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Many comparisons cannot really be related interracial since each race's macro mechanics are balanced differently to achieve ultimate balance. However, there are some cost/tech function that kind of bothers me.
Charge and Blink are 200/200/140 ///150/150/110 respectively and requires Twilight Council (TC) and a noticeable time to upgrade. These upgrades are for tier 1 unit but are placed in, for all intents and purposes, tier 2 (cybernetics core --> twilight).
Compare this to:
Stim/Concussive/Shield 100/100/140 /// 50/50/60 /// 100/100/110, each of which are researchable on the same tech lab that you need to build marauders, and face it, nobody gets stim just for their marines. So basically the techlab has two functions.
What does the TC serve? It opens your tech to Templar Archives and Dark Templar Shrine. However, aside from these two upgrades, this mechanic is an often fatal redundancy to Protoss. It just makes no mechanical sense as to why this building exists.
This building only exists because it was in Starcraft 1. The only reason it was in Starcraft 1 was to find a place to buffer both types of Templars so that they wouldn't come out so fast. Isn't there a more innovative way to put leg-speed/charge? Also, isn't that twilight council buffer enough punishment for us to build Templars? Need there be two seperate buildlings to build that one Unit? What are Protoss? Zerg? Come on... here (Okay those last two sentences get out of hand). Anyways...
I find many times, Terran will push out with his bio-ball before I have a chance to get a robotics facility for collosus or templar archive for storm. Let alone the time it takes to research these techs to be viable against a 7-rax build. What can Protoss really do vs early-mid game 7-rax. Immortals were fairly useful in early patches, but with the invention of early-expand bunker with 4-gas Terran's pumping out ghosts with their Marauders, Immortals, while good damage dealers, simply do not hold up as the tanking unit they were suppose to be.
It would be more balanced and make more sense if charge and blink were researched on the cybernetics core. Just like the Terran has to build techlab to build Marauders and Reapers, Protoss has to build a Cybernetics Core to build Sentries and Stalkers.
With the advent of mech-builds in TvP, people are underestimating how strong bio is vs Protoss early-mid game, before Collosus range and storm upgrades.
Essentially speaking, it costs 200/200 + 150/100 for a total of 350/300 just to upgrade Zealot legs. This takes 190 game seconds, because thankfully the TC builds really fast.
Compare this to:
50/50/60 for Concussive shells to make Marauders completely negate zealots with proper micro/kiting abilities. Let's not forget that, even though you need to build a tech-lab, we have to build a cybernetics core, which costs more.
When you go 7-rax early game vs a Protoss, what would the proper response really be? If you tech too fast you get rushed at 4-rax stage and its game-over. I don't care how many times you forcefield your ramp because by the time you produce a Collosus (which by the way also costs gas, so mass forcefield cuts into your gas, he will be miles ahead of you economically with his fast expo.
Poll: What should be done to fix this?There is nothing to be fixed (315) 54% Reduce cost and upgrade time for Zealot Legs (150/150/80)? (201) 35% Reduce cost and upgrade time and move to Cybernetics Core (36) 6% Move to Cybernetics Core (23) 4% Reduce upgrade time and move to Cybernetics Core (7) 1% 582 total votes Your vote: What should be done to fix this? (Vote): Reduce cost and upgrade time for Zealot Legs (150/150/80)?
(Vote): Reduce cost and upgrade time and move to Cybernetics Core
(Vote): Move to Cybernetics Core
(Vote): Reduce upgrade time and move to Cybernetics Core
(Vote): There is nothing to be fixed
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In hind-site I probably should have came up with a better title... haha...
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Nothing to be fixed imo. charge is a very powerful ability that automaticly activates without any down sides, while stim is an ability you have to activate yourself and has a 10 HP loss.
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You say concussive shells "negates" zelots, but the reality is Zelots are the most necessary component of early game PvT. If you have just a pair of stalkers if they come to harass, you are dead to 2 mauraders, but if you have a zelot and a stalker you actually have a fighting change since it takes something like 16 maurader shots to beat a zelot, and you can micro the stalker around to poke and damage the mauraders while they are forced to deal with the much higher damage dealing Zelot. The zelot is a tank in those early game situations, and concussive shells simply makes it possible for terran to even fight or pressure the P opponent.
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Why do you think that Snowfield? Think about it... Protoss tier 1 units take a long time to become viable. By the time he can get his charge done, you can have +1 upgrades with stim and concussive for the same cost and same time.
