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Patch 11 - Official Notes + Discussion - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Therapist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States97 Posts
May 07 2010 16:27 GMT
#761
First off I play zerg in plat around 1700-1800, I know this post is going to sound biased but honestly I have agreed with all the nerfs to zerg so far. I was downloading this patch and I was shocked at how ridiculous some of the changes looked. I was frustrated so I tested it with a friend.
Phoenix - Can now attack while moving.
Blizzard -
Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks

I destroyed his muta with a few clicks ... this patch has to be some kind of joke. I remember in sc1 a vulture could attack while moving like this, but you would have to manually stop attack and keep going ,,, this requires no micro. So yes corrupters can handle the phoenixes with the new changes, but. the old corruption on the corrupter was replaced with

Corruption ability redesigned:
-Single target.
-Increases damage taken by 20%.
-Lasts 30 seconds.
-Costs 100 energy.
-Range 6.
-Cannot target structures.

I don't see why the old corruption was taken out, I found it very useful for cannons and stopping building production, this new corruption is not effective at all to increase damage taken on invidivdual units especially at 100 energy. I also find it weird how it lasts so long on a unit, like a unit is going to survive that for 30 sec? This just sounds like an ability a group of people who play world of warcraft would use to kill a dragon or something. Compared to corruption, The phoenix's beam ability completely disables a unit, costs 50 energy and allows it to do some damage.
Before this patch many toss players were developing a very strong phoenix strategy against zerg, Nony had really effective phoenix play from what I've seen. This patch just ruined ZvP completly. Playing against my friend's zerg, I was able to fly in and out of his base killing his queen and ovies on the way out. He was holding me off very well with hydra later as any good player would, but it didn't matter because even as I retreated I was doing so much damage to his economy by sniping ovies/queens/drones with ease with ridicules mobility. I was even able to snipe 3-4 lifted hydra as I retreated at times. I don't know what blizzard's thinking, an air unit can harass from so many different angles.. It felt so imbalanced and I am not even a toss player.
Blizzard -
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.

So they wanted to protect the Ultralisk? A tier 3 unit that will come out way after the infester? Even in ZvT if the terran goes for a thor drop, the infestor still comes a little bit after the thor, after this change it will be very hard to defend with NP.
Blizzard -
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
he
This change really makes static defense useless against any type of early harassment. I always have to reposition my spine crawlers to adjust to harassment and even then ... some good players react and kill it before I can root it. 6 seconds was very fair. After this patch you are just giving your opponent free spine crawlers if you decide to reposition. Also, they never explained why they nerfed spores... they are now useless to defend against void rays/banshees.

Lollersauce
Profile Joined April 2010
United States357 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 16:40:57
May 07 2010 16:39 GMT
#762
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
May 07 2010 16:46 GMT
#763
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
HeyheyLBJ
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden160 Posts
May 07 2010 16:51 GMT
#764
On May 08 2010 01:46 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".


Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
Powda
Profile Joined February 2010
United States116 Posts
May 07 2010 16:52 GMT
#765
As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.

Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.
1a2a3a4a
Koffiegast
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands346 Posts
May 07 2010 16:53 GMT
#766
On May 08 2010 01:46 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".


Toss got something that hits air and ground and has detection. Spine crawlers dont have detection and cant hit air. Furthermore, the only antiair Z has (and not some lame queen) is the hydra or the spire, both requiring a lot of time to make, while terran has it as t1 unit and toss t1.5 if I say it correctly. Terran got an anti air turret that actually hits for a ton of dmg and also has detection. Did I mention that the spine crawler is the only Z "unit" that actually has +bonus dmg on armored? So do marauder, immortal and stalker. Imo, I rather want them static and be on the same lvl terran/toss got than their current status.
Wut
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 07 2010 16:54 GMT
#767
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote:
As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.

Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.


AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
May 07 2010 16:55 GMT
#768
Just occurred to me, have they fixed the bug where a Raven's PDD pointlessly shoot at roach acid?

Stuck at work and can't check this out but if anyone knows if this has been addressed I would love to hear it because now curiosity is scratching at my brain.
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
May 07 2010 16:56 GMT
#769
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


That's just dumb, zerg needs mobility on their static defense, especially on maps like blistering sand.
Gnaix
Profile Joined February 2009
United States438 Posts
May 07 2010 16:56 GMT
#770
On May 08 2010 01:46 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".

Everyone elses defence doesn't cost a drone to build.
one thing that sc2 has over bw is the fact that I can actually manage my hotkeys
StifSokSamurai
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States120 Posts
May 07 2010 16:56 GMT
#771
On May 07 2010 21:06 LuDwig- wrote:


Show nested quote +
On May 07 2010 20:50 StifSokSamurai wrote:
I was playing a game earlier and noticed that the neural parasite ability is no longer channeled! The only way now it seems to break NP is to kill the infestor, the mind controled unit or move the controled unit outside of the spell range of the infestor which is now rendered imobile during the duration of the controled units limited life. (If this has already be discussed then sorry for missing it but I did a bit of looking and couldn't find any word on it.)


it was in this way also before the patch -.-


Oh snap my bad
Powda
Profile Joined February 2010
United States116 Posts
May 07 2010 16:58 GMT
#772
On May 08 2010 01:54 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote:
As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.

Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.


AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.


You have to be kidding.

Thors got buffed against mutas, hellions got buffed in both speed and range. Thor/hellion was the number 1 strat, platinum level, vs zerg.

Phoenix was already difficult to deal with when mixed with VR and a player who abuses the fact the VR doesn't reset on target change. Now I can easily cite 10 times the amount of mutas vs Phoenix around the map.

