EPTi figured people would be micro'ing ultras to only attack marauders/armored units so the splash damage would be huge (splash from a marauder being attacked would probably be more than the marine directly being hit) i guess this is why they actually have it reduced to 33% anyway. but just seems more boring
Ultralisk attack AoE - Page 2
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
i figured people would be micro'ing ultras to only attack marauders/armored units so the splash damage would be huge (splash from a marauder being attacked would probably be more than the marine directly being hit) i guess this is why they actually have it reduced to 33% anyway. but just seems more boring | ||
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fffxc2
United States8 Posts
edit: Before the change number of units dmg to primary dmg to secondaries total dmg 1 25 25*0 25 2 25 25*1 50 3 25 25*2 75 4 25 25*3 100 5 25 25*4 125 6 25 25*5 150 Damage changed from 25 to 15 (+25 Armored). +Stealth 100%->33% splash and 1->2 radius change - This was changed in the editor (just tested), remains to be seen for normal play After the change Before the change number of units dmg to primary dmg to secondaries total dmg 1 40 40*.333=13.3*0 40 2 40 13.3*1 53.3 3 40 13.3*2 66.6 4 40 13.3*3 79.9 5 40 13.3*4 93.2 6 40 13.3*5 106.5 So for anything more than 2 units that you are hitting (1+1 splashed) this is a dps nerf. And this is assuming it is against armored, against light the numbers are going to be even worse (a quick run is showing that it is a flat out nerf in all cases 25+25x=5x+15 has a solution of x=-1/2). | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
If the terran ball is bunched up and ultras (by some magic) are in it's face, it could still be taking a similar amount of damage, if not more. | ||
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fffxc2
United States8 Posts
On May 22 2010 10:03 phyvo wrote: The one thing you're missing is that in 13 it covers more area so you really shouldn't be comparing equal numbers of targets vs equal numbers of targets. Do we have exact numbers of what the area changed from -> to? Math with those numbers if I didn't fail: (Assuming 9 in radius of 1 gives you 225 dmg total. 225-40=185 (damage divided by the rest to break even) 185/13.3=13.9 (damaged needed to break even divided by the new splash damage)) It does mean that for smaller numbers that still fit in the radius 1 (as in the table I made) it is still a dps nerf, but for larger numbers it is most likely a buff. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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roark
United States187 Posts
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
edit ok i saw the other post editedt i think they changed it because it was messed up anyway (like HSM or PF), i mean a AoE attack that does deal full damage Oo seriously cant be and must be reduced by logic (even if it wasnt OP or something) | ||
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Rictusjames
United States11 Posts
The only concrete buff I'm seeing is that it kills single armored units like Tanks and Thors better than before -- if it can reach them in the first place with it's reduced health. So what I'm wondering is, why does the Ultra have cleave at all? It's better than not having cleave, sure, but it doesn't seem to mesh with the Ultra's role at all anymore. If it's best at killing Thors and Tanks, give it something that lets it reach the Thors and Tanks reliably, and remove cleave? | ||
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
I'm just gonna mass up MM and kill people under 5 minutes. Plan B, SIEGE MODE lololol | ||
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baeracaed
United States604 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On May 22 2010 10:20 AmstAff wrote: why is it a nerf, if the AoE is 2 times bigger now? I don't necessarily think it is a nerf. We have lower DPS over a larger area now. It could very well be a buff. We need objective calculations that take into account how many units fit into this new AOE size and if the larger aoe with less damage does in fact deal less, or more overall DPS. One thing is for sure, the ultralisk got a huge buff against large armored units. | ||
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Rictusjames
United States11 Posts
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fffxc2
United States8 Posts
