As far as I remember, only EMP (terran) and fungus (Zerg) can remove cloak for a limited amount of time.
It would be great if psi storm or some other spell of protoss can reveal cloak, which let you use micro to compensate for a late robo. So sort of ability to detect cloak is really needed if we want a balanced tech tree for protoss. (Robo > stargate and templar right now)
Terran, on the other hand, already have scan. Isn't the EMP reveal feature a bit overkill? Does Terran really need so many detection options? They already they maphack installed in command center and sensor tower.
Zerg also has a lot of overlord that can be morph into overseer anytime it is needed. They also have fungus. I feel Zerg detection is fine.
The observer is arguably the cheapest and the best detector in the game and the protoss have a spell that cloaks units(although rarely seen), so I think it is an acceptable design decision for then not to have a revealing spell.
It would also be great if this ability were available before psistorm, since that's extremely late into the game. EMP is available extremely early, and fungal at t2. Psistorm is t3 plus a t3 research, so really too late for you to not have a robo in any case.
I can't think of any other ability it could be, though, so I doubt it'll ever happen.
The three races should have advantages and disadvantages. By this logic siege tanks should have the colossus ability to walk up ridges because their mobility is horrible otherwise and they clump up on ramps. It's called planing and you have photon cannons.
As Talic_Zealot has already mentioned, the observer is really cheap. It comes out fast and even faster when chrono boosted. Just because Terran and Zerg have an ability to decloak a unit it does not mean Protoss need one also. Just like how Zergs don't have a unit that can scale up and down cliffs.
On June 04 2010 16:44 Emon_ wrote: The three races should have advantages and disadvantages. By this logic siege tanks should have the colossus ability to walk up ridges because their mobility is horrible otherwise and they clump up on ramps. It's called planing and you have photon cannons.
I don't really think that's what it's about. It's less of a balance thing and more of conceptual game mechanic thing.
Perhaps it'd be imbalanced if toss had a reveal ability, but the thread isn't about balance, it's about the concept of it.
A good example of where this exists in the game is fungal growth, psionic storm, and EMP/seeker missle... these are all similar aoe damage abilities. They have some differences, and were balanced independently.
The point is, when someone proposes adding an entirely new concept to a race, don't say it'll be imbalanced, because balance is irrelevant (balance comes at a later stage than concept design).
ps: I'm not in support of giving toss any reveal ability, I just think it'd be cool to have that option in game. I don't know if it'd be imbalanced, because what unit would you even give it to? Psistorm comes too late to matter, and forcefield/guardian shield make no sense at all. So really, it's just not going to happen in any way that matters, but I still think it'd be a cool option.
well there wouldnt really be any point to adding that feature to psi storm. if you see a cloaked unit moving around it'll normally be one of a couple options. 1) burrowed roaches/infestors - just storm them and if they wanna do anything about it they have to unburrow. there they've just decloaked 2) ghosts/observer - storm will kill them anyways 3) banshees/dt - storm will force them to run away and take a pretty decent amount of damage. you can just watch the distortion and storm in their path and 2-3 storms will kill them 4) mothership - just feedback the MS
other than the HT there seems no other really viable protoss option. i suppose there could be a passive ability for the sentry or something. maybe a researchable ability at the cyber: "psionic sight" allows the sentry to detect nearby cloaked units. maybe have it a toggle ability that drains their energy (fairly quickly) and costs 250/250/30 to research. this way if you choose to skip robo tech you still have the option to obtain a detector (for a fairly hefty price)
On June 04 2010 16:42 Talic_Zealot wrote: The observer is arguably the cheapest and the best detector in the game and the protoss have a spell that cloaks units(although rarely seen), so I think it is an acceptable design decision for then not to have a revealing spell.
I agree with this, i've started to play alot of protoss lately (formerly a terran player) and protoss detection is fine in terms of detection. Observers are cheap and builds fast (if you chrono a observer it comes out in a couple of seconds) and Protoss players can build cannons for detection aswell so i strongly believe theres no need for it.
