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In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best.
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The video quality was really horrible. Can't remember that it's ever been so bad. Anyways... a lot of common sense/speculation, but I guess he's in a very good position to speculate at least.
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Excellent post Zanez.smarty. I especially agree with your last paragraph. The fact that the game has been opened up to people who have the strategy but not the 500 APM is helping the scene. People are less likely to quit and the game will become much more popular. At least for foreigners. I don't know much about the Korean scene but I imagine that they like SC2 as well.
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Hm why do people think e-sport will suddenly grow outside of korea because of sc2?
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Why would we want something like sc2 to evolve into something entertaining like Bw that we already have? For better graphics? For the grow of e-sport? Cause some players can't even handle more than 100 Apm? If WoW with their millions of fans cant attract more people to e-sport, sc2 probably won't, and Blizzard knows it too( why do they invade korea, when they could have the whole world?). I don't know why, really.
it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary
wow sry but thats just terrible. Im already super bad but yea 20 workers.. sure. Bw is hard ok but its not that hard to play as you make it out. ~150 apm really everyone can learn to perfom decently c/c- level in Bw. But you can spectacte and play sc2 on a high level? eh..
The fact that the game has been opened up to people who have the strategy but not the 500 APM is helping the scene
Im pretty sure if you want to be good, in terms of playing a legaue/tournament you will need as much apm as you can like in Bw. Even in wc3 most of the top players had around 200apm and more.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 13 2010 02:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best.
There are a lot of good points here, but I don't think a lot of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. The question isn't whether SC2 should ever replace Starcraft, but whether it should do so NOW. The answer to the first is a bit hard to tell at this stage, but in my opinion, given the state of balance and of B.Net 2.0 right now, the answer to the second question is a clear and resounding no.
SC1 is balanced and has a stable multiplayer platform. SC2 does not. What other factors would motivate you to consider SC2 as the better spectator e-sport to the point that it would *replace* SC1 in one of the most prestigious venues in existence for it? Until the game is for the most part balanced, and until B.Net 2.0 is stable enough to run tournaments 7 days a week, I don't think that SC2 is even in contention for taking over any SC1 tournaments.
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On June 13 2010 02:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 02:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best.
There are a lot of good points here, but I don't think a lot of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. The question isn't whether SC2 should ever replace Starcraft, but whether it should do so NOW. The answer to the first is a bit hard to tell at this stage, but in my opinion, given the state of balance and of B.Net 2.0 right now, the answer to the second question is a clear and resounding no. SC1 is balanced and has a stable multiplayer platform. SC2 does not. What other factors would motivate you to consider SC2 as the better spectator e-sport to the point that it would *replace* SC1 in one of the most prestigious venues in existence for it? Until the game is for the most part balanced, and until B.Net 2.0 is stable enough to run tournaments 7 days a week, I don't think that SC2 is even in contention for taking over any SC1 tournaments.
I don't think the OSL people are dumb enough to switch over before SC2 is finished. The bright side is that this will hopefully add some pressure to blizzards shoulders so they can get LAN/Chat/Tournament support up and running faster.
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On June 12 2010 21:34 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I quit SC2 and went back to BW. SC2 has been very underwhelming in my eyes, even vanilla SC is more exciting than SC2 tbh.
I think SC2 is too boring for casual players for it to become big, a lot of my casual friends much prefer watching SC1 over SC2 after I showed it to them. Hell even playing wise, they got bored of SC2 instantly while SC1 was a game they absolutely loved (and yes they were casuals).
Sports have hardly changed over decades, I don't see why new e-sports games have to replace old ones either.
Thanks for the video though, great as always.
I call shenanigans. You show any casual gamer who has never seen SC1 or SC2 and ask them to sit down for a few hours at each and pick which one they would prefer to watch as a spectator, they will pick SC2. No casual gamer is going to pick BW over SC2. And yes, sports have changed over decades. Even me, a person who hardly watches any sports, can see that. Things change. I don't think it's going to change as fast as Artosis is trying to make it seem so he can get some more views, but things will change.
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Wow, that's what they "negotiated" with gretech then...
Awesome, Blizz wins again
=/
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Those buildings look so shabby for such a big event
Anyway, bad video quality but interesting stuff
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@smarty: if you are into chess analogies:
Why is there such a thing as speed chess, even if there is clearly less strategic deepness in it? Because an other aspect of the game becomes more important: time management - this is very much the case in SC:BW (also because of the limited UI)
One could argue if you would rather watch a classic chess match with 4+ hours (because its so much more strategical), or a match of speed chess. But I think chess analogies are very bad for RTS games ^^
btw I'd love to watch a game on the 50x50ft board
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Guys, you need to understand that in order for some sport (not only ESPORTS) to be successful and watched there has to be a big skill gap between the "pros" and the "casual" players. If everbody could play like Messi, Jordan or Flash do you think that football, basketball and SC would be so popular as they are now? I watch the koreans play SC for 8 years now, because they do things I will never be able to do. I admire this a lot. This is what makes the game so interesting for me.
