EPT[D] How do you make the Ultralisk viable? - Page 4
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On June 14 2010 05:03 Hann1bal wrote: Ultras are the most awkward unit to maneuver in the game. Blizzard realized the mistake they made with the Thor and they adjusted his size and now it works quite well. They just need to do the same with the Ultra. The problem right now is you send in your ultras, they punch through the initial units with some losses and you STILL can't maneuver them through the gap they've just created. They're about as awkward as a teenage boy at a middle school dance. Shrink the model, improve the pathing, do something. I'd probably use them with a nerf if they improved this facet. I agree something needs to be changed about the maneuverability. Either have ultras be like colossi or make them smaller. Currently their role is quite undefined because right now we have a unit that has massive amounts of HP suggesting tank, but EVERYTHING does bonus damage to it making it weak and frail. It also does massive damage to buildings suggesting a good alternative to crackling drops in BW to take out key buildings to hamper tech or production; however, at 300/200 cost dropping like 3 of them to take out a cc or a couple of factories just isn't an economically sound decision. Ultras also do pretty good damage to armored units, but most armored units in the game also do extra damage against other armored units (IE tanks or maruaders), but in addition they have extra range which prevents the bulky (and kind of slow) ultralisk from even getting up to them in the first place (especially difficult in chokes). So now what you have is a unit which has all around good skills, but really no place in being used effectively. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On June 14 2010 05:21 iEchoic wrote: Sigh. Nobody has tried ultralisks long enough since the last patch to determine if they're viable (though some like TLO definitely feel that they are). I'm really beginning to dislike this attitude that the route to fixing 'problems' is through patches and not player skill and adaptation. The first response to adversity is now 'how can this be patched'? Play some custom maps while BNet is down and test them for yourself. See how they compare to the other Zerg units. You may learn why so many people are upset with them. After testing them a bit, watch the day9 with TLO on it again. Look at the army compositions and how far ahead on population and cash TLO has to be before he breaks thru. Look at the few Terrans defending. Watch how he attacks a handful of 4-5 tanks and 2-3 thors with 10 Ultras and still gets taken out. Then create a map with 10 tanks 10 thors (just to make the Terran have even more of an advantage), and fight them with 10 Broodlords. Watch what happens. Then try that with any other unit mix you would like, and find any unit mix that Ultras work better than BL on. I did. The only time Ultra WITH upgrades outperforms BL WITHOUT upgrades, is pure marines unmicroed, pure mara unmicroed (and due to a big, you can kite Ultras without taking any damage), hellions, or under 4-5 tanks - the more tanks than that the more disadvantage Ultras have. With any full mech or full robo army composition, BL perform far, far better. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 14 2010 05:33 Spyridon wrote: Play some custom maps while BNet is down and test them for yourself. See how they compare to the other Zerg units. You may learn why so many people are upset with them. After testing them a bit, watch the day9 with TLO on it again. Look at the army compositions and how far ahead on population and cash TLO has to be before he breaks thru. Look at the few Terrans defending. Watch how he attacks a handful of 4-5 tanks and 2-3 thors with 10 Ultras and still gets taken out. Then create a map with 10 tanks 10 thors (just to make the Terran have even more of an advantage), and fight them with 10 Broodlords. lol. This line of thinking doesn't work. The game doesn't play like this. Whenever someone brings up a game of Ultralisks being used correctly, their is always that guy who say "OH BUT ZERG HAS AN ECO ADVANTAGE". A economy advantage doesn't mean shit unless the zerg has a way of pressing it. Prior to the ultralisk buffs, you'd frequently have games in which a terran would beat zerg three bases to five. The zerg only had one way of pressing a eco advantage lategame, and that was broodlords. Now they have two. You people assume that Ultralisks are only balanced if someone can produce a game where Zerg is at a eco disadvantage, and then makes ultralisks and wins. That would mean ultralisks are overpowered. The function of zerg lategame is not to build them and suddenly come out of a eco disadvantage and win, as protoss tier 3 does, but rather to allow you to press a macro advantage and turn it into map control and eventually a win. The Ultralisk fulfills that role nicely. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On June 14 2010 05:38 Half wrote: lol. This line of thinking doesn't work. The game doesn't play like this. Whenever someone brings up a game of Ultralisks being used correctly, their is always that guy who say "OH BUT ZERG HAS AN ECO ADVANTAGE". A economy advantage doesn't mean shit unless the zerg has a way of pressing it. Prior to the ultralisk buffs, you'd frequently have games in which a terran would beat zerg three bases to five. The zerg only had one way of pressing a eco advantage lategame, and that was broodlords. Now they have two. You people assume that Ultralisks are only balanced if someone can produce a game where Zerg is at a eco disadvantage, and then makes ultralisks and wins. That would mean ultralisks are overpowered. The function of zerg lategame is not to build them and suddenly come out of a eco disadvantage and win, as protoss tier 3 does, but rather to allow you to press a macro advantage and turn it into map control and eventually a win. