EPTOSL prelims + Hwanni interview - Page 17
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blith
Canada69 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 13 2010 07:48 Dionyseus wrote: SC1 and SC2 are a lot more complex than chess. Complexity=/=Depth. If I drew a bunch of lines, it would be really complex. It wouldn't be deep. Chess is a game of pure strategy. In other words, anticipating your opponents moves and reacting to them. But it is deep because a person is required to think 50+ moves ahead on a proffesional level and 20+ moves ahead on a hobbyist level. I cannot meaningfully anticipate strategic options in Starcraft on the same level I can in chess. Starcraft lacks the structure for meaningful strategic thought without micro and macro factors on the same degree as chess. Just like a bunch of lines lacks the structure to be deep despite being complex. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On June 13 2010 07:14 Zanez.smarty wrote: I think you will need to clarify and back up your argument. ? the only reason SCBW has been successful is because of the macro/micro elements of the game. So i think YOU need to back up ur statement. | ||
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Deadlyhazard
United States1177 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:13 Half wrote: Complexity=/=Depth. If I drew a bunch of lines, it would be really complex. It wouldn't be deep. Chess is a game of pure strategy. In other words, anticipating your opponents moves and reacting to them. But it is deep because a person is required to think 50+ moves ahead on a proffesional level and 20+ moves ahead on a hobbyist level. I cannot meaningfully anticipate strategic options in Starcraft on the same level I can in chess. Starcraft lacks the structure for meaningful strategic thought without micro and macro factors on the same degree as chess. Just like a bunch of lines lacks the structure to be deep despite being complex. i dont understand these people who say stuff that supports the arguement of the guys they're arguing with.. The only reason SC is complex is because it employs both strategic and micro/macro elements of the game. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:25 Sfydjklm wrote: i dont understand these people Yes, you don't. because The only reason SC is complex is because it employs both strategic and micro/macro elements of the game. Thats my fucking point. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:26 Half wrote: Yes, you don't. because Thats my fucking point. quoting is complicated | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
lol sorry then. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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mitten
10 Posts
In other words, this is interesting to see but totally useless with respect to the future of OSL and disappointing as to how far one can trust Artosis to report things. | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:36 mitten wrote: This whole thing is silly. Artosis walked into this saying "I want to make a video about how this might be the last OSL". Then Hwanni directly said "No, I don't think so.".... and then Artosis continued to press his cause. In other words, this is interesting to see but totally useless with respect to the future of OSL and disappointing as to how far one can trust Artosis to report things. I agree that Artosis isn't exactly a news reporter  He tends to have opinions he wants voiced | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 13 2010 02:30 Alou wrote: I call shenanigans. You show any casual gamer who has never seen SC1 or SC2 and ask them to sit down for a few hours at each and pick which one they would prefer to watch as a spectator, they will pick SC2. No casual gamer is going to pick BW over SC2. And yes, sports have changed over decades. Even me, a person who hardly watches any sports, can see that. Things change. I don't think it's going to change as fast as Artosis is trying to make it seem so he can get some more views, but things will change. Except I have, and they preferred SC1. One of my friends (who plays ALOT of WoW) never played SC1 before until he watched Flash on GomTV last year (shown to him by a friend), then he started watching it every day. He doesn't play SC, but he prefers SC over SC2. My other friend only played the campaign, but played SC multiplayer against the AI a few times. That was until I showed him pro SC and he got really excited about SC2. So I gave him a BETA key and he basically got bored and quit on the first day, but still likes SC1 both with watching and gameplay. He never plays SC but that's what he thinks. Another friend who plays SC a bit with friends and his family in a LAN only, no ICCUP. He only plays BGH, and has trouble figuring out how to beat a turtling terran. However he still much prefers SC1 over SC2. SC1 is a visually simpler to understand game, more barracks = more units, more bases = more money, defending > attacking, this isn't the case with SC2. Without these factors + micro and flanking, casuals will end up getting confused as to how someone won a game. SC1 is also a lot more visually spectacular than SC2. Psi-Storms, Spider mines, Dark Swarm, Reavers, Carriers, etc. Clutch play in SC2 will be rare, and when it does happen, it won't seem to make any sense. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
