OSL prelims + Hwanni interview - Page 15

On June 13 2010 03:23 kli6891 wrote:
I hope flash wins this one, if it is indeed his last chance.

He needs a golden mouse!

On June 13 2010 03:48 Xinliben wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fun to play but it doesn't compare to SC1 as a spectator sport. At all. I am disgusted.

Dear Sirlin,

I know you like fighting games. Fighting games are kinda cool. But be careful when commenting about a genre you have no idea about. The very fact that you could even suggest that lessening the physical tasks required to play optimally (APM/mechanics etc etc) would raise the strategy level of the game is ridiculous.

First of all why are you even talking about genres? Starcraft is not part of a 'real time strategy' or 'strategy' genre. Starcraft is starcraft and nothing can compare to it because it is unique in the fact that its the only game ever invented to not only require such intense physical skills (APM/mechanics) but an even deeper sense of knowledge of strategy and even further the ability to apply that knowledge in the right situations. Starcraft is Starcraft and to classify it with any other 'strategy' game is a joke. Warcraft 3 is a joke. Command and Conquer is a joke. Age of Empires is a joke. Etc Etc. And don't try to brush me off thinking I'm just another overzealous Starcraft fan. I'm not. I've played all those games and talked to countless pros that have played those games on a top competitive level and guess what they all say: "yeah my game sucks SC is way better." THEY ADMIT IT!

In all your idiocy you are kinda right on a certain level when you say 'lessening the mechanics will make it more of a strategical game.' This will be very true. But only true at the very beginning or maybe the first 6 months-yearish. As with all new strategy games players will continuously come up with all sorts of new strategies that they can use to outsmart and outwit their opponents. If Starcraft2 is made how you want it to be a lot of geniuses that would have otherwise failed because they have no dextrous skills will be owning it up with their brilliant strategies. This will only last a year. After a while everyone will know the optimal strategies and your brilliant creators of strategies will now be average joe schmoes. Now you could try to argue that with non-stop new maps to use new strategies on the brilliant players will always have their edge. But I'm going to tell you right now your argument would be null and void. When you play starcraft you have many limitations based on what matchup you're playing and the type of map it is. Even if you keep drastically changing maps the general limitations will always remain the same and players will have to do similarish-type opening builds and the game simply won't be fun. It will only be interesting for the first year or so due to strategies still being discovered + constant balance changes by Blizzard forcing people to adapt.

Starcraft in all its complexity is a vey simple game. Every unit and/or unit combination crushes certain combinations and can be crushed by other certain combinations (other than late tech monster tech combos obviously). If everything is so easy to do (you don't have to macro like crazy and fly around everywhere making sure to take care of everything) and everyone knows which units in which amounts at what times are best against certain races and situations (due to replays expediting the learning curve for everyone) what will games be decided by? Perhaps by imbalance, perhaps by luck, perhaps by brutal small mistakes that can't be made up for. Is that fun? No.

The first year will be fun, yes, after that no one will give a fuck about the game anymore and it certainly won't be a good spectator sport. The reason why the strategies in starcraft are so complex are because of the multitude of unique situations that come up due to differences in players' mechanical ability as well as strategical ability. This is true on all levels of play from complete newbie to top-tier pros. Two newbs play eachother one of them has better mechanics and can pump more units and expand faster but the other guy is more strategically advanced so he makes the right units at the right times...vwalla we have a good game.

I mean listen to yourself. You are ranting that if you dumb down the APM/mechanics requirements it will be a better strategy game. Okay LOL suuuure man... In that case the player with a better strategical grasp / more experience will always win. There will be no way for the lesser player to win right? Thats why Starcraft is interesting....some guy that watches a lot of replays and studies the game a lot but is really slow can get raped by some idiot with high APM and good macro. This is what drives players to improve their strategies AND mechanics. Also...as much strategy as there is in Starcraft...a high % of the strategies are straight up GAMBLING/RISK build orders. Do you even realize this? Because starcraft is such a fast paced game and relies on players making split second executive decisions players are able to take huge risks to try and win. STRATEGY in starcraft is a non stop series of calculated risks taken by players and will only work when taking place in a high paced mechanics oriented game. Often times its not a STRATEGY at all, it's just one player doing an all-in build hoping to get lucky lol (or he thinks he can predict his opponents build).

