EPTStim vs Charge - Page 3
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
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lolastic
23 Posts
no. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On June 05 2010 01:38 lolastic wrote: so u want to buff protoss? no. Or Nerf Terran... follow the discussion much? Also, please come up with Why you don't want protoss to be buffed. Not just "No" | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
First of all, I see a lot of complaining that a T1 unit isn't as good a a higher Tier unit. That simply makes little sense, if the T1 unit was superior why ever advance up the tier? Yes, Zealots are a T1 unit, their upgrade makes them significantly better against units they were designed to manhandle (marines, zerglings, etc) while becoming marginally more effective against other units due to the passive increase in movespeed (25% IIRC). However, why should a T1 unit be able to manhandle the T1.5 marauder? Especially after the marauder has been upgraded? Generally speaking you have to move up a tier to beat a unit not down a tier. And no, you can't compare the ability of a T2 unit to the ability of a T1 unit (EMP vs Charge) and expect them to be equal. Please be reasonable. But before I get bombarded with things like "So why should the protoss always have to respond to the terran's tech by teching past them" understand that we have to tech past you first (i.e. get T2 units to deal with your T1 and T1.5 units). Also, I am in no way shape or form saying that all units on the same tier are equal as that would be equally pointless. With all that being said my brother gets Charge in almost every game he plays in almost every matchup and wins the majority of his games at the high plat/low diamond level so I would have to disagree that the tech is overpowered, as the building does so much more then unlock these upgrades. It also opens the way to templar tech, and unlocks your ability for +2 upgrades so the cost of the building is very justified. | ||
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
Zealots are sent like cannon fodder when they are actually the highest dps unit in the protoss army at that stage in the game. Stalkers auto target medvacs over anything else unless microed correctly. Marauders are usually put in front denying the zealots those juicy low armor/low hp marines Marines are range 5 and won't usually target anything but the zealots basically giving the terran auto focus fire micro This leads to.... All the zealots die before they get to do any real damage Some medvacs are dead All stalkers die to remaining mm -------------------- I've been experimenting with this on the unit tester and most of the time the best results for me are obtained by sending my stalkers first and taking the first volley of hits making use of their high hp while my army still has damage dealing capabilities. Zealots walk in next and can pick off the low hp units at the front. Stalkers get moved forward to make sure none are stuck in the back of the line without firing. They have a pretty big model for a tier 1 unit. The most important thing during the battle seems to be focusing units down with your stalkers. If you let em auto fire they'll target medvacs and marines that will be easily healed and continue to do damage while your army dies. With that being said I still think in large numbers there's no contest on how's the winner of this fight but I've gone from getting completely decimated to winning some fights and if I do loose the battle he doesn't have enough to pick off every reinforcement I build. Once you have charge its always a good idea to think of your zealots as zerglings and keep them in a slightly remote location to flank with them. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
On June 05 2010 00:37 Daedie wrote: - Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not. Have you ever tried trying to fight a good kiting Terran with unupgraded Zealots? It's a joke. Zealots REQUIRE charge to be useful against Terran, yet it costs more than Stim + Concussive shells COMBINED. And once Terran gets Stim + Concussive he can still kite your Zealots somewhat effectively during the 10s Charge cooldown. | ||
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Sputty
Canada161 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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GsOne
Poland164 Posts
That being said it probably might end up being rebalanced to 150/150, should not be gamebreaking. | ||
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dogmeatstew
Canada574 Posts
As far as the Marauder vs Zealot argument going down, maruaders do in fact cost gas on top of the 100min base cost of both units for about the same build time. That combined with the extra cost and build time of a tech lab justifies marauders being good against zealots -- even if this is only true with intensive micro. Also warpgates. ya those. On a relatively minor side note -- the cost of getting a tech lab is more than just the resource and time cost as it also stops unit production for that time. Not a *huge* deal but it makes a difference early game and as stated before, you end up getting alot of them. On a less rage-terran note, from the P I've played I do agree that charge is expensive and I wouldn't have a problem with it being lowered to 150/150 as I don't think it would change that much. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On June 05 2010 01:48 STS17 wrote: I see a lot of things wrong with the way this entire argument is being laid out. First of all, I see a lot of complaining that a T1 unit isn't as good a a higher Tier unit. That simply makes little sense, if the T1 unit was superior why ever advance up the tier? Yes, Zealots are a T1 unit, their upgrade makes them significantly better against units they were designed to manhandle (marines, zerglings, etc) while becoming marginally more effective against other units due to the passive increase in movespeed (25% IIRC). However, why should a T1 unit be able to manhandle the T1.5 marauder? Especially after the marauder has been upgraded? Generally speaking you have to move up a tier to beat a unit not down a tier. And no, you can't compare the ability of a T2 unit to the ability of a T1 unit (EMP vs Charge) and expect them to be equal. Please be reasonable. 