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What a crude comparison. Let's throw some other facts into the equation:
- T needs a tech lab or core reactor (eventually) on every barracks.
- Stim, by itself, comes with a major drawback. to alleviate it, T is required to invest heavily in medivac tech.
- Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not.
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They are two different races, if charge comes out any earlier PvZ would be just a 5gate a-move fest against mass spinecrawlers.
It's like saying asking for ETL to work like siege mode. There is nothing to be fixed.
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United States12235 Posts
On June 05 2010 00:34 Snowfield wrote:
Nothing to be fixed imo. charge is a very powerful ability that automaticly activates without any down sides, while stim is an ability you have to activate yourself and has a 10 HP loss.
20 HP for Marauders :O
And you can't just directly compare upgrades like that, especially passive versus active ones and especially across races. Terran would be brutally powerful if they had a permanent move speed increase like Charge grants, and Protoss would be extremely strong if Stalkers had Concussive Shells. The two races are too different from one another to directly compare unit vs unit or upgrade vs upgrade.
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On June 05 2010 00:35 Joseki wrote:
You say concussive shells "negates" zelots, but the reality is Zelots are the most necessary component of early game PvT. If you have just a pair of stalkers if they come to harass, you are dead to 2 mauraders, but if you have a zelot and a stalker you actually have a fighting change since it takes something like 16 maurader shots to beat a zelot, and you can micro the stalker around to poke and damage the mauraders while they are forced to deal with the much higher damage dealing Zelot. The zelot is a tank in those early game situations, and concussive shells simply makes it possible for terran to even fight or pressure the P opponent.
I'm not saying that zealots aren't useful tanks. They are and early game I'll admit that they do serve that purpose that you just explained. However, like I said, what if the Terran just sits in his base until he has say, 20 maurauder, with ghosts.. and lots of marines? Then goes to your base? You either have alot of tier 1 stuff, where a noticeable amount will die half way to the battle-line (no charge) or a few high-tech units that would die to large amounts of "stuff" that Terran has.
It's not a complete imbalance, but I think there is a noticeable advantage here.
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id say make it 200/200 myself..i cant even get charge alot of times until semi late because of the cost of it, especially when blink makes an otherwise useless unit capable of some sick ahrass(with good micro) and is alot cheaper..
i think lowering it to 150/150 or even 100/100 would be reasonable
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On June 05 2010 00:37 Daedie wrote:
What a crude comparison. Let's throw some other facts into the equation:
- T needs a tech lab or core reactor (eventually) on every barracks.
- Stim, by itself, comes with a major drawback. to alleviate it, T is required to invest heavily in medivac tech.
- Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not.
The only noticeable draw-back with stim is in Marines... Marauders have similar health to Zealots, more if they get EMPed, even after stim.
T doesn't need medivac tech for 7-9 rax to work. That's late-game when Protoss has the necessary counter to mass squishy Units. However, early game, it doesn't really cut it.
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Maybe putting it in Core would be overkill, but at least the upgrade time and cost. It's a zealot upgrade, not some upgrade that makes Protoss archon shoot a huge beam instantly doing 300 damage. Oh sorry, was that for Battlecruisers?
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the templar path in general is so completely gimped compared to robotics its not even funny
they need to do something to balance that out and cheaper charge would certainly be nice
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I think actually, if you made Ghost EMP cost 200/200 and took 140 seconds to research at Academy, then I would say there's no problem.
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THe danger with comparing races like this is that the 3 races are vastly different, and infact are meant to be vastly different, it is easy to point to a specific thing that one race does better than the other and say "thats imbalanced" but the truth is its not, every race has its advantages and disadvantages, if they didnt, we might as well have just one race.
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Don't forget if charge was at the CC it would conflict with warpgate research, an upgrade u don't really wanna delay. the cost is the main problem imo. Protoss upgrades in comparison with terran just seem so damn expensive especially on gas. Charge is the same cost as Colossus range/Psi storm which is ridiculous since I don't think it's nearly as powerful they are. I don't think the speed difference with charge is as noticable as sc1 leg speed either.
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On June 05 2010 00:41 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 00:37 Daedie wrote:
What a crude comparison. Let's throw some other facts into the equation:
- T needs a tech lab or core reactor (eventually) on every barracks.
- Stim, by itself, comes with a major drawback. to alleviate it, T is required to invest heavily in medivac tech.
- Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not. The only noticeable draw-back with stim is in Marines... Marauders have similar health to Zealots, more if they get EMPed, even after stim. T doesn't need medivac tech for 7-9 rax to work. That's late-game when Protoss has the necessary counter to mass squishy Units. However, early game, it doesn't really cut it.
You can turn the argument to your advantage as much as you like. That won't change the fact that Stim tech comes with a drawback while charge or blink do not. Nobody cares if you think it's not a noticable drawback. It's there, and for a direct comparison, medivac tech needs to be factored into the equation or your point becomes invalid. And honestly 20 hp loss is noticable in my book, especially when you have to stim the same units multiple times.
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On June 05 2010 00:48 HuHEN wrote:
THe danger with comparing races like this is that the 3 races are vastly different, and infact are meant to be vastly different, it is easy to point to a specific thing that one race does better than the other and say "thats imbalanced" but the truth is its not, every race has its advantages and disadvantages, if they didnt, we might as well have just one race.
Id agree but i dont see why you need 2 diff buildings to get each of the templar, archives/dark shrine. Hell even in starcraft1 they had no problem getting along..i dont see why it should be different for starcraft 2
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On June 05 2010 00:48 Daedie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 00:41 Paramore wrote:On June 05 2010 00:37 Daedie wrote:
What a crude comparison. Let's throw some other facts into the equation:
- T needs a tech lab or core reactor (eventually) on every barracks.
- Stim, by itself, comes with a major drawback. to alleviate it, T is required to invest heavily in medivac tech.
- Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not. The only noticeable draw-back with stim is in Marines... Marauders have similar health to Zealots, more if they get EMPed, even after stim. T doesn't need medivac tech for 7-9 rax to work. That's late-game when Protoss has the necessary counter to mass squishy Units. However, early game, it doesn't really cut it. You can turn the argument to your advantage as much as you like. That won't change the fact that Stim tech comes with a drawback while charge or blink do not. Nobody cares if you think it's not a noticable drawback. It's there, and for a direct comparison, medivac tech needs to be factored into the equation or your point becomes invalid. And honestly 20 hp loss is noticable in my book, especially when you have to stim the same units multiple times.
You aren't looking at the over-all drawback of Charge. Because of Charge I can't build a templar archives. Beacuse of Charge and how long it takes, I can't attack your bio-ball before I have it. Because of Charge, I can't think about getting anything other than more tier 1 just to make that upgrade a viable option. I think that is too much of a burden, compared to your Stim, that in many situations only require 1 to 2 uses since all my shit is dead.
I mistitled this. It should be Charge vs EMP... Charge costs 200/200, EMP is free. My drawback happens before the battle even starts. My army lost half its life and I don't have charge researched yet and my tanks aren't tanks anymore, just high-damage stalkers that move slower (immortals). Thats why I have a problem against this particular build.
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On June 05 2010 00:48 Daedie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 00:41 Paramore wrote:On June 05 2010 00:37 Daedie wrote:
What a crude comparison. Let's throw some other facts into the equation:
- T needs a tech lab or core reactor (eventually) on every barracks.
- Stim, by itself, comes with a major drawback. to alleviate it, T is required to invest heavily in medivac tech.
- Tech lab upgrades are mandatory for barracks units to be viable, TC upgrades are not. The only noticeable draw-back with stim is in Marines... Marauders have similar health to Zealots, more if they get EMPed, even after stim. T doesn't need medivac tech for 7-9 rax to work. That's late-game when Protoss has the necessary counter to mass squishy Units. However, early game, it doesn't really cut it. You can turn the argument to your advantage as much as you like. That won't change the fact that Stim tech comes with a drawback while charge or blink do not. Nobody cares if you think it's not a noticable drawback. It's there, and for a direct comparison, medivac tech needs to be factored into the equation or your point becomes invalid. And honestly 20 hp loss is noticable in my book, especially when you have to stim the same units multiple times.
I play Terran, and I totally disagree. Stim is a no brainer to get an use, even before Medivac... if you even ever tech to Medivacs. Every Terran player gets Stim and the vast majority get Concusive Shells. Not every Protoss player gets Charge, even though Charge is a good ability.
The cost of charge should be reduced. Charge is a constant ability you don't trigger, it goes off by it's self... much like Concusive Shells. The cost of Charge should be half of what it is.
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EPT
