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This is my first time making a topic on TL so please give me a break if I've done something wrong.
So essentially I want to talk a little bit about the lack of ultralisk usage in competitive play, the reasons for that and a potential solution to the problem.
IN SC:BW, ultra/ling was a great combination especially against terran bio. Why? The ultras ate the damage that allowed your cracklings to close. Even large groups of zerglings are very bad against an MM ball of sufficient size because they simply can't get close enough... a classic example of critical mass. Mixing in ultras made it possible for zerglings to kill marines. When combined with dark swarm, the ultra/ling strategy became even more powerful. Ultras were also used in ZvP since the primary midgame protoss army consisted of zealots, sairs, archons and a lot of storm. Storms were significantly less effective against ultras than against hydras or lings, and ultras also went up well against zealots.
So why aren't Ultras used much in SC2? They now have more hitpoints, more damage and hit in an area of effect. They also start fast and don't need a speed upgrade (although they're I believe slightly slower compared to their BW version). On paper, the SC2 Ultralisk looks much more powerful... but at present they really aren't.
So why is this? One of the obvious reasons is that there isn't any dark swarm in SC2, but the main reason is that they simply aren't able to synergize well with zerglings. Why not? They're really fat.
It takes only 1 or 2 ultralisks to essentially block off your entire zergling force from reaching your opponent if you're attacking through even a moderately large choke. If you send the zerglings first, they will get focus fired and die. Blizzard responded to the lack of ultra usage by giving them more damage to armored targets but reducing their hitpoints... a change that many TL users were not happy with because it really does not fit what the classic Ultra role is... tanking, not as a crackling substitute.
How do I suggest we fix the Ultra? Given them no collision with units with the "light" modifier. The concept is simple, allow zerglings to run at the feet of Ultralisks and attack with them. The idea is, the Ultra engages first and the lings run between their legs and start causing havok. This would also allow the Ultra to better fulfill the roll Blizzard intends, which is anti-armor. Let's think about each MU.
1) ZvT. Against bio, the effect is obvious. It's pretty much exactly as I describe above. Large marine counts may even warrant banelings between the Ultra's legs... Against mech, zerglings running underneath an ultra would face full tank splash, so that isn't necessarily the desired effect... but now consider that marines and helions are the two most common tank support unit, and both of them have the light modifier. Your ultras could just ignore and run over the marines or helions (both of which deal very little damage to ultras due to high armor) and start killing tanks with their boosted damage to armored units.
2) ZvP. One of the hardest late-game army compositions for a zerg to deal with is collosus, stalker, sentry, zealot. Blizzard has already removed the ability of forcefield to block an ultra, and this modification would mean that zealots can't either. The Ultra could run right past the zealots and start smacking the collossi and stalkers. Additionally, the zergling synergy would bode well since stalkers are quite bad against zerglings. A protoss player that elects to make immortals to kill ultras would have issues dealing with zerglings since doing so would eat into their collosus count by occupying their robo.
3) ZvZ. ZvZ rarely reaches such a late game, but in the rare cases that it does, ultra/ling would be a nice counter to mass hydra.
I'd love thoughts, comments.
Poll: Should Ultras have no collision with light units?Yes. (197) 56% No, Ultra's are fine the way they are. (78) 22% No, there's a better way to fix the Ultra. (46) 13% Yes, but this isn't enough. (15) 4% Yes, but we'd have to nerf them some other way. (13) 4% 349 total votes Your vote: Should Ultras have no collision with light units? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): Yes, but this isn't enough.
(Vote): Yes, but we'd have to nerf them some other way.
(Vote): No, Ultra's are fine the way they are.
(Vote): No, there's a better way to fix the Ultra.
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Not colliding with light units would be the perfect way to make them viable, i doubt they will be too strong either as there are lots of counters to Ultralisks (Marauders, Immortals, Hydralisks to name a few.).
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it is already viable just look at TLO's ZvT
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Banelings aren't light, so they wouldn't fit perfectly with ultras, but other than that, this sounds good. And crimsn, weren't those matches on Metalopolis, and the ultras only engaged in open spaces? Seems a bit too specific to make a case for it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Do what was done with the Thor and just make the model smaller.
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ultralisks are much stronger in the current patch. I dont think that dumbing down micro would be a good change at all.
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If anything needs to be done to improve ultralisks, which is unclear cause the last patch has has way too little uptime, I wouldn't change anything that would trivialize unit control (micro).
