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Ultralisk has no ground-unit counter?

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MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-06 09:08:20
June 06 2010 09:07 GMT
#1
In an open field battle without choke points, is there a single ground unit that beat Ultralisks for cost? I just tried out every single Terran ground unit in the unit tester vs. Ultralisk and none could defeat them. Not even Siege Tanks in Siege Mode is close.

Obviously you can go air or abuse choke points but apart from that Ultralisk seems very cost efficient.
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
June 06 2010 09:08 GMT
#2
siege tanks and archons will do it
Hasire
Profile Joined February 2010
United States125 Posts
June 06 2010 09:09 GMT
#3
Marauders, Immortals and 500MM cannon thors stop them completely, usually without taking much or any damage.

Zealots take damage, but beat them mineral-for-mineral without using any gas.
Odium
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany14 Posts
June 06 2010 09:10 GMT
#4
Marauder counter ultra with stim, because they are faster. Just stim and run back, shoot and run back again.
However. I saw a game where a fungal growthed mmm ball was raped by ultras and banelings, since they weren´t able to micro. So always watch for those nasty little bugs ^^
Azerbaijan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States660 Posts
June 06 2010 09:10 GMT
#5
When you tried Marauders did you have them stim and focus fire?
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
June 06 2010 09:11 GMT
#6
10 sieged up tanks kill an ultralisk in a single attack volley if you focusfire.
Also a thors 250mm cannon kills an ultralisk in one spell.
30 marauders with medivac support can kill ultra's relatively easily.
Banshee's are the bane of all ultralisks.

There you go ^^.
TTSA_SBR
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia64 Posts
June 06 2010 09:13 GMT
#7
i think he means cost effective, not just what unit composition is breast
rape me once, shame on you... rape me twice and ill poo on your dick.
virusak
Profile Joined December 2009
Czech Republic344 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-06 09:18:08
June 06 2010 09:16 GMT
#8
wow I tried Imm vs Ultra now and Ultra has some serious splash damage, it hits 3 imm in a line (I a line in the direction from the ultra, not stacked around it) so they get pretty much raped cause if you have 4ult vs 4imm all the immortals take damage from all the ultras

was it always so big?

On June 06 2010 18:11 Chaosvuistje wrote:
10 sieged up tanks kill an ultralisk in a single attack volley if you focusfire.
Also a thors 250mm cannon kills an ultralisk in one spell.
30 marauders with medivac support can kill ultra's relatively easily.
Banshee's are the bane of all ultralisks.

There you go ^^.


and what about toss?
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-06 09:20:01
June 06 2010 09:16 GMT
#9
Marauders do not beat them. I just tried Maruders with concussive grenades and the Ultralisk won easily:
4 Ultralisk (1200 Min 800 Gas 24pop) vs
16 Mauraders (1600 Min 400 Gas 32 pop)
= 2 Ultralisk left

However if you also add stim it is about even but Terran has to use more pop.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
June 06 2010 09:16 GMT
#10
If something did beat it, we would complain about that unit.
People hated the Zergling rush in SC1 for the same reasoning...
something has to be first- or best. Especially in a narrow aspect of the game.
Lings, were the first unit that could be made, so naturally, people want to mass them and attack early.
Ultras, in the open field, massed up, with no chokes, will walk over just about anything on the ground. If it wasn't the Ultralisk, it would be something else. Hence we would have to complain about that unit.

Hide from them! Siege up! Yes they trample ForceFields! Make buildings, get Immortals and VoidRays... do something!!
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
Sandrosuperstar
Profile Joined November 2009
Sweden525 Posts
June 06 2010 09:19 GMT
#11
On June 06 2010 18:13 TTSA_SBR wrote:
i think he means cost effective, not just what unit composition is breast


But if you talk cost effectivness and want the numbers you get to have any meaning in the game then you have to add the cost it takes to get to ultras starting from wich tier the ultras are facing (so if they're facing marines then you should add the whole cost of teching up to ultras and micro the marines aswell just to get things in a more realistic perspective) Well the only way to really know is to make a build i guess
I'm homo for Lomo, gay for GGplay, but at the end of the day I put my dong in Lee Jaedong
Hasire
Profile Joined February 2010
United States125 Posts
June 06 2010 09:20 GMT
#12
On June 06 2010 18:16 MockHamill wrote:
Marauders do not beat them. I just tried Maruders with concussive grenades and the Ultralisk won easily:
4 Ultralisk (1200 Min 800 Gas 24pop) vs
16 Mauraders (1600 Min 400 Gas 32 pop)
= 2 Ultralisk left

However if you also add stim it is about even but you have but Terran has to use more pop.


Why did you let even 1 marauder get hit, let alone all 16?

You shouldn't be taking any damage at all, let alone actually losing units.



