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On May 23 2010 17:56 Tinithor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 17:48 lew wrote:
I am really scared that they won't listen to us, just like activision did not listen to the cod community. We had an awesome Belgium call of duty community, and after the mw games came out it died. I moved to sc1 and I really hope that blizzard will not make the same mistake as activision =(.
Am I the only one having the feeling that good esports games are not produced anymore? They make everything so easy and just dumb. Starcraft 2 was actually my last hope... We really need to convince blizzard!
What about this idea: form a group with people like day9, tasteless and all those people who know what sc2 & battlenet 2 needs to success, and advice blizzard. Visit their headquarters, talk to them, advice, ... Form a group of esports representatives. I think they truly honestly do NOT care about the ACTUAL competetive side of this game. They'll try to make it LOOK like they do so as to get more money but i think they just wanna get as many people to buy the game at release as possible and thats about it.
They don't. They can say whatever they want, actions are what matters. They clearly don't care about anything but the short term, and I guarantee you that's because they don't really see any extra DIRECT money from the competitive side of the game. Look at tournaments like HDH, etc. Do they get any money for that? No. You need look no farther than this post from February : http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23280178113&sid=5000
to see that Blizzard is trying to control the competitive scene, rather than let it happen on its own.
Basically, they're ignoring the free advertising that a well-developed community brings, and focusing completely on short-term gains at the expense of said community. Their playerbase is the casuals now (just look at WoW), and they're catering to them exclusively. Chat channels, clan support, and other base Bnet functionality is not something the casuals care about, so they are left out (or at least such a low priority that we'll be lucky to get them in one of the expansions a couple years from now). Facebook integration, achievements, these are bells and whistles that bring in the casuals, so this frivolous crap is what they're focusing on.
To them, it makes no difference whether SC2 dies a year after Legacy of the Void comes out or not. As long as we bought the game and the xpacs, they got their money, and they clearly are only out for the short term now. They're not thinking about making this another 10+ year run like SC1, culminating with guaranteed sales of SC3 in 2020. They're thinking only about how much money they can milk out of everyone RIGHT NOW, and who cares if they break the game.
MW2 sucked donkey balls, and is dead only months after release, but I guarantee you Activision considers it a resounding success. Nevermind that they probably cut sales of any eventual MW3 in half.
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I have been following SC2 since it was announced. I started preparing to become good at it.
At the end of 2008, the game looked mostly complete judging from the videos. I actually expected it to come out at 10th anniversary.
But then the game got delayed for Battle.net 2.0 development.
I thought - how nice this might be! Blizzard wants to astonish everyone with new generation platform that includes every feature possible!
Finally, Bnet 2.0 was deployed into the beta.
FUCK YOU BLIZZARD! YOU ARE STUPID MORONS! I no longer believe in shitty promises, enough for me. I work in IT industry myself and know perfectly that nothing is going to change that far in the beta. Bnet is screwed, it's a piece of dog shit. Only fucking casuals can play in this crap. It looks like you made everything as bad as you possibly could.
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The playerbase will do what blizzard didn't, hopefully something like iccup will come into existence (I don't know if it is possible?). Simple things like chat rooms and the starcraft rankings website already have been made. I know it is disgusting that the consumer has to fix the product, but that just shows how much we love the game. I wish blizzard loved it too, instead of the green(or whatever color your counties currency is) paper that it prints. But that's business.
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Let me refine my above post a moment, because this actually all makes sense if you stuff yourself into a businessperson's head. REMEMBER : most modern businesspeople only care about short term gains, NOT long term stability.
Working from the businessperson's head, everything that the development team does is focused on the target market. Their target market is not us, it is the new generation of gamers (the same ones that bought 10+ million copies of WoW). All their actions are focused on marketing their product to this target market, and thus they have to give them what they want.
What does this target market want?
- They want to feel like they accomplish something when they log in. Gogo league system and achievements.
- They only want to play with the few people they feel comfortable with, and they want to be able to share their accomplishments with these people, who are probably family members and coworkers. Ok, add the RealID system, and integrate Facebook.