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is, the Ultralisk simply does not compare. NEARLY ANY SITUATION you go in with 3000/2000 mineral value of Ultralisks, you would be in better shape if you spent that cash on Broodlords. They CANT "press" as hard as Broodlings, because each wave of broodlings is free, and 10 Ultras do LESS damage as a whole than 10 Broodlords. They are vulnerable to MANY more units and strategies. The major "Defense" people have of Ultras is how TLO uses them, but can anyone seriously watch that video and say that if he used Broodlords instead, he would not have won the game way faster? Doesnt it say something if the best display of Ultras we have available would have been better suited if he used BL? | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
But they are not really reliable. Pathing, modelsize and manouverability makes them behave diffrently from situation to situation, that would have to be changed. Make it possible to get full control over them (as with all other units) and I think the Ultra is fine as is. Atleast as fine as any unit atm. The often suggested "short range"-attack is a bonus but not really necessary, as a little micro with the lings will go along way to avoid those problems (flanking with lings or sending them in after the Ultras), and more micro for Zerg is a good thing in my book. Having other units pass through them... might be one way to solve the problems I listed above, but not sure what I feel about that. Seems really artificial to me. I am a zerg-player, and I get a bit worried with race-bias in this thread, because that might undermine the credibility for other zerg-issues that needs to be adressed more urgently imo; as the flat and flavourless spells (corruption, contaminate and infested terran). Edit; Btw I find it increasingly annoying that ppl refer to TLO, Day[9], [insert blanc] as "end-all-discussion" arguments; not only here but in many threads, about many topics. Please, just play, learn and think for yourselves instead of refering to some "higher" authority like your part of a schoolastic sect. They are great and all; but 1. Balance at top tier-lvl and balance on any other lvl is two diffrent things. I think Terran mech vs Z proves this point quite clearly. 2. The risk that your are misreprsenting their opinions are higher than the chance your are right. If they have anything to say about any topic, let them say it themselves. | ||
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
Making them pass through units would be ridiculous, just watching it would look dumb and totally not in the style of starcraft. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
Experiments with ultra builds reminds me that 3/3 cracklings are nothing to sneeze at. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
However, I think the idea for having Zerglings not collide with Ultralisks needs to be looked at from the opposite direction. Give the zerglings a passive ability so that they do not collide with Massive. It would make them a better counter to Thors as well as increase synergy with Ultralisks. | ||
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Ideas
United States8088 Posts
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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
However, I do recall watching some casted matches recently by Day9 and Gretorp that featured some ultralisk use. | ||
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ajfirecracker
United States29 Posts
The Brood Lord is better than the Ultra in almost every situation, so the Ultra should either be able to tank for ground armies much more effectively, or it should be able to shred armor much more effectively. The second probably requires a really extreme bonus to armored on the ultralisk. Also, the ultralisk costs the same as 8 banelings, except that they only take up 4 supply. The ultralisk attack does worse damage to buildings than a single baneling, and worse damage to all non-armored targets. How pathetic is that? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
And you use banelings against non armoured units... Most problems with ultralisks can be slightly accounted for by overlord dropping them. Many examples from the day 9 daily where TLO would have easily broken a base simply dropping ultras through the wall [to kill the tanks] instead of trying to take down the wall itself. Thors are basically walls as well and can't kill OLs fast enough to drop you dropping them onto sieged tanks. I've seen much better players than me do much worse with ultras simply because they don't abuse this easy mechanic. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 14 2010 06:45 Ideas wrote: i think they should just give ultras a 1 or 2 range so they can attack over a zergling. allowing ultras to walk over zeals and marines and shit is pretty lame. They can already attack over a line of zerglings. | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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