The races are different and work different, they don't need similar spells to be balanced.
Toss to me is just the race most lacking in emergency detection. Zerg have a hive and can thus go overseer from almost any build, and terran have scan available, as well as ravens available from a 1/1/1 opener which is so popular. Protoss, if going gateway heavy, or templar, or stargate have no mobile detection (and while 50/100 is pretty cheap for mobile detection, add in the cost of a robo bay only made for observers and then it is quite the time/cost commitment).
Not to say it is imba, every race has their strengths and weaknesses, but I do find when it comes to detection it is easiest to catch toss with their pants down.
you guys are forgetting that when protoss makes an observer you are sacrificing an immortal or collosus that can be used later on ( in a macro game), or some sort of marauder/roach allin.
its not as easy as you think it is to just make observers everywhere, i think its a good idea.
Yeah the games not about giving every race a similar ability thats the thing about Starcraft that makes it such an amazing RTS every race is pretty much Completely different. Just have to learn to adapt
I think robo tech for protoss is too necessary atm, maybe some other form of detection would help. I think the main thing is just how shit HT/DT tech branches are, I vote for psi storm coming pre-researched.
Also, Forcefield can trap cloaked ground units. Also Archon can probably splash cloaked/burrowed units if you attack your own shit nearby (confirm?). Also, mothership can vortex them (do they lose mana while gone if terran?).
On June 04 2010 17:47 shawabawa wrote: I think robo tech for protoss is too necessary atm, maybe some other form of detection would help. I think the main thing is just how shit HT/DT tech branches are, I vote for psi storm coming pre-researched.
just throw down couple of Cannons? No research for psi storms a bit much imo seeing as how powerfull it is
On June 04 2010 17:27 esaul17 wrote: Toss to me is just the race most lacking in emergency detection. Zerg have a hive and can thus go overseer from almost any build, and terran have scan available, as well as ravens available from a 1/1/1 opener which is so popular. Protoss, if going gateway heavy, or templar, or stargate have no mobile detection (and while 50/100 is pretty cheap for mobile detection, add in the cost of a robo bay only made for observers and then it is quite the time/cost commitment).
Not to say it is imba, every race has their strengths and weaknesses, but I do find when it comes to detection it is easiest to catch toss with their pants down.
I think it is fine the way it is now. You're going to want to go robo anyway to see what your opponent is doing when your worker gets chased out, not to mention you want the robo tech units in your mix. If you go Stargate your void/phoenix flies into their base allowing you to see their tech path. Worst case scenario when your pants are caught down you have to throw up some cannons.
On June 04 2010 17:30 lebalebaleba wrote: you guys are forgetting that when protoss makes an observer you are sacrificing an immortal or collosus that can be used later on ( in a macro game), or some sort of marauder/roach allin.
its not as easy as you think it is to just make observers everywhere, i think its a good idea.
Not entirely sure what you meant at the beginning, observers come out fairly quickly (you talk about macro and then allin, please clarify). You also don't need observers everywhere. Just where their army is, to check on their base from time to time, and where you might expect a drop. This really isn't any different to how you would use observers in SCBW.
On June 04 2010 17:47 shawabawa wrote: I think robo tech for protoss is too necessary atm, maybe some other form of detection would help. I think the main thing is just how shit HT/DT tech branches are, I vote for psi storm coming pre-researched.
Psi storm coming pre-researched would make HTs too good. I do agree with you that the HT/DT tech route is crap, I hate the Dark Shrine as it is right now.
I haven't actually checked this but do hallucinated obs detect(or can you hallucinate them)? if so I would think it a necessity if you wanted to go anything other than gate/robo
On June 04 2010 18:33 Darby.mcg wrote: I haven't actually checked this but do hallucinated obs detect(or can you hallucinate them)? if so I would think it a necessity if you wanted to go anything other than gate/robo
EPT
