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OSL prelims + Hwanni interview - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
438 CommentsPost a Reply
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kli6891
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States143 Posts
June 12 2010 18:23 GMT
#281
I hope flash wins this one, if it is indeed his last chance.

He needs a golden mouse!
WhistlingMtn
Profile Joined May 2010
United States190 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 18:38:37
June 12 2010 18:30 GMT
#282
On June 13 2010 03:23 kli6891 wrote:
I hope flash wins this one, if it is indeed his last chance.

He needs a golden mouse!


Indeed, though I have a feeling that Flash's play style is going to be very effective in SC2 ( for future golden mice )
KCrazy
Profile Joined August 2009
United States278 Posts
June 12 2010 18:45 GMT
#283
it would be such a travesty if flash doesn't get his golden mouse D:
"We need alcohol" ~Stork
Xinliben
Profile Joined May 2009
United States931 Posts
June 12 2010 18:48 GMT
#284
Starcraft 2 is fun to play but it doesn't compare to SC1 as a spectator sport. At all. I am disgusted.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery"
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
June 12 2010 18:57 GMT
#285
StarCraft must go on QQ
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
June 12 2010 18:57 GMT
#286
I had a lot of fun watching the sc2 tournaments. Some of the games I was kinda bleh about when it just seemed like 2 unknowns, but having players that people know and can get behind(like they do JD, Flash) will increase peoples interest a lot.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
barth
Profile Joined March 2008
Ireland1272 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 19:02:11
June 12 2010 19:01 GMT
#287
On June 13 2010 03:48 Xinliben wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fun to play but it doesn't compare to SC1 as a spectator sport. At all. I am disgusted.

Yeah. I thought BW popularity among the fans is going strong in Korea and OGN and MBC will do a lot to find a solution with Gretech. Hold in there BW.... hold in there. Two or three more seasons would be at least somewhat satisfiable, until SC2 grows to be a better spectator game (if it ever will).
"Somebody you are talking to disappears mid sentence, and the universe shoots you because you talked to someone that wasn`t there." - MasterOfChaos
RoieTRS
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States2569 Posts
June 12 2010 19:03 GMT
#288
Dear Sirlin,

I know you like fighting games. Fighting games are kinda cool. But be careful when commenting about a genre you have no idea about. The very fact that you could even suggest that lessening the physical tasks required to play optimally (APM/mechanics etc etc) would raise the strategy level of the game is ridiculous.

First of all why are you even talking about genres? Starcraft is not part of a 'real time strategy' or 'strategy' genre. Starcraft is starcraft and nothing can compare to it because it is unique in the fact that its the only game ever invented to not only require such intense physical skills (APM/mechanics) but an even deeper sense of knowledge of strategy and even further the ability to apply that knowledge in the right situations. Starcraft is Starcraft and to classify it with any other 'strategy' game is a joke. Warcraft 3 is a joke. Command and Conquer is a joke. Age of Empires is a joke. Etc Etc. And don't try to brush me off thinking I'm just another overzealous Starcraft fan. I'm not. I've played all those games and talked to countless pros that have played those games on a top competitive level and guess what they all say: "yeah my game sucks SC is way better." THEY ADMIT IT!

In all your idiocy you are kinda right on a certain level when you say 'lessening the mechanics will make it more of a strategical game.' This will be very true. But only true at the very beginning or maybe the first 6 months-yearish. As with all new strategy games players will continuously come up with all sorts of new strategies that they can use to outsmart and outwit their opponents. If Starcraft2 is made how you want it to be a lot of geniuses that would have otherwise failed because they have no dextrous skills will be owning it up with their brilliant strategies. This will only last a year. After a while everyone will know the optimal strategies and your brilliant creators of strategies will now be average joe schmoes. Now you could try to argue that with non-stop new maps to use new strategies on the brilliant players will always have their edge. But I'm going to tell you right now your argument would be null and void. When you play starcraft you have many limitations based on what matchup you're playing and the type of map it is. Even if you keep drastically changing maps the general limitations will always remain the same and players will have to do similarish-type opening builds and the game simply won't be fun. It will only be interesting for the first year or so due to strategies still being discovered + constant balance changes by Blizzard forcing people to adapt.

Starcraft in all its complexity is a vey simple game. Every unit and/or unit combination crushes certain combinations and can be crushed by other certain combinations (other than late tech monster tech combos obviously). If everything is so easy to do (you don't have to macro like crazy and fly around everywhere making sure to take care of everything) and everyone knows which units in which amounts at what times are best against certain races and situations (due to replays expediting the learning curve for everyone) what will games be decided by? Perhaps by imbalance, perhaps by luck, perhaps by brutal small mistakes that can't be made up for. Is that fun? No.

The first year will be fun, yes, after that no one will give a fuck about the game anymore and it certainly won't be a good spectator sport. The reason why the strategies in starcraft are so complex are because of the multitude of unique situations that come up due to differences in players' mechanical ability as well as strategical ability. This is true on all levels of play from complete newbie to top-tier pros. Two newbs play eachother one of them has better mechanics and can pump more units and expand faster but the other guy is more strategically advanced so he makes the right units at the right times...vwalla we have a good game.

