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I was curious about which attack upgrades actually had a measurable difference (ie. number of hits) against various other units. So I made a program to simulate matchups and out came a giant chart.
Extremely well balanced, almost every upgrade is useful against every other unit. Kinda amazing actually. Most of all the first upgrade (+1) makes a big difference.
Yes it takes into consideration special things like hardened shields, number of attacks, zerg regen, etc, and it's up to date with patch 15.
Some interesting ones like +1 on mutas dropping stalker hits to kill from 20 to 17! that and +2 on roaches being less than stellar in a ZvZ matchup (no effect on lings or on hydras as compared to +1).
"Upg" column is number of hits, "Time" column is how many seconds it takes to kill one, "Win" column is if this unit beats the other in a 1v1.
Will probably do a "cost for cost" chart later on.
EDIT: Added armor upgrades and shield upgrades. Only on the XLS file for now. As expected, armor/shield upgrades are really only useful against low damage units like zerglings or marines, and have no effect in some cases, for example, Zerg against Terran mech.
Here it is in Excel: http://www.tacticstudios.com/downloads/sc2_upgrades.xls
Here it is in Text: http://www.tacticstudios.com/downloads/sc2_upgrades.txt
Here is the source code: http://www.tacticstudios.com/downloads/sc2_src.rar
Karma
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Really nice work man!! :D
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Tanks, that was actually just the thing I was looking for  A couple of things are wrong though as according to your charts Sieged Tanks can shoot BC's/ Banshees and Vikings while Thors are apparantly unable to hit air 
Maybe you did the 'ol Switcheroo?
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Might want to fix your text file - Long names push all the columns to the right.
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On June 06 2010 10:52 Saechiis wrote:Tanks, that was actually just the thing I was looking for A couple of things are wrong though as according to your charts Sieged Tanks can shoot BC's/ Banshees and Vikings while Thors are apparantly unable to hit air Maybe you did the 'ol Switcheroo?
He fixed whatever you were seeing. I can't find the discrepancy.
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Saechiis for the thors and vikings I split them into two: Thor "Air" and Viking "Air". I should probably couple these together. For the tanks I'm not sure where you're seeing that, maybe reading it backwards? The ones on the left are the attackers, right is the defender. For me it shows:
Siege Tank Viking Air Unhittable
Siege Tank Banshee Unhittable
Siege Tank Battlecruiser Unhittable
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Good work but does it take into account bonus damages? For example, I see it says Baneling takes 2 hits to kill a Zergling, which is false.
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Very cool. I'm going to use this.
Any chance we can get workers put into it too? I'd be curious to see which harassing units could kill workers in less hits with an upgrade or two.
Also, you should freeze the top row using 'freeze panes' so it stays there while the rest of the sheet scrolls.
Thanks much =)
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Wooops Good catch Ocedic. Yes it takes those into account but things that killed exactly (ie. 35 dmg to 1 zergling) didn't count correctly. Fixed!
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"Thor Mutalisk Unhittable"
It's definately there in the Text version, the Siege tanks being able to hit air is fixed (or I'm blind ).
Edit: Oooh, I get it now ... but why the Thor vs Thor Air split? Seems logical that it uses Air attacks vs air and Ground attacks vs ground. Besides my confusion and blindness, great job 
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wow kudos to you for doing this work
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Missing Queen. Otherwise, amazing information.
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Great job, but I think you accidentally set Banelings as a light unit in your program. Also, I think that you set reaper's HP to 40 instead of 50 (that's what the data looks like). Other than that, its pretty sweet.
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On June 06 2010 11:29 sk` wrote:
Missing Queen. Otherwise, amazing information.
I would also like to see overlord and workers
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You also have to take zerg regeneration into account, since zerg units always regenerate a miniscule amount of health(it's displayed as 1 extra health, since the game display rounds health up, but it's actually less) between any two attacks and since the engine is linear, you can't have two attacks happen at exactly the same time, so the only case where the regeneration does not apply is one hit kills.
For example: mutas die to 7x2 phoenix/viking attacks, instead of 6x2(at equal upgrade levels).
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Wow. Mad props, this is absolutely amazing!
I'm really really looking forward to when you get the costwise compariosn up and running. Though it would probably be somewhat wrong since you will have large battles then, and then splash damage would be hard to interpet correctly, and given the fact that ranged units get off more hits as melee units are approaching. But give it your best shot and I'm looking forward to reading your results. Also would be nice to see if this thread has correct in that ultralisks have no costwise ground-counter.
I would also like to see a column for defensive upgrades. I guess this wouldn't be too much work, you just add 3 more columns with -1, -2 and -3 upgrades, corresponding to the case where the defender has the armour upgrades. There would actually be cases not covered where you have both attack and armour upgrades (not all cancel one-for-one), but for simplicity I think you should assume that there are only armour or attack upgrades present, not both.
