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On May 23 2010 02:08 sylverfyre wrote:
Are we sure that the aoe size actaully increased? It looks to me like it's another instance of the broad change where AoE damage now radiates from the target of the initial attack rather than from the attack animation spot.
I looked around in the MPQs for a while and found the following:
Before version 15097 the AoE was a circle with radius 1.5.
From version 15097 to version 15392 it was changed to what i believe is a semicircle with radius 2, centred at the front of the ultra. That's my interpretation of
+ Show Spoiler +- <CEffectEnumArea id="UltraliskSearch">
<EditorCategories value="Race:Zerg" />
<SearchFilters value="Ground;Player,Ally,Neutral,Stasis,Dead,Hidden,Invulnerable" />
<AreaArray Arc="180" Radius="2" Effect="UltraliskCleave" />
<SearchFlags index="CallForHelp" value="1" />
<SearchFlags index="ExtendByUnitRadius" value="1" />
<SearchFlags index="SameCliff" value="1" />
<ExcludeArray Effect="UltraliskSet" Value="Target" />
<ImpactLocation Value="SourceUnit" />
</CEffectEnumArea>
- <CEffectDamage id="UltraliskCleave" parent="DU_WEAP">
<EditorCategories value="Race:Zerg" />
<Amount value="18" />
<Death value="Eviscerate" />
<Kind value="Splash" />
</CEffectDamage>
- <CEffectSet id="UltraliskSet">
<EditorCategories value="Race:Zerg" />
<EffectArray value="UltraliskCleave" />
<EffectArray value="UltraliskSearch" />
</CEffectSet> UltraliskSet was the effect used by the ultras main weapon
Finally in version 15449 they changed the AoE to a circle with radius 2 and midpoint in the target unit.
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On May 23 2010 02:08 sylverfyre wrote:
Are we sure that the aoe size actaully increased? It looks to me like it's another instance of the broad change where AoE damage now radiates from the target of the initial attack rather than from the attack animation spot.
Before patch
After patch
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UIu8f.jpg)
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On May 23 2010 06:26 Kupo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 02:08 sylverfyre wrote:
Are we sure that the aoe size actaully increased? It looks to me like it's another instance of the broad change where AoE damage now radiates from the target of the initial attack rather than from the attack animation spot. I looked around in the MPQs for a while and found the following: Before version 15097 the AoE was a circle with radius 1.5. From version 15097 to version 15392 it was changed to what i believe is a semicircle with radius 2, centred at the front of the ultra. That's my interpretation of + Show Spoiler +Finally in version 15449 they changed the AoE to a circle with radius 2 and midpoint in the target unit.
Actually I have technically different old values. These would be from patch 2, which i guess is version 14133:
+ Show Spoiler +
<CEffectEnumArea id="CleaveSearch">
<EditorCategories value="Race:Zerg"/>
<SearchFilters value="Ground;Player,Ally,Neutral,Stasis,Dead,Hidden,Invulnerable"/>
<AreaArray Arc="180" Radius="2" Effect="UltraliskCleaveLarge"/>
<SearchFlags index="CallForHelp" value="1"/>
<SearchFlags index="ExtendByUnitRadius" value="1"/>
<SearchFlags index="SameCliff" value="1"/>
<ExcludeArray Effect="Ultralisk" Value="Target"/>
<ValidatorArray value="CleaveResearched"/>
<ImpactLocation Value="SourceUnit"/>
</CEffectEnumArea>
<CEffectDamage id="UltraliskCleave">
<EditorCategories value="Race:Zerg"/>
<SearchFilters value="Ground;Self,Player,Ally,Neutral,Missile,Destructible,Stasis,Dead,Hidden,Invulnerable"/>
<MaxCount value="3"/>
<LaunchLocation Value="CasterUnit"/>
<ImpactLocation Value="TargetUnit"/>
<ImpactUnitValidator value="Error"/>
<!-- Don't damage the impact unit. -->
<ExcludeArray Value="Target"/>
<TargetSorts RequestCount="3">
<SortArray value="TSMarker"/>
<SortArray value="TSDistance"/>
</TargetSorts>
<AreaArray Radius="1.5" Fraction="1"/>
<Amount value="18"/>
<Death value="Eviscerate"/>
<ValidatorArray value="CleaveResearched"/>
<ArmorReduction value="1"/>
<Kind value="Splash"/>
As you can see, there is an area effect called cleavesearch, which was probably always 180°, and also is a radius of 2. The actual damage effect though only has a radius of 1.5. I'm thinking this discrepancy might be because cleavesearch is centered on the ultralisk and ultraliskcleave is based off the impact location (which was in front of the unit, and is now maybe in the center of the unit? patches notes didn't mention a change for the ultralisk, but they might have change the mechanic for all splash instead of just unit-based).
I think based off the current information, we can say that the cleave damage is 67% less obviously, but the screenshot indicates something else, very likely the combination of 0.5 radius increased AoE, as well as possibly the splash starting from the center.
Lastly though, or on another topic: I thought Ultralisk's cleave attack only affected 3 other units, not all units in the AoE due to the <MaxCount value="3"/> and <TargetSorts RequestCount="3">.
Based off those screenshots, it looks like the attack affects an infinite number of units in the area of effect, is this possibly a bug or what?
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The more I look at the MPQs, the more confused I become.
The first ultra version (before 15097) looks like your copy. The strange thing is that if you look at WeaponData.xml, it seems like it only uses UltraliskU, which looks like a single target attack to me. Then there is the CleaveSearch-thing with the validator CleaveResearched that makes me believe it's set up for a resarchable AoE but I haven't found where it actually makes use of the cleaves.