I mean listen to yourself. You are ranting that if you dumb down the APM/mechanics requirements it will be a better strategy game. Okay LOL suuuure man... In that case the player with a better strategical grasp / more experience will always win. There will be no way for the lesser player to win right? Thats why Starcraft is interesting....some guy that watches a lot of replays and studies the game a lot but is really slow can get raped by some idiot with high APM and good macro. This is what drives players to improve their strategies AND mechanics. Also...as much strategy as there is in Starcraft...a high % of the strategies are straight up GAMBLING/RISK build orders. Do you even realize this? Because starcraft is such a fast paced game and relies on players making split second executive decisions players are able to take huge risks to try and win. STRATEGY in starcraft is a non stop series of calculated risks taken by players and will only work when taking place in a high paced mechanics oriented game. Often times its not a STRATEGY at all, it's just one player doing an all-in build hoping to get lucky lol (or he thinks he can predict his opponents build).

What the fuck is a strategy to you anyways? Go Corsair DT against zerg to kill the overlord and expand safely? LOL is that a strategy? WOW WHAT A SICK STRATEGY!!!! SO BRILLIANT. No. The strategy is to use your insane high APM to execute the build with perfect timing so that you can harass overlords and wiggle that little fucker into zerg's main. Ooops he had it blocked! Oh well I have an expansion up and running now time to frantically figure out what he's doing so I can quickly pump out the precise strategically correct unit combination that will allow me to come behind from this small deficit and seal my next expansion all the while sick microing my shuttle with dt/ht in it to harass to get my edge back. <-- If all your probes go directly to minerals and you can select infinite units on whatever keys and mass macro from all your gates would this be hard? No. Should it be hard. Yes. The very fact that SC requires sick mechanics and strategy is why we have progamers and starcraft on TV. It is only when a player is completely stressed by all the tasks he must complete by clicking everywhere to pull off the strategies he intends on doing that we can see who has real talent and who doesn't. Thats why PRO sc is so fun to watch as well...these guys are so fast and clean that they can execute brilliant new strategies and unreal timing attacks with raw perfection all the time due to their insane mechanics. This is why even the best of the best rarely break a win % higher than 70%. We would never see this if they all could just easily macro by pressing two keys. There wouldn't be a difference between Mumyung and Jaedong. Games will either be one sided because one player is smarter and more strategically advanced or games will be even and decided by some simple mistake rather than decided by some brilliant combo two sided attack. And that, would be a huge problem.

I mean...are you even aware of the fact that Savior has a low APM compared to other pro-gamers? His revolutionary defiler use and muta control alone parted the sea of progamers as he earned himself the title of Bonjwa. Do you even play Starcraft? Do you even know who Park-Jung-Suk is? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? LOL.

We are Starcraft players. Every game we play we are simply rolling the dice with our strategies based on limited information, but we know that the faster and more efficiently we play with our good execution the higher our chances get. Sometimes the dominos fall perfectly and we win. Sometimes AVGJOE27 on USWest is actually a smurfing Korean monster pro and he picks up our dominos and eats them then laughs at us. Sometimes we practice countless hours for months straight only to forget zealot speed at the WCG Grand Finals and lose the most important game of our lives. Even though we thought we were the best one there we fall short of our dreams and expectations. Do we blame the game? Fuck no. Do we whine about how it's not fair because the other guy was too fast? Fuck no. We are Starcraft players. We take it like men and only blame no one but ourselves.

If we, the foreign players that have gotten butt-raped by Koreans because of their superior APMs countless times in competitions where it counts don't cry about how it's not fair for people with superior mechanics to have such an edge, then what gives a bone headed fighting game nerd like you the right to do so? Just do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up. I can't believe I just wasted my time writing all this obvious common sense shit.

I mean fuck it man...Make starcraft easier to play? LOL THEY SHOULD MAKE IT HARDER TO PLAY.

This isn't the Special Cyber Olympics. THIS IS STAAAAAAAAAAARCRAFT

konadora, in Racenilatr's blog: "you need to stop thinking about starcraft or anything computer-related for that matter. It's becoming a bad addiction imo"
DatTheMighty
Profile Joined March 2009
Vietnam122 Posts
June 12 2010 19:05 GMT
#289
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
June 12 2010 19:12 GMT
#290
On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Endorsed
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands1221 Posts
June 12 2010 19:14 GMT
#291
I think I myself am a perfect example why SC:BW will eventually die and SC2 won't in the near future. I watched those Battle Reports and was instantly hooked, because of the commentaters and good graphics I could understand what was going on, on a very basic level. I thought it was very enjoyable and began playing the SC2 beta. After 3 weeks i'm still hooked and I want to improve. I tried watching SC:BW but I just couldn't understand anything, even with English commentators. I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad. With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that.
wiesel
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany727 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 19:36:34
June 12 2010 19:20 GMT
#292
I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad.

