EPT[D] How do you make the Ultralisk viable? - Page 2
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Amandil
United States58 Posts
The zergling composition in the army is just one that you have to adjust in game. Alot of helions, stop making zerglings except to counter harass econs. Once they start popping out more marauders lings will do better in battle. Generally always try to flank with lings, if you attack on same side as ultras your wasting alot of units as they try to get in position. I think people need to stop thinking of ultras as tanks and lings as dps. Once you get a good amount of ultras with some infestor support they do plenty good damage to hold there own. | ||
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Yeran
Germany23 Posts
But in my opinion if anything finally reduce its collision size in general and just wait how it works out. The main reason I kind of dislike ultralisks are those famous memories of 2 of them blocking each other on a ramp and while hardly moving forward getting owned by a bunch of marines. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
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Fredz
Canada36 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 14 2010 01:41 Fredz wrote: Imo, ultras should just have a very small ranged attack that let the lings attack at the same time. No collision with lights would make it retarded. ^ That would be cool. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
Yeah, Artosis and Tasteless and I think it should have a range of one or two for pathing. | ||
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DunnyDman
4 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 14 2010 02:24 DunnyDman wrote: To all the ppl saying just look at TLO, may I ask which games are those? Links would be nice thank you. one of the latest day9 shows. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On June 14 2010 02:24 DunnyDman wrote: To all the ppl saying just look at TLO, may I ask which games are those? Links would be nice thank you. It was in a Day9 daily on which TLO made a lenghty guest a appearance and that is why everyone and their dog has accepted it as the holy doctrine of starcraft 2 without regards to the fact that I dont think ultralisks have made a single appearance in a tournament game that wasnt clearly won (and even then, I cant recall seeing one). Blizzard clearly has zero idea what it's doing in regards to the ultralisk. They had that super lengthy crap about how strong ultralisks were going to be and how they needed that huge HP decrease and in the end they had to give some of it right back along with a free upgrade. | ||
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Atticus.axl
United States456 Posts
In my amateur opinion, a size reduction and an hp/armor boost would serve to make them viable more so than these ideas, but good thread regardless. | ||
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v1n1z1o
Mexico185 Posts
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
Anti-Armor attack properties plus cleave Armor that no unit can deal extra damage to. Done. Increased HP: The HP right now is pretty...low for such a powerful and menacing unit. In Broodwar so to speak, the ultra took so damn long to kill. Having more HP helps that. AA attack+cleave: It makes ultras viable to do alot of damage because of its huge claws. Taking out Anti-armor would be fine if the damage output to everything else is good. Cleave should be what makes Ultras so threatning Unique armor: If the armor is armored, anything thats an anti-armor will rip out ultras clean (such as immortals. God they do so much ****ing bonus damage). Having an armor that no unit does bonus damage (it's not light, not armored, not anything but... Dense Muscle Armor?) helps out so units that would do an absurd amount of high damage will...well no longer can do bonus so they do regular damage. Thus helps ultra's live longer. If not even more difficult to take down. Something along those lines. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
Currently it "looks" like a tank, but it's really not. The total health of 3 zealots (300 min cost) is 450, so they are a more affordable "tank" unit, not to mention if u put 3 zealots vs 1 ultra (which is 300/200 min/gas) the Ultra will only survive with 43 health. Therefore, it's not a tank unit. It's supposed to be an "Anti Armored Unit", but the majority of armored units have range over it, and typically only 1 Ultra can attack at a time due to their size. So it really cant function as an anti armored unit. Hell ONLY 3 marauders (which are armored and FAR lower tier) bring a single ultralist to about 40% health. 