EPTProtoss spell that reveal cloak? - Page 2
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Grend
1600 Posts
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Smu
Serbia164 Posts
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shawabawa
United Kingdom417 Posts
On June 04 2010 19:04 Smu wrote: Dude, just enjoy your invisible awesome observer. Look at how shoddy Zerg detection got in SC2, and terran has to waste his macro energy for scans now. Everyone has it harder except for protoss, and you want even storm to reveal invisible units ? Wtf. Excuse me? You can morph an overseer at any one of your overlords with NO tech (except lair, but that comes every game). Protoss has no detection without going robo. Terran's is the worst though, having to get starport with techlab for detection is nasty. Clearly zerg has the easiest detection | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
On June 04 2010 19:07 shawabawa wrote: Excuse me? You can morph an overseer at any one of your overlords with NO tech (except lair, but that comes every game). Protoss has no detection without going robo. Terran's is the worst though, having to get starport with techlab for detection is nasty. Clearly zerg has the easiest detection I personally think the detection for all races are equally hard-to-get | ||
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Kerotan
England2109 Posts
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On June 04 2010 16:37 DarkwindHK wrote: As far as I remember, only EMP (terran) and fungus (Zerg) can remove cloak for a limited amount of time. It would be great if psi storm or some other spell of protoss can reveal cloak, which let you use micro to compensate for a late robo. So sort of ability to detect cloak is really needed if we want a balanced tech tree for protoss. (Robo > stargate and templar right now) Terran, on the other hand, already have scan. Isn't the EMP reveal feature a bit overkill? Does Terran really need so many detection options? They already they maphack installed in command center and sensor tower. Zerg also has a lot of overlord that can be morph into overseer anytime it is needed. They also have fungus. I feel Zerg detection is fine. Wait, what ? Terran having too many or too good detection ? Protoss already have the best detection in here, solely because of the fact it's permanently cloaked itself and VERY cheap. Terran may have turrets, scan, and raven, but those detection are far more expensive and less effective/reliable. When you get DTs on your face for example, what can you do ? Land turrets getting 3shot ? Scan they can run away from ? There is only raven as really reliable detection, and it's still way inferior to observers in this matter as it's like 4x more expensive and visible. If EMP didn't reveal some of the cloaked units, it would be a nightmare. Oh, and Scan is not even reliable, it's not like you run with OCs having energy all the time until late game. Zergs detection is about the same as Terran, with spore crawlers, overseer and infestors, but still a bit easier to get I believe. As for Protoss they really shouldn't complain about detection, observers are just excellent and unique for this matter, for both scouting and detecting. Not to mention canons, available extremely early. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On June 04 2010 18:48 Grend wrote: If you could get detection no matter what tech you choose as protoss, then there would be zero viability of any cloaked attacks. If your opponent goes for some kind of cloaked tech you have to react to it by either getting a robo or cannons. That seems quite sufficent. Oh you mean like Terran, who gets OC anyway every single match and DT rushing them still works just fine? | ||
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melfice
Austria12 Posts
On June 04 2010 18:33 Darby.mcg wrote: I haven't actually checked this but do hallucinated obs detect(or can you hallucinate them)? if so I would think it a necessity if you wanted to go anything other than gate/robo No, they can't. That would be too strong. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
Oh you mean like Terran, who gets OC anyway every single match and DT rushing them still works just fine? Because Orbital Command Scans cost mana that could be used for other things? It would be excessive. Any protoss will get around to getting a robo sooner or later, and I for one like the mechanic with how you can punish all in gate play, or star gate play with quick dt`s. It just does not seem neccessary at all. | ||
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Gapato
France43 Posts
 Ok that's half serious... | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On June 04 2010 20:55 Grend wrote: Because Orbital Command Scans cost mana that could be used for other things? And Psi storm or whatever ability the OP is suggesting doesn't? Sure, scan 'costs money' (it doesn't, it just delays the harvesting of that money), but at 240 minerals per scan, that's totally worth it. If you save even 5 SCV's with it, you've more than broken even, and that's not even counting the opponent's loss of units. The fundamental 'problem' here is that product Protoss' detection costs production time of a building that would otherwise be building units, whereas OC scan doesn't slow the production of your units and Overseer morph doesn't really affect your army either. Sure I can build 3 observers (one scouting, two covering base and expansion) just in case, but that's 150/300 and 120 seconds that I can't use my Robo for making Immortals, for instance. Cannons solve this problem but they're more expensive and static. I'm not too sure this desperately needs changing, but your initial claim just has no backing. The other two races have easier/faster detection and cloaked attacks still work. | ||
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LolnoobInsanity
United States183 Posts
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Kajean
United States20 Posts
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Grend
1600 Posts
scan 'costs money' (it doesn't, it just delays the harvesting of that money) This is migraine inducing. The races are not mirrors. They work differently. The way Protoss detection works (Observer), is that it is extremely effective at countering enemy cloak harass, as it is cloaked (Hard to get rid of) and quite fast. OC scans are costly and can be avoided, and if you do avoid them. You`re in good shape, as the energy then has to recharge. This is just an example to show the difference between the races and detection. Zerg has always had easily available detection, and I think one of the reasons why is the fact that they usually have more bases than the other races. As Observers are more of a hard counter to any kind of quick cloak attack than the detection the other races have, I think it seems fair, that Protoss have less other ways of detection so as to add to the rather limited use of cloak atm. I like mechanics that do not allow you to do whatever you feel like without scouting, and yet being able to counter your opponents move. Feel free to disagree. What your point about building time has to do with anything I have written I do not know. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