Anyway. Great work and keep it up!
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Wow! If you don't mind me asking how long did it take you to do this?
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Nice chart indeed.
You could also add Ultralisk +2 armor and maybe point defense turrent/infested terran, etc.
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thanks for all your work! :-)
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Seriously awesome. How about static defenses?
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Great work, but as someone else said, did you include zerg regen? It's fairly significant.
This is definitely an amazing resource to have lying around, though, to just reference when theorizing builds.
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Wow dude thats a lot of work, good shit
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Thanks a lot, I was really curious about this as well!
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Superawesome, ive been searching for a list like this for weeks! Thank you, great job.
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Is the Ultra being counted as Heavy Armor? Immortal needs 27 shots or sth and stalker need more shots than zealots do, doesn't seem right.
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wow thats pretty nice and very useful!
thank you very much.
i think that many people struggle to use the upgrades right. I also played WC3 some time and upgrades weren't nearly as gamechanging as in BW.
Here are some of the most significant upgrades:
-Zealot (+1) Vs Zergling (2 hit Zerglings instead of 3 hitting)
-Roach (+1) Vs Zergling (2 hits instead of 3)
-Baneling (+1) Vs zealots (4 hits instead of 5)
-Colossus (+2) Vs Zergling (1 hit instead of 2)
-In Muta Vs. Muta, the +armor upgrades are the most useful, because the Muta attack hits 3 times (9+3+1). So insetad of preventing 1 dmg, you prevent 3!
As you can see, if you wan't to try certain build that revolve araound timing attacks, it's very useful the make the right upgrades and use that timing to push out.
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I come from a Wc3 background where upgrades weren't that useful and game changing at all. I like the idea of upgrades paying a bigger role as it adds another dimension in the macro part.
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It seems that you only need +1 to get the most out of siege tanks
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On June 06 2010 21:48 dhe95 wrote:
It seems that you only need +1 to get the most out of siege tanks
Well not really you have to account for the splash damage as well, the more the better.
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Could you include numbers for phoenix vs all units? With their graviton beam, they can actually attack every non-massive unit in the game.
Otherwise it's really useful, thanks a lot!
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Thanks for this great work,
definately good to have this for theorycrafting
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Great list, I think it may be easier for you to have a specific reference "sheet" in excel with the unit and all their values, this way you can add hilariously detailed information to the primary page; taking into account bonus damage, zerg regen, and Upgrades that add not only to base damage, but to bonus.
Excellent start though, way to put in the effort to get this done.
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Has anyone quantified the effect of the Protoss shield upgrade yet? It applies to buildings and units so I guess it would be less effective overall for units compared to armour, but what about in the case of immortals who gain relatively more from the presence of their shields. Sorry if this is the wrong thread didn't feel it warranted a new one to ask though.
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Alright updated:
1. Reaper HP fixed, 40->50
2. Added Queen, workers
3. Added Zerg regen (0.2734 per second)
4. Fixed Ultra being treated as unarmored
5. Added Phoenix attacking ground
6. Consolidated Thor / Viking to 1 unit
7. Added freeze panes to the excel
RattyZ: The reference "sheet" is the source code. It does take into account all those things you mentioned.
Reza: Took a few hours. Most of the time was spent just gathering/inputting all the data. The code to run it is very short (about 150 lines or so)
Armor upgrades will come soon... Cost for Cost (which I'm very curious about!) will be fairly incorrect because it won't account for splash or micro or anything, plus you have to assume a certain "fighting" style (ie. I'm going to make it focus fire units). But I will take into consideration range (I have all the unit speeds and ranges so should be able to calculate that no problem).
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Roaches with +2 attack kill a Hydra in 5 rather than 6 attacks, good to know for ZvZ.
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I never excepted a +1 reaper to be able to take a hydralisk O.O
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Updated again: Added armor/shield upgrades as well.
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If I'm reading this right, shield upgrades are nearly a complete waste of time (for units)? Might as well get 3/3 on the others first...
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I love that ultralisks are the longest lasting unit against every other unit except immortals, archons last longer vs immortals. lol
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great work, gonna get alot of use out of this(unless they patch the game during the downtime )!
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With the armor upgrades? who is getting upgraded? the "Unit" being attacked by the "against" or the "against" being attacked by the "unit"
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This is great work. I know its something in progress, so I will put in my input/2 cents and what I found quite significant! I hope this helps because this is very useful and that you may do more stuff like this.
- I know this may be out of the ball park to include, but if you can include how many hits(with or without upgrades) it takes to take out Buildings with each race. This may be a different list on its own, but you can just include only for banelings/Ultralisk/Reapers, because of how these units have separate attacks that are only for buildings.
