StarCraft II Beta – Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250)
The latest patch notes can always be found on the StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum.
Balance Changes
TERRAN Battlecruiser -The build time has been decreased from 110 to 90.
Fusion Core -The build time has been decreased from 80 to 65.
Hellion -The range has been increased from 5 to 6.
Planetary Fortress -The splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
Raven -Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. -Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. -Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.
Siege Tank -Life increased from 150 to 160. -Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
Thor -Ground damage decreased from 45 to 30. -Ground rate of fire improved from 1.93 to 1.28. -Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light). -250mm Strike Cannons are now an upgrade at the Factory Tech Lab. -250mm Strike Cannons research now costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. -250mm Strike Cannons energy cost increased from 100 to 150. -Anti-Air splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
PROTOSS Archon -The splash radius has been increased from 0.8 to 1. -Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
Colossus -The damage has been decreased from 20 to 15. -The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65.
Phoenix -Can now attack while moving.
Sentry -The damage has been decreased from 8 to 6.
ZERG Brood Lord -Life has been decreased from 275 to 225. -Armor has been decreased from 2 to 1.
Corruptor -Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive). -Corruptor speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531 -Corruption ability redesigned: -Single target. -Increases damage taken by 20%. -Lasts 30 seconds. -Costs 100 energy. -Range 6. -Cannot target structures.
Infestor -Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit. -Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. -Neural Parasite can now target Air units. -Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
Spine Crawler -The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.
Spore Crawler -The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.
Ultralisk -Damage has been increased from 18 to 25.
Hotkey Changes
General -In order to resolve a conflict with building multiple Forges with the Shift Key we have made the following changes: -Changed Center Camera from Shift+F to Ctrl+F.
Standard -To prevent the accidental research of Ventral Sacs when trying to train an Overlord with no Larva available, the hotkey has been changed from V to E. -View Own Health Bars functionality added to the Backslash key
Standard for Lefties -Due to a conflict with research Banshee Cloak, research Seeker Missile has been changed from L to K. -To correct a conflict with the Attack command on Planetary Fortress, train SCV has been changed from K to J. -In order to prevent the accidental training of Zerglings when using the Select Larva hotkey,train Zergling has been changed from L to J. -To prevent the accidental training of a Queen, train Ultralisk has been changed from U to T. -To prevent the accidental research of Pneumatized Carapace when trying to train a corruptor with -no Larva available, research Pneumatized Carapace has been changed from P to C. -View All Status Bars has been changed from Q to the Alt key. -View own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Q key.
Grid for Lefties -Attack Move and all other buttons in the 0,4 position should now function correctly. -View Own Status Bars functionality added to Q. -View Enemy Status Bars moved to W. -View Ally Status Bars moved to E.
Classic -Changed build Nydus Canal from P to N. -Changed Place Nydus Canal ability from P to N. -Terran Infantry Weapon researches have been changed from E to W. -Terran Vehicle Weapon researches have been changed from E to W. -Train Thor hotkey has been changed from O to G. -Train Viking hotkey has been changed from Y to W. -View Own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Backslash key.
Icon Position Changes
To put all race gas extractors in the same icon position, the positions of the Supply Depot/Refinery and Pylon/Assimilator have been swapped.
In order to make transforming multiple Gateways easier for players using Grid key sets, Transform to Gateway has been moved to a separate icon position (2,1).
Bug Fixes
Corrected an issue that was causing the Polish language client to crash when receiving the "player is no longer being revealed” message.
Corrected incorrect battle.net links on multiple language clients pages.
Corrected an issue where the Zealot was using an US English voice over in the Korean language client.
Corrected an issue where a player is unable to build any structures that require pylon power when their protoss ally leaves.
Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.
Corrected an issue where the Creep Tumor targeting circle was visible to opponents through Fog of War.
Corrected an issue in which selecting a Starport under construction and a completed Starport would display the select builder command in the Viking slot.
only positive thing is fire on the move for Phoenix, but why only for phoenix and not all the other Air-Units and stuff like Hellions? I mean - it's possible as we see now, so why not for every Unit?
Siege Tank Life increased from 150 to 160. Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
With the buff to Ultras and the nerf to Broodlords, will we see Ultralisk use in late game now?
Can't wait to see some Phoenix usage with this patch. I can only guess that they added to just the phoenix now because they were so pitiful against other air units as a dedicated air to air unit.
splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
Do I understand this correct, does this mean that running your units towards a siegetank instead of standing still and taking the hit doesn't matter anymore and damage will always be the same. Doesn't sound like something you'd want...
Hm, really wish they would of lowered the life of the brood lord a lot more.... and as for the thor splash, dont see why they messed with it, as it really was a good way to counter banshees in TvT.
Still skeptical about the corrupter's ability though, they made it VERY situational =\
Ah well, Still looking forward to when they buff the scv's health! xD
This patch right before the HDH Semis, the TLI #2, Razer Domination Finals, and numerous other tourneys. Obviously any time they drop a patch it'll mess with tourneys, but Patch 9/10 was small potatoes to what this patch is doing.
The build orders we see for the tourneys this weekend are going to be VERY interesting. Hopefully people can get enough practice with the new patch in time.
On May 07 2010 05:24 Icx wrote: can't wait for the "blizzard is out to destroy Zerg, i'm quitting, or changing race"
fixed
Seriously how can zerg defend now vs 4 gate push on maps with a back door ??? Blizzard is fucking stupid. Buff for the phoenix, buff for colossus and a 2 dmg reduction for map editor ... its a joke and bad one.
interesting, good to see balance changes still coming. Some got scared that it was more or less finalized, bc of the relatively close release date hehe. Some of the hotkey stuff gonna mess me up for a bit, but o well
Kind of surprised about the addition of move fire for just the phoenix, and not anything else like the hellion. And lack of price reduction on the siege tank (Note to blizz- the reason it is not used alot is cuz it costs too much).
Did anybody else have the problem of having their keyboard TURNED OFF when they played a game? I lost my first placement match because my hotkeys were off, and my Menu Bar was conveniently unclickable. Never happened before the patch (before the reset) >.>
Guess I will have to rethink my Broodlord build I was practicing. Oh well the changes seem harsh to most but if you just got the beta it really wouldn't hurt you. "Oh thor's could 1 shot hydras?"
This is...a completely different game. Wow. The Phoenix thing alone would make a significant impact on PvZ. The rest...just woah. Trying to make heads or tails of this is just beyond possible. Time to see how things develop (aka time for me to go play with Phoenix again :D)
gratz blizz replacing a useless ability with another useless ability. am I the only one or can anyone see any use for the new corruptor ability ?? I actually used the old one from time to time, but this one seems completely useless. you could use it against heavy units but why bother when you have neural parasite ?
Improving the Thor's fire rate and decreasing its damage should make it feel a bit less undynamic I guess but it will definitely make dropship thor harass weaker.
I'm not sure I like the corruptor's new ability. Seems like they took an cool ability with the potential to be used in interesting ways (if they'd just made it a bit stronger, or once people had found out how to use it effectively), and replaced it with a bland ability that can only be used in obvious ways (mostly on Colossi I guess).
Corruptor -Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive). -Corruptor speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531 -Corruption ability redesigned: -Single target. -Increases damage taken by 20%. -Lasts 30 seconds. -Costs 100 energy. -Range 6. -Cannot target structures.
So now corrupters do 20 damage instead of 22 to massive. 24 with corruption. They changed all that so corrupters can do +4 per hit for 30seconds to something that won't even last 30seconds under focus fire from any zerg unit?
if there's something i'm missing, tell me, otherwise this appears to be ridiculously useless.
