|
On May 24 2010 00:42 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 00:34 Icemind wrote:
Really nice article and i have to agree with you, those buff/debuff spells had a place in Warcraft 3 because every single unit was worth so much and made such a huge difference (and took a long time to kill) as well as Warcraft beeing more of a micro game in general. You are forgetting defensive matrix in bw. Lots of people still use it in high level games. I don't see anything wrong with adding another micro dimension to the game especially when unit counts are low on both sides after a big battle.
You are definately missing the difference between useful single target spells, and minor buffs.
Defensive Matrix has a lot of possible uses, while these 2 little spells have just one bland simple straighforward non-gamebreaking use
|
On May 24 2010 00:42 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 00:34 Icemind wrote:
Really nice article and i have to agree with you, those buff/debuff spells had a place in Warcraft 3 because every single unit was worth so much and made such a huge difference (and took a long time to kill) as well as Warcraft beeing more of a micro game in general. You are forgetting defensive matrix in bw. Lots of people still use it in high level games. I don't see anything wrong with adding another micro dimension to the game especially when unit counts are low on both sides after a big battle.
I dont 
Defense matrix was a single target spell yes, but one with a huge effect, just like feedback and neural parasite (which is a debuff too but with the difference that this one really makes a huge difference), or sticking with bw just like mind control. Matrix also had a decent cost of 75 energy on the terran main caster unit but that was ok since it was in accordance to the effect.
In contrast frenzy has low cost yes but also only a neglible effect. The problem with this is that you really can only scale down cost and effect up to a certain point where the invested micro starts beeing a huge cost as well. In my opinion frenzy is significantly past that point.
|
I am fine with single target spells. Corruption and frenzy just happen to be terrible and poorly thought out.
|
Make frenzy AOE! I don't really like the frenzy spell altogether but a AOE frenzy would be way better than a single target frenzy. It also adds to positioning of units a lot.
|
On May 23 2010 22:04 Opinion wrote:
Frenzy Synapses
All biological units within range (9) of the Infestor deal 25% more damage and are immune to snare, stuns, and mind control.
Lol range 9 you're kidding me. that's your entire army you're essentially canceling out concussive shells and fungal growth in zvz etc etc. that's absolutely ridiculous
On May 24 2010 01:04 Icemind wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 00:42 Glacierz wrote:On May 24 2010 00:34 Icemind wrote:
Really nice article and i have to agree with you, those buff/debuff spells had a place in Warcraft 3 because every single unit was worth so much and made such a huge difference (and took a long time to kill) as well as Warcraft beeing more of a micro game in general. You are forgetting defensive matrix in bw. Lots of people still use it in high level games. I don't see anything wrong with adding another micro dimension to the game especially when unit counts are low on both sides after a big battle. I dont Defense matrix was a single target spell yes, but one with a huge effect, just like feedback and neural parasite (which is a debuff too but with the difference that this one really makes a huge difference), or sticking with bw just like mind control. Matrix also had a decent cost of 75 energy on the terran main caster unit but that was ok since it was in accordance to the effect. In contrast frenzy has low cost yes but also only a neglible effect. The problem with this is that you really can only scale down cost and effect up to a certain point where the invested micro starts beeing a huge cost as well. In my opinion frenzy is significantly past that point.
Edit: This is in agreement with the post above (lol). Defense matrix is exactly what it states itself to be: its a defensive ability. its purpose is to extend the life of a specific unit. what makes it powerful is the different things other units can do while its alive for that much longer. keeping one tank alive so it can splatter hydras. matrixing 1 marine so it can be targeted by sunkens while other marines deal damage. dmatrixing 1 sci vess and then irradiating it to eraser drones. there's so many different ways that spell can be used that even though its on a single unit the effect is multidimensional.
frenzy just increases damage and eliminate snare. on one unit. that's basically giving a damage boost for a temporary amount of time, so unless this unit is a suicide bomber (a la infested terran of sc1) or setting a trap (frenzying 4 lurkers with lurker hold on and then release [which isn't applicable since no lurkers QQ] ) then there is no real application to that ability. at most all this will lead to is everything target firing ultralisks first and taking fire from other units, essentially making ultras an intimidation meat shield whose only damage comes indirectly from enemy units not responding to your units initial attack. you would never frenzy a zergling. why would you? there's no point. just because it deals more damage it dies equally fast. it's a 1 dimensional spell. spell = more dmg.
|
Hmmm didnt you just say what i did? That matrix is a spell with huge effect and versatility while frenzy is not?
|
I think as a general rule, any spell that costs only 25 energy which is available on a large number of units is likely to be suspect in a mass-unit game.
|
Frenzy is an attempt from blizzard to buff the ultralisk (anti-snare, anti-stun etc) and is not meant to be used on zerglings. And corruption is like a bonus for those who have sufficent APM to use it. And making those spell autocasted or AOE isnt the starcraft way.
|
On May 24 2010 01:30 Icemind wrote:Hmmm didnt you just say what i did? That matrix is a spell with huge effect and versatility while frenzy is not?