- I think someone already asked to add Static defenses against all units(with or without armor upgrades). This may be very useful to know how much each unit can take from each defensive building.
- Include infested Terrans? Perhaps list attacks to just workers may make sense.
- Frenzy? Corruption?
Like I said, these may all be out of the ball park suggestions to include, but if certain numbers can back up certain tactics and theorycrafting, you may help change the game as we know it now. Thanks and good luck man, you are doing the community a huge favor.
Also... Ultras(0upgrade) - Ghost = 7 hits, Tanks = 5 hits....LOL, lets hope Blizzard doesnt make a cinematic about this.
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On June 06 2010 21:10 Melt wrote:
-In Muta Vs. Muta, the +armor upgrades are the most useful, because the Muta attack hits 3 times (9+3+1). So insetad of preventing 1 dmg, you prevent 3!
Does the muta attack upgrade only give bonus to the first glave and not the last two hits?
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PrinceXizor: In the armor ones - "Against" gets the upgrade.
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Nice. Very useful, even without the upgrades information, just seeing how many hits it takes vs different units is very revealing... e.g. Hellions takes 23 hits to take down a Roach but only 6 (4 with pre-igniter) against a hydralisk.. also suprising that it takes the same amount of hits to bring down a zealot as a stalker. Anyway, it gives you a good idea what the unit is effective against.
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The only thing i think might be useful to include is the attack duration to kill a unit from a already charged void ray. Simply because they are easy to charge up on buildings before engaging the enemy force,
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You should totally make UI to that program so it could fit most of needs posted here.
(UI that lets you customize some parameters like upgrades on victim, who and when does its first hit, sth like that.)
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Totally awesome but the text version could use some tabbing
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On June 07 2010 01:53 Genesis128 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 21:10 Melt wrote:
-In Muta Vs. Muta, the +armor upgrades are the most useful, because the Muta attack hits 3 times (9+3+1). So insetad of preventing 1 dmg, you prevent 3! Does the muta attack upgrade only give bonus to the first glave and not the last two hits?
It gives a bonus to all three hits, but the bonus is reduced just as the main attack, you get 1/3 and 1/9 damage on the second and third hits, while armor decreases all hits by 1.
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On June 07 2010 04:41 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 01:53 Genesis128 wrote:On June 06 2010 21:10 Melt wrote:
-In Muta Vs. Muta, the +armor upgrades are the most useful, because the Muta attack hits 3 times (9+3+1). So insetad of preventing 1 dmg, you prevent 3! Does the muta attack upgrade only give bonus to the first glave and not the last two hits? It gives a bonus to all three hits, but the bonus is reduced just as the main attack, you get 1/3 and 1/9 damage on the second and third hits, while armor decreases all hits by 1.
Does it really count fractional damage? Is this somewhere stored in the units and not shown so that three second-glance muta hits causes one extra damage. I guess at level three upgrade, the second hit will cause an extra full point of damage, but up untill that point, it is still helping somewhat? But yeah, point taken. The armour upgrade is a much better option.
On topic. I was very curious on what upgrade to get in a ZvZ where one person goes lings and the other roaches. I see that the roaches will go from 3shotting zerglings, to two-shotting them with one attack-upgrade, but I think that the armour upgrade would be vastly superior since the zerglings deal so low damage to begin with. My personal thoughts on upgrades is quite simple actually. If you will be doing most of the hitting (i.e. mass zerglings), then get the attack first. If you will be hit the most (thors), then get the armour first.
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On June 07 2010 00:09 Karma_ wrote:
Alright updated:
1. Reaper HP fixed, 40->50
2. Added Queen, workers
3. Added Zerg regen (0.2734 per second)
4. Fixed Ultra being treated as unarmored
5. Added Phoenix attacking ground
6. Consolidated Thor / Viking to 1 unit
7. Added freeze panes to the excel
RattyZ: The reference "sheet" is the source code. It does take into account all those things you mentioned.
Reza: Took a few hours. Most of the time was spent just gathering/inputting all the data. The code to run it is very short (about 150 lines or so)
Armor upgrades will come soon... Cost for Cost (which I'm very curious about!) will be fairly incorrect because it won't account for splash or micro or anything, plus you have to assume a certain "fighting" style (ie. I'm going to make it focus fire units). But I will take into consideration range (I have all the unit speeds and ranges so should be able to calculate that no problem).
There's errors with the regen. For example: I noticed that ghosts are shown as 2 shotting drones with no upgrades and +1 reapers 4 shotting hydras and 2 shotting drones. If you're using a formula to calculate it there's some strange error in it.
As a simple alternative you could just add 1 hp to zerg units in the calculations, since that's effectively how much they have in a typical engagement(i.e. army vs army with quick deaths and focus fire and not one on one, where they have more time to regen).
