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Mr.E
United States434 Posts
This is the same reason the game wont be truely balanced for years... after most people have already bought the game, then they can focus on creating a proper ESport and thus continue the revenue flow I have to say that was very well said and saves me the trouble of making that last point. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
Oh and let's not forget achievements were (most) praised in the CoD series for XBOX, which coincidentally was created by Activision, not that I'm really complaining about the achievements system. | ||
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Tristan
Canada566 Posts
I understand actually the reasons for divisions in the context of the hinted end of season tournaments. I know it isn't perfect, but the fact that they intend for some end of season tournament including the top 8 of every division makes sense to me. It feels more accessible than a giant ladder where the top 128 or whatever are chosen to participate. This way at least makes you feel like you might have the opportunity a little more in your grasp. I am in support of a global ladder, but I also know the limitations it had (i.e. if you were not at the top, being rank 1014562 meant nothing, especially when you jump up 75 ranks every win, yet in the higher circles it is great.) On Leagues: I think the leagues were a great idea borrowed from ICCup's playbook. It instantly can give you a general idea of a player's skill level and gives a player some concrete feelings of accomplishment and progression beyond simple numbers. I do however wish they approached it in a more percentile based system instead of what seems to be linear. The logic I have for this is if you make it linear you will have what we have now, a system where the top league is going to eventually be flooded with people and the meaning of Platinum (or now diamond) becomes less and less meaningful. In a percentile based system, where diamond divisions are created, but designed to be exactly for the top 0.5% of the player-base and so on downward to Bronze, you will actually see a very cool occurrence in the long term where being a Diamond payer will actually become harder and harder to do with stronger competition. You may even add new leagues later for newer players so they don't have such a horrible barrier to entry. I think this makes the competitive nature that drives laddering feel much better than in a few years where any player who's been playing online for more than x months will likely be in Diamond and then no progression from thereon out. On Facebook: I am honestly surprised by the amount of crying about facebook. Like it or lump it is has become a staple of the online experience. Battle.net 2.0's Real ID system is designed to be a social network of all your friends online and offline who play Blizzard games, any blizzard games from SC to Diablo to Warcraft. What easier way to find the most amount of friends for the most amount of people than to sign up for a deal with Facebook, the same deal Facebook has been making with many other sites and services. There are issues with the friends list, but the facebook integration is benign leave it alone. On Friends: Honestly, this new system for friends list is a bit of a cluster!@!@, but I can see why it happened and the logic behind it. I think Blizzard will see the huge negative reaction here and find a new way to fix it. Blizzard is trying to find a workaround to this social network and eliminating the unique naming requirement that in the years to come will result in wonderful names like StorkFan35i578463563534846756735735. I think this was to facilitate the same connection to your chosen name (since you can only make one) that many associate with the Korean pro-scene today. (Flash, Stork, Jaedong). They tried using identifiers, and people *@!@@ed, honestly I thought the idea worked and I would prefer identifiers to this but whatever. So instead of using identifiers as a background uniqueness database tag, they use a Battle.net email which is a big privacy issue when making online friends who aren't real life friends. Honestly, I would prefer the compromise of the name.identifier scheme they had before, and while some people didn't like it, I think it was a strong compromise for famous players who didn't want to be harassed, ensuring names are unique, and that names and emails can be private if you so wish. It was a little annoying with people impersonating others, but it was the best solution for pleasing the most people and I think that most people were grudgingly accepting the name.identifier system. On the Descent of Gaming: I had a talk once with a nameless progamer and he basically explained that with the market trends and the fact that game studios have needed to dumb down their games to keep in the black means that most games can no longer be hard enough to be competitive anymore. But I do have to say, that out of all the games I've seen, SC2 has to be the best attempt at trying to make an accessible but competitive game, and I really commend them for it. I think that competitive gaming's future might have to rest on indie titles that cater to this exact demand or we might see a death of really competitive esports in the long term future. | ||
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SouL)R(MizaR
Australia111 Posts
On May 23 2010 22:42 lolaloc wrote: Let's just not buy the "Blizz for ESPORTS" thing anymore. If SC2 is indeed designed for ESPORTS, we should have gotten: - LAN - Chat channels - Host tournament (w/ grids and stuff) - Global ladder - No divisions The achievements shouldn't even be at its current state. The achievements IMO aren't supposed to be "I Win" or "Zerg Solo Streaker". It should be something like "Blizzard SC2 League S1 Champion" or something like that. couldn't agree with you more EDIT: Dimond league can be obtained with a 4/1 ratio this is just complete garbage. Even if you place 5/0 you should not be placed into Dimond. How is it special being placed into the top league by going 5/0 ? 5/0 should earn you a spot into platinum, from there you can work your rating up the ranks and earn your spot into Dimond. | ||
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Naf
Denmark68 Posts
sadly tho, as you mention your self, it's all about the $$$, and wow just showed Blizz how to make that, so why do anything else... sad but true  | ||
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Pking
Sweden142 Posts
Why have divisions at all when ranks don't make any sense outside your division and ratings don't make any sense when people are more focused on relative ranks? What is more fun: Being ranked nr. 10304/32194, maybe moving up to rank 10109 after a match. OR, being ranked nr. 30 in your division and moving up to 29? The latter is more encouraging imo. But now we have a whole new level of obfuscation. Instead of having numbered divisions, we have named divisions. I think a lot of people where confusing rank and division number, e.g. thinking division 1 was better than division 10. Using names removes any confusion. Well, nowadays we don't have any of that. There ARE unlocks and achievements but the overwhelming majority of them are incredibly easy to get. I'm not a big fan of achievements and I agree that they are often too easy to get - many games just seems to spam you with achievements. I'm for less achievements that are more significant to get. And I would like other players too see the achievements, so I can show off (I thought the unlocking portraits was nice). Nobody's holding your hand or trying to find ways to convince you that you are awesome at the game. You find satisfaction in the slow and steady climb up the ladder, not because the game or the system is giving you achievements and rewards and any external motivation, but because you feel self-improvement as an internal reward. Maybe it's a matter of preference but my gratification comes mostly from competing/comparing with others and not with myself. I want to beat my friends and I want to be the best player in my region, my division and league and so on. It gives me steady goals that are clearly defined and I have a clear way of seeing progress. Moving up from being the 10040340 best in the world to being the 10040120 best is not very encouraging and the number does not feel as meaningful. I think the ladder and rating system is far from perfect but I also think it is easy too loose perspective. How many games even have a ladder/ranking system? How many games takes achieving balance seriously? How many games have features for replays and making commentaries? I think Starcraft 2 have done many things right. | ||
