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Just fired up kulas ravine in the map tester and played around with the ultras, confirming what I've been seeing when using ultras while playing when the beta was up. Ultras do indeed attack over one row, not more than one though, of lings so no need to have them not collide with light units. What would happen if they didnt collide with light units, well hydras are light so think about that(yes of course you could make an exception that ultras collide with hydras).
Most importantly though, how about...you not make ultras when you see that your terran opponent is going mech. If you insist on using ultras then you know that you are at somewhat of an disadvantage since mech is pretty efficient against ultras. This is not a flaw of the game it is a flaw of your decision making.
What would happen if you reduced the ultras size? well the splash from tanks would now start to hit other units close by and the role of the ultra as a tanking unit would severly diminish, basically it would be even less useful.
Regarding the day[9] daily #131, we could see that ultras dont just outright do nothing against mech. In other words you can get away with stubbornly hitting your head against a wall(figureatively speaking), but its nothing you actually would recommend to someone. We could also see that when the terran player is passive you abuse nydus worms and drops to great success(Hello Ultras!). Is it hard to use this playstyle? yes, quite alot for most people(myself included). Is it a flaw that it's hard, nope. You need to practice more or just use broodlords instead(with corruptors of course) together with some ground support.
Do the ultra actually need to be viable against everything and anything(except air if we are to be somewhat realistic)? No that would be silly. No unit is really viable against anything and everything. Is the Ultra perhaps less viable, it has a smaller window of use, than most other units? Yes. Is it too narrow though? I dont think so. I actually like it cos then you have an advantage off the bat when using your ultras, the so called element of surprise.
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It doesn't help that the current map pool is basically a big corridor. Ultra's don't really have a chance to shine unless they have the surface area to make contact. I suspect that if you played BW on the current map pool, BW ultras will also suck.
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On June 13 2010 23:50 Talic_Zealot wrote:
What's funny to me is that in the beginning everyone was saying that sc2 required no mechanical skill and now everyone wants to make it easier.. :D
^^ 
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On June 14 2010 07:21 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
Do the ultra actually need to be viable against everything and anything(except air if we are to be somewhat realistic)?
Nope.
But as a T3 unit, they should be viable vs any of the major strategies resource-wise.
In a Mech battle (or robo) with equal amounts of mineral/gas spent, Ultralisks lose more resources than damage they do.
They are simply not resource efficient against the majority of the units in the game. It's the ONLY T3 unit with more weaknesses and equalities than strengths.
That's why it's more than just "Zerg need a resource advantage to win". Ultra is literally the weakest T3 unit - it has the lowest amount of fights that are "strengths" of all T3 units of all races. I've listed the few units that the Ultra does have the advantage over, if you look at my earlier posts you will see it's only Marine, Mara, Hellion, or <4 siege tanks. None of those are even T3 tech. The Ultra has trouble with all other forms of T3 tech for all races. And in a realistic scenario, the Marines and Mara are very strong vs Ultras due to their synergy with Mech.
Shouldnt there be any endgame unit mix of varied T1-T3 units that each Ultralisk does more than 300mineral/200 gas worth of damage? It seems you think there should be by the part of the message that I quoted. Because honestly - right now, there is not. The only way to win with them is have enough of a resource advantage to pump wave after wave where you do less damage than you spend on the Ultras, and they are not even the strongest unit for that style of play.
The real question is - Should each Ultra actually be able to do 300/200 worth of damage to any endgame unit mix? The answer should be yes - it should at least be strong against or counter one endgame army mix. But it DOESNT! Against mech as you see in TLO's game you can clearly see each wave of Ultras hes not doing as much damage as resource value hes losing - That shows Ultras are NOT resource efficient against mech.
Doesnt that indicate a problem?
Lets settle this an easy way - I challenge you to find any endgame unit mix that includes 1 unit from each of the 3 Tiers. For example, load up the Unit Tester map. (im just making up these numbers randomly) Spend 1k min/500 gas on t1 units, 2k min 1k gas on t2 units, and 2k min 1.5k gas on t3 units for each team. Use equivalent upgrades. Find any unit mix that Ultras perform better than Broodlords in.
Then you will see for your self how inefficient Ultralisks are. The worst part? They even take quite a beating from armored units, which they are apparently intended to counter.
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Ultra's should be like the mammoth tank of c&c zh, everything they run over, dies!
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TBH ultras are like they were in BW, you just need 3/4+ of them for them to be really tanky, you cant engage a 200/200 army with 1 or 2 ultras and speedlings. They worked wonders vs stalker heavy P forces in ZvP.
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Ultras should be easier to get IMO. Think how much easier it is to tech to Thor or Colossus than to get to Ultras.
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On June 14 2010 09:19 Subversion wrote:
Ultras should be easier to get IMO. Think how much easier it is to tech to Thor or Colossus than to get to Ultras.
Since infestors are critical to many mid-late compositions, all that is required is the time to build hive and ultra tech. Now that speed upgrade has been removed, you only need the armor upgrade. Ultras are combat-ready off 3 bases.
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Someone asked if I've even tried ultras or if I just concluded that they weren't useful from tournament replays... the answer is yes I've tried them, but that doesn't really mean much since I'm not much of a zerg player.
Since patch 15, I played like crazy since the beta was about to go down... except that I'm a protoss player who just plays a bit of random for fun. I'm a high-diamond protoss player, but when switching to random for more than a few days I actually drop to platinum... so that should give you an idea of how bad I am with Terran and Zerg. Why did I conclude that Ultras are underpowered? Nobody used them against me to any effect. I then went back to BW when the beta went down and have gotten rolled by Ultra/ling no less than 5 times in like 20 games.