On May 07 2010 05:24 Icx wrote: can't wait for the "blizzard is out to destroy Zerg, i'm quitting, or changing race"
fixed
Seriously how can zerg defend now vs 4 gate push on maps with a back door ??? Blizzard is fucking stupid. Buff for the phoenix, buff for colossus and a 2 dmg reduction for map editor ... its a joke and bad one.
LoL map editor, haven't heard that before, good one!
I still amazes me that people can hate on a patch that has been out for no more than a few hours. Go play a few games, come back and then feel free to whine when you have a little bit more data to back up your statements with.
Colossus change is semi nerf. Because it attacks twice now in the same time frame, it sees extra bonus from Forge upgrades, however it's a nerf because it's much more difficult to kite with them as you can no longer run away to "recharge" your 1 powerful shot.
the overall dps on the collosus should be the same, they lowered the damage so that they don't one shot weak asses like zergling, marines, workers etc etc easily...
thors 250 mm cannon huge nerf? how often were they used? once evry 30 games? so who cares tank 10 more hp? who cares. HSM change without reducing energy cost is weird too imho. thor anti air still as superbbqgood vs light but sucks even more vs evrything else? why?
ultra dmg buff instead of size/speed/upgrade tweaks?
sentry dmg nerfed instead of FF/guardian shield tweaks?
the whole patch looks to me like they had the right idea (buff /nerf the right units) but just didnt know what to do with em so they change random stuff. blizzard getting confused?
but i like that they are still willing to throw out rather big changes.
/edit no voidray changes might still make me switch to toss. can barely convince me to ladder anymore. dont wanna argue about OP bla but i literally have nightmares about them.
"-The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65. "
What
collosus got a 25% damage nerf and a 25% attack speed buff.
ie no real change.
No, it's a nerf. Take a second to think about it. Since it no longer one shots zerglings, you take a shot, and then take another. The math you're doing does not take into account the series of events. By one shotting zerglings, they would never get a hit on the collosus. By two shotting them but shooting faster, the zerglings now can get a hit and then the second shot goes off. The end result is the same DPS but not the same dynamic, and the way it plays out is a nerf against certain units.
I think we are going to see a lot of Stargate plays from Protoss. Phoenix buffed and Void Ray as powerful as ever. I am a bit puzzled on how Terran is supposed to counter that. Void Rays were hard enough and now we can add Phoenixes to the mix. I guess Marine + Ghost will be necessary, though it seems rather vulnerable to sniping Ghosts.
Will be fun to play and learn the subtle consequences of the changes.
We need some dps calculators for some of these changes... the tank life buff is fucking useless, making ppl research 250mm cannon? really? Was that skill really used all that much? Which fucking unit in sc2 would u snipe with that skill that is WITHIN RANGE. You cant even target air with that, fucking bullshit.
Range on hellions instead of attack speed? and moving shot? Are they jus being assholes here?
Good phoenix upgrade and sentry dmg nerf, making it more like a caster unit. faster attack speed, does that include faster initiated attack animation? so warp prism/collossus might actually work?
Nice broodlord nerf, but corruptor skill nerf... once again... a skill used much, to any great effect? making 1 unit take 20% more dmg for 100 nrg.... There aren't big enuf units for they way then want to use some of these skills.
On May 07 2010 05:40 LunarC wrote: Could Colossi ever kite? I'd have preferred that they increased attack by 25% and decreased firing rate by 25%. Plus a faster attack animation.
Some people are saying that if you tried to animation cancel (same as "kiting") with Colos in the past, it would play the animation but not deal the damage. Personally I can't verify that
Standard -To prevent the accidental research of Ventral Sacs when trying to train an Overlord with no Larva -available, the hotkey has been changed from V to E.
On May 07 2010 05:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Did anybody else have the problem of having their keyboard TURNED OFF when they played a game? I lost my first placement match because my hotkeys were off, and my Menu Bar was conveniently unclickable. Never happened before the patch (before the reset) >.>
The same thing happened to me during one of my placements and I was put into gold because of it. I accused him of hacking after I played a custom game and my keyboard worked. His response was "It's not my fault your keyboard doesn't work >."
On May 07 2010 05:40 LunarC wrote: Could Colossi ever kite? I'd have preferred that they increased attack by 25% and decreased firing rate by 25%. Plus a faster attack animation.
Some people are saying that if you tried to animation cancel (same as "kiting") with Colos in the past, it would play the animation but not deal the damage. Personally I can't verify that
On May 07 2010 05:40 LunarC wrote: Could Colossi ever kite? I'd have preferred that they increased attack by 25% and decreased firing rate by 25%. Plus a faster attack animation.
Some people are saying that if you tried to animation cancel (same as "kiting") with Colos in the past, it would play the animation but not deal the damage. Personally I can't verify that
Yeah, this is exactly the case. I've tried it using map editor test mode. So they really could never kite in the first place.
Don't worry guys, they've fixed everything now! Just like BW! We're saved! :D
Oh dear god. That's not like BW AT ALL. Units in BW were NOT attacking while moving. They were attacking before decelerating. That's why it required players control to make 'em both Attack AND move. There is a fucking serious failure in communication it seems.
On May 07 2010 05:26 LunarC wrote: .....I like the new changes. Can't wait to see more Hunter Seeker usage, and I'm dying to see somebody pull off a reverse HSM with an Infestor.
hmm
Seems like they nerfed it,but made it a bit easier tech to. Range 6 puts your raven in danger, so gas costs and research time being the same and the spell being a bit weaker idk if it'd get more popular.
I do agree I'd like to see some creative uses of it though! We'll have to see.
Seriously, I NEVER would have predicted that changes to be done... wow. I dont reall quite get it for now... really have to see in a few games what the results are. What confuses me most is the zerg changes... where did zerg needed a buff huh?
However as Protoss-Player my first impression is... hm.. sentires do less damage against muta now, and phoenix is now a more enforced "option"... totally dont know if this is not worse at all...
The Tank life buff is not totally ineffective--they take one more hit from Immortals if the Immortals have one weapon upgrade and the Tanks have one armor upgrade. How often that will come into play is another question
On May 07 2010 05:43 GoDannY wrote: Seriously, I NEVER would have predicted that changes to be done... wow. I dont reall quite get it for now... really have to see in a few games what the results are. What confuses me most is the zerg changes... where did zerg needed a buff huh?
However as Protoss-Player my first impression is... hm.. sentires do less damage against muta now, and phoenix is now a more enforced "option"... totally dont know if this is not worse at all...
Hmm, I don't like how tech units get nerfed more and more or suck allready. the strongest unit composition tend to be mass lowtech units which is crappy obviously.
On May 07 2010 05:45 Disastorm wrote: Has anyone calculated if Thors and Collosus were nerfed or buffed since their dmg was decreased but attack speed was increased?
Their overall DPS is identical, but it's effectively a nerf since their shots will be impacted by armor more frequently
..Stuff like this makes me wonder if Blizzard really understands what we are talking about at all.
Moving shot =/= ability to attack while moving.
Moving shot = ability to cut short the deceleration that occurs after attacking and accelerate in the opposite direction to move out of enemy firing range.
Hell yes, now no matter how many upgrades I try to get colossus can't instagib any units! :D......
Not saying it's a major nerf, but it means that it's harder to micro colossus to instagib units like hydras. (2 colossus with +1 upgrade instagib a hydra pre patch) Also burst fire micro is obviously less effective.
Thankfully immortals might not be terrible now that neural parasite isn't just instantly available as a GG to them.