- They don't want to be hassled by spam or trolls. Cue the removal of chatrooms, and let's also make it nearly impossible to add friends if you don't know their e-mail address.
That's pretty much what they want in a nutshell. Now, what do they not care at all about?
- They don't care about improving their performance, so long as they feel good about themselves. Ok, we don't have to waste effort with Online Replays, and we also don't need those Tournaments that WC3 had.
- They already hang out with their RealID friends, so let's not waste any time implementing Clan features. Those are only for the crazies anyway. And while we're at it, their friends are all close by geographically. Let's go ahead and region lock the game, so we don't need to support global networking, or even try to minimize the lag (though there wasn't any left anyway).
If we view it from the businessperson perspective, and focus everything on the target market, you can clearly see how everything in Jinro's post is either a waste of effort, or actively contrary to their goals.
You might ask, why aren't they focusing on us, the competitive gamers? Well, three reasons. First, there are a lot fewer of us. Second, they know that we're guaranteed money anyway. They know that they can mangle SC2 all they want, we'll still buy it because we've been waiting so long, and loved SC1 so much. And last, to them the competitive scene either plays on hacked servers (ICCUP), or is in Korea under kespa. Either way, it brings them no money, and thus are not to be bothered with.
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On May 23 2010 21:06 BillyMole wrote:
Let me refine my above post a moment, because this actually all makes sense if you stuff yourself into a businessperson's head. REMEMBER : most modern businesspeople only care about short term gains, NOT long term stability.
Working from the businessperson's head, everything that the development team does is focused on the target market. Their target market is not us, it is the new generation of gamers (the same ones that bought 10+ million copies of WoW). All their actions are focused on marketing their product to this target market, and thus they have to give them what they want.
What does this target market want?
- They want to feel like they accomplish something when they log in. Gogo league system and achievements.
- They only want to play with the few people they feel comfortable with, and they want to be able to share their accomplishments with these people, who are probably family members and coworkers. Ok, add the RealID system, and integrate Facebook.
- They don't want to be hassled by spam or trolls. Cue the removal of chatrooms, and let's also make it nearly impossible to add friends if you don't know their e-mail address.
That's pretty much what they want in a nutshell. Now, what do they not care at all about?
- They don't care about improving their performance, so long as they feel good about themselves. Ok, we don't have to waste effort with Online Replays, and we also don't need those Tournaments that WC3 had.
- They already hang out with their RealID friends, so let's not waste any time implementing Clan features. Those are only for the crazies anyway. And while we're at it, their friends are all close by geographically. Let's go ahead and region lock the game, so we don't need to support global networking, or even try to minimize the lag (though there wasn't any left anyway).
If we view it from the businessperson perspective, and focus everything on the target market, you can clearly see how everything in Jinro's post is either a waste of effort, or actively contrary to their goals.
You might ask, why aren't they focusing on us, the competitive gamers? Well, three reasons. First, there are a lot fewer of us. Second, they know that we're guaranteed money anyway. They know that they can mangle SC2 all they want, we'll still buy it because we've been waiting so long, and loved SC1 so much. And last, to them the competitive scene either plays on hacked servers (ICCUP), or is in Korea under kespa. Either way, it brings them no money, and thus are not to be bothered with.
I think you pretty much win.
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I recall doing the WotLK Beta and the released product when it came to basic features were EXACTLY THE SAME. I'm not sure why people think that they simply don't have the ability to /w or chat rooms or <every other missing feature> intentionally out of the beta when they pointlessly update the looks of the UI every damn week.
To anyone who has played WoW over the past 2 years it's been more than obvious the direction Blizzard is going, catering to the masses that enjoy MW2 on a CONSOLE as opposed to actual gamers. SC2 being a competitive eSport is barely a thought to them.
It's not just this mediocre beta that has people concerned, it's everything that Blizzard is doing as of late, region locking is an utter joke in a game like Starcraft.
Clearly we need a new ICCUP!
