher concept: What I posted. The specific mechanics of how they work and their uses. What youre saying is similar to equating males and females. Basic concept: They're both humans Higher concept: I don't need to explain.... (PS: I'm only giving you shit about the terminology because it serves to illustrate the fact that they are different, mechanically. And because you said "EXACTLY the same". I disagree........)
plz dont tell me that this has turned into an argument about the amount of "concept" and what that means lol. I believe that the higher your "concept" is the more abstract it is, and the lower the concept the more concrete and specific it is. basic concept = high concept, or at least that's how I've understood it to be.
either way that's completely besides the point of all my talking points on this thread I think. they're "different" but are they really THAT different?
really most units in SC1 and 2 are "the same" when you pull back your view far enough. I guess how you judge how similar or different they are is a personal thing, but I am arguing that in MY view lurkers fill every role a baneling does and even more.
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On July 06 2010 13:13 Ideas wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FasNT0eFzwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH2Wl168qEI can't think of a VOD ATM with a sick lurker drop, but I see them all the time (not as much lately because the maps aren't as great for them ATM, but outsider/medusa/destination and many others were great for them). I know I saw this game on outsider where the guy dropped a lurker behind the protoss' mineral only and so the protoss pulled all the probes to his nat, where the zerg had earlier dropped 2 other lurkers (on top of the cluff) and then burrowed them and got a shitload of kills. lurkers do everything a baneling does and more. they are used for map control. you are able to hold tight chokes with only a few lurkers. they are able to be used in offensive lurker contains. they are greatly complimented by dark swarm to hold expansions. they are used well with zerglings by forcing the terran's infantry to run (so as to not get killed by the lurkers) so that the lings get free hits (also you can surround the infantry ball with lings and then burrow the lurkers and the infantry cant run anywhere). they can be used as harass units. they can be used as mines. strategically, lurkers offer many more options than banelings and thus IMO are far better units for a realtime strategy game.
I loled at the second vid. I love how the Terran checks for lurkers before going in, most players would have let the lurkers loose then, but Savior saw through it and waited until the until the whole army was there before killing them all. Genius.
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I think what most of the Zerg players (including me) are really complaining about
is that Zerg is NOT fun and too predictable
we have the lowest ammount of combat units compared to other races
ands that's not considering the fact some units just don't work correctly at the moment(ultralisk)
and one unit with a unique concept but nerfed into a generic zealot (roach)
lore wise doesn't make sense because we don't have a 1 supply combat unit (zergling are .5) destroying some of our ability to mass, also nerfed zergling attack speed D:
their was a great thread on the sc2 beta forums that explained zerg's problem nicely here
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25171927930&sid=5000
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i think some people are staring themselves blind on the things a lurker could and a baneling can't.
there's a lot of stuff that a baneling can do which a lurker couldn't.
maybe anyone saw the day9 daily during the zerg special with the overlord / baneling drop.
that was really awesome.
you can also burrow single banelings on key ramps when your oponent has no detection.
and don't forget that the lurker has been around for 10 years. the baneling only a few months. new tactics will come eventualy
edit: spelling
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EPT
