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cant beleive im making my first post in a whine thread but i honestly have to say what i read in this thread are some of the most stupid counterproductive arguments ive ever seen do you REALLY want to compare race skills and prices in the the sequel to the rts game known for having the most unique races ever?
protoss have 5 dmg/armor upgrades while terran have 6
your production building(gateway vs barracks) dont cost gas
zealots dont cost gas, marauders do
as a protoss you are making your choice of path (enhanced gateway/robo/air) when you go into the advanced tech while terrans have to tech in a straight line down
people are comparing forcefields with emp, hey how about we give siege tanks hardened shield(or remove siege upgrade)?
you cant compare skills between races and call it imbalanced
oh and btw i agree that charge upgrade could cost 150/150 but it should not come earlier than it does right now.
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On June 07 2010 08:07 Hemling wrote:
cant beleive im making my first post in a whine thread but i honestly have to say what i read in this thread are some of the most stupid counterproductive arguments ive ever seen do you REALLY want to compare race skills and prices in the the sequel to the rts game known for having the most unique races ever?
protoss have 5 dmg/armor upgrades while terran have 6
your production building(gateway vs barracks) dont cost gas
zealots dont cost gas, marauders do
as a protoss you are making your choice of path (enhanced gateway/robo/air) when you go into the advanced tech while terrans have to tech in a straight line down
people are comparing forcefields with emp, hey how about we give siege tanks hardened shield(or remove siege upgrade)?
you cant compare skills between races and call it imbalanced
oh and btw i agree that charge upgrade could cost 150/150 but it should not come earlier than it does right now.
Actually the bolded part is not true. The correct statement would be "You CAN compare skills between races, its just really difficult".
If I were to say that the terran now have an ability that instantly destroys the other player's base instantly, without any gas cost, you would say "thats retarded, and overpowered". I would then retort with "Nope, its a different skill for my race".
Bottomline is terran's stim/conc shell upgrades are obnoxiously good and are built on your production building with an EXTREMELY low cost.
Terran is imba, it is true. MM Timing pushes are almost unstoppable for protoss right now, and its just going to get worse as more terran get it down.
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On June 07 2010 08:29 Surrealz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 08:07 Hemling wrote:
cant beleive im making my first post in a whine thread but i honestly have to say what i read in this thread are some of the most stupid counterproductive arguments ive ever seen do you REALLY want to compare race skills and prices in the the sequel to the rts game known for having the most unique races ever?
protoss have 5 dmg/armor upgrades while terran have 6
your production building(gateway vs barracks) dont cost gas
zealots dont cost gas, marauders do
as a protoss you are making your choice of path (enhanced gateway/robo/air) when you go into the advanced tech while terrans have to tech in a straight line down
people are comparing forcefields with emp, hey how about we give siege tanks hardened shield(or remove siege upgrade)?
you cant compare skills between races and call it imbalanced
oh and btw i agree that charge upgrade could cost 150/150 but it should not come earlier than it does right now. Terran is imba, it is true. MM Timing pushes are almost unstoppable for protoss right now, and its just going to get worse as more terran get it down.
why is it always a sub 100 posts guy that states something is clearly super imba and unbeatable?
show me those unstoppable pushes pls do. cause you apparently know something all T players worldwide need to learn!
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I think the biggest concern, in addition to the high cost of Protoss tech and unit cost relative to Terran, is that Protoss is contested in what to do early to mid game and can only have one:
Charge or Blink?
Warp Gate or Hallucination or Air Upgrade?
Immortal or Colossus (Range needed)?
High Templar (Storm needed) or Dark Templar?
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Marauders are really tough early game. Protoss have trouble early-game because the stalker is balanced around the idea that it can blink and attack air. Marauder is balanced around the idea that it can't hit air. Problem is, early game the Stalker has no air to attack and can't blink. The Marauder utilizes it's entire arsenal early game, so what we end up with is a gimped out stalker with less DPS and less mobility (concussive shell snare) that costs more.
