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On June 02 2010 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Archons would be a lot better if depleted gases still gave 1-2 gas instead of 0, like in SC1.
pretty much this, and i'd rather suicide my two high templars than make that garbage unit, it does horrible vs non bio and gets slowed -_- and i don't think EMP is ALL that against archons, since they only take 100 shields instead of all your shields like in sc1, but that's the only good thing i see LOL
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On June 02 2010 09:14 Sephy69 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Archons would be a lot better if depleted gases still gave 1-2 gas instead of 0, like in SC1. pretty much this, and i'd rather suicide my two high templars than make that garbage unit, it does horrible vs non bio and gets slowed -_- and i don't think EMP is ALL that against archons, since they only take 100 shields instead of all your shields like in sc1, but that's the only good thing i see LOL
Still doesn't take away the fact that EMP is still bullshit on SC2. Really, no projectile?
I think reducing the build time from 17-12 will entice more Protoss player to make Archons though. Haha, still doesn't take away the fact that every Protoss player is scared to make HT's because of Ghosts.
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On June 02 2010 09:12 Mr.Eternity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 09:05 MooiSh wrote:On June 02 2010 08:30 puril wrote:
PvZ, archons are decent to support zealots against lings and small numbers of roaches, but i haven't found it useful against any other unit.
i want to add, since it is not a popular unit, there are less innovative strategies that incorporate the archon. so archon lovers be patient. i'm sure a year into the game, people will be doing creative stuff like dropping archons in mineral lines and such. archons kill workers pretty damn fast. as far as changing the unit, maybe shortening the morph time, but i disagree with buffing because it would upset balance against zerg. Sorry for double posting, but definate advice i would have for you in the PvZ matchup. Archons are amazing units against small hydra balls, but i'll concede they are pretty terrible against roaches. The good news however is with decent forcefields, one of the most devastating early game counters to roaches is zeal/sentry/dt, as with +1 Dt's 3hit roaches and forcefields prevent both the roaches microing away and multiple roaches stacking their damage up on the front units (out of range behind forcefield). This unit combination is rather effective and not as heavily mapped out as DT tech seems to be an afterthough to most Protoss' these days. Due to the DT/sentry/zeal > Roach and Archon/sentry/zeal > hydra dynamic, try going Dt's into Archons, rather than HT's into archons. Works wonders in the correct situations  when do you ever see a SMALL hydra ball by the time you have archons?
I would consider a small hydra ball as anything less then 20-24 hydralisks. And seeing as that costs 2000/1000 it can't just appear out of nowhere. I think what you're mis-interpreting is that this is not a slow tech to DT's as you would see in a conventional game, this is a tech straight to DT's without sacrificing eco / with an expansion thrown in. If you FE --> DT's you will usually be able to crush any Zerg midgame with the appropriate push relevant to his unit composition (so DT's or Archons depending on Roaches or Hydras) if the Zerg tries for any kind of normally timed third base. Admittedly If the Zerg sticks to 2base Hydra / 2 Base Roaches it will be likely that the Zerg is approaching a number in which it can no longer be considered a 'small' ball of units, but in that respect there is no need to push, merely to expand with cannons and secure a macro advantage whilst harrassing with DT's
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On June 02 2010 05:48 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So wouldn't high templar castin feedback on the ghosts help solve the EMP issue?
EMP has more range, is AOE and ghosts also have cloak > really hard to feedback. Feedback is quite useful against medivacs for example but not against ghosts.
Archons damage and splash is great but the range and movement speed are just non-existent. They could only work if you have a ton of zealots in front of them to absorb the damage until the archons finally arrive and the opponent does not kite nor focus fire on them.
I've also tried archon drops to harras workers they happily run away with minimal loses.
They are pretty useful in PvT after you use all your energy for storm/feedback because the terran feels pressured and spends EMPs on them, which leaves the rest of your army in a better position but that's pretty much it.
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I've always thought that if archon merge was instant, they would actually but useable in the role Blizzard wants to put them in. The recent 5 second reduction is good, but I would like to try an instantaneous cast on merge. Is this really a horrible idea?
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On June 02 2010 05:47 pyr0ma5ta wrote:
They cost a zillion gas, and get roflstomped by EMP?
Also, their range and size is hilaribad.
EMP only takes off 100 shields in this game, down from all in BW.
Also, don't dismiss Archons too quickly. They are extremely useful in faster Storm tech builds for the unit recycle aspect, particularly when defending with storm.
Also, if i go Templar before Collosus in PvZ, I like a timing push involving Immortals, Stalkers, Sentries, Zealots and Archons. (while Storm is upgrading)
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EMP only gets rid of 100 shields people!
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I would bet you anything that someone is going to send one lone Archon in, waste 2 Ghosts' energy completely, then rofl stomp the Terran Mech with Immortals :D
High Templars tank 1 EMP and die
Archons tank 4 and die
In addition, you can send 2 Templars in, and regardless of whether or not you used Storm, you get to tank an additional 4 EMPs anyways (6 total if they got your HTs with EMP)
You just saved 8 Immortals from being Roflstompped by Tanks.