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LightYears
39 Posts
These rewards - I won 5 or 10 games as race X are incredibly stupid. Dont know how SC bnet was but war3 bnet was 100000 times better... There you could see who has how many wins:losses in solo, what level he is based on his wins/losses, all were on ONE ladder not some stupid divions on stupid meta metal metal metal mineral (dimanond) names without some stupid 'I won 5 games' acheivement What is an achievement? Winning 5 games, getting rank 10 in noob division 50? Wtf Blizzard. I say make achievements only to winners of tournaments and make them somehow this option available this is an cheivement not the upper bs./ | ||
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rwan
Canada68 Posts
I agree with OP 100%! And I looooooove the comparison with elephant shit. LOL XD | ||
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LightYears
39 Posts
Same here. Stop saying this is just beta cause whatever you see here wont change much in release | ||
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Brad
2754 Posts
The days of things being 'simple' are over. | ||
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SubKaiser
Germany68 Posts
So it is in ANY competetive environment/sport. I'm by far no pro gamer and I'm fine with being #93407 in the world (or whatever). But being Top 10 in Gold means NOTHING to me because I can't figure out what the hell that means. In chess you have an ELO number so can quite well compare to other chess players. Sure i can beat another player of 200 points higher. But in general that is the exception. And dividing into more different leagues which are being further divided into divisions falsifies these ELO numbers. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45733 Posts
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Brad
2754 Posts
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Waltchelg
United States66 Posts
Why do you people care so much about a ladder that is implemented in the game? There are always going to be flaws with and and honestly being at 2200 ELO doesn't mean you're the best in the game. You're not going to see the 'pro' players spamming ladder games except to try out random new BOs and other wacky things. They're going to be playing custom games.... if you want exposure play in tournaments and stop worrying so much about ladder. It's not the end of the fucking world if the ladder in game doesn't tell you you're in the "Top 10" especially when even that is a lie due to the best players not even competing. You people are over exaggerating the implications of a "casual friendly" ladder system such as this. It does nothing to hurt the competitive scene other than make some players who are not as good feel entitled to enter tournaments (WHICH THEY SHOULD ANYWAY - more players = better scene). ^ On that note I wouldn't mind them taking away the division system but its not the end of the world if they do not. | ||
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LightYears
39 Posts
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
On May 23 2010 22:21 joolz wrote:I work in the video game industry. I won't say what studio I work for, but I can make one statement of absolute fact about Blizzard's SC2 development team. Good luck with your clairvoyance. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
That being said, the division system is horrible but I guess it sells. I mean... the Wii sells... | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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RoMarX
Argentina189 Posts
On May 24 2010 00 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 24 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:55 Waltchelg wrote: I read most of the OP and skimmed some replies... Why do you people care so much about a ladder that is implemented in the game? There are always going to be flaws with and and honestly being at 2200 ELO doesn't mean you're the best in the game. You're not going to see the 'pro' players spamming ladder games except to try out random new BOs and other wacky things. They're going to be playing custom games.... if you want exposure play in tournaments and stop worrying so much about ladder. It's not the end of the fucking world if the ladder in game doesn't tell you you're in the "Top 10" especially when even that is a lie due to the best players not even competing. You people are over exaggerating the implications of a "casual friendly" ladder system such as this. It does nothing to hurt the competitive scene other than make some players who are not as good feel entitled to enter tournaments (WHICH THEY SHOULD ANYWAY - more players = better scene). ^ On that note I wouldn't mind them taking away the division system but its not the end of the world if they do not. this. stop the QQ my fucking god. what if they want noobs to feel good? no everyone is a nerd who want to improve from 8988/1000 to 8987/1000. it OBVIOUSLY feel better to fight for a rank 1 of a division silver or whatever, then you move for the next division and try to be rank 1 of that (this happened to myself, when i started like 2 weeks ago, it give you a LOT MORE of motivation to climb the ladder in that way). i think its a great ladder system (always matched vs people with similar skill level too). anyways it will be good a paralel general ladder like starcraft2rankings.com for the competitive players to know where they are. but STILL the ELO means and the % wins means who is really good and who is not, also you can see who the better players are in the tournaments. and i really dont understand whats wrong with the accomplishment. WTF MAN WHY U CARE ABOUT THAT, its not gonna change you nothing, if you dont want to use them is OK, NO ONE CARES. | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
If you can't make it to the top league (diamond now), you are below ~1200 in the top league, and the league you top out at is a good indication of skill level (ratings below these levels are not very accurate anyway because players perform more variably in each game at lower levels--since game changing mistakes are very common). If you care about the information, it's quite easy to figure out where you stand. A large majority of the complain posts about the ladder are very misinformed and reveal large misconceptions. Also, displaying an overall ranking list based on rating is a really, really easy change. It could be added as an afterthought by Blizzard at any point really (it's already basically been done by people online) so this has absolutely no bearing on "the game can't be fixed by release". | ||
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