As a protoss player, my end-game army composition includes collosus which kill zerglings and hydras very easily (especially with +2 weapons) and stalkers (to shoot the corruptors) and a sprinkling of sentries... I'm not actually that good with FF so I just use them for GS passed the mid game. What do I do when I see ultras (which I only saw like twice since patch 15)? Retreat (sacrificing a few stalkers), warp in a line of zealots and ROFL as the ultras can't get through to hit my collosus. I don't even need to make immortals. What do I do when I see broodlords? I go HOLY SHIT I NEED TO TECH SWITCH and usually end up losing.
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On June 14 2010 07:21 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
Just fired up kulas ravine in the map tester and played around with the ultras, confirming what I've been seeing when using ultras while playing when the beta was up. Ultras do indeed attack over one row, not more than one though, of lings so no need to have them not collide with light units. What would happen if they didnt collide with light units, well hydras are light so think about that(yes of course you could make an exception that ultras collide with hydras).
Most importantly though, how about...you not make ultras when you see that your terran opponent is going mech. If you insist on using ultras then you know that you are at somewhat of an disadvantage since mech is pretty efficient against ultras. This is not a flaw of the game it is a flaw of your decision making.
What would happen if you reduced the ultras size? well the splash from tanks would now start to hit other units close by and the role of the ultra as a tanking unit would severly diminish, basically it would be even less useful.
Regarding the day[9] daily #131, we could see that ultras dont just outright do nothing against mech. In other words you can get away with stubbornly hitting your head against a wall(figureatively speaking), but its nothing you actually would recommend to someone. We could also see that when the terran player is passive you abuse nydus worms and drops to great success(Hello Ultras!). Is it hard to use this playstyle? yes, quite alot for most people(myself included). Is it a flaw that it's hard, nope. You need to practice more or just use broodlords instead(with corruptors of course) together with some ground support.
Do the ultra actually need to be viable against everything and anything(except air if we are to be somewhat realistic)? No that would be silly. No unit is really viable against anything and everything. Is the Ultra perhaps less viable, it has a smaller window of use, than most other units? Yes. Is it too narrow though? I dont think so. I actually like it cos then you have an advantage off the bat when using your ultras, the so called element of surprise.
So according to you Ultras are bad against mech, and we all know they are useless against bio (mauraders) and they can't attack air. So basically they are useless against any terran army, and you think that is perfectly ok? Oh yeah, I forgot you can put them in a nydas worm!! That makes them perfectly balanced...
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ultras just seem really hard to make fit into this game. You make them too strong vs things and suddenly its an attack-move no skill ridiculous unit. Right now they just simply don't do much, they would counter units that are already not very useful and they have a lot of issues just simply related to the game engine. Letting them knock down forcefields is cool, but to use them to do that would make them more of a utility unit where you just want like 2 of them to do it at the start of the battle.
I dont know. There is just no synergy with the other units.
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On June 14 2010 09:33 farseer_dk wrote:
What do I do when I see broodlords? I go HOLY SHIT I NEED TO TECH SWITCH and usually end up losing.
You already have stalkers, so you research blink and pump out more of them and screw the tech switch.
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They should be able to walk over Zerglings but the fact that they cost as much as a Thor or Colossus, which are both ranged, is silly. If going against either of these, there is no point to using the ultralisk as it will most likely go down, cost for cost, the Ultralisk is garbage, not because of stats, but because it is melee. The ultralisk had a spot in Brood war, it doesn't in Starcraft 2. The removal of Dark Swarm makes them useless and the addition of Dark swarm would make them overpowered. I just forget they are there and am none the worse for it.
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Most people here should launch the game as Zerg ( IA cracking, Units Tester, anything ) ,make some Ultras and lings and just make them move , attacking a army, play them a little bit.
If u don't come back thinking Ultra need a patching buff/fix there is something wrong with you. :/
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i cant think of a situation where i would rather have an ultralisk over a broodlord. imho blizzard ended the ultralisk campaign with roaches (they fulfill the dmg soaking roll much better i think). also i just feel like late game melee is just not effective anymore (the only exception being zealots cuz they can charge). i think the ultralisk isnt the same without dark swarm. dark swarm MMM... good
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My suggestion would be to give Ultralisk 25mana and an on-use ability to leap(cost 25). I think tank siegerange is.. 13? then give it leap range 10 or whatever. Increases micro and how awesome would it not be! 
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On June 14 2010 17:06 Enoeda wrote:My suggestion would be to give Ultralisk 25mana and an on-use ability to leap(cost 25). I think tank siegerange is.. 13? then give it leap range 10 or whatever. Increases micro and how awesome would it not be!
This is not dota...
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Make them able to attack while burrowed.
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TL.net, where the word viable is more viable.
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On June 14 2010 09:53 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 09:33 farseer_dk wrote:
What do I do when I see broodlords? I go HOLY SHIT I NEED TO TECH SWITCH and usually end up losing. You already have stalkers, so you research blink and pump out more of them and screw the tech switch.
Thing is, stalkers are great against the actually brood lords but terrible against the broodlings... But I guess i should just make more stalkers. I'm not that great a player and one of my faults is bad micro... I'm really not that good at chasing down air with stalkers. Anyhow this is totally offtopic.
But speaking of broodlords, they're a natural transition out of corruptors since corruptors are good against collossi, the problem is, they require spire tech so a zerg player that elects not to make a spire and instead goes roach/hydra or mass hydra, they have to tech switch to counter collosus. If a zerg player needs to kill Collossi and stalkers, they should not have to back-tech to spire and then greater spire. They should just be able to add an Ultralisk Cavern and have a decent shot.
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EPT