Oh I guess I did.
:o
<3
|
Frenzy and corruption are boring, abstract abilities compared to even the useless abilities in SC1. I oppose their very concept regardless of whether or not they find use in the pro scene.
To illustrate a visceral, awesome ability: 300m strike cannon. *klikliklikli-KERCHUNK* Boom bada boom!
|
The spell does work well on Ultralisks from what I've found but the gas cost is so high it will never make Ultras a viable option in any skilled one on one play. I've used Infester/Ultra in 2v2 and it works quite well in the six games I've done it in. Unfortunately this is really the worst way to 'buff' the Ultra, the Ultra needed an HP buff and an armor-type change, what was done was not necessary (in fact it was a nerf). Infester in and of itself needed a new spell, they should never be designed to have ' a support spell for one unit you get one in 25 games '.
|
![[image loading]](http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/9833/collosushires.jpg)
i forgot how saturated and different sc2 used to look. I wish there was an option to make it look like that if you wanted to.....
|
On May 24 2010 06:10 pzea469 wrote:i forgot how saturated and different sc2 used to look. I wish there was an option to make it look like that if you wanted to.....
Didnt everyone use to complain about how saturated it looked? lol
|
after 3 pages of this forum ive heard nothing but anti-SC comments.
seems like people want "easier-than-autocast" aura's similar to wc3
i hope blizzard devs aint reading this post, coz we'll most likely end up
with some shit in SC that has no place in the game what so ever
|
frenzy and corruption are pretty awful spells :\
like they took 2 decent at best concepts for spells and made them the worst possible implementation of them
I'd rather have corruption just be "acid spore cloud" and be exactly like acid spores (-armor) and have it be AoE (or if you're going to keep it single-unit then ffs make it cheaper energy 100 is so fucking stupid when you compare it to something like graviton-beam for only 50)
I hate frenzy so much. I'd almost rather have infested terrans back. They should just give infestors "basically" defensive matrix and make it zergy (like the infestor sneezes a bunch of goo on the unit and then it has way more armor or something).
Frenzy is just so stupid. It's so clearly made with the sole purpose of making players build infestors to cast it on ultralisks. unbelievably 1-dimensional :\ honestly if they are going to go with a 3rd spell for infestor that is supposed to make them sync well with ultra's, I'd rather have something that at least might be useful for casting with things outside of ultras T_T. How about a spell where the infestor throws up a big ball of goo on the enemy (AoE) that semi-blinds them so their sight and range is decreased by half, giving all melee units a lot more free room to run towards enemy before they get killed. Frenzy seems like such a fucking makeshift spell where they didnt want to really do a lot of coding and just get it out in a hurry, so they just did a super easy "make some stupid graphic that's barely noticeable and then just boost the damage for a bit" that even I could of coded lol. Damnit we're not going to see any new cool stuff made in beta at all T_T. I mean we had this situation where something new and cool was so clearly and desperately needed and instead they just move some dead spells over to new units and create the most un-interesting and half-assed spells in the game (moving 2 shitty spells to overseer (although honestly I really love contaminate being moved to overseer, infested terran on it is such a lame half-ass move) and then making another lame-ass ezpz spell in frenzy like they did with corruption).
|
On May 24 2010 06:13 Woyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 06:10 pzea469 wrote:i forgot how saturated and different sc2 used to look. I wish there was an option to make it look like that if you wanted to..... Didnt everyone use to complain about how saturated it looked? lol
lol yeah, i was one of them. But i kinda want the option to have it like that. I guess i could just turn up my saturation really high.
|
They could try doing it where units within a certain range of a frenzied unit also go into a frenzy (all balanced of course so it isn't OPed)
|
I think frenzy would be cool if they took away the movement crap and made it a small aoe type spell. Sort of like stim. A second spell worth casting to compete with fungal would be cool. Neural is good but situational.
|
Starcraft 2 is all about large armies with a small number of critical units, so I agree that single-target spells are out of place in Starcraft 2. I think blizzard is too concerned with small and individual unit control when the focus should be on diversifying and deepening LARGE ARMY control.
This entails making units less robust, introducing more high-risk high-damage types of units that depend on micro that are used IN COMBINATION with a larger army, and more diversity in how units move and attack. Also, the game is in dire need of improving the significance of positioning.
READ IT BLIZZARD PLEASE: MICRO IN STARCRAFT 2 SHOULD REVOLVE AROUND LARGE ARMY CONTROL AND POSITIONING.
|
I agree with the frenzy AOE thing. So make it cost 150 energy instead of 75. And make the target size about 3-4 hydralisks. So if you had 5 infestors with a lot of energy, you could frenzy your entire front line in about 5 clicks, as opposed to.... doing it 15 times...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