1 Thor vs 1 Ultra and the Ultra only survives with 35 health. Immortals beat Ultras, and have range. The only heavy units it is really effective against is Marauder and Colossus (but it can never get to the desired units to do damage. So it really does not fit an anti armored role. Furthermore, compared to the Broodlord, it has pretty much no weaknesses. Broodlord obviously has the advantage vs anything that cant hit air, and only being able to be attacked by Marines, Thors, Stalkers, Phoenix, Voids - those units are far easier to deal with. Besides, even against those units, BL do not have any problems handling either of those at all except Phoenix and Void (which are easy to handle with a couple hydras right next to the BL, considering BL's huge range. Why would anyone pick Ultra over a Broodlord right now? The only reason at all is for the additional damage to buildings. But considering how hard it is to actaully take that advatnage, and how you can rarely even get more than 1 ultra attacking the same building, that's pretty wasteful. Sure the Ultra has AOE damage, but only 1 ultra can attack a selected unit at a time due to their size. Compared to BL, the Broodlings are their AOE damage. In most scenarios, having broodlings that ALSO TANK, that ALSO block the path and trap your enemies movement, AND that do the "aoe damage" at a HUGE range that you could also have units in front of your BL also simultaneously attacking. But seriously guys, ignore what TLO said. Test all that I've mentioned in the Unit Tester. Try putting the Ultra against equal mineral value of the other units. Ultra typically "barely" has the advantage against teh units its strong against - which is compeltely unacceptable for a t3 unit. Every other T3 unit in the game has a HEAVY advantage against its desired matchups, typically regardless of scenario. Just because TLO has been able to make them work in their strategy, does not mean that they are a worthy unit in comparison to other units. The unit tester is perfect to see whats better. Use the strategy he mentioned and replace the Ultra with Broodlords and watch how much more efficient it is. Test it vs both Mech and Robo. You will see. I've tested and tested since the beta went down, and there is literally NO scenario outside of attacking buildings that an Ultra would be preferred over a BL, unless you have a sub-par unit mix. TLO used them as a meat shield, but why would you ever pick them as a meat shield over Roaches when you could get 4 Roaches for equal minerals and half the gas of a Ultra - PLUS combined the 4 roaches have more health than a single Ultra??? Only advantage is the (small) population difference - which is worth it for the extra health. The current Ultralisk would not even be very useful if we got it in T2. Which is a damn shame. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On June 14 2010 03:37 Bull-Demon wrote: I find it hilarious that all the sheep are saying ultras are viable just cause TLO said so. Would be nice if, ya know, people actually thought for themselves but I guess that would be expecting too much. Probably the same people a month ago that were flooding the forums with how much ultras suck. Yep. Like I mentioned, bust out the unit tester and see for yourself. Hell you can even make a Robo or Mech army to fight, and switch Ultras in and BL and see which perform better. You'll see that my above claims are all true. He has VERY few fights where he has an actual advantage, and far too many fights that he is equal or disadvantaged in. Heres a list of how the Ultra performs vs Terran units that it could attack and be attacked by... 1 Ultra vs 6 Marines - Ultra survives with half health. 1 Ultra vs 3 Marauders - Ultra survives with half health unmicroed. With Mara Micro, they recieve no damage due to the dodging bug. 1 Ultra vs Hellions - Ultras large advantage. 1 Ultra vs 2 Unsieged Tanks - Ultra survives with 50% health 1 Ultra vs 2 Sieged Tanks - Ultra survives with 60% health 2 Ultras vs 4 Sieged Tanks - Both Ultras barely survive (therefore the more tanks the worse ultras do) 1 Ultra vs 1 Thor - Ultra Barely Survives. Therefore, the only notable strengths Ultra has is vs Marines, Marauders, and Hellions. Tanks are not even worth listing, because barely surviving vs 4 tanks alone means that with fire from any other units, those Ultras woudl have been dead far before the Tanks. Also in a realistic scenario, Ultras do not perform very well vs MMM due to the huge amounts of focus fire, and simultaneous damage from the rest of their army. So what are Ultras real strengths? Lets compare that to the Broodlord. Broodlord has a heavy advantage vs Marauders, Hellions, Tanks, as none of them can hit a BL. Broodlord can only be hit by Marines and Thors. Broodlords easily handle Marines as they have to get very close to the BL to do their damage, which means going in to attack range of the other Zerg units. 2 Broodlords vs 2 Thors (both focus firing) = Both Broodlords survive (1 of them barely survived at 6 health). The weakest matchups for BL are still fairly even. That's the same scenario nearly every other T3 unit in the game has. T3 units are (typically) stronger than most other matchups aside from the hard counters. For example, Battlecruisers have a huge advantage over most units, where things like Corruptors only have a slight advantage if equal min amounts. Thors have a 50% advantage over most units. Even Immortals have far more strengths than the Ultra does. The Ultra was not designed to be stronger than most of it's matchups - which makes it unique for a T3 unit (or even T2). The only strengths it really has is vs t1 units, and even that's negligible due to his range and fact that they took away his DPS vs light units. I've analyzed EVERY SINGLE UNIT in the game this way. The Ultra seriously has far less performance than any other T3 unit if you factor equal mineral/gas values. As mentioned before, its barely on par with many T2 units. | ||
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