What the fuck is a strategy to you anyways? Go Corsair DT against zerg to kill the overlord and expand safely? LOL is that a strategy? WOW WHAT A SICK STRATEGY!!!! SO BRILLIANT. No. The strategy is to use your insane high APM to execute the build with perfect timing so that you can harass overlords and wiggle that little fucker into zerg's main. Ooops he had it blocked! Oh well I have an expansion up and running now time to frantically figure out what he's doing so I can quickly pump out the precise strategically correct unit combination that will allow me to come behind from this small deficit and seal my next expansion all the while sick microing my shuttle with dt/ht in it to harass to get my edge back. <-- If all your probes go directly to minerals and you can select infinite units on whatever keys and mass macro from all your gates would this be hard? No. Should it be hard. Yes. The very fact that SC requires sick mechanics and strategy is why we have progamers and starcraft on TV. It is only when a player is completely stressed by all the tasks he must complete by clicking everywhere to pull off the strategies he intends on doing that we can see who has real talent and who doesn't. Thats why PRO sc is so fun to watch as well...these guys are so fast and clean that they can execute brilliant new strategies and unreal timing attacks with raw perfection all the time due to their insane mechanics. This is why even the best of the best rarely break a win % higher than 70%. We would never see this if they all could just easily macro by pressing two keys. There wouldn't be a difference between Mumyung and Jaedong. Games will either be one sided because one player is smarter and more strategically advanced or games will be even and decided by some simple mistake rather than decided by some brilliant combo two sided attack. And that, would be a huge problem.

I mean...are you even aware of the fact that Savior has a low APM compared to other pro-gamers? His revolutionary defiler use and muta control alone parted the sea of progamers as he earned himself the title of Bonjwa. Do you even play Starcraft? Do you even know who Park-Jung-Suk is? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? LOL.

We are Starcraft players. Every game we play we are simply rolling the dice with our strategies based on limited information, but we know that the faster and more efficiently we play with our good execution the higher our chances get. Sometimes the dominos fall perfectly and we win. Sometimes AVGJOE27 on USWest is actually a smurfing Korean monster pro and he picks up our dominos and eats them then laughs at us. Sometimes we practice countless hours for months straight only to forget zealot speed at the WCG Grand Finals and lose the most important game of our lives. Even though we thought we were the best one there we fall short of our dreams and expectations. Do we blame the game? Fuck no. Do we whine about how it's not fair because the other guy was too fast? Fuck no. We are Starcraft players. We take it like men and only blame no one but ourselves.

If we, the foreign players that have gotten butt-raped by Koreans because of their superior APMs countless times in competitions where it counts don't cry about how it's not fair for people with superior mechanics to have such an edge, then what gives a bone headed fighting game nerd like you the right to do so? Just do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up. I can't believe I just wasted my time writing all this obvious common sense shit.

I mean fuck it man...Make starcraft easier to play? LOL THEY SHOULD MAKE IT HARDER TO PLAY.

This isn't the Special Cyber Olympics. THIS IS STAAAAAAAAAAARCRAFT

On June 13 2010 04:05 DatTheMighty wrote:
Such a misleading Original Post, I don't know what your deal is Artosis but in the interviewing you're sort of pushing him to say Broodwar is over and even then hes not even saying in down right. That quote you put in is so out of context.

I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad.

With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that.

On June 13 2010 04:14 Endorsed wrote:
I think I myself am a perfect example why SC:BW will eventually die and SC2 won't in the near future.

On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-

On June 13 2010 04:27 DatTheMighty wrote:


Yes it is, the first question that Artossis asked was "Do you think this might possibly the last OSL?", the answer was "No, I don't think so, it might continue with starcraft 2, or it might go on with broodwar". You guys need to stop believing everything you're told. This does not spell the end for broodwar. Artosis came in with clear intentions of getting specific answers and thats what he got and thats what he posted, but i think its all very distorted.

The first page of responses were all moanign about the death of broodwar, obviously from that quote alone.

On June 13 2010 04:12 clickrush wrote:


no its not. you should listen more carefully instead of bashing artosis -.-

On June 13 2010 05:35 Alou wrote:


Yes it is. Hwanni never says BW is over. Artosis seems to take his answer that it may or may not be over and that he really doesn't know or doesn't want to share anything yet as a sign that SC2 will reign supreme. Which as much as I want to see happen, I know it won't happen as quickly as Artosis wants to make it out to be.

On June 13 2010 04:14 Endorsed wrote: I tried watching SC:BW but I just couldn't understand anything, even with English commentators. I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad. With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that.