Seems logical...

With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that.

Are you serious lol, i mean it's a damn a car what do you think it's gona do picking up flowers?
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
June 12 2010 19:25 GMT
#293
On June 13 2010 04:14 Endorsed wrote:
I think I myself am a perfect example why SC:BW will eventually die and SC2 won't in the near future.

You're a perfect example of something.
DatTheMighty
Profile Joined March 2009
Vietnam122 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 19:29:48
June 12 2010 19:27 GMT
#294
On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-


Yes it is, the first question that Artossis asked was "Do you think this might possibly the last OSL?", the answer was "No, I don't think so, it might continue with starcraft 2, or it might go on with broodwar". You guys need to stop believing everything you're told. This does not spell the end for broodwar. Artosis came in with clear intentions of getting specific answers and thats what he got and thats what he posted, but i think its all very distorted.

The first page of responses were all moanign about the death of broodwar, obviously from that quote alone.
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 20:09:07
June 12 2010 20:07 GMT
#295
On June 13 2010 04:27 DatTheMighty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:
On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-


Yes it is, the first question that Artossis asked was "Do you think this might possibly the last OSL?", the answer was "No, I don't think so, it might continue with starcraft 2, or it might go on with broodwar". You guys need to stop believing everything you're told. This does not spell the end for broodwar. Artosis came in with clear intentions of getting specific answers and thats what he got and thats what he posted, but i think its all very distorted.

The first page of responses were all moanign about the death of broodwar, obviously from that quote alone.


he said that it might go on with broodwar for a while

EDIT:

@Artosis: Why do you actually think that SC2 will take over the throne? It seems that this is your opinion.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Alou
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States3748 Posts
June 12 2010 20:35 GMT
#296
On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-


Yes it is. Hwanni never says BW is over. Artosis seems to take his answer that it may or may not be over and that he really doesn't know or doesn't want to share anything yet as a sign that SC2 will reign supreme. Which as much as I want to see happen, I know it won't happen as quickly as Artosis wants to make it out to be.
Life is Good.
shalafi
Profile Joined July 2008
394 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-12 20:40:19
June 12 2010 20:40 GMT
#297
On June 13 2010 05:35 Alou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:
On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-


Yes it is. Hwanni never says BW is over. Artosis seems to take his answer that it may or may not be over and that he really doesn't know or doesn't want to share anything yet as a sign that SC2 will reign supreme. Which as much as I want to see happen, I know it won't happen as quickly as Artosis wants to make it out to be.


Yes, it's kind of sad that many former BW foreign celebs support SC2 because they see their chances in SC2, while they know they'll never be successful at BW :/
Yggdrasil Leaf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
221 Posts
June 12 2010 20:51 GMT
#298
On June 13 2010 04:14 Endorsed wrote: I tried watching SC:BW but I just couldn't understand anything, even with English commentators. I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad. With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that.


Where's a fucking bridge?
"A person hears only what they understand" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Therapist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States97 Posts
June 12 2010 20:59 GMT
#299
Artosis be trollin =)
Thrasymachus725
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada527 Posts
June 12 2010 21:05 GMT
#300
To continue on my concept of interface struggling:

The theory of the perfect strategy game would be like this:
No interface limitations, infinite strategy.
What this would look like, is something like a mind-machine interface where your thoughts control the units. No interface, No unit AI, but infinitely responsive units (units need to do exactly what you want them to do, nothing more, nothing less).
This would mean that the game is not limited to how fast you can click the mouse, or order the units, or even what menial tasks you remember to do. If you want your Roaches to move in front of your Hydralisks, they do it. If you want your Marines to concave properly, they do. If you want your Mutalisks to scoot-n-shoot, then they will do that... No stupid patrol and hold position abuse.

This would be the PERFECT strategy game. They would be fun to watch because it is ALL about strategy and not about who has the strongest fingers and who has a better mastery of the broken clunky interface. ANYONE could pick it up and play it, and there will be a very strong set of people up at the top. Anyone can work their way to the top with enough practice of STRATEGY. The game will do what you want it to do, rather than what your fingers can do.

A game like that would have a low skill ceiling, which would mean it would make a lousy spectator esport, UNLESS they had a HUGE amount of strategy and options.

SC1 is on the wrong end of the spectrum. It is a great spectator sport, because there is a perfect balance of strategy and interface struggle. In order to KEEP the balance that makes it a great spectator sport, and still advance the strategy game esport, we need an increase in strategy and a decrease in interface struggle.

This is the problem that we have with SC2:

As the interface struggle goes down, the options and strategy in a game need to go up. If it does not, then the skill ceiling goes down and it becomes boring to watch.
In SC2, the interface struggle has gone down significantly, but the strategy has probably not gone up all that much. Again, it is early in the game's life, so we don't know for sure, but I doubt it.
Blizz can change it, patch it, add stuff in the expansions, etc etc, so I think it is far too early WAY premature, and completely asinine to preach doom this early in the games life.

The meaning of life is to fight.
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