Edit: With some more thinking, I assume it uses the effect with the same name as the weapon if it doesn't give a new "Effect value". Because of this I believe it never uses UltraliskCleave: Instead it would then use CleaveSearch to determine the AoE. Which would imply radius 2 since the first day of beta.
Then there is the (15097-15392)-versions where they use UltraliskSet as the effect, which involves both UltraliskCleave and UltraliskSearch. The UltraliskCleave is however changed so that it no longer contains any information about the area.
Finally in the last patch they changed the effect to UltraliskCleave and gave it all the AoE-information.
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Imho i feel that before patch was the better alternative. xD
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so basically the cleave got bigger but it does less damage to the targets it cleaves?
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On May 23 2010 08:47 arb wrote:
so basically the cleave got bigger but it does less damage to the targets it cleaves?
Yup, it basically made ultras way better single target vs armored and as far as total damage output goes I figure its roughly the same not including frenzy. I honestly think this is an improvement, because in combination with effects like fungal and baneling explosions ultras will be way more efficient at cleaning up large groups of units.
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overall, we can decide that if ANYTHING, the ultra is in fact not significantly better the in the previous patch, where it was never a viable option to be used in a fight.
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On May 23 2010 09:00 Shiladie wrote:
overall, we can decide that is ANYTHING, the ultra is in fact not significantly better the in the previous patch, where it was never a viable option to be used in a fight.
honestly i think if they put ultra hp back to 600 and let it walk over units or hell, kept it at 450 but made it unarmored + able to walk over units it'd be worthy of being used.
sadly i dont think blizz will ever listen
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On May 23 2010 09:05 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 09:00 Shiladie wrote:
overall, we can decide that is ANYTHING, the ultra is in fact not significantly better the in the previous patch, where it was never a viable option to be used in a fight. honestly i think if they put ultra hp back to 600 and let it walk over units or hell, kept it at 450 but made it unarmored + able to walk over units it'd be worthy of being used. sadly i dont think blizz will ever listen
So basically, you want a super-unit you can a-move.
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On May 23 2010 09:31 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 09:05 arb wrote:On May 23 2010 09:00 Shiladie wrote:
overall, we can decide that is ANYTHING, the ultra is in fact not significantly better the in the previous patch, where it was never a viable option to be used in a fight. honestly i think if they put ultra hp back to 600 and let it walk over units or hell, kept it at 450 but made it unarmored + able to walk over units it'd be worthy of being used. sadly i dont think blizz will ever listen So basically, you want a super-unit you can a-move.
Alternatively you can keep at as a 450 hp armored unit which gets raped by everything because ti all has +armored damage, gets stuck behind zerglings who are smaller than it anyway and is generally useless besides spending money.
So you decide? In terms of super units Protoss has the Colossus / Terran the Marauder // and zerg has ???
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I'd love to see more use for the Ultralisk... it's still way early to call the frenzy thing good or bad. But walking over *friendly* units doesn't sound broken, so I'm not sure why that isn't put back in for real testing. Maybe copious amounts of zergling burrow to let your Ultra walk by is in order... sounds like the Ultra will need his HP back up there if he's tanking all the dmg again.
I still miss dark swarm, but it'd never fit in a game without spidermines, etc.
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seems like blizz wants ultras more as damage dealers, while the players want ultras more as tanks. Wonder who's version ultras will end up being....
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simple mathematics.... third of the damage with twice the aoe.... multiply... voila, 2/3 a nerf.
the only way it could be a buff is if the ultra is fighting against large size units like thors and ultra where they couldnt cluster into a radius of 1 but can cluster in a radius of 2. but correct me if i'm wrong, ultras and thors are larger than radius 2? not absolutely positive though.
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On May 23 2010 15:40 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
simple mathematics.... third of the damage with twice the aoe.... multiply... voila, 2/3 a nerf.
the only way it could be a buff is if the ultra is fighting against large size units like thors and ultra where they couldnt cluster into a radius of 1 but can cluster in a radius of 2. but correct me if i'm wrong, ultras and thors are larger than radius 2? not absolutely positive though.
except Area is squared so it is x4 or 4/3 :D
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On May 23 2010 15:16 afirlortwo wrote:
seems like blizz wants ultras more as damage dealers, while the players want ultras more as tanks. Wonder who's version ultras will end up being....
if they are going to be damage dealers, they need to be cheaper
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On May 23 2010 15:54 FragKrag wrote:
except Area is squared so it is x4 or 4/3 :D
twice AOE or twice the RADIUS?
i thought it was AOE o_o
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from that image it seems like they doubled the radius?
I'm not sure though
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On May 23 2010 16:11 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 15:54 FragKrag wrote:
except Area is squared so it is x4 or 4/3 :D twice AOE or twice the RADIUS? i thought it was AOE o_o
for changing AoE they always change the radius.
1,5² * 3,14159265 = 7,0685834705770347865409476123789
2² * 3,14159265 = 12,566370614359172953850573533118
so 7 AoE vs 12,5 AoE seems like a good deal.
edit
if the old Radius was 1
1² * 3,14159265 = 3,14159265
even better deal =)
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On May 23 2010 16:11 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 15:54 FragKrag wrote:
except Area is squared so it is x4 or 4/3 :D twice AOE or twice the RADIUS? i thought it was AOE o_o
Radius changed from 1.5 to 2, which means AOE changed from 2.25pi to 4pi.
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