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On June 07 2010 04:49 Genesis128 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 04:41 lololol wrote:On June 07 2010 01:53 Genesis128 wrote:On June 06 2010 21:10 Melt wrote:
-In Muta Vs. Muta, the +armor upgrades are the most useful, because the Muta attack hits 3 times (9+3+1). So insetad of preventing 1 dmg, you prevent 3! Does the muta attack upgrade only give bonus to the first glave and not the last two hits? It gives a bonus to all three hits, but the bonus is reduced just as the main attack, you get 1/3 and 1/9 damage on the second and third hits, while armor decreases all hits by 1. Does it really count fractional damage? Is this somewhere stored in the units and not shown so that three second-glance muta hits causes one extra damage. I guess at level three upgrade, the second hit will cause an extra full point of damage, but up untill that point, it is still helping somewhat? But yeah, point taken. The armour upgrade is a much better option. On topic. I was very curious on what upgrade to get in a ZvZ where one person goes lings and the other roaches. I see that the roaches will go from 3shotting zerglings, to two-shotting them with one attack-upgrade, but I think that the armour upgrade would be vastly superior since the zerglings deal so low damage to begin with. My personal thoughts on upgrades is quite simple actually. If you will be doing most of the hitting (i.e. mass zerglings), then get the attack first. If you will be hit the most (thors), then get the armour first.
Yes, it does count fractional damage, the amount displayed is just rounded up. This was also the case in Brood War.
Edit: About the roach vs ling, the attack upgrade reduces the amount of hits needed to kill a zergling by 33.(3)%, while upgrading armor decreases the zergling damage by 25%, so the attack upgrade is more effective.
They were both equally effective when the roach had 2 base armor, but now the attack upgrade is clearly superior.
You would want to have enough attack upgrades to 2 hit lings and upgrade armor after that, so you need +1 roach attack against 0 zergling armor, and +2 against +1 or +2 and +3 against +3.
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lololol: Good catch. I had it truncating non-integer HP (ie. if you had 0.1 hp, it considered it 0 hp) whereas SC does not.
Reuploaded with regen calc fixed.
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Well this is the best chart I've seen, wonder if its all right lol. You sure you didn't make it up JK Really nice work.
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Not sure why you don't have non-combat units on the receiving end of the chart, it would be useful to know how many Phoenix shots it takes to kill an Overseer/overlord, or how many viking shots to kill an observer, etc. Please add this in the future
Otherwise, much appreciated.
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line 1236 SCSandbox shouldn't you ceil the results... you do not want to round
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Very impressive! This will really come to good use.
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lwbhs: Yes you're right. The error shouldn't affect anything except Thor anti-air (since it's only thing with > 2 attacks) but I'll fix it up and repost
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right under Corruptor, Corruptor using Corruption would be awesome
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Really nice chart must have took a while to make.
This got me trying out all kinds of things in that unit tester UMS and i actually found one thing that is kinda ridicilous.
Haven't noticed this in any games (not playing Z) but 1 baneling vs 1 baneling the one who sits still (on hold) and doesn't attack gets to live with 10 hp but and only the attacker dies.
You have on your chart that baneling vs baneling one shots it.
Weird enough but baneling is just biological not light so it makes only 20 dmg to it.
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I love this!
Most notable thing for me was how much the Queen's anti air benefits from upgrades.
A queen with +3 upgrades uses less than half the hits of an non-upgraded one against all air units.
Non-upgraded Queen vs Void Ray: 27 seconds to kill
+1 upgraded Queen vs Void Ray: 20 seconds to kill!
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Thanks man this is awesome! It would be really cool to make some kind of macro maybe even with an excel user form to extract information from it. Or even something more.
If your interested in doing that I would be happy to help .
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awesome work man. you should add the viking in ground mode, though.
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Thanks for the code, all the units in objects is sure to be useful for simulations.
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This is definitely very interesting and will be useful in planning builds and such. Thanks a lot for all of your hard work man, this is really impressive!
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I know this is an old post, but I was wondering if anything like this has been done for the recent patch. I'm thinking about putting an upgrade chart together, but wouldn't really want to do it if the project has been done. There is also some more data I would like expressed.
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i realize though that these numbers dont mean much since every army composition will have the synergy of different units. the only cases this may not be true is in certain particular zvz battles
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On June 29 2011 08:48 JiYan wrote:
i realize though that these numbers dont mean much since every army composition will have the synergy of different units. the only cases this may not be true is in certain particular zvz battles
That's not really why I revived this dead thread....
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How much will things have really changed since then? I don't think there's been any direct buffs/nerfs to damage, aside from on siege tanks. For the most part, bliz has kept things limited to range, speed, and other more subtle factors recently.
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There is an error with Stalkers and Marauders, ironically the values for Marauder attack upgrades are actually the same as a Marauder against a Sentry because of how the bonus values scale
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EPT