I dont know if the skill gap between the best SC2 players and the "casuals" will be so big, but I kinda doubt it (for the exact same reasons, people say BW is too hard for them - mbs, automining etc.)
I have watched a lot of SC2 streams and the only thing that made me "wow" was the crazy macro of Idra in one game (which he lost).
These is serious issue IMO and should be considered by the broadcasting companies.
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On June 13 2010 03:00 mdb wrote:
Guys, you need to understand that in order for some sport (not only ESPORTS) to be successful and watched there has to be a big skill gap between the "pros" and the "casual" players. If everbody could play like Messi, Jordan or Flash do you think that football, basketball and SC would be so popular as they are now? I watch the koreans play SC for 8 years now, because they do things I will never be able to do. I admire this a lot. This is what makes the game so interesting for me.
I dont know if the skill gap between the best SC2 players and the "casuals" will be so big, but I kinda doubt it (for the exact same reasons, people say BW is too hard for them - mbs, automining etc.)
I have watched a lot of SC2 streams and the only thing that made me "wow" was the crazy macro of Idra in one game (which he lost).
These is serious issue IMO and should be considered by the broadcasting companies.
Flash back to SC1 in beta - no one would've thought it had the potential.
It's short-sighted and rather pathetic that so many people are writing off SC2 as not being a good game.
IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET!
There's been no REAL opportunity for the game to evolve - the current player pool is relatively small and there's not a mass of professional players to really push the game forward.
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On June 13 2010 02:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:
In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best.
This is a great post.
Obviously the future for RTS is insanely great graphics (3D TV anyone?) with epic battles and explosions coordinated by Michael Bay himself. All the players need to do is type some lines of code that makes the unit do whatever they want, perfectly. When someone wants to change up what they do, all they have to do is type something like 'build drones', 'micro hydralisks'.
This will improve RTS by a whole lot because it will appeal to the masses (casual moviegoers LOVED transformers right?) and no one will need any mechanical skill because these are just APM sinks which have no place in a real time strategy.
+ Show Spoiler +PS: I wish more people would watch the video before commenting
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On June 13 2010 02:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 02:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best.
There are a lot of good points here, but I don't think a lot of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. The question isn't whether SC2 should ever replace Starcraft, but whether it should do so NOW. The answer to the first is a bit hard to tell at this stage, but in my opinion, given the state of balance and of B.Net 2.0 right now, the answer to the second question is a clear and resounding no. SC1 is balanced and has a stable multiplayer platform. SC2 does not. What other factors would motivate you to consider SC2 as the better spectator e-sport to the point that it would *replace* SC1 in one of the most prestigious venues in existence for it? Until the game is for the most part balanced, and until B.Net 2.0 is stable enough to run tournaments 7 days a week, I don't think that SC2 is even in contention for taking over any SC1 tournaments.
No offense but if you want to talk about balance you sure as hell can't talk about SC. Literally every unit in that game past the initial ones are broken, it's just a matter of finding other broken units to counter them.
75 mineral units that can 3-shot workers and drop 3 a-bomb mines for free?
Flying units that let you teleport things across the world instantly, even while dying, and also have an ability to completely disable a mass of enemy units? Oh yeah, and their passive is TO CLOAK EVERYTHING AROUND THEM.
Ground units that can eat other units for energy, burn down units' HP faster than the blink of an eye, and drop an AoE ability that completely denies ranged attacks?
There's imbalances EVERYWHERE in SC, in SC2 not so much.
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On June 13 2010 03:11 shurgen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 02:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:
In SC1, skill was measured over how well they can struggle with a limited interface.
Someone a long time ago brought up a good analogy that I am going to steal.
Imagine Turbo Chess. The game is about strategy planning and quick decision making. The interface is simple and easy to use (pieces on a black and white board). Much of the chess grandmasters are older men with mental strength. They are able to quickly form ideas and strategies in a quick time limit to overcome their opponent.
Now imagine the board was 50ftx50ft and every game piece weighed upwards of 60lbs. Suddenly all the grandmasters are struggling just moving a single piece correctly, and are replaced by buff 20 year olds with physical strength because they are able to move the pieces, while the older, more strategic gentlemen are having difficulty performing the strategies they envision because of physical limitations.