Parasite takes longer to get than a it takes a toss to have a VR in your base, which makes no sense as blizzard claims this was to help against VR rushes...

Corruptors got a nice speed boost, but corruption was an extremely nice spell.

As for your "cute spells to win" spin.....Spells are and always have been a HUGE part of starcraft, I just have no other comment for that.
1a2a3a4a
Orpheus
Profile Joined April 2010
United States35 Posts
May 07 2010 17:00 GMT
#773
On May 08 2010 01:27 Therapist wrote:
First off I play zerg in plat around 1700-1800, I know this post is going to sound biased but honestly I have agreed with all the nerfs to zerg so far. I was downloading this patch and I was shocked at how ridiculous some of the changes looked. I was frustrated so I tested it with a friend.
Phoenix - Can now attack while moving.
Blizzard -
Show nested quote +
Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks

I destroyed his muta with a few clicks ... this patch has to be some kind of joke. I remember in sc1 a vulture could attack while moving like this, but you would have to manually stop attack and keep going ,,, this requires no micro. So yes corrupters can handle the phoenixes with the new changes, but. the old corruption on the corrupter was replaced with
Show nested quote +

Corruption ability redesigned:
-Single target.
-Increases damage taken by 20%.
-Lasts 30 seconds.
-Costs 100 energy.
-Range 6.
-Cannot target structures.

I don't see why the old corruption was taken out, I found it very useful for cannons and stopping building production, this new corruption is not effective at all to increase damage taken on invidivdual units especially at 100 energy. I also find it weird how it lasts so long on a unit, like a unit is going to survive that for 30 sec? This just sounds like an ability a group of people who play world of warcraft would use to kill a dragon or something. Compared to corruption, The phoenix's beam ability completely disables a unit, costs 50 energy and allows it to do some damage.
Before this patch many toss players were developing a very strong phoenix strategy against zerg, Nony had really effective phoenix play from what I've seen. This patch just ruined ZvP completly. Playing against my friend's zerg, I was able to fly in and out of his base killing his queen and ovies on the way out. He was holding me off very well with hydra later as any good player would, but it didn't matter because even as I retreated I was doing so much damage to his economy by sniping ovies/queens/drones with ease with ridicules mobility. I was even able to snipe 3-4 lifted hydra as I retreated at times. I don't know what blizzard's thinking, an air unit can harass from so many different angles.. It felt so imbalanced and I am not even a toss player.
Blizzard -
Show nested quote +
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.

So they wanted to protect the Ultralisk? A tier 3 unit that will come out way after the infester? Even in ZvT if the terran goes for a thor drop, the infestor still comes a little bit after the thor, after this change it will be very hard to defend with NP.
Blizzard -
Show nested quote +
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
he
This change really makes static defense useless against any type of early harassment. I always have to reposition my spine crawlers to adjust to harassment and even then ... some good players react and kill it before I can root it. 6 seconds was very fair. After this patch you are just giving your opponent free spine crawlers if you decide to reposition. Also, they never explained why they nerfed spores... they are now useless to defend against void rays/banshees.



I am in your division with similar ratings (14xx) before I stopped playing due to finals.
I completely agree with you. I said basically the same things as you did about 20 pages back... in nerd rage form lol.
It begins...
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
May 07 2010 17:01 GMT
#774
thors r alot better now imo
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
NightOfTheDead
Profile Joined August 2009
Lithuania1711 Posts
May 07 2010 17:02 GMT
#775
Give the ultralisk ability

Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.

That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
May 07 2010 17:03 GMT
#776
On May 08 2010 01:51 HeyheyLBJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:46 Ghostcom wrote:
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote:
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now.
Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.


Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".


Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.

Not really true.
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
May 07 2010 17:05 GMT
#777
On May 08 2010 02:02 NightOfTheDead wrote:
Give the ultralisk ability

Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.

That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05

the reason why ultralisks r bad is not because of their stats
its because they r huge and not many of them can attack at once. their size can be abused so hard
second reason is that force field makes melee units useless
3rd reason is because marauder can kite them and they will never reach terran
and last reason is that zergs melee dmg tech tree is worse than the range tech tree because lings r pretty lame

best ultra buff right now would be to nerf sentry (check), thor nerf (check), only zergling buff and ultralisk resize is left
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Bensio
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom621 Posts
May 07 2010 17:07 GMT
#778
On May 08 2010 02:02 NightOfTheDead wrote:
Give the ultralisk ability

Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.

That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05


I smell warcraft

And the corruptor now is a warcraft unit lol
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
May 07 2010 17:09 GMT
#779
On May 08 2010 01:58 Powda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2010 01:54 Slayer91 wrote:
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote:
As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.

Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.


AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.


You have to be kidding.

Thors got buffed against mutas, hellions got buffed in both speed and range. Thor/hellion was the number 1 strat, platinum level, vs zerg.

Phoenix was already difficult to deal with when mixed with VR and a player who abuses the fact the VR doesn't reset on target change. Now I can easily cite 10 times the amount of mutas vs Phoenix around the map.

Parasite takes longer to get than a it takes a toss to have a VR in your base, which makes no sense as blizzard claims this was to help against VR rushes...

Corruptors got a nice speed boost, but corruption was an extremely nice spell.

As for your "cute spells to win" spin.....Spells are and always have been a HUGE part of starcraft, I just have no other comment for that.


I don't see anything in the notes about hellion speed (I'm assuming movement speed). The Thors GTA dmg stayed the same (8+4 to 6+6 = still 12 dmg to light)...
With no power comes no responsibility?
Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
May 07 2010 17:31 GMT
#780
can any1 confirm/deny if carriers can be micro'd now? ie they dont pull back every interceptor when you tell them to edge away from something?
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