Thankfully I've already stopped using colossus in the majority of my games
On that note though, while moving shot is cool, notice how the OP suggesting moving shot was suggesting it in conjunction with a nerf to phoenixes
Moving shot = ability to cut short the deceleration that occurs after attacking and accelerate in the opposite direction to move out of enemy firing range.
/agree
The point isn't that pheonixes can attack while moving, its that they are extremely responsive so you can quickly attack and run away.
They still haven't fixed this bug I'm having. Has anyone else encountered an issue where they can't log in, and when they try to the game just freezes and you have to go to task manager to end the process?
Am I the only one who's concerned about the spine crawlers and spore crawlers ?
... In fact, I don't care if I'm the only one. Hmm. This patch seems totally "metagameownage". But yeah, that's a huge improvement, clearly for the phoenix. Moving shot. MOVING SHOT ? OH DEAR, YES ! Even if I'm a zerg player, that's an improvement we wanted. Fuck yes.
I, for once, don't think Blizzard is on the wrong side. And even if they were, the beta isn't over. Fact is : they are listening to us. A little. Perhaps. Maybe.
Personnally, the nerf from the 250mm cannon is for the zerg. They now won't be able to NP Thor and kill another one easily if the upgrade isn't there. You will now have to reasearch the upgrade if you have a plan, which seems correct in my opinion. What to say about the NP nerf indeed ? This... Is a HUGE blow. Even if the Thor doesn't 2 shots a queen, drop thor will maybe be more and more common. We'll see about that.
On May 07 2010 05:45 Disastorm wrote: Has anyone calculated if Thors and Collosus were nerfed or buffed since their dmg was decreased but attack speed was increased?
Thor is a slight buff dps wise (if you ignore the effects of armor etc.) and colossus should have about the same dps if the patch notes are right.
rofl. i seriously bursted out in laughter when i saw this.
this patch seems more like a aprils foolpatch then anything.
totally over/missdo the moveshot thing(and only for 1 unit) totally random changes(250mm cannon?) totally weird changes to the right units (ultralisk dmg?tank hp?sentry dmg?)
its like they tried to listen to us, do a good patch and halfway just called it "fuckit, just throw random stuff in and see what happens"
While Thors technically get a tiny DPS buff vs ground they lose their ability to one shot things like hydras, so really it may end up playing out as a huge nerf.
On May 07 2010 05:45 Disastorm wrote: Has anyone calculated if Thors and Collosus were nerfed or buffed since their dmg was decreased but attack speed was increased?
Their overall DPS is identical, but it's effectively a nerf since their shots will be impacted by armor more frequently
you realize that you can upgrade your own attacks right? it's not just the other guy who gets the upgrades. +3 thors if they kept their damage bonus will rip through everything. seriously, if it's still +5 per upgrade with the new fire-rate the damage will be ridiculous
Oh god. Just saw the video. That is now insane. You can completely OWN mutalisks with like, 4 or 5 phoenixes ? That is a joke. A complete and utterly uncomprehensible joke.
I want a real moving shot. Not a 1 apm ownage moving shot.
Another patch with T and P buffs and Z nerfs. What else is new?
The new Corruptor ability looks like the most useless ability I've ever seen in any game. And the Phoenix is just ridiculous. Now it's no use to build another air unit vs P ever again.
On May 07 2010 05:52 spinesheath wrote: Btw, don't get me wrong, moving shot is great, but not if it only requires 1 APM.
If you want Blizzard to put obscure controls into SC2, you're going to be waiting a long time. Move and shoot means move and shoot. Not move, patrol, attack, move, patrol, etc.
so the only thing that phoenix are better at killing now are mutalisks... who teh fuk cares? they still die to vikings and get wtfpwned by corruptors (the true z anti-air unit) and have the same dps...
Wow, these patch release threads are hilarious. So many people making over-dramatic gestures and only looking at one specific change or just their own race. Take a step back, think about the changes taken as a whole, and give the patch some play time before making all these snap judgments.
This patch should makes thinks interesting, that much is for sure. I can't wait to see what some of the very top players do with some of these changes. :D
On May 07 2010 05:55 moopie wrote: Phoenix being able to attack while moving is exactly what they needed.
they needed moving attack, not attacking while moving.
No, what they need (and what Hellion/Muta/others need) is animation canceling. I think we need to stop referring to what they need as any combination of the words "moving attack" because it clearly has Blizzard very confused.
On May 07 2010 05:52 spinesheath wrote: Btw, don't get me wrong, moving shot is great, but not if it only requires 1 APM.
If you want Blizzard to put obscure controls into SC2, you're going to be waiting a long time. Move and shoot means move and shoot. Not move, patrol, attack, move, patrol, etc.
Animation cancelling isn't an obscure control. God, this is incredibly lame.
I still remember the first time I saw a pro do the moving shot and spent a bunch of time in micro maps trying to copy it So sad to see this travesty.
Not really liking the Thor AA change...it just got even more specialized for Banshee/Muta. Not that they were useful in TvT before, but it's like Blizz wants a BC fest.
On May 07 2010 05:57 mikejer wrote: Wow, these patch release threads are hilarious. So many people making over-dramatic gestures and only looking at one specific change or just their own race. Take a step back, think about the changes taken as a whole, and give the patch some play time before making all these snap judgments.
This patch should makes thinks interesting, that much is for sure. I can't wait to see what some of the very top players do with some of these changes. :D
How the hell can you NOT look at Phoenix moving shot in isolation.
On May 07 2010 05:56 HeyheyLBJ wrote: Another patch with T and P buffs and Z nerfs. What else is new?
The new Corruptor ability looks like the most useless ability I've ever seen in any game. And the Phoenix is just ridiculous. Now it's no use to build another air unit vs P ever again.
Seems pretty good. They changed the attacks to be more often and less powerfull in quite a few units, I wonder if the dps changed much with that. On the other side, the hotkeys don't make much sense... Let's see how this work out.
On May 07 2010 05:52 spinesheath wrote: Btw, don't get me wrong, moving shot is great, but not if it only requires 1 APM.
If you want Blizzard to put obscure controls into SC2, you're going to be waiting a long time. Move and shoot means move and shoot. Not move, patrol, attack, move, patrol, etc.
How is moving-attacking-moving obscure? It does what it says, move, attack, move. And because of acceleration/deceleration the unit keeps moving.
However, if you tell a unit to MOVE and it ATTACKS, in the direction opposite of the movement direction then THAT is weird.
I think the new phoenix is sorta fine, and we should see how it plays out before asking for a change. After all, it have a narrow role of anti-muta and isn't exactly imba with this.
when i started reading those players gathered patch notes, i was happy about protos nerf.. just to find out.. all this patch did was nerf zerg. and buff everyone else.. seriously? while zerg might be strongest race in korea, its weakst in europe.. and probably same in usa..
12s to root? are you kidding me?
neural parasite research + 100 energy?
i might just stick with going mass mutas ( just like 90% of koreans do ) , but heck.. voids + phoenix already raped mutas.. and then proceeds liftoff + omg i deal 500 dmg void ray rape things.. and now phoenix can shoot from his ass? corruptors still useless.
its not like you get them vs small air units.. you get them vs colosus.. and such.. and it got nerfed vs massive too..
Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
On May 07 2010 05:31 malloc84 wrote: Corruption is even more useless o_o
Single Target 20% increased damage over 30 seconds, no structures... Lemme find a unit that lasts more than 5-10 seconds in battle...
I guess the idea behind that is to help corruptors with their original role of taking down massive units, like Collosi, BCs and Carriers/Motherships.
Also, I HATE the fact that they redesigned how 'big' units like Collosi and Thors do damage. The fact that they lowered initial damage means that they are less micro'able... This change just means that they become even more of a A-move unit than they were before..