What is so complicated about that? If I spend 50/100 on an observer, that is 50/100 that I cannot possibly use on other units. The mineral from the patch is gone. Not using mules doesn't cost anything, the minerals are still there; it'll just take you longer to get them. When you look at a situation where you are contained and cannot expand, this is a very clear difference. Also, yes. I am aware that the races are different. Other people than you posted that in this thread multiple times and I never said otherwise. Instead, I am discussing these differences. Considering that stuff like Burrow, Banshees, Ghosts, etc are vastly more accessible than DT's or mothership, I find it funny that the race without these easy cloak harass options also doesn't have any on-the-spot detection. What your point about building time has to do with anything I have written I do not know. I'm talking about a scenario where you are caught guard down by a few cloaked units in your base. So was the OP, I assume. In the case that you don't have detection, Zerg can react within 17 seconds (Overseer), while Terran can react instantly (Scan). Protoss can only react after 27 seconds (Obs, chronoboosted) which is an eternity when there's 5+ banshees eating away at your probes/base. THAT is how the build times relate to your argument. These are only the counters to cloak that you're basically always going to have and that aren't static defense. Protoss can use Storm, Terran can use EMP, Zerg can cast Fungal, yes. But that assumes you've got that tech at your disposal. Same for cannons, turrets and spores. Like I said, it's not a huge deal. I can manage to get by just fine, but it has created a situation for Protoss where you'll have to be very aware of where your observers are and how many you have, lest you get overrun by relatively few units. | ||
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Sniggle
United States21 Posts
As for cannons, if your opponent uses cloak defensively good luck getting that pylon and cannon up to reveal them in their base. | ||
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Mensab
United States27 Posts
On June 04 2010 23:59 DarQraven wrote: What is so complicated about that? If I spend 50/100 on an observer, that is 50/100 that I cannot possibly use on other units. The mineral from the patch is gone. Not using mules doesn't cost anything, the minerals are still there; it'll just take you longer to get them. When you look at a situation where you are contained and cannot expand, this is a very clear difference. Also, yes. I am aware that the races are different. Other people than you posted that in this thread multiple times and I never said otherwise. Instead, I am discussing these differences. Considering that stuff like Burrow, Banshees, Ghosts, etc are vastly more accessible than DT's or mothership, I find it funny that the race without these easy cloak harass options also doesn't have any on-the-spot detection. Except minerals sitting in that mineral patch are basically worthless until you can use them to actually build things. The slower your harvesting rate the slower your tech, your production, etc. Against protoss with the ability to chronoboost and spit out probes at a high rate, this is a very very bad thing. If you don't know why this is bad, then I'm afraid I can't help you. And others have pointed out quite helpfully on why all of the terran methods of detection have very high costs to them. Observers are hard/expensive to get? Using EMP to detect means you've spent 300/200 for detection, on a unit that'll get 2 shot by a DT, that requires energy in order to use EMP to boot. The Raven is pretty solid for detection (other than being made out of paper), but requires even more teching. Missile turrets are static, fragile, can't defend against ground, and have to be built by a unit that gets 1 shot by DTs (panic building MTs is an expensive venture in futility). And I've already explained the cost of scans, not to mention its not like DTs can't just run away and come back again. I'm talking about a scenario where you are caught guard down by a few cloaked units in your base. So was the OP, I assume. In the case that you don't have detection, Zerg can react within 17 seconds (Overseer), while Terran can react instantly (Scan). Protoss can only react after 27 seconds (Obs, chronoboosted) which is an eternity when there's 5+ banshees eating away at your probes/base. THAT is how the build times relate to your argument. These are only the counters to cloak that you're basically always going to have and that aren't static defense. Protoss can use Storm, Terran can use EMP, Zerg can cast Fungal, yes. But that assumes you've got that tech at your disposal. Same for cannons, turrets and spores. Like I said, it's not a huge deal. I can manage to get by just fine, but it has created a situation for Protoss where you'll have to be very aware of where your observers are and how many you have, lest you get overrun by relatively few units. You mean you need to scout and be aware of your army? Different races play differently? Say it ain't so!?!! | ||
Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
On June 05 2010 00:12 Sniggle wrote: People keep saying an obs is quick to get with a boost so it is fine, I think people are forgetting that there are other options for protoss besides going straight for a robo. If you add in the robo build time the time spent waiting for detection is quite longer. I don't think the problem of detection occurs when someone already has a robo, almost always the first or second unit out is an obs. The detection problems occur when you don't have a robo at all. As for cannons, if your opponent uses cloak defensively good luck getting that pylon and cannon up to reveal them in their base. That is the risk you take when you skip the robo and proceed down another tech path. If you are skipping the robo then you are going to want to scout aggressively to see what they are up. If you don't know what they are doing then it's probably best you should get a robo and obs to find out instead of playing in the dark. When people mentioned cannons they meant in their own base like the mineral line, and you would either fall back until you get detection or keep fighting doing as much damage as you can at the cost of your units. Part of being Protoss user is knowing how to use your observers and being active with them. As with all three races it's better to know and be prepared. I think Protoss detection is fine as it is. | ||
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
The point is that, without specifically teching/planning for detection, both Terran and Zerg have means of quickly obtaining detection in an emergency. You'd obviously prefer to save energy for M.U.L.E.s, or your gas for Muta/Hydralisks, but if and when a DT/Banshee rush occurs scans/Overseers exist to save you. Your build can "safely" ignore detection if you so choose, as you have means to defend yourself. Protoss, on the other hand, are completely vulnerable without a Robotics Facility. Thus, it's imperative for a Protoss player to get one as soon as possible. Players wishing to pursue Templar tech or Air will often find themselves delaying in order to get Observers out. I wouldn't go so far as to call the situation broken, but it is part of what contributes to the awkwardness of Templar tech. | ||
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