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In addition, as stated before, melee units in SC2 are weaker due to the new AI that greatly enhances ranged units... and Terran units are all ranged. Another reason why the Archon and Ultralisk are bad.
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I just want them to unbuff stim and shield and re-nerf concussive shells. no need to change charge upgrade or the TC. changing the charge upgrade/TC will affect PvZ a lot more than you'd imagine, while unbuffing and re-nerfing the bio upgrades won't really hurt TvZ as Terran was already pretty strong against Zerg early game and it'd also take some pressure off PvT early game.
Blizzard was fucking high when they buffed stim and shield. That made absolutely no sense. The un-nerfing of concussive shells was retarded and they might as well just not have made it a researchable ability.
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What I don't understand about Blizzard is when they said Protoss is destroying Terran early game about a month ago. In many high level plays back then Marauder rushes were absolutely destroying Protoss early game. The only Protoss response was to turtle and hit a good forcefield, so the Zealots can attack without getting kited much. In another interview, Dustin Browder said some Protoss players were using mass Carriers and beating Terran often with it... but I have yet to see any Protoss using mass carriers, let alone winning with them. I've seen a few attempt but Carriers were easily stopped by a few Vikings. I really don't know how the balance team balances, but one thing for sure is that they don't look at top level play which is kind of disappointing.
But this game is too early to call anything, and this is a great time to try out new things.
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After watching one of the Day9 dailies where he uses QXC's build-order testing map, I've recently been getting the Charge upgrade super early while teching to DTs vs Terran.
TC builds super fast, and if you plan your gas accordingly, it really doesn't bust your balls that badly. When you are planning for Charge early in the game, dumping extra minerals into Zealots while being gas-starved makes sense. I've gone into battles thinking I would lose, but Chargelots are amazingly underrated.
You should be able to tell if he's going Banshees by his gas/add-ons/early unit composition and decide if you need that fast Robotics or not.
My only real problem with the Charge upgrade is how fricken long it takes. It feels like I have to Chrono Boost my TC 5 or 6 times to get it done.
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I would rather they put Concussive Shells back to it's longer research time. The time it takes between your scout getting killed and a stalker showing up at their base is almost the same as the time it will take to get cshells up, which has led TvP back to a semi-stagnant early game for Protoss where T has map and build order control. I like how charge's long upgrade time and cost feels like a strategic choice with obvious pros and cons (though I would also like it if chargelots would have higher base movement than workers), whereas I don't like how all of T's tech lab upgrades feel like cheap necessities instead of decisions that have some sort of drawback.
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Charge either needs to be cheaper, or Stim needs to go back to being 150/150 and Concussive Shells to 100/100. As it stands, early 2 or 3 Barracks pressure more or less forces me to sit at the top of my ramp with Sentries just so I can buy time for Colossi to come out, and by then I'm dealing with Vikings or Tanks, which make it difficult to apply pressure back.
Its not that match up is broken, just extremely taxing on patience, and mostly because of early Bio pressure or having to play a guessing game of "Mech, Drops, or Ghosts in MM." And T may argue we have Obs, but any decent Terran will notice the distortion and either scan it or place a few critical Missle Turrets up. The only PvT game I've had where I was coming out ahead in Unit losses was after I started catching drops and Feedbacking them.
If I could get Charge just a bit quicker (the 50 gas cheaper quicker even) it would make pushing out from my ramp a bit safer, because as it stands, a single control group of MM can wait till the Zealots get close, Stim and Kite and be out of range of the Stalkers and faster. And sure, I could get several Sentries, but those aren't cheap and delay tech quite a bit. And Stim is much more useful in general, as it can be used to escape a bad situation, run back to the Tank line, or do some quick sniping and running. Charge is only useful offensively, and only if I micro the Zealots so they don't get Charge locked behind each other and just run around doing nothing.
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