i started teh video with the question: "Is this the last OSL?" i asked hwanni for an interview to get his take on this. hwanni said it will probably switch over to SC2. nothing definite. he let you all in on a much more educated opinion than any of you have ever heard before. i did not push him one way or the other lol. | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On June 13 2010 09:22 Artosis wrote: lotta dumb posts in here from people who didn't listen to the video. i started teh video with the question: "Is this the last OSL?" i asked hwanni for an interview to get his take on this. hwanni said it will probably switch over to SC2. nothing definite. he let you all in on a much more educated opinion than any of you have ever heard before. i did not push him one way or the other lol. The way you presented the information in the OP as well as the beginning of the video strongly suggested that you had super insider information about plans to switch over the next OSL. True, people should have watched the video, but the way you presented it was bound to be misunderstood. What was actually in the video was you saying "Is this the last OSL?" and Hwanni speculating. Yes, he is obviously knowledgeable, but he did not give any concrete knowledge of any plans, and didn't really give any sort of opinion one way or the other on whether this will be the last BW OSL. The only opinion he really gave was his speculation that it will probably eventually switch to SC2. You go into a video asking "Is this the last OSL?", strongly implying "yes" in the intro. And then, in the interview, you receive no answer of the sort. But nonetheless you post the video and a thread that strongly implies that this is going to be the last OSL. Nothing concrete, but when you say the following, what are people supposed to think? "Yesterday was, perhaps, the last OSL qualification ever. I went down to the OSL with my trusty camera, and spoke to one of the most knowledgeable people in all of eSports, Hwanni. [...] 'OSL will probably switch over to SC2'" Then when we watch the video, it really looks like you're just pushing your own agenda without offering any concrete answers. Your OP was bound to start rumors that really have no backup. It's not the interview that we have a problem with; it's the way you presented it. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:13 Half wrote: Complexity=/=Depth. If I drew a bunch of lines, it would be really complex. It wouldn't be deep. Chess is a game of pure strategy. In other words, anticipating your opponents moves and reacting to them. But it is deep because a person is required to think 50+ moves ahead on a proffesional level and 20+ moves ahead on a hobbyist level. I cannot meaningfully anticipate strategic options in Starcraft on the same level I can in chess. Starcraft lacks the structure for meaningful strategic thought without micro and macro factors on the same degree as chess. Just like a bunch of lines lacks the structure to be deep despite being complex. Chess is not just strategy, there's lots of tactics and positional theory involved too. And yet it isn't as complex as SC1 and SC2. I'll try and explain why. Chess is a linear game. On average there's only a certain amount of moves you can make on your turn. This is why in chess it is possible to think a certain amount of moves ahead. SC1 and SC2 are not linear at all, and are not turn-based games. You can anticipate your opponent's army composition and where your opponent might expand but unless you are actively scouting the opponent might do something entirely different. As chess is a turn-based game you have the priviledge of having clock time on your move. FIDE, the international chess federation, uses a time control of 90 minutes for the first 40 moves and 30 minutes for the rest of the game with an addition of 30 seconds per move. Depending on how much time you have left you can literally sit there for over an hour thinking about your move, or about women, while your opponent sits there anxiously waiting for your move. In SC1 and SC2 you don't have the luxury of relaxing and thinking about what you will do next, they are very fast paced games where every second counts. I'm not saying chess isn't complex, it's very complex, it'd probably take at least a century to solve the game even though today's computer chess engines already are much stronger than the strongest human players. What I'm saying is that SC1 and SC2 are even more complex and there's absolutely no possibility of solving these two games. | ||
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
On June 13 2010 09:22 Artosis wrote: lotta dumb posts in here from people who didn't listen to the video. i started teh video with the question: "Is this the last OSL?" i asked hwanni for an interview to get his take on this. hwanni said it will probably switch over to SC2. nothing definite. he let you all in on a much more educated opinion than any of you have ever heard before. i did not push him one way or the other lol. You didn't push him at all. But you put up an OP that made people assume you had definite information. Not everyone is going to spend their time watching the video. They are going to see the title and react. Whether you meant to or not, a lot of people assumed you had proof that this was the last or one of the last BW OSL's and they freaked when all you had was a bunch of ambiguous statements. Thanks for the interview, but word your initial post better next time if you don't want a "lotta dumb posts." | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On June 12 2010 12:54 blade55555 wrote: Wow that is awesome :D On June 12 2010 12:57 RogerChillingworth wrote: It's so much more difficult to control units in Brood War. In contrast to SC2, or rather going from SC2 to Brood War, it's a big pain in the ass. I endorse this switchover. RTS is evolving. Good-bye, former best RTS of all time. On June 12 2010 