My point is that a game like SC should be about strategy and planning, and not about struggling with a limited interface. Many great players would be unable to play the game simply because it requires so much babysitting and effort to perform the simplest tasks.
So many people complain that SC1 took more skill, and I suppose that is true, if by skill you mean effort... But that is not my view. If you want to struggle with an outdated clunky interface, those people could go start up some competitive WC1...
I understand that SC1 has developed for years and such, and I have been following it for years. Whenever I played it, I got out and out demolished, because I couldn't handle the menial tasks and repetitive actions... But I enjoyed watching it very very much. I found it amazing that the people could pull off the things they could pull off... But that is all it ever was for me. A spectator Sport. I never had a hope of doing well myself. It was not that I wasn't strategic, that I wasn't good at executing tactics, and incapable of making decisions... it was that I found it frustrating to perform a powerful attack only to come back and find about 20 workers stationary... or that half of my units were blocked by a Dragoon on a ramp, or that another chunk of units would have randomly stopped along the way, the hotkey wouldn't have gone off quickly etc etc. I had the potential... but it was the frustration of overcoming a million petty, artificial, clunky and sloppy interface limitations (that were in no way a part of the actual game) that was holding me back.
Who knows how many quality players were turned off of playing BW because of such mechanics.
BW had its run. It was fun to watch, and still will be. But what people here don't seem to understand is that it needs to die one day; and when it does, it won't be to a game that places arbitrary interface limitations onto people. Removing MBS, Automining and Smartcasting would be stupid. These things are here to stay. What needs to occur in SC2 is a way to increase the skill ceiling that does not involve placing stupid restrictions in the game that make the game hard to play for the low levels of play.
Personally, I find SC2 just as fun to watch as BW, because I can play SC2 at a high level. I understand what they are doing, why and what I would do different. If I were high level BW I could do the same thing, but since I never was, I kinda just need to take everything they do at face value. In SC2, the game has yet to evolve and has 2 expansions that will add to Multiplayer. It has places to go for Balance and esport evolution. Did anyone ever watch some of the first progaming games of BW? God were they boring.... SC2 isn't nearly as boring as that was, and it isn't even released yet.
It seems to me that a lot of people are scared of change. SC2 didn't live up to their impossibly high standards, and so they say it sucks. Well, there is no way ANYTHING would live up to those standards. Just like the game BW has evolved, the opinion of it has too. If there was no developed proscene for BW then I can guarantee that a good 90%+ people wouldn't think twice about it.
Give SC2 a chance to develop and remember where SC1 was at this time: There was no Brood War (or the units/upgrades that came with it), there was no Pro Scene, the game was not balanced, all the maps were broken and imbalanced and the good players had about 100 APM at best. This is a great post. Obviously the future for RTS is insanely great graphics (3D TV anyone?) with epic battles and explosions coordinated by Michael Bay himself. All the players need to do is type some lines of code that makes the unit do whatever they want, perfectly. When someone wants to change up what they do, all they have to do is type something like 'build drones', 'micro hydralisks'. This will improve RTS by a whole lot because it will appeal to the masses (casual moviegoers LOVED transformers right?) and no one will need any mechanical skill because these are just APM sinks which have no place in a real time strategy. + Show Spoiler +PS: I wish more people would watch the video before commenting
He is advocating strategy over APM, not low APM over high APM.
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Anyone who actually thinks the competitive BW scene is going anywhere for at least a few more years is completely naive. It's going to take years for sc2 to get to the competitive level required to completely replace BW as spectator entertainment. Even if (and I do think think its a big IF) sc2 becomes more popular in Korea a year or so from now, BW will have to becomes decidedly unpopular for them to actually stop hosting tourneys, (especially considering how much spectator overlap could be cultivated.)
A lot of this anti-sc2, Brood War forever sentiment displayed on this forum is evidence of why BW won't simply fade away. And call me crazy, but I have a feeling this attitude is even more common amongst Koreans than that of EU/NA gamers. There not looking for a replacement, if anything, there's a healthy population that is threatened by the concept.
Equally naive is this assumption that most known top gamers, would consider "switching" out. As many more pragmatic posters have touched on already, a large part of the skill in BW is related to dealing with an interface that is simply outdated. It doesn't make the game less compelling to watch or in anyway take away from the talent these guys show, but its a reality I think people would do best to accept. Why would someone who knows their amongst the best in the world at BW (i.e. flash, jaedong ect) want to switch games to something they may very well not be not as proficient at?