On May 07 2010 05:52 spinesheath wrote: Btw, don't get me wrong, moving shot is great, but not if it only requires 1 APM.
If you want Blizzard to put obscure controls into SC2, you're going to be waiting a long time. Move and shoot means move and shoot. Not move, patrol, attack, move, patrol, etc.
They have obscure control NOW. Because now you can't properly focus fire with them, since they attack automatically closest target wherever their cooldown is over.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
I'm happy to see the changes to Neural Parasite. The range change in the last patch needed to be made, but leaving everything else as it was made them way too powerful IMHO. I think I'm a fan of the corruption ability as well. I can see some interesting tactics coming out of that and maybe it'll make terran MM balls think a bit before throwing up a stim against zerg with corruptors. I think it gives the unit a bit better place in a standard zerg army than the specialized place they held before. Also, while I don't know if it's enough to make the unit viable yet, I like that they're at least looking at ultras. That's a good damage increase. Maybe we'll see some overlord drops with them into the front of a battle since they're still too damn slow and will get kited by marauders. I'm content with the protoss changes and happy to see that my sentries didn't get too severe of a nerf. I can definitely understand a damage nerf to them.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
On May 07 2010 06:01 Smikis wrote: when i started reading those players gathered patch notes, i was happy about protos nerf.. just to find out.. all this patch did was nerf zerg. and buff everyone else.. seriously? while zerg might be strongest race in korea, its weakst in europe.. and probably same in usa..
12s to root? are you kidding me?
neural parasite research + 100 energy?
i might just stick with going mass mutas ( just like 90% of koreans do ) , but heck.. voids + phoenix already raped mutas.. and then proceeds liftoff + omg i deal 500 dmg void ray rape things.. and now phoenix can shoot from his ass? corruptors still useless.
its not like you get them vs small air units.. you get them vs colosus.. and such.. and it got nerfed vs massive too..
Yeah. Now mutas aren't even an option vs protoss, so it's even less units for Z that already has fewer units. Yay!
Why couldn't they have buffed corruptors at least?
-its still an interesting thing, curious to see how it pans out, but I suspect not well... -definitely prefer the corsair version , or something similar that requires you to micro it more than that..
On May 07 2010 05:52 spinesheath wrote: Btw, don't get me wrong, moving shot is great, but not if it only requires 1 APM.
If you want Blizzard to put obscure controls into SC2, you're going to be waiting a long time. Move and shoot means move and shoot. Not move, patrol, attack, move, patrol, etc.
Animation cancelling isn't an obscure control. God, this is incredibly lame.
I still remember the first time I saw a pro do the moving shot and spent a bunch of time in micro maps trying to copy it So sad to see this travesty.
oh that shit has sailed jinro
maybe u didnt notice but everything about sc2 is about 5 times easier than sc1
i still think the game is becoming more and more fun for each patch tho (less massing 1 unit and camping in front of natural)
they should have made so phonix has 0 cast time (not having to slow down before attack) rather than being able to fly backwards twice as fast as any other air unit lol )
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard if the mutas are smart enough not to chase after them just outside their attack range.
On May 07 2010 05:45 Disastorm wrote: Has anyone calculated if Thors and Collosus were nerfed or buffed since their dmg was decreased but attack speed was increased?
Their overall DPS is identical, but it's effectively a nerf since their shots will be impacted by armor more frequently
you realize that you can upgrade your own attacks right? it's not just the other guy who gets the upgrades. +3 thors if they kept their damage bonus will rip through everything
Thors aren't useful for their DPS, they're useful for their enormous burst damage. At the beginning of a battle Thors (and similar units like siege tanks and roaches) deal a enormous initial burst of damage before it tempers off due to long cool down. For instance they would kill a hydralisk in a single attack cycle, with zero cool down coming into play, now they will take 2 full attack cycles (I think with +3 weapons Thors can once again "one-shot" hydras, though 3 caraspace may negate that ability entirely). Ditto for EMP'ed stalkers, roaches from 2 to 3 attack cycles (1.92s vs 2.56s). The overall effect of this change is that Thors are less effective vs. armor (though still very strong against it overall due to their high damage), less effective against units in the 60-180 HP range, and stronger against things like marines and zerglings which I imagine will still rape them anyway. On top of that they've been weakened against air, buildings, and are still clumsy.
On May 07 2010 05:59 MorroW wrote: hoping for some awesome phonix action in zvp now theoretically they should be pretty damn untouchable
btw can anyone tell what the root time did for the spore and sunken?
Not gonna happen since no Z will ever build mutas against P ever again.
Spot on, mutas won't do any good agains a protoss that goes for a stargate-less build, e.g. fast robo. And even if the toss goes for a stargate I will bet my life on that a spire still will be viable depending on the state of the match.
On May 07 2010 06:04 Spell_Crafted wrote: I'm happy to see the changes to Neural Parasite. The range change in the last patch needed to be made, but leaving everything else as it was made them way too powerful IMHO. I think I'm a fan of the corruption ability as well. I can see some interesting tactics coming out of that and maybe it'll make terran MM balls think a bit before throwing up a stim against zerg with corruptors. I think it gives the unit a bit better place in a standard zerg army than the specialized place they held before. Also, while I don't know if it's enough to make the unit viable yet, I like that they're at least looking at ultras. That's a good damage increase. Maybe we'll see some overlord drops with them into the front of a battle since they're still too damn slow and will get kited by marauders. I'm content with the protoss changes and happy to see that my sentries didn't get too severe of a nerf. I can definitely understand a damage nerf to them.
How can anyone be a fan of Corruption? It's way weaker than what Devourers did every shot in BW, and for 100 energy. That's just... ridiculous.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
Very curious to see how this patch will change the HDH tourney. Players have already played their Bo8 and now it's a different game for the semi-finals.
The phoenix thing is laughable, but it at least shows they are listening, maybe they will get it right next patch, hopefully also fixing mutas to have moving shot as well.
Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
You guys complained about no moving shot and said the lack of it meant you can never overtake an enemy who pre-emptively took air superiority. Now you do. Simple as that.
Oh, and if you can perfectly measure your movements to not get hit, then you would be able to do SC1-style moving shot anyway. Phoenixes DO move faster than Mutas, you know >.> You actually have to think, unlike some people seem to believe (LOLOL 1 APM = INVINCIBLE PHOENIXES, YOU DON'T NEED TO THINK AT ALL!)
On May 07 2010 05:57 mikejer wrote: Wow, these patch release threads are hilarious. So many people making over-dramatic gestures and only looking at one specific change or just their own race. Take a step back, think about the changes taken as a whole, and give the patch some play time before making all these snap judgments.
This patch should makes thinks interesting, that much is for sure. I can't wait to see what some of the very top players do with some of these changes. :D
i took a step back, realised protoss got nerfed while marauders still stay s strong as ever, then promptly decided not to play protoss anymore
Guess they want T's to start making more BCs and ravens.. /shrug
Idk why every is mad about the NP nerf, its kind of a gross ability imo, and it needed the researched. When I read it, I didn't think nerf, it can target air, so I thought it was a buff heh..
But I honestly don't understand the spine/spore crawler stuff.. It must've been abused by asians or soemthing.
Glad to see sentry's damage toned down, but those phoenix's... wtf did Blizzard do??! more auto micro = lame imo
On May 07 2010 06:08 BlackHat wrote: The phoenix thing is laughable, but it at least shows they are listening, maybe they will get it right next patch, hopefully also fixing mutas to have moving shot as well.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
I might just be doing it wrong but I want to see an infestor buff that allows the infestor and the MC'd unit to move together instead of having them stuck to where the infestor is
The new corruption ability seems really bad to me, like someone else said there probably isn't going to be anything that stays around for that full 30 seconds I think it would be better if it kinda was an aoe thing like fungal but that seems kinda overpowered, or if the corruption shuts down that unit even without the damage boost
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
Too bad Ghosts and Ravens together cost a ton of gas Otherwise, you'd be golden.