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On June 13 2010 23:30 crimsn wrote:
it is already viable just look at TLO's ZvT
Or ZvP.
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I completely disagree .. This only makes you able to a-move the 1 control group. Just control better, use the other numbers.
What's funny to me is that in the beginning everyone was saying that sc2 required no mechanical skill and now everyone wants to make it easier.. :D
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I think one possible solution would be to keep the model size of the ultralisk the same but make the collision size slightly smaller than the ultra. This would allow zerglings to run through and maybe room for a roach/hydra on the side to support. I don't think an ultralisk should be sitting on top of 8 hydras.
A more realistic option would be to create collision points only where the ultralisks' feet are.
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A more realistic option would be to create collision points only where the ultralisks' feet are.
I like this, but I still think that an ultra should not be able to stand over a tank or collosus, so we would still have to use the light modifier thing except where the feet are.
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Ultralisk are already viable.. i seen quite a few top zerg use them in the last patch. Just give it a bit more time and more will use them when they learn that they aint that bad anymore.
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Making them not collide would make it too easy, probably too powerful aswell.
Ultras are already viable, as has been proven already.
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I wouldn't mind a smaller ultralisk, but I'm not convinced the unit needs adjusting. I've seen at least a few good zergs use them effectively, and I've personally used them and faced off against them in ZvP where they're arguably the most useful. Ultras completely destroy a huge stalker army and they laugh at colossi.
In TvZ even if your'e right in saying that the ultras obstruct your army, they do their job of soaking up damage, letting your lings at least get close to that bio/mech ball. Yes 4 ultralisks don't destroy everything in their path, and they do seem to not usually be an insta-win once you get to them but I really don't think they've been explored enough to call them crap or even underwhelming. People just get their ultralisk cavern up and say "ok, nothing but ultras hehehehe".
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The major issue with Ultralisks is their collision with other units. Thors do have the same problem. This blocking results in them being useless, i.e. unable to reach their target to deal damage. Especially when trying to charge a Terran mech position it seems pointless to use Ultralisks when the tanks will kill them before they even get close. This will not change if the Ultralisks can walk over small units, because they will get killed before by a surplus of tanks anyways. If there is no surplus of tanks the Ultralisks are actually able to reach their target if used correctly. Zerg also have two other methods of deploying their ground forces and these should be used. For some inspiration I urge everyone who wants to figure out how to use them to watch Day[9] daily 131 and observe / listen how TLO uses them.
- Spread out the Ultralisks and attack several bases at once, thus maximizing the "front" at which you are fighting. This might mean that you are sacrificing one attack force, but that is a requirement to make your opponent defend everywhere.
- Only use a maximum of 3 Ultralisks in each attack force, unless the defensive positions of your opponent are weak AND they are wide open spaces (Metalopolis).
- Send in Ultralisks first to absorb the first shots from tanks and then run past them with Speedlings and after that your ranged units.
- Burrow(!) is a good upgrade for Ultralisks and obviously all armor upgrades will make it survive longer against smaller units with many shots.
- If you have an excess of Queens you might want to take them with the attack forces to act as combat medic for the Ultralisks. In BW there was Dark Swarm to prevent damage to Ultralisks, but in SC2 you have the power to heal them a big chunk instantly. Its the same effect, but SC2 is just a little more micro.
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NOOO,Terrans stormed this thread,run!
Ultra needs slight buff. No collision for light is a good idea.
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On June 14 2010 00:30 Kurumi wrote:
NOOO,Terrans stormed this thread,run!
Ultra needs slight buff. No collision for light is a good idea.
Protoss have storms ... Terrans nuke and EMP. :p
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Honestly I like your idea a lot.
But I only think zerglings and banelings would be the only unit who can fit in between the Ultra's legs. Zealots, marines, etc are just too big I find.
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i think that if they reduced the size of the ultra it would be alot better!! and the map design of almost all the blizzard maps is a graveyard for ultras its small maps with small chokes and lots of small ramps so if we got bigger maps with bigger ramps and bigger chokes that would actually make the ultra ALOT better..
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I think this would greatly enable the ultra to fit the role Blizz has set for it, a anti-armored unit. But since it's melee, it just can't get through the little guys fast enough. Plus with no collision from light, I could send my lings up the ramp at the same time as the clumsy ultras are trying to get up there.
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EPT