[Also, Ultras are massive, concussive doesn't effective them]
baytripper
Profile Joined May 2010
United States170 Posts
June 06 2010 09:20 GMT
#13
unit tester is kind of irrelevant since you can't really get enough ultralisks to match siege tanks in cost

it only takes what 11, 12 tanks to one-shot an ultralisk? it's no feat at all to have a dozen tanks by the time you can safely tech to ultralisks

it's not the kind of unit you counter, you just have enough stuff and then they can't get close to you
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
June 06 2010 09:22 GMT
#14
On June 06 2010 18:16 MockHamill wrote:
Marauders do not beat them. I just tried Maruders with concussive grenades and the Ultralisk won easily:
4 Ultralisk (1200 Min 800 Gas 24pop) vs
16 Mauraders (1600 Min 400 Gas 32 pop)
= 2 Ultralisk left

However if you also add stim it is about even but you have but Terran has to use more pop.


400 gas is way more expensive than 400 minerals. Also, why wouldn't you be stimming? The fact that it is about even when you stim those marauders mean ultras still suck. You probably also didn't manually spread them to avoid damage. The outrage should be because ultras, one of the pinnacles of zerg tech cannot defeat marauders, one of the earliest units that terrans can get cost effectively.
Wake up Mr. B!
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
June 06 2010 09:27 GMT
#15
12 Siege Tanks in Siege Mode 1800 Min 1500 Gas 36 pop) vs
6 Ultras (1800 Min 1200 Gas 36 Pop)
= 2 Ultras left

Same result with and without focus fire.
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
June 06 2010 09:33 GMT
#16
Its because your doing relatively small, 1 type of unit battles. Of course Ultras will do alot of damage. The real problem with ultras is that in a real game, against an army with a huge unit composition, the ultras basically die before they can even attack more than a few times.
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
zotax
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden20 Posts
June 06 2010 09:34 GMT
#17
It all come down to micro skill, to be off the edge here, divide those rauders in 3-4 c-groups and micro flawlessly, the poor ultras wont stand a chance. there is NO way to really test unit against unit, sure you can just a-move them toward each other and well let them die. but that just dont happen in the real world.. If u gonna test, test with a partner that does all in hes power to kill unit blah with blah.

and yeah Thors 250mm cannon stun the target for the 500dmg duration, meens well they die, dont get close enough to even get a hit in. But that to you can offcourse not a-move test.
i would test 2 thors vs 4 ultras, 2 go down with 250mm, do those other 2 get close to hit before they first 2 are dead, those kinda stuff.
baytripper
Profile Joined May 2010
United States170 Posts
June 06 2010 09:40 GMT
#18
On June 06 2010 18:22 ccou wrote:
The outrage should be because ultras, one of the pinnacles of zerg tech cannot defeat marauders, one of the earliest units that terrans can get cost effectively.


this isn't necessarily a problem, there are lots of tier 1 > lategame army situations in strategy games that help keep things dynamic

for example, in brood war PvT, the zealot is one of the best ways protoss has to break lategame tank lines, whereas trying to do so with naked reavers would be suicide. if protoss just built nothing but reavers once they got to that tech level, the game would stagnate. instead, reavers are most useful when you get them quickly in small numbers, and then later you transition into producing more tier one units as the terran becomes more able to adequately defend them. obviously this is an oversimplification of the matchup, but it just shows that the relationship of tier one beating something very strong isn't necessarily bad for the game.

relating this back to the question at hand, because hydras and mutas do so well against marauders, the terran produces less marauders once the zerg hits lair tech, so a fast tech switch to ultras could theoretically hit the terran when their composition isn't set up to deal with them

unfortunately there are other factors in the matchup that mean the ultra doesn't actually work out that way, but you can't say it's the marauders' fault and you should be upset about them beating ultras.
baytripper
Profile Joined May 2010
United States170 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-06 09:43:22
June 06 2010 09:42 GMT
#19
On June 06 2010 18:27 MockHamill wrote:
12 Siege Tanks in Siege Mode 1800 Min 1500 Gas 36 pop) vs
6 Ultras (1800 Min 1200 Gas 36 Pop)
= 2 Ultras left

Same result with and without focus fire.


are you actually doing this in game? with vikings spotting for the tanks, tanks upgraded to +3, and the ultras starting outside tank range?

because i find that very suspicious
QuixoticO
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands810 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-06 09:45:10
June 06 2010 09:44 GMT
#20
This discussion is useless we all know the Ultralisk beats most units if not all ground units 1 on 1 heck we could say the same about the Mothership but that doesn't mean it's cost efficient to use the Mothership every game.

The fact that microed marauders with stim, a t1 unit rapes the ultralisk a new one should say enough about it's efficiency in a one unit vs equal cost unit(s) battle. Like other people said this is not a fair way to see if something is efficient because of the tech cost and other various influences like micro.
"Suum Cuique" - Cicero
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