On May 07 2010 06:08 Zeke50100 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
You guys complained about no moving shot and said the lack of it meant you can never overtake an enemy who pre-emptively took air superiority. Now you do. Simple as that.
Oh, and if you can perfectly measure your movements to not get hit, then you would be able to do SC1-style moving shot anyway. Phoenixes DO move faster than Mutas, you know >.> You actually have to think, unlike some people seem to believe (LOLOL 1 APM = INVINCIBLE PHOENIXES, YOU DON'T NEED TO THINK AT ALL!)
No. Protoss players whined that they weren't as overpowered in the air as they were on the ground. Now they are so they cheer. The rest of us facepalm ourselves.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
Mutas are such a bad idea now it seems PvZ if P goes for pheonixes with their moving shot. Corruptor's range (6) + its new ability seems to be the only way to take care of them apart from hydras.
On the other hand, T seems relatively unaffected as their AA fighter range doesn't allow the pheonix to exploit its moving shot as much. Viking - 9 & Battlecruiser - 6
WOW, NP can target AIR UNITS ? Oh. My. God. I didn't see that !
Infestors will now be so awesome in late game, but less in mid. I can't wait to try them now, even with the changes ! AIR UNITS ! That means... We can NP phoenixes and moonwalk as Zerg ! This is insane ! :D
On May 07 2010 06:11 ymirheim wrote: Ehm, so now how am I going to beat a voidray push when its backed up by phoenixes? I guess vikings are done in TvP.
Lol, nobody is going to be able to kite against a viking. The whole point is to get outside of the range of the other unit, when the viking is involved notgunnahappen.
Infestor -Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit. -Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. -Neural Parasite can now target Air units. -Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
Well, the energy cost + research change seem to be a considerable nerf to the NP. Maybe this will promote ghost usage TvZ ?
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
yeah NP already makes this new corruption redundant, I don't understand it. Corruptor might have been underused but it was way better then way it was. The NP "nerf" is actually a massive buff
The spine crawler nerfs were for korean zergs, we didn't much of that in EU/US. I saw it in some replays, they had pretty crazy ideas like canceling a hatchery and then building a spine crawler on top of the creep from the canceled hatchery, or queen rushes with creep tumors and spine crawlers.
The thor nerf is against thor-heavy unit compositions, now it no longer 1-shots hydras or 2-shots roaches. So 1 thor vs 1 hydra without any support now takes 2 shots, that 's 2.56s vs the former 1 shot which was 1.93s. In general, reducing damage and increasing rof makes upgrades more important, and mixed unit compositions superior.
Nice change to the phoenix i think animation canceling was just a way to overcome the game engine, the apm should be spent somewhere else. I don't care if bw pros learned it and now can't use it anymore, this is a different game so there are new things to learn and master, not just the old bw tricks.
Good change to infestors although i was expecting a range nerf, 7 was too short, 9 is too long, doesn't take a genius to set it to 8. I was just trying with some success a build that used banshees to counter infestors (after failing with ghosts), i guess the only options left now for us poor terrans are use tanks or train ghost micro.
Phoenix change sucks. Everyone everywhere does attack - move - attack - move anyway, so there's no reason to do this.. I was afraid something like this would happen because of the mothership and voidray behaving this way.
Now you won't have those occasions where people are moving their units and lack the awareness to snipe something. You won't see players move their phoenixes past some mutas and overlords without killing them because they're macroing in their base. They'll just kill them. And as a result, there will be one less thing for you to notice a player being good at.
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
You realize Infestors can actually be killed? Very easily, at that.
Infestors are a nerfed versions of Dark Archons, the least used unit in bw ever.
Yeah lol, moving shot is definitely an engine issue.
They should try recoding the engine so aircraft at least have to be turned to a 90 degree angle (in relation to the opponent) before firing.
Moving shot in SC actually required you to be facing your opponent and accelerating towards him. Although patrol micro sort of circumvented this by allowing shots to be fired from a 90 degree angle. BUT, with the difference that the air unit would head towards the opponent for a split second when firing (but not lose maneuverability or acceleration and would be able to turn around instantly).
This... is just overpowered. I like how they seemingly read my post in a literal sense and only addressed the phoenix while leaving other units like the muta as retarded as they were before. That will probably do wonders for balance
On May 07 2010 06:11 ymirheim wrote: Ehm, so now how am I going to beat a voidray push when its backed up by phoenixes? I guess vikings are done in TvP.
Don't forget they got range 9. They should be fine.
On May 07 2010 06:04 Spell_Crafted wrote: I'm happy to see the changes to Neural Parasite. The range change in the last patch needed to be made, but leaving everything else as it was made them way too powerful IMHO. I think I'm a fan of the corruption ability as well. I can see some interesting tactics coming out of that and maybe it'll make terran MM balls think a bit before throwing up a stim against zerg with corruptors.
On May 07 2010 06:08 BlackHat wrote: The phoenix thing is laughable, but it at least shows they are listening, maybe they will get it right next patch, hopefully also fixing mutas to have moving shot as well.
Don't forget about helions.
Yeah I can't forget about them. I even made a thread about hellion micro, got some good replies but ultimately they are still clunky as hell to micro.
On May 07 2010 06:05 Liquid_Turbo wrote: Blizz took the 'moving' in 'moving shot' too literally. It's all LaLush's fault! JK JK!!
wait... so how exactly have they changed it? is it now that you just right click on a fleeting mutalisk and the phoenix will automatically fly and shoot without you doing anything but one click??that would be freakin retarded. Maybe they completely misunderstood what LaLush was saying.....I was actually so happy when I read that but ... ugh somebody please tell me I misunderstood what theyve done (cant play EU is being patched)
T_T at sentry nerf... might have been the right balance change, I dont know, but sucks for someone like me who goes zealot sentry nearly every game ^^
Infestor -Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit. -Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. -Neural Parasite can now target Air units. -Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
You realize Infestors can actually be killed? Very easily, at that.
Infestors are a nerfed versions of Dark Archons, the least used unit in bw ever.
clearly not a good player. disregard this comment.
MOVING ON
gonna have to work on my clairvoyance when I'm positioning my crawlers now T_T
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
On May 07 2010 06:14 Ganondorf wrote: The spine crawler nerfs were for korean zergs, we didn't much of that in EU/US. I saw it in some replays, they had pretty crazy ideas like canceling a hatchery and then building a spine crawler on top of the creep from the canceled hatchery, or queen rushes with creep tumors and spine crawlers.
How does this work? Creep isnt generated until the hatchery is completed.
On May 07 2010 06:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Lots of interesting changes.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
corruption doesn't reduce a units health by 20%.
It causes all damage against it to be increased by 20%
On May 07 2010 06:14 Mob wrote: if any one was wondering:
DPS for colossus is exactly the same DPS for thor is a teeeny tiny bit higher now
The important thing about the thor though, is that they will be better able to take down large groups of small units. Bad news for a zerg player like me.
On May 07 2010 06:15 LaLuSh wrote: Yeah lol, moving shot is definitely an engine issue.
They should try recoding the engine so aircraft at least have to be turned to a 90 degree angle (in relation to the opponent) before firing.