13:08 KevinIX wrote: Sweet! I can't wait to see actual pro's play SC2! On June 12 2010 13:09 TelecOm1 wrote: this is the beginning of a new era On June 12 2010 13:14 Alou wrote: Change is scary, but good in the end. On June 12 2010 13:19 Jusciax wrote: The sooner SC2 gets progamers cracking at it, the better it is for its future, this is awesome. On June 12 2010 13:18 Subversion wrote: Why is this a bad thing? It's just an evolution. I'm excited to see SC2 grow as a game and where the Koreans can take this. You guys forget how much ass SC1 sucked when it first came out. SC2 is only in beta and we've already seen some really awesome stuff. Just imagine what the game can grow into with it being played at a professional level in Korea. SC1 sucked for years, and way harder than SC2 (which is actually pretty damn good.) Don't be so afraid of change, give the game a chance to develop and grow. On June 12 2010 15:15 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I want Baby to play Zerg in SC2! So much potential... On June 12 2010 16:22 Dionyseus wrote: This is great news. All good things must come to an end, and after 12 years BW should move over and give the new generation a chance. On June 12 2010 22:44 drewbie.root wrote: have you played sc2? have you been on top of diamond league? no you are just a little noob, and anyone who goes and plays over 500 games of SC2 will never be able to play BW again, because you will realize what the rest of the world sees. The graphics are god awful horrible, the pathing is completely RETARDED, and you need to spend half your time in the game sending workers to mine. lol. SC2 is the future, get on board, it is better than BW. User was temp banned for this post. On June 13 2010 01:53 killanator wrote: Can they at least wait until the game is out? and maybe a few balance patches? progaming is dead......... On June 13 2010 03:13 LUE.Leoj wrote: No offense but if you want to talk about balance you sure as hell can't talk about SC. Literally every unit in that game past the initial ones are broken, it's just a matter of finding other broken units to counter them. 75 mineral units that can 3-shot workers and drop 3 a-bomb mines for free? Flying units that let you teleport things across the world instantly, even while dying, and also have an ability to completely disable a mass of enemy units? Oh yeah, and their passive is TO CLOAK EVERYTHING AROUND THEM. Ground units that can eat other units for energy, burn down units' HP faster than the blink of an eye, and drop an AoE ability that completely denies ranged attacks? There's imbalances EVERYWHERE in SC, in SC2 not so much. On June 13 2010 04:14 Endorsed wrote: I think I myself am a perfect example why SC:BW will eventually die and SC2 won't in the near future. I watched those Battle Reports and was instantly hooked, because of the commentaters and good graphics I could understand what was going on, on a very basic level. I thought it was very enjoyable and began playing the SC2 beta. After 3 weeks i'm still hooked and I want to improve. I tried watching SC:BW but I just couldn't understand anything, even with English commentators. I couldn't understand anything of SC:BW because the graphics are so bad. With SC2, it's like. Hey a guy with a gun, he can shoot stuff, I understand that. But with SC1 it's like, hey some strange looking car thingy what the hell is that. On June 13 2010 08:23 Deadlyhazard wrote: Good. Very good. I'm glad to see this -- let's hope SC2 will be the game BW is, especially a few years on down the road! :l.. | ||
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Leoj
United States396 Posts
On June 13 2010 09:20 sluggaslamoo wrote: Except I have, and they preferred SC1. One of my friends (who plays ALOT of WoW) never played SC1 before until he watched Flash on GomTV last year (shown to him by a friend), then he started watching it every day. He doesn't play SC, but he prefers SC over SC2. My other friend only played the campaign, but played SC multiplayer against the AI a few times. That was until I showed him pro SC and he got really excited about SC2. So I gave him a BETA key and he basically got bored and quit on the first day, but still likes SC1 both with watching and gameplay. He never plays SC but that's what he thinks. Another friend who plays SC a bit with friends and his family in a LAN only, no ICCUP. He only plays BGH, and has trouble figuring out how to beat a turtling terran. However he still much prefers SC1 over SC2. SC1 is a visually simpler to understand game, more barracks = more units, more bases = more money, defending > attacking, this isn't the case with SC2. Without these factors + micro and flanking, casuals will end up getting confused as to how someone won a game. SC1 is also a lot more visually spectacular than SC2. Psi-Storms, Spider mines, Dark Swarm, Reavers, Carriers, etc. Clutch play in SC2 will be rare, and when it does happen, it won't seem to make any sense. Um, in SC2 if you want more units you make mor barracks. In SC2 if you have more bases you're mining more money. I don't see why defending needs to be > attacking to be a balanced game. This posts goes to show how little you understand about SC2. | ||
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
One last OSL, then time to quit Progaming... it feels like a relationship you never want to quit even though you know it will ends someday. | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On June 13 2010 08:08 blith wrote: ah some good old artosis and his rumors Remember how back in March 2009 he expected the beta to be "just around the corner"? | ||
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