It wouldn't surprise me if BW matches were still showing 6 years from now. Or if the real last OSL was a decade from after sc2 release.
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On June 13 2010 03:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 03:00 mdb wrote:
Guys, you need to understand that in order for some sport (not only ESPORTS) to be successful and watched there has to be a big skill gap between the "pros" and the "casual" players. If everbody could play like Messi, Jordan or Flash do you think that football, basketball and SC would be so popular as they are now? I watch the koreans play SC for 8 years now, because they do things I will never be able to do. I admire this a lot. This is what makes the game so interesting for me.
I dont know if the skill gap between the best SC2 players and the "casuals" will be so big, but I kinda doubt it (for the exact same reasons, people say BW is too hard for them - mbs, automining etc.)
I have watched a lot of SC2 streams and the only thing that made me "wow" was the crazy macro of Idra in one game (which he lost).
These is serious issue IMO and should be considered by the broadcasting companies. Flash back to SC1 in beta - no one would've thought it had the potential. It's short-sighted and rather pathetic that so many people are writing off SC2 as not being a good game. IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET! There's been no REAL opportunity for the game to evolve - the current player pool is relatively small and there's not a mass of professional players to really push the game forward.
I suppose you missclicked when quoting my post, because I`ve never said that SC2 is a bad game and it wont evolve. On the contrary, in previous post I said that is a great game to play, but poor to watch. And one of the reasons I`m not sure that SC2 will make it big as a broadcasted ESPORT is because it is relatively easy compared to BW.
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Flash back to SC1 in beta - no one would've thought it had the potential.
It's short-sighted and rather pathetic that so many people are writing off SC2 as not being a good game.
IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET!
Exactly thats why Broodwar should continue in korea and playing a little sc2 besides and looking where the game stands in 1 or 2 years and decide then, like it should be done, and probably will be done. There were starleagues for wc3 too.
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I want to add something from my personal experience and opinion to the "sc2 takes over":
As I grew up with blizzard rts, my younger brother was more a FPS gamer. at a certain age we both started to play competetive (sometimes hardcore, sometimes casual). He allways found BW and WC3 interesting as he saw me playing it. He also tryed those games himself but he never really got into it.
Recently I was surprised when I saw him watching SC2 VODs. I asked him several questions because I wanted to know what kind of insight he has and why he finds those highlevel matches interesting, and I was surprised that he has quite some knowledge about the game that he never played. His knowledge is rudimentary but he kinda knows whats going on and that I find interesting. (After this I explained some key concepts ofc, so he may enjoy watching the game more and probably try it out himself).
What I want to show with this, is that Blizzard does a very good job with SC2 (not with Bnet2). And that younger gamers like the game because it is very clear what happens on the battlefield, even if they do not know about timings, builds etc.
Also the community and especialy the casters/commentators do their best to make SC2 even better.
Gamers like my younger brother respect SCBW for what it is, even if they did not play it and only saw a few matches here and there, mainly because its interesting for them how the koreans treat it. I also know a hole bunch of people in my age that still watch SCBW matches even if they did not play the game for several years.
Even if the younger gamers/viewers respect SCBW: for them its absolutely clear that SC2 will be the new big thing in the RTS competitive and esport scenes, because for them it is much more rewarding to watch a SC2 match. Why? It looks better and its easyer to see what happens.
You may say "lol its alot easyer to see what happens in BW than in the overloaded graphics of SC2!". This might be true for hardcore SCBW veterans. But there are many things that are far less clear BW for a new player. Spells for example. As me and my brother watched a recent BW match he asked me: What does darkswarm again? But as he saw an infestor mindcontroling in SC2 it was 100% clear what happens. Also the death animations: In SC2 if something burns units then the units actually burn etc. Such details give the spectators a more entertaining and clear experience.
I think that people like Hwanni know that SC2 will draw alot of attention, and that there are tournaments to be made and sponsors to be found. So far I think Blizz did a very good job with the game. And I also think that they had to! The big difference between video games and chess/sports its that they evolve constantly and that esports is a mixture of sports and entertainment. But this also has a lot of potential, because if you want that people watch the ultimate challenge of minds then you have make it entertaining and give it a nice looks.
Its still a great challenge to make SC2 the new king of RTS because the old one is a legend and will allways be. But I dont think that the old one can reign forever (even if some ppl like to believe this). Also SC2 will allways be overshadowed by the fact that SC1 was the firstborn and perfect. But its about time that starcraft gets new fans, players, viewers and communities all over the world.
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Artosis you're being so retard on last osl winner Effort. Why do you feel the need to share your opinion on that? We don't care.
I was just about to stop bw how funny...
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EPT