Moving shot in SC actually required you to be facing your opponent and accelerating towards him. Although patrol micro sort of circumvented this by allowing shots to be fired from a 90 degree angle. BUT, with the difference that the air unit would head towards the opponent for a split second when firing (but not lose maneuverability or acceleration and would be able to turn around instantly).
This... is just overpowered. I like how they seemingly read my post in a literal sense and only addressed the phoenix while leaving other units like the muta as retarded as they were before. That will probably do wonders for balance
Please don't call it moving shot anymore--you've clearly confused the heck out of Blizzard
Jesus Christ, relax people. Every patch the same embarrassing outrages :/
Overall the game has become more balanced. Now there are some ups and downs but hell, let them figure it out. You can post your opinions with less capslock and needn't repost the Phoenix video 5 times per page -.-
That being said there are quite some interesting changes and even the Phoenix mechanic swap is nice, as it is something new. However it could indeed be too strong right now and may need some more tweaking. The Ultralisk buff is pretty pointless as his biggest weakness is still the high tech cost and the hard counter and pathing issues. Though I think his damage was indeed too little before patch. I mean even if you do splash damage it still took 8-9 attack to kill an upgraded Marauder. And though his attack speed is pretty high that still took about 5 seconds... and now take meds into consideration >.<
the phoenix thing to me is the only huge change. i think that it is so cool they should leave it in the game, but make mutas be able to do the same but only to air. that way we have these crazy looking micro air battles above a ground battle how sick
On May 07 2010 06:15 LaLuSh wrote: Yeah lol, moving shot is definitely an engine issue.
They should try recoding the engine so aircraft at least have to be turned to a 90 degree angle (in relation to the opponent) before firing.
Moving shot in SC actually required you to be facing your opponent and accelerating towards him. Although patrol micro sort of circumvented this by allowing shots to be fired from a 90 degree angle. BUT, with the difference that the air unit would head towards the opponent for a split second when firing (but not lose maneuverability or acceleration and would be able to turn around instantly).
This... is just overpowered. I like how they seemingly read my post in a literal sense and only addressed the phoenix while leaving other units like the muta as retarded as they were before. That will probably do wonders for balance
They are trolling you for calling them names in that post
Watching Idra vs Huk last night shows to me that at the highest levels. Colossus were just fine, and should not have been nerfed. Hell they maybe even needed a buff lol. Huk went a fast expo colossus build twice and by the most razer thin margin won the first time he tryed it. The second time Idra massive numbers shut it down. Seemed pretty even after watching those two games. With this Nerf I'm not sure Huk would have held Idra off that first game.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
Imagine a Corsair killing a Scourge while it's being chased.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
On May 07 2010 06:16 selboN wrote: I've also noticed that I haven't been able to use "exit game" without my SC2 going to "not-responding". Anyone else have this minor issue?
WOW what the fuck keep fucking shitting on toss blizz, nerf every unit we have until theres nothing left... might as well switch to fucking zerg this is so ridiculous
On May 07 2010 06:04 Spell_Crafted wrote: I'm happy to see the changes to Neural Parasite. The range change in the last patch needed to be made, but leaving everything else as it was made them way too powerful IMHO. I think I'm a fan of the corruption ability as well. I can see some interesting tactics coming out of that and maybe it'll make terran MM balls think a bit before throwing up a stim against zerg with corruptors. I think it gives the unit a bit better place in a standard zerg army than the specialized place they held before. Also, while I don't know if it's enough to make the unit viable yet, I like that they're at least looking at ultras. That's a good damage increase. Maybe we'll see some overlord drops with them into the front of a battle since they're still too damn slow and will get kited by marauders. I'm content with the protoss changes and happy to see that my sentries didn't get too severe of a nerf. I can definitely understand a damage nerf to them.
How can anyone be a fan of Corruption? It's way weaker than what Devourers did every shot in BW, and for 100 energy. That's just... ridiculous.
I was a fan of it because I didn't see the line "single target". Guess there was just too much in the patch notes for me to catch everything. This changes a lot and I don't think it's that useful at all now especially for that kind of energy cost. Way too high. If it was lowed to around 25-50 it could possibly see some use, but yeah.. too much. I don't expect it'll be used much except for possible small skirmishes to drop 1 larger unit.
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
if you know how to right click, you are now in control of untouchable phoenixes.
imagine the easiest possible micro in your head. thats it.
right click to move phnx, they move and will atk in any direction as soon as they are in range while still moving.
I agree with everything in the patch but the sentry nerf. Sentries were perfect, why mess them up? Also not sure about the colossus change, as kiting with them is kinda important.
Do phoenixes outrange mutas? If not, you could concentrate all of your mutas into a tiny ball and use hold position vs. phoenixes. Then when the phoenixes get in range to hit you, the mutas will attack.
On May 07 2010 06:15 LaLuSh wrote: Yeah lol, moving shot is definitely an engine issue.
They should try recoding the engine so aircraft at least have to be turned to a 90 degree angle (in relation to the opponent) before firing.
Moving shot in SC actually required you to be facing your opponent and accelerating towards him. Although patrol micro sort of circumvented this by allowing shots to be fired from a 90 degree angle. BUT, with the difference that the air unit would head towards the opponent for a split second when firing (but not lose maneuverability or acceleration and would be able to turn around instantly).
This... is just overpowered. I like how they seemingly read my post in a literal sense and only addressed the phoenix while leaving other units like the muta as retarded as they were before. That will probably do wonders for balance
Please don't call it moving shot anymore--you've clearly confused the heck out of Blizzard
Call it animation canceling!
Yeah probably a better choice of words.
They need:
Animation cancelling, and for units to actually be made to accelerate towards what they're firing at. It's because they coded air units to turn around their axis while gliding (in the direction whey were already heading), that they're in this predicament.
Looks funny. Perhaps shouldn't judge it too harshly before having tried it. We might like it
On May 07 2010 06:22 NATO wrote: I agree with everything in the patch but the sentry nerf. Sentries were perfect, why mess them up? Also not sure about the colossus change, as kiting with them is kinda important.
(PS: I play terran)
Maybe they didn't want a caster to have the same dps as a roach. It's mind-boggling that they can attack at all, actually... But the FF is the BIG problem with them, but that is left untouched.
So...leaving off the more obvious changes, could a decent Terran player tell us how the Tank change is faring? Does this make Siege Tanks more viable? Grow hair on your chest? Evolve you to a higher plane of existence?
On May 07 2010 06:20 InToTheWannaB wrote: Watching Idra vs Huk last night shows to me that at the highest levels. Colossus were just fine, and should not have been nerfed. Hell they maybe even needed a buff lol. Huk went a fast expo colossus build twice and by the most razer thin margin won the first time he tryed it. The second time Idra massive numbers shut it down. Seemed pretty even after watching those two games. With this Nerf I'm not sure Huk would have held Idra off that first game.
Yea...iunno why they nerfed colossus. DPS is the same sure, but when u include armor it's actually a pretty big nerf.
Now there's no way colossus can 2-shot hydras and lings will always have to be 2-shotted except when u have +3 weapons...
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
Imagine a Corsair killing a Scourge while it's being chased.
Except the situation is only replicated if you're fighting 20 Mutalisks with 1 Phoenix >.>
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
You realize Infestors can actually be killed? Very easily, at that.
Infestors are a nerfed versions of Dark Archons, the least used unit in bw ever.
Just because they're low hp doesnt mean they're easy to kill. 9 range is sick, and with a wall of hydreas/roaches infront they seem untouchable at times
honestly I really find it nice and awesome how blizzard obviously listens to stuff like Lalush's guide, if only they hadn't screwed it up like this... wow this is like....lololol
On May 07 2010 06:04 Wr3k wrote: WTF at infestor and corruption changes. NP is now going to be used even less, and corruption can't stop a planetary fortress from raping you... what the fuck blizzard?