1st) Barracks units and Gateway units are tier 1. There's no arguement around that. Just like zerglings banelings and roaches are all tier 1. You don't need a Lair. 2nd) Even if Marauder was a tier 1.5 unit, why does it completely destroy everything that Gateway units have to offer once you reach more than 10ish Marauders? In that fight with equal resources, there is always a clear winner. There exists excellent forcefield play and micro, but more often than not, the winner is clear. You get upgrades to enhance your units on the way to getting 10+ Marauders, Protoss don't. 3rd) I was not comparing Protss EMP to charge. There, however, does exist the relationship that, Protoss zealots are tanks and EMP negates half their life. So how about the Immortal? Their harden shield is completely negated with EMP and they are no longer tanks. Charge does what to a bio-ball? It gets the zealots up close and do damage. Damage that they would have done if they could reach your units to attack anyways. What does EMP do? It kills half your health effectively. An EMP to an Immortal is effectively 60-80% of it's health, simply b/c they aren't that beefy without their shields. That is why I say nerf EMP/stim/concussive.. or SOMETHING... OR buff charge.... make it more viable.. easier... so I can get my 2nd expansion up without auto-losing to something like 9-rax fast expo where you have both troop levels an economic advantage in the early-mid game. The advantage is so large that Protoss will be behind in some shape or form no matter what happens. | ||
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hejakev
Sweden518 Posts
However, dts seem a bit better in SC2 than SC1, so I don't feel I'm allowed to complain. I've won a lot of games thanks to a solid DT rush. I think the idea is that if you get a DT too soon, it's quite difficult for other players to have a detector in time | ||
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Spidermonkey
United States251 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On June 05 2010 02:00 hejakev wrote: As a huge hayley williams fan, I'm going to agree that the dark shrine seems quite pointless. However, dts seem a bit better in SC2 than SC1, so I don't feel I'm allowed to complain. I've won a lot of games thanks to a solid DT rush. I think the idea is that if you get a DT too soon, it's quite difficult for other players to have a detector in time Hahaha, I have to laugh at your first sentence <3. Anyways, they could make the build time to get DTs just as long if they moved both Templars to one building... I think that as long as teching straight to DT is just as fast or slower than the time it takes for zerg to get Lair, there should be no problem. Terran's have Scans.. and even though each scan is a 0% investment loan from their mineral patch, its pretty game breaking when you've invested so much resources into a cloaked unit and they no longer have to get MULEs to remain economically ahead. By the virtue that we went dark templar, they are already economically ahead because of the resource sink. Not to mention they are now uselses since T is saving scans on 2x OC. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On June 05 2010 01:59 dogmeatstew wrote: I see alot of people making the statement "EMP is free". I'd just like to point out that within the structure of the arguments presented in this thread EMP inherits the cost of a ghost acadamy (150/50/40?) and the cost of actually getting a ghost (150/150/40) which while fast is still alot of gas and is basically along the same lines as teching to TC or whatever... I don't play alot of toss. As far as the Marauder vs Zealot argument going down, maruaders do in fact cost gas on top of the 100min base cost of both units for about the same build time. That combined with the extra cost and build time of a tech lab justifies marauders being good against zealots -- even if this is only true with intensive micro. Also warpgates. ya those. On a relatively minor side note -- the cost of getting a tech lab is more than just the resource and time cost as it also stops unit production for that time. Not a *huge* deal but it makes a difference early game and as stated before, you end up getting alot of them. On a less rage-terran note, from the P I've played I do agree that charge is expensive and I wouldn't have a problem with it being lowered to 150/150 as I don't think it would change that much. True.. you spent money to get to EMP. However, what about the time it takes to get to an Immortal? Ghost negates the effectiveness of the Immortal and then some... and its cheaper... That is why I'm talking about EMP being free... | ||
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tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
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dogmeatstew
Canada574 Posts
On June 05 2010 02:09 Paramore wrote: True.. you spent money to get to EMP. However, what about the time it takes to get to an Immortal? Ghost negates the effectiveness of the Immortal and then some... and its cheaper... That is why I'm talking about EMP being free... I was more trying to state the EMP costs with regards to marauders and zealots. I personally think immo's should probably have like 125 sheilds or something but that might wreck other things... EMP just seems fine outside of the immo issue. | ||
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
On June 05 2010 01:33 mutantmagnet wrote: We'll just have to disagree here. Warp zealots and Blinking Stalkers are totally different units from the units without the upgrade and Citadel of Adun unlocked the same potential for zealots. The progression path is logical. [Cyber Core] {unlock Sentry, Stalker, Warp Gate Research} Then Choose either: 1) [Robotics]{unlock Prism, Observer, Immortal} which expands into [Robo Bay]{unlock colossus, thermal lance, gravitic drive} 2) [Stargate]{unlock Pheonix, VOid ray} which expands into [Fleet Beacon] {unlocking Carrier, catapault speed} 3) [Council]{unlock Charge, Blink} which expands into [Dark Shrine] & [Templar Archives] Incorrect, any decent player is still forced to get option 3 in every game whether they choose to go Robo or Stargate due to Council a prerequisite for ground upgrades. This annoys me in every single game I play, I end up making these expensive buildings that derail and delay other aspects of my game. edit: woops forgot archives isn't actually needed, heh. | ||
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