On May 22 2010 10:25 Wr3k wrote: I don't necessarily think it is a nerf. We have lower DPS over a larger area now. It could very well be a buff. We need objective calculations that take into account how many units fit into this new AOE size and if the larger aoe with less damage does in fact deal less, or more overall DPS. One thing is for sure, the ultralisk got a huge buff against large armored units. I don't think you can call it a huge buff with the 25% reduction in hp. Though if it can actually engage larger balls is definitely a buff. edit: also, as someone noticed on the first page, the damage that is splashed is not calculated by the damage dealt to the primary target, it is instead calculated by each unit taking damage individually, so against light units this probably does makes the damage only break even if that. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
It does worse vs marines and meh-ish vs hellions. Outside of that the DPS is just a significant buff just because you can hit 4 times the number of units you could hit before, and when there are fewer units that extra 15 damage to the initial target makes a bigger difference. Basically, the old ultra was better vs marines, hellions, 3 marauders, and 3 vikings. The new ultra is better vs everything else. Ultras should do about 2.5 X as much damage vs marauder balls, tank balls, thor balls, 2 X damage vs viking balls, 0.75 X damage vs marine balls. I kinda only approximated the number of possible units that could fit into the area of effect, but the way I approximated it should only have helped the old ultralisk compared to the new one I believe. I kinda don't have to go and find some place to upload the spreadsheet on this, so... sorry. I guess if someone wants to they can just verify this themselves. Finally, all this was based on the assumption that the old ultra had AoE of 1. | ||
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Occas
Australia18 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On May 22 2010 10:20 AmstAff wrote: why is it a nerf, if the AoE is 2 times bigger now? edit ok i saw the other post editedt i think they changed it because it was messed up anyway (like HSM or PF), i mean a AoE attack that does deal full damage Oo seriously cant be and must be reduced by logic (even if it wasnt OP or something) Storm?  Blizzard just hates ultralisks.  | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Blizzard doesn't hate ultralisks. As I pointed out (by calculation), their DPS has been buffed vs everything except hellions and marines. For armored units there isn't really a situation where you'd want the old ultralisk instead of the new ultralisk, at least ZvT in terms of DPS. Still, the real weird thing was the HP nerf. Maybe Blizzard is more like love/hate with ultras... | ||
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DaggerRage
United States30 Posts
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
Me and my friend ran simulations against 80 supply MMM ball (1/1 ratio marine marauder + 6 medivacs), followed by a MM ball (marauder 6 medivacs). A trigger for stim was implemented. The only problem is we couldn't find a way to cause focus firing. Although that problem isn't as major in the choke tests because only 2 units were available for choosing at a time. The following were tested. Patch 13 ultras- 6 ultras, rest in hydra 7 ultras, rest in hydra 8 ultras, rest in hydra all of the above were tested with open field and choke point (able to fit 2-3 ultras). Patch 12 ultras (with 450 hp)- 6 ultras, rest in hydra 7 ultras, rest in hydra 8 ultras, rest in hydra all of the above were tested with open field and choke point (able to fit 2-3 ultras). Custom ultras (1 AoE, 100% cleave, 15+25 dmg) 6 ultras, rest in hydra 7 ultras, rest in hydra 8 ultras, rest in hydra all of the above were tested with open field and choke point (able to fit 2-3 ultras). For ultras, the custom ultra yielded the best results, the patch 12 ultras being second (not far behind), and the patch 13 ultras being the worst (most of the time having none left alive). For army composition, a 10-12 supply of enemy to 1 ultra ratio appears to be the most efficient. In this case, 7 ultras yielded the best efficiency (least units lost and least amount of resource difference between the 2 armies). This was true for all ultra cases. Basically, while more damage is being dealt, things are dying slower, so ultras (along with their 450 hp) are actually not killing things as fast over the course of a fight. It's much better to kill 2 small groups of units quickly then to kill 1 group of units slowly. Also, the overall effect of frenzy was marginal due to the AoE change. 125% of 33% is not much. It's a much better 25 energy skill for the infestor, but you would never build infestors just for frenzy. The gas is better spent elsewhere, and frenzy is only after you have used all the NP/FG that is necessary, and happen to have energy left. | ||
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