+ Show Spoiler +And yes, I'm actually being serious. Stop dismissing Archons because they aren't "useful." They are a essentially free units that merge together from units that have already served their purpose. They might not be "lolmutas" anymore, but we have Phoenixes for that now (and by that, I mean that Phoenixes are a better counter to Mutas than Corsairs and Archons were combined). Sure, it's an entirely new tech tree, but did you really think that relying solely on a T3 "giant" unit was going to work?
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Ill fess up, I use archons just about every pvt and pvz. They are really good bridge while researching storm/energy upgrade. Zealot/Archon/sentry holds off most annoying terran bio attacks, is a good followup after 10gate pressure on a zerg xp. Archons are definitely useful, tanky, do good damage to bio, and are available before storm, and open up the templar tech tree, which in other threads, people are conflicted on which is better. Being cheap on minerals allows for more XP, more zealots, more warpgates.
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I'd prefer to save my HT's and regen their mana to storm another day under most circumstances; only if it's a close fight would I want to make an archon. I'm not saying that archons are bad, it's just that high templars are better.
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On June 02 2010 10:20 Zeke50100 wrote:
I would bet you anything that someone is going to send one lone Archon in, waste 2 Ghosts' energy completely, then rofl stomp the Terran Mech with Immortals :D
High Templars tank 1 EMP and die
Archons tank 4 and die
Why would anyone waste an EMP on a lone Archon instead of one-shotting it with their army?
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I think they should move feedback to the archon so that they would be used more. I would also give it a higher attack rate.
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Someone (read: someone better than me) should try zealots+sentries into dark temps+Archons. I think this might be a relatively powerful build if you can get a strong enough economy early. Archons with a few points in shields+guardian shield would be really powerful against Zerg.
Also, you shouldn't waste your high temps on Archons... 250/250 might be worth it, 100/300 is not. Vespene is just too valuable, you'd be better off waiting for another storm.
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On June 02 2010 12:28 UnburrowedLurker wrote:
Someone (read: someone better than me) should try zealots+sentries into dark temps+Archons. I think this might be a relatively powerful build if you can get a strong enough economy early. Archons with a few points in shields+guardian shield would be really powerful against Zerg.
Also, you shouldn't waste your high temps on Archons... 250/250 might be worth it, 100/300 is not. Vespene is just too valuable, you'd be better off waiting for another storm.
I haven't had much luck going DT tech before HT tech. I find it just takes too long to get the Dark shrine (more gas + twice as long build time), and its a tougher follow up with if the dt's dont accomplish too much. The zerg will have an overseer or 2 or at least lair tech by that point, especially with the threat of VR's. Against terran, they should have a bit of scan, probably will scout the tech, also ghosts + emp make dt's the same fodder ht's are, and 1-1-1 opening leads to ravens easily.
Also, i actually prefer the 100/300 for an archon moreso than the 250/250 because the extra mins = more zealots/gateways or earlier expansion. 250/250 is really close to 300/200 for collosus, at which point, collosus are without a doubt better than archons. The zealots/chargelots help immensely.
The biggest problem with the dt's is they are expansive, cloaked glass cannons, which just aren't practical after the first few, at which point you have to tech somewhere else anyway. They can win, but its not near as often as a surprisingly chargelot/1 sentry/2 archon ends up being an insta-win. Maybe this changes as people adjust, if more people play like this, as did with void rays (even before range decrease). Until then, ill keep at it.
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I'm not the Archon's biggest fan, but I feel the need to play devils advocate on this one. A Colossus would usually be a better investment, but if the enemy goes corrupters/vikings/mutas/banshees you're going to wish you had the Archons. At the very least, getting Archons makes you're army more versatile, as you can spend less on other forms of AA.
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Archons in sc1 were made when u have 2 templars that are out of energy. In sc2, high templars are are used much less frequently.
Archons in sc1 were also an end game unit when all the minerals are mined up. Psionic storms come at no cost and archons are only 100 minerals while assimilaters still gave 2 gas. The combination of the two units are Protoss's only option when all minerals are gone. In sc2, it is rare to get to the point where all minerals are mined out because without high ground advantage, there isn't nearly a big of a home field advantage in defending, so games are much shorter.
In sc2, gas is a lot more valuable because you need it for void rays and colossi. In sc1, zealots are standard in all 3 matchups so you do have gas to spend. In sc2, zealots are not used nearly as often.
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EMP hurts, but it's really not that bad. It'll rarely get hit by more than 1 EMP, which is only 100 shields depleted. When the unit has 350 total shields, it's not as bad as it could be. At least EMPs dont' instagib all shields now.
The archon is amazing, it's only "hated" because it only appears when the protoss player decides to go templar tech. however, they're not bad as a unit choice. they are great tanks, as shields no longer take "full" damage from all sources; they have a pretty good damage output, especially when upgraded; additionally, their splash recently got buffed, i believe. they're good units, but they just don't see much use until the HT or DT runs out of usefulness.
