EPTProtoss spell that reveal cloak? - Page 3
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On June 05 2010 00:41 Mensab wrote: Except minerals sitting in that mineral patch are basically worthless until you can use them to actually build things. The slower your harvesting rate the slower your tech, your production, etc. Against protoss with the ability to chronoboost and spit out probes at a high rate, this is a very very bad thing. If you don't know why this is bad, then I'm afraid I can't help you. And others have pointed out quite helpfully on why all of the terran methods of detection have very high costs to them. Observers are hard/expensive to get? Using EMP to detect means you've spent 300/200 for detection, on a unit that'll get 2 shot by a DT, that requires energy in order to use EMP to boot. The Raven is pretty solid for detection (other than being made out of paper), but requires even more teching. Missile turrets are static, fragile, can't defend against ground, and have to be built by a unit that gets 1 shot by DTs (panic building MTs is an expensive venture in futility). And I've already explained the cost of scans, not to mention its not like DTs can't just run away and come back again. You mean you need to scout and be aware of your army? Different races play differently? Say it ain't so!?!! You're not understanding me correctly, I believe (and playing the "you're a newb" card, what a surprise...). At the risk of straying so far from the OP's point that the original message is lost, I'll elaborate. Because apparently I have to explain everything three times before people stop reading it the wrong way. When did I ever say that a Terran should build a ghost solely for the purpose of detection? I'm serious, quote it. What I said was that, whatever tech path Terran chooses, they'll have detectors. Air: Raven. Infantry: Ghost. ANY tech path at all: Scan. Compare that to Protoss, who only get observers if they go with robo and they'll have a way of damaging cloaked units (not revealing them, so not quite as good) by means of Storm if they happen to have that researched. Sure, mid-late game you're going to have that robo as well, even if you went with Stargates or Templar tech, but in the early-to-mid game, you won't. That's a hefty investment, and it's one of the reasons Protoss nearly always go for and NEED a robo facility to even make it to the mid-late game. There's no doubt that different races play differently, but the fact of the matter is that Protoss feels very linear to me, and Templar tech is quite hard to use effectively. I'm not the only one with this opinion, so you can stop it with the newb argument right there. - I'm just going to ignore the first and last part of your post since they are idiotic, if that's okay with you. If you've decided I'm a half wit, good for you, but I'm not going to respond to stuff like that. | ||
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Diokhan
Finland33 Posts
On June 04 2010 16:42 Talic_Zealot wrote: The observer is arguably the cheapest and the best detector in the game and the protoss have a spell that cloaks units(although rarely seen), so I think it is an acceptable design decision for then not to have a revealing spell. ^this^ Protoss also has all the perma cloaked units while ghosts and banshees require energy to do it and zerg units can't attack (and some can't even more) while being burrowed. I think observer + perma cloaked units > scan & cloak revealing FG and EMP. easily. How often zerg actually uses FG to decloak anyway? I dare to say that if zerg can afford using FG for decloaking he/she can just as easily afford couple extra overseers. | ||
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Mensab
United States27 Posts
On June 05 2010 01:19 DarQraven wrote: You're not understanding me correctly, I believe (and playing the "you're a newb" card, what a surprise...). At the risk of straying so far from the OP's point that the original message is lost, I'll elaborate. Because apparently I have to explain everything three times before people stop reading it the wrong way. When did I ever say that a Terran should build a ghost solely for the purpose of detection? I'm serious, quote it. What I said was that, whatever tech path Terran chooses, they'll have detectors. Air: Raven. Infantry: Ghost. ANY tech path at all: Scan. Compare that to Protoss, who only get observers if they go with robo and they'll have a way of damaging cloaked units (not revealing them, so not quite as good) by means of Storm if they happen to have that researched. Sure, mid-late game you're going to have that robo as well, even if you went with Stargates or Templar tech, but in the early-to-mid game, you won't. That's a hefty investment, and it's one of the reasons Protoss nearly always go for and NEED a robo facility to even make it to the mid-late game. There's no doubt that different races play differently, but the fact of the matter is that Protoss feels very linear to me, and Templar tech is quite hard to use effectively. I'm not the only one with this opinion, so you can stop it with the newb argument right there. - I'm just going to ignore the first and last part of your post since they are idiotic, if that's okay with you. If you've decided I'm a half wit, good for you, but I'm not going to respond to stuff like that. First I'll have to apologize, all of the "OMG (insert race I play) is da WORSTEST, (insert other race(s) here) are OP IMBA TOO STRONG BBQ and people who play them do questionable things with their dog" posts is starting to get to me and taking it out on your considerably more reasonable post is bad manners and bad form on my part. Your concern in particular, seems to be towards emergency detection and the availability of detection throughout tech trees, I would argue the former is more or less only possible for Terran -and only if the player has enough energy which he most likely won't, (show me a terran player who just banks energy early game for scans who somehow is even in the same ballpark in terms of macro with his opponent and I'll concede this point). Emergency Overseers is possible, but take time, both to morph and travel, not to mention resources and the fact that overseers aren't any harder to kill compared to overlords and the fact that the cocoon can be sniped. Not to mention you need lair tech. So that leaves us with turrets, which Protoss arguably gets the upper hand with turrets that can both hit air and ground, and actual dedicated detectors. You argue that since toss, regardless of w/e tech the player is trying to advanced towards must get robo bay before you have detection, that the toss is forced to make an heavy investment just for detection (albeit reliable detection), but I could also argue that in order for other races to have reliable detection they need to make a similar investment, with Terrans requiring both factory and starport with tech lab add on, and Zerg needing their lair. So then that brings us back to emergency detection. Why templar storm? (unless that wasn't your idea) And if not that, then what else? I don't see a very reasonable place for this, other than adding an additional (most likely gateway) unit. And that, coupled with how potent gateway units can be, how quickly they can be produced and deployed, would be ridiculous. | ||
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