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From very reliable sources inside Blizzard I got to know that they have seminaries where the message is that targeting the hardcore gamers is a complete waste. It's the casuals you want to attract.
Now that makes sense on a noob game like wow but in SC that's plain retarded. They could have build sometihng huge but apparently as we can all see now they only care about the casuals..
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On May 23 2010 21:20 DarkShadowz wrote:
From very reliable sources inside Blizzard I got to know that they have seminaries where the message is that targeting the hardcore gamers is a complete waste. It's the casuals you want to attract.
Now that makes sense on a noob game like wow but in SC that's plain retarded. They could have build sometihng huge but apparently as we can all see now they only care about the casuals..
The fact is that the masses of causal gamers are where the money is at and NOT the hardcore gamers and the two have opposing interests soo its pretty obvious who Blizzard will cater to... (Just look at WoW)
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On May 23 2010 21:06 BillyMole wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Let me refine my above post a moment, because this actually all makes sense if you stuff yourself into a businessperson's head. REMEMBER : most modern businesspeople only care about short term gains, NOT long term stability.
Working from the businessperson's head, everything that the development team does is focused on the target market. Their target market is not us, it is the new generation of gamers (the same ones that bought 10+ million copies of WoW). All their actions are focused on marketing their product to this target market, and thus they have to give them what they want.
What does this target market want?
- They want to feel like they accomplish something when they log in. Gogo league system and achievements.
- They only want to play with the few people they feel comfortable with, and they want to be able to share their accomplishments with these people, who are probably family members and coworkers. Ok, add the RealID system, and integrate Facebook.
- They don't want to be hassled by spam or trolls. Cue the removal of chatrooms, and let's also make it nearly impossible to add friends if you don't know their e-mail address.
That's pretty much what they want in a nutshell. Now, what do they not care at all about?
- They don't care about improving their performance, so long as they feel good about themselves. Ok, we don't have to waste effort with Online Replays, and we also don't need those Tournaments that WC3 had.
- They already hang out with their RealID friends, so let's not waste any time implementing Clan features. Those are only for the crazies anyway. And while we're at it, their friends are all close by geographically. Let's go ahead and region lock the game, so we don't need to support global networking, or even try to minimize the lag (though there wasn't any left anyway).
If we view it from the businessperson perspective, and focus everything on the target market, you can clearly see how everything in Jinro's post is either a waste of effort, or actively contrary to their goals.
You might ask, why aren't they focusing on us, the competitive gamers? Well, three reasons. First, there are a lot fewer of us. Second, they know that we're guaranteed money anyway. They know that they can mangle SC2 all they want, we'll still buy it because we've been waiting so long, and loved SC1 so much. And last, to them the competitive scene either plays on hacked servers (ICCUP), or is in Korea under kespa. Either way, it brings them no money, and thus are not to be bothered with.
I'm not sure all casuals are like that. I'm a semi casual and my friends are all casual. From playing other games we do use chat systems. We did use clan systems even if it was just because we thought it would be funny to all be in a clan. My friends do care about their performance even if they won't put any time into practicing because losing sucks. So they'd be prepared to watch a little bit of a replay every so often and group replays makes it seem more like fun than work. Everyone thinks region locking sucks because we have friends in other regions from MMOs, Online console games like Halo 3, forums and those of us who moved to other regions.
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thats pretty sad, but i have to agree with you 
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On May 23 2010 21:06 BillyMole wrote:
Let me refine my above post a moment, because this actually all makes sense if you stuff yourself into a businessperson's head. REMEMBER : most modern businesspeople only care about short term gains, NOT long term stability.
Working from the businessperson's head, everything that the development team does is focused on the target market. Their target market is not us, it is the new generation of gamers (the same ones that bought 10+ million copies of WoW). All their actions are focused on marketing their product to this target market, and thus they have to give them what they want.
What does this target market want?
- They want to feel like they accomplish something when they log in. Gogo league system and achievements.
- They only want to play with the few people they feel comfortable with, and they want to be able to share their accomplishments with these people, who are probably family members and coworkers. Ok, add the RealID system, and integrate Facebook.