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On June 02 2010 10:20 Zeke50100 wrote:
I would bet you anything that someone is going to send one lone Archon in, waste 2 Ghosts' energy completely, then rofl stomp the Terran Mech with Immortals :D
High Templars tank 1 EMP and die
Archons tank 4 and die
In addition, you can send 2 Templars in, and regardless of whether or not you used Storm, you get to tank an additional 4 EMPs anyways (6 total if they got your HTs with EMP)
You just saved 8 Immortals from being Roflstompped by Tanks.
And yes, I'm actually being serious. Stop dismissing Archons because they aren't "useful." They are a essentially free units that merge together from units that have already served their purpose. They might not be "lolmutas" anymore, but we have Phoenixes for that now (and by that, I mean that Phoenixes are a better counter to Mutas than Corsairs and Archons were combined). Sure, it's an entirely new tech tree, but did you really think that relying solely on a T3 "giant" unit was going to work?
lol no.
low # of phoenix hardcounter low #'s of muta. its been tested and proven that 30 mutas beat 20 phoenix straight up. and dont give me the infinite kite crap, it works with 3-6 phoenix vs 10-12 muta but not when you get that giant ass ball. and no zerg is stupid enough to fly after you while you shoot him.
archons and corsairs were MUCH better counters to mutas. its not even close.
also, who the fuck would emp a lone archon? if you send in a lone archon in terran just kills it and laughs. plus EMP is AOE, so you are probably hitting quite a bit of his army with the archon. unless you are stupid enough to EMP just the archon.
the numbers in this case dont lie. most units got a ~5% dps buff from BW to SC2. archon got NERFED by about 40% (15% vs bio) {note this is DPS, not burst damage}, not to mention the large splash radius decrease. they are MUCH less effective now
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115345 <-- where i got the numbers.
i mean what is the sc2 archon good at? ranged terran balls kill it before it does damage, it sucks vs hydras and roaches, and storm is pretty rare pvp as colossi are virtually always better.
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On June 02 2010 13:42 Chen wrote:
i mean what is the sc2 archon good at? ranged terran balls kill it before it does damage, it sucks vs hydras and roaches, and storm is pretty rare pvp as colossi are virtually always better.
An overwhelming majority of PvZ applications, it is a fundermental part of many strong lategame Protoss army compositions against Z
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On June 02 2010 13:38 Chairman Ray wrote:
In sc2, gas is a lot more valuable because you need it for void rays and colossi. In sc1, zealots are standard in all 3 matchups so you do have gas to spend. In sc2, zealots are not used nearly as often.
I disagree with this. Gas is valuable, but it really depends on what unit composition you are going for.
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For example against terrans, early game i use the following. 50 gas - stalker (for reapers) 50 gas, warpgates. 100 gas, sentry. The rest is devoted entired to teching to templar archives and immediatly warping in 2 templar for an archon. The extra minerals i have get spent on making gateways and zealots so i have several (sorry, don't have a count right now), and having 4 warpgates by the time the templar archives finish. The terran bio pushes right around the time i have the 1st archon out at about 7 minutes. Either way, if im slow or behind i can stall at the ramp and with zealots, because the terran will micro.
After that, i either spend the next 200 on charge, or next 300 on another archon depending on how soon it looks like the terran is going to push. Charge is more important than storm because it makes the mineral fodder zealots worth something, and its crucial to have fodder for the archons and templars, despite concussive shell being somewhat of a pain. Also helps with flanking easily.
If the terran is late on his push with MM, ill flank him in the open and he doesnt stand a chance. If he turtles up, ill expand (yay excess minerals) and get more gas which makes templar spam so easy along with map control.
I've run into various builds from the terran, and various pushes with some form of MM, marine tank, MMG, Marine ghost. And had success against all i've seen so far, except one who turtled and went mass thor "for fun" but, i played poorly and didnt scout.
The main point of opening like this is 1: it stops the annoying bio, often winning quickly (same as VR's used to until terrans adapted). 2:it opens up templar tech quickly (charge), and relatively safely, which is the most versatile tech tree in my opinion. Not to mention, against terran MMM, pretty much dominates between storm and feedback. Usually the terran is committed to 3 rax/whatever at this point, and will cost him alot to transition.
Other benefits are: it lets me expand faster than if i went collosus. It's different. I've gotten my fair share of "wtf? seriously? archon rush?" comments. I doubt anyone would have experience with it yet. Quick ghosts don't do anything from what ive seen so far. Emp is annoying, but its 100 sheilds hardly an army breaker at this point in the game, and he will only have 2-3 ghosts that early anyway. enough for maybe 3 emps, hardly a worry if he wants to blow all his energy on the obvious target archon (which obviously should be a bit spread out). Also, archons don't take bonus damage from marauders.
Any further in the game really depends on the map and scouting.
Other than that for now. any questions or feedback welcome.
Misc: Rank 1 diamond (meh, crappy division, but id assume i've played decent players having that spot), solely because of abusing terrans. Horrible pvp and average pvz. I'm by no means great, but id call PvT my best matchup, by far.
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