Also now it takes twice as long to burrow a spine crawler? Why the fuck would they even change that.
All the other changes make sense, but the zerg nerfs just blow my mind.
You realize that NP with range 9 makes thors 100% useless, and now that they can steal air units, also makes ravens useless (especially with the HSM nerf to 6 range) ?
I totally agree NP needed a nerf, but this is just too much. The change removes NP from midgame, and quite effectively removes any carrier/battlecruiser/mothership usage versus zerg from the game. (Note; I know you already didn't see this in the games, but IMHO it was at least fairly viable, from my expirience as top platinum random, especially PvZ. This change kills my one base mothership builds :D).
A 100/100 research with 75 energy and no air-capturing would've been enough, combined with a corruptor fix for lategame zerg anti-air.
DPS is only valuable in games with HIGH hitpoint units. Like WoW.
In a game like Starcraft, with large numbers of units with relatively low hitpoints (not so much after the Marauder and Roach came along, however), what is important is how many shots it takes to KILL a unit.
Burrow is underused but i've seen a few zergs using it to counter force fields, you can move below a force field you know. This is a huge patch so near to release, well i guess 3 months isn't that near so we'll see quite a few more patches. According to some dev interview, iirc, they said cheese builds were overnerfed just for beta, that way they can get ppl to play with all units and actually beta-test the game. Once beta is over i expect they will undo some of those changes. A good patch overall, there's still alot to be done but they're working rally hard at it.
On May 07 2010 06:23 Captain Peabody wrote: So...leaving off the more obvious changes, could a decent Terran player tell us how the Tank change is faring? Does this make Siege Tanks more viable? Grow hair on your chest? Evolve you to a higher plane of existence?
I also would like to hear what the splash damage change actually did.
On May 07 2010 06:14 Ganondorf wrote: The spine crawler nerfs were for korean zergs, we didn't much of that in EU/US. I saw it in some replays, they had pretty crazy ideas like canceling a hatchery and then building a spine crawler on top of the creep from the canceled hatchery, or queen rushes with creep tumors and spine crawlers.
How does this work? Creep isnt generated until the hatchery is completed.
Or is there actually creep UNDER the hatchery?
There is actually a bit of creep under a hatchery while it is building. You could build a hatchery, then cancel (cost something like 75 min) and plop a tumor on it to get creep anywhere. then you put spines on it and voila! Contain!
On May 07 2010 06:24 LunarC wrote: People seem to value dps over shots to kill.
People.
DPS is only valuable in games with HIGH hitpoint units. Like WoW.
In a game like Starcraft, with large numbers of units with relatively low hitpoints (not so much after the Marauder and Roach came along, however), what is important is how many shots it takes to KILL a unit.
Blizzard needs to realize this too.
You know, it's kinda important how fast the unit will fire those shots as well... That's what DPS is.
phoenix are the only unit that attack on their own when u issue a move command. what if i just wanted to move them and not attack anything? this is imba. talk about dumbing down the game. who ever suggested this is a REEEETARRRDDDDD
Wow... That video... Who the fuck would think that'd be a good idea to make phoenixes work like that? You could already shoot while moving, like you could in BW when chasing down mutas with corsairs or other mutas..
this patch seems very good and fair i like it its going to create some interesting changes, adding strats but not taking away any.Im very interested in seeing how the phoenix will be played now
On May 07 2010 06:01 pencilcase wrote: Just tried the Phoenix against Muta micro. Notice that Pheonixs only have 1 more range than Mutas. Thus it's actually really hard to micro the Pheonix's against the Mutas if you are outnumbered.
How is it hard to tell the phonix to move away from the mutas?
hard when theyre flying at them.
The phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game.
pretty hard to attack mutalisks if u are flying faster than them and away (out of range) from them...i suppose u could zig zag your phoenixes so that the mutas stay in range .... esp if they are chasing u..
Sorry, but that's nowhere near "hard". Zig zag for a while once your phoenixes stop shooting. Woo. That's easier than kiting with marauders with slow.
I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's way too easy and MOVE should be MOVE, not some automatic moving shot thing. The obvious counter would be Fungal Growth of course.
Protoss has now two completely random easy mode skills. Warpgates having their own global hotkey for no reason and phoenixes having moving shot by default. While they're at it, they could give that moving shot to every unit. Why should phoenixes be special there? Think about how cool it would be if a Thor was slowly approaching a building while it is shooting at it?
It's just ridiculous.
I still dont get how this now moving shot works T_T someone please explain
I'd like to see moving shots for every ranged unit, just for the laugh, imagine the mess, melee units would be totally useless, I hope this kind of thing cand me modified in the editor.
from i terrans perspective i think its a step ahead for tvz. thor drop less powerful (2 hitting queens was really mad) and metal more reliable because of the infestor nerf.
tvp is still a catastrophe. what the hell is up with blizzard?
its so obvious what has to be changed imho, and that is give vikings light armor. think about it a second. it would fix everything from metal being hardcountered singlehandedly by immortals to the much discussed 3 wargate+void ray strat.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
On May 07 2010 06 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 07 2010 06 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:27 Cheezy wrote: inb4 "Units now automatically retreat when low on health."
rofl and nexus automatically produces workers and workers automatically expand when needed lol.
Infestor -Neural Parasite can now target Air units.
Didnt we have enough of Neural Parasite on Motherships already? Sure its balanced by the fact that no one builds the Mothership, but IMO its ridiculous to have a tier 2 unit take over a much more expensive tier 3 unit. The mind control spell in BW was on a rarely used and expensive unit, but Infestors have one of the best spells in the game already.
Phoenix -Can now attack while moving.
If it makes the micro-junkies shut up about not having anything to do ... but other units could work with this "skill" and I wonder why they didnt add it to them and how long it will take to start the whining for Mutalisk moving shot (which will make the slow-turning Thor even more useless than it has become with this patch).
Thor -Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light). -250mm Strike Cannons energy cost increased from 100 to 150.
So now the Thor is supposed to suck against Brood Lords and other non-light air units? Bad decision. Increasing the energy for the 250 mm ability to 150 means that Thors get really vulnerable to Feedback now, since they cant really spend the energy well. Reducing the max energy to 150 might have done the same while not increasing the vulnerability.
On May 07 2010 06:28 Sublimis wrote: "du... praktikant-jonas, kan du fixa det här med moving shot på phoenix? ska vara klart om en timme, ah grymt tack tja"
Lol ;P
Translation for non-swedes:
"Oi, intern-Joe, could you fix this moving shot issue we've been hearing so much about? Need it in an hour. Wicked, bye".
all ppl say that toss got nerf alot but its only sentry who get really nerf. The collossus get the same amound of DPS ok it can't 1 shot ling but... you will probably got some zealots to hurt ling so colossus will kill faster with zealot in the mix
On May 07 2010 06:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Lots of interesting changes.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
corruption doesn't reduce a units health by 20%.
It causes all damage against it to be increased by 20%
I know, I'm just trying to say that the effect of the corruption ability is like decreasing the HP of a big unit by 40-60 HP. Which is quite a lame ability with pretty much no potential for interesting use.
Meh i don't like this patch. Hellion range is going to hurt bad. Corruptor nerf hurts. Excited to see ultra usage though, finally a reason to tech up to hive.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually, this way curruptors would rape colossi even harder.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually it's the same as roughly 15% of the units total health in damage when cast on a unit with full HP. Yep. fairly useless on low-tech units.