- They don't want to be hassled by spam or trolls. Cue the removal of chatrooms, and let's also make it nearly impossible to add friends if you don't know their e-mail address.
That's pretty much what they want in a nutshell. Now, what do they not care at all about?
- They don't care about improving their performance, so long as they feel good about themselves. Ok, we don't have to waste effort with Online Replays, and we also don't need those Tournaments that WC3 had.
- They already hang out with their RealID friends, so let's not waste any time implementing Clan features. Those are only for the crazies anyway. And while we're at it, their friends are all close by geographically. Let's go ahead and region lock the game, so we don't need to support global networking, or even try to minimize the lag (though there wasn't any left anyway).
If we view it from the businessperson perspective, and focus everything on the target market, you can clearly see how everything in Jinro's post is either a waste of effort, or actively contrary to their goals.
You might ask, why aren't they focusing on us, the competitive gamers? Well, three reasons. First, there are a lot fewer of us. Second, they know that we're guaranteed money anyway. They know that they can mangle SC2 all they want, we'll still buy it because we've been waiting so long, and loved SC1 so much. And last, to them the competitive scene either plays on hacked servers (ICCUP), or is in Korea under kespa. Either way, it brings them no money, and thus are not to be bothered with.
Great post, very good perspective. Makes perfect sense. I am sad to see the direction games have been going. It is almost as if popularity and mass appeal has killed the true spirit of gaming!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 23 2010 21:47 durecell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 21:06 BillyMole wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Let me refine my above post a moment, because this actually all makes sense if you stuff yourself into a businessperson's head. REMEMBER : most modern businesspeople only care about short term gains, NOT long term stability.
Working from the businessperson's head, everything that the development team does is focused on the target market. Their target market is not us, it is the new generation of gamers (the same ones that bought 10+ million copies of WoW). All their actions are focused on marketing their product to this target market, and thus they have to give them what they want.
What does this target market want?
- They want to feel like they accomplish something when they log in. Gogo league system and achievements.
- They only want to play with the few people they feel comfortable with, and they want to be able to share their accomplishments with these people, who are probably family members and coworkers. Ok, add the RealID system, and integrate Facebook.
- They don't want to be hassled by spam or trolls. Cue the removal of chatrooms, and let's also make it nearly impossible to add friends if you don't know their e-mail address.
That's pretty much what they want in a nutshell. Now, what do they not care at all about?
- They don't care about improving their performance, so long as they feel good about themselves. Ok, we don't have to waste effort with Online Replays, and we also don't need those Tournaments that WC3 had.
- They already hang out with their RealID friends, so let's not waste any time implementing Clan features. Those are only for the crazies anyway. And while we're at it, their friends are all close by geographically. Let's go ahead and region lock the game, so we don't need to support global networking, or even try to minimize the lag (though there wasn't any left anyway).
If we view it from the businessperson perspective, and focus everything on the target market, you can clearly see how everything in Jinro's post is either a waste of effort, or actively contrary to their goals.
You might ask, why aren't they focusing on us, the competitive gamers? Well, three reasons. First, there are a lot fewer of us. Second, they know that we're guaranteed money anyway. They know that they can mangle SC2 all they want, we'll still buy it because we've been waiting so long, and loved SC1 so much. And last, to them the competitive scene either plays on hacked servers (ICCUP), or is in Korea under kespa. Either way, it brings them no money, and thus are not to be bothered with. I'm not sure all casuals are like that. I'm a semi casual and my friends are all casual. From playing other games we do use chat systems. We did use clan systems even if it was just because we thought it would be funny to all be in a clan. My friends do care about their performance even if they won't put any time into practicing because losing sucks. So they'd be prepared to watch a little bit of a replay every so often and group replays makes it seem more like fun than work. Everyone thinks region locking sucks because we have friends in other regions from MMOs, Online console games like Halo 3, forums and those of us who moved to other regions.
Yeah, I agree, I think casuals are a bit underestimated here... I mean, I liked chat channels right from when I first started playing and had never played an RTS online before 
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They created a console like experience that they can make money off. I'm so disappointed in 2.0 as it is right now. From how it looks to how it runs and how we still don't know what it will even look like as a finished product.
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Dustin Browder isn't saying that people who want LAN are evil butterfly killers, blizzard is just trying to prevent smurfing and from the context their way of doing that is making one ID and one server only for your game.
Oh and all the stuff people want are the easy fixes, building a whole new online network from the ground up takes a lot of time and effort, adding a chat room takes a day.
Another day of doom and gloom and TL.net, is SC2 officially the worst thing ever yet?
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I really think that they are currently not developing the battle.net 2.0 as a platform, but rather as an architecture that will be updated in the future to something that will, hopefully, be something awesome.
that being said, if i don't get basic functionality out of bnet 2.0, and with basic I mean things like chat rooms, normal friend lists, chat shortcut commands and stuff like that, I'm simply not buying the game.
I honestly believe that in the event the game comes out with bnet 2.0 in its current state it will be ragehacked in the matter of days and i will play it on pirate servers anyway.
this looks like it's gona be the first game by blizz in 20 years that i'm not gonna buy.
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why are big e-sports organizations not taking actions against blizzard for blatantly ignoring their communities? i think we all got through last year without sc2 and not playing sc2 wouldnt be a big loss for most of us, in the state it is now.
what if gosugamers, teamliquid.net, all the progaming teams posted articles stating how bad blizzard is acting, the fact they are only targeting casual gamers with fucking xbox live programmers.
and focusing casuals with an RTS is just completly stupid, you just cant be a casual when you play an RTS, because it gives you no pleasure to play, you dont feel any good when you play so sloppy etc.
if blizzard doesnt care about hardcore gamers and esports organizations, its not a fatality, we can show them that if they dont need us, we dont need them either.
and they can have regional finals with joethekiller vs zergundertakerFR23 both having 23 apm because they are checking their facebooks friends pictures during the games.
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On May 23 2010 22:04 leser wrote:
this looks like it's gona be the first game by blizz in 20 years that i'm not gonna buy.
are you serious? it's beta. it went 12 patches functioning like a pretty much finished game. be glad they encountered this now, in beta, and not at release. this board is so freaking emo sometimes.
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On May 23 2010 22:03 Fizban140 wrote:
I really have to question FrozenArbiters reading comprehension, pulling quotes and then divining out some meaning that was never there.
Dustin Browder isn't saying that people who want LAN are evil butterfly killers, blizzard is just trying to prevent smurfing and from the context their way of doing that is making one ID and one server only for your game.
Oh and all the stuff people want are the easy fixes, building a whole new online network from the ground up takes a lot of time and effort, adding a chat room takes a day.
Another day of doom and gloom and TL.net, is SC2 officially the worst thing ever yet?
Ah the classic "Blizzard knows best" blind fan post.
Well you believe that all you want but everything they've done during this beta and indeed ever since SC:BW says otherwise really.
Dustin's answer was indeed talking about removing smurfing but what does that have to do with LAN functionality? He's clearly brushing past the real question cause they don't have a good answer. They want to avoid piracy obviously and thats fine but they could make a work around to that and still have LAN (which is VITAL for live tournaments...) but they just ignore it cause they don't care about anything as competetive as that.
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On May 23 2010 22:08 Doc Daneeka wrote:
are you serious? it's beta. it went 12 patches functioning like a pretty much finished game. be glad they encountered this now, in beta, and not at release. this board is so freaking emo sometimes.
so i'm emo if i don't like the current state of bnet and i'm not gonna buy the game because i don't like what they did with the community system?
wow, your view on emo is pretty distorted.
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On May 23 2010 08:03 Renaissance wrote:
The poll speaks for itself.
Yet most of the 90% will be buying the game. And that's what bothers me most, because that's why we will never get games which are made for players rather than shareholders again.
Great OP and overall thread with lots of great posts. Too bad it isn't gonna change anything.
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EPT