On May 07 2010 06:08 Zeke50100 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
Yes, and it has anti gravity thing so it all makes sense that it can do all of that..
the previous corrupter ability, while totally underused by most players, was pretty creative and useful, this new spell is totally boring and most likely useless vs anything other than Thor/Colossus/Ultra and Mothership/Carrier/BC.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
If the 20% will have any meaningfull usage remains to be seen, i'd assume it would be usefull if you do not have a critical mass of units to burst down the focused target instantly.
Other than that, the 20% bonus for sniping collosi will be usefull, as its not like they die instantly if you only have around 4 corruptors.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually it's the same as roughly 15% of the units total health in damage when cast on a unit with full HP. Yep. completely useless on any units.
Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually, this way curruptors would rape colossi even harder.
yeah, 20% harder, meaning u kill ONE UNIT 20% faster. this is absolutely nothing. this is the worst ability ever in sc1 or sc2.
On May 07 2010 06:35 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
i won't use it because it will be a waste of my time to click it
On May 07 2010 06:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Lots of interesting changes.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
corruption doesn't reduce a units health by 20%.
It causes all damage against it to be increased by 20%
I know, I'm just trying to say that the effect of the corruption ability is like decreasing the HP of a big unit by 40-60 HP. Which is quite a lame ability with pretty much no potential for interesting use.
No it's effect isn't like that at all. They are totally different.
I.E. a zergling attacking a corrupted unit does 1 extra damage per hit. But an ultralisk attacking a corrupted unit does 5 extra damage per hit. It depends on the damage of the attacking units, not on the health of the corrupted unit.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually it's the same as roughly 15% of the units total health in damage when cast on a unit with full HP. Yep. fairly useless on low-tech units.
And to quote myself, wonder if the damage boost is before or after armor? If it is before the armor damage reduction the damage increase from the spell will actually be larger than 20%
How is that epic? The video only shows the WEAKNESS of auto-move. It makes you THINK you have invincible Phoenixes, but look at how low those Phoenixes became. If you want to actually efficiently micro, you have to...well, micro.
Also, people should test Corruption in-game. For Example: Does the damage calculation come before or after the Hardened Shields?
On May 07 2010 06:35 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
i won't use it because it will be a waste of my time to click it
On May 07 2010 06:35 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
i won't use it because it will be a waste of my time to click it
It's pretty much the devourer's acid spores ability from BW except without attack speed slow and single target and cost energy.
The micro in the second video above is terrible. Running the Phoenix past the Mutas repeatedly just lets the Mutas constantly pound on them. There's pretty much no difference between what the guy in the video does, and what would happen if you just attack-moved...except you can't focus fire at all, so it's actually worse.
The proper way to Phoenix micro is to run the Phoenix around just out of range of the Mutas, so that the Phoenix can attack them without being attacked themselves. THIS way, the Phoenix are quite deadly.
Really, the fact that Phoenix can now destroy Mutas is really not a problem in my book, since it's specifically designed to counter them. Now, if we hear that the Phoenix is way too powerful against Corruptors, then I'll be worried...
On May 07 2010 06:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Lots of interesting changes.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
corruption doesn't reduce a units health by 20%.
It causes all damage against it to be increased by 20%
I know, I'm just trying to say that the effect of the corruption ability is like decreasing the HP of a big unit by 40-60 HP. Which is quite a lame ability with pretty much no potential for interesting use.
No it's effect isn't like that at all. They are totally different.
I.E. a zergling attacking a corrupted unit does 1 extra damage per hit. But an ultralisk attacking a corrupted unit does 5 extra damage per hit. It depends on the damage of the attacking units, not on the health of the corrupted unit.
what both of u are saying is the same thing. doing 40hp to a 200hp unit all at once, or doing the 40 in extra damage via ur attacking units - is 40 damage either way.
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
You could micro (spread out) against corsairs. Nothing you can do vs phoenixes, man.
This is the case with a lot of things in this game.
On May 07 2010 06:35 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
Together with the reduced damage to massive units, the corruptor now kills corrupted Colossi around 5% faster than before. It's not worth the effort. The only thing it is good for is getting rid of that energy to prevent HTs from feedbacking you for 200 damage.
I think Ultralisks are more viable now. Eager to see if people will start using them a bit more. They are already extremely tough so I think the damage increase will be enough.
On May 07 2010 06:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Lots of interesting changes.
The corruption one is the only one I think is LOLWTF. The original building corruption really seemed to have some interesting potential. Now, think about using unit corruption on a big unit (200-300 hp). 20% of that is basically decreasing it's HP by 40-60. People will use it because there's no other way to spend the energy, but it's totally not interesting or exciting.
corruption doesn't reduce a units health by 20%.
It causes all damage against it to be increased by 20%
I know, I'm just trying to say that the effect of the corruption ability is like decreasing the HP of a big unit by 40-60 HP. Which is quite a lame ability with pretty much no potential for interesting use.
No it's effect isn't like that at all. They are totally different.
I.E. a zergling attacking a corrupted unit does 1 extra damage per hit. But an ultralisk attacking a corrupted unit does 5 extra damage per hit. It depends on the damage of the attacking units, not on the health of the corrupted unit.
what both of u are saying is the same thing. doing 40hp to a 200hp unit all at once, or doing the 40 in extra damage via ur attacking units - is 40 damage either way.
No, 40 damage instantly happens instantly. 40 damage via attacking units...doesn't. time is a factor here obviously.
A different example:
25 hydras attack a thor once. They do 300 damage. 25 hydras attack a corrupted thor once. They do 360 damage. That's 60 additional damage.
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
corsair doesnt exactly rape infinite mutas at all if were talking about muta scourge here.
mass corsair vs mass muta scourge, zerg can win if he microes it well. (look at some of the games on outsider for example)
The only things I disagreed with were HOW they made ultras stronger and brood lords weaker, but everything else was very good. Reducing sentry dmg is the smartest choice to nerfing force field effectiveness.
On May 07 2010 06:35 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Well, people will still use the corruptor ability because there's nothing else to spend the energy on. It's effectively like a secondary attack where the corruptor can do 50 damage or so every minute. Completely bleh.
Together with the reduced damage to massive units, the corruptor now kills corrupted Colossi around 5% faster than before. It's not worth the effort. The only thing it is good for is getting rid of that energy to prevent HTs from feedbacking you for 200 damage.
It'd be fun to see Zergs actually use the ability on their own units just to get rid of energy. That should be a hint to Blizz that nobody wants this shitty ability.
On May 07 2010 06:39 Kurr wrote: I think Ultralisks are more viable now. Eager to see if people will start using them a bit more. They are already extremely tough so I think the damage increase will be enough.
How are they more viable when their biggest issue was that they simply didn't get to attack at all because they couldn't catch up with the enemy?
This is definitivly not the way to go with Phoenixes. Make them counter muta, but make it require good CONTROL and SKILL to do so, not the ability to use a move command.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually, this way curruptors would rape colossi even harder.
yeah, 20% harder, meaning u kill ONE UNIT 20% faster. this is absolutely nothing. this is the worst ability ever in sc1 or sc2.
wait till they put auto-cast (fairie fire) like wc3.. lol..
So the next time someone gets the brilliant idea to make a huge thread about some mechanic they want introduced make sure that you think carefully about what mechanic it actually is that makes what you were looking for possible. Just so you oh I don't know accidentally ask for a unit to shoot while moving when you were actually looking for the unit to handle its transition between moving and shooting states differently.
On May 07 2010 05:25 Aurdon wrote: With the buff to Ultras and the nerf to Broodlords, will we see Ultralisk use in late game now?
Unlikely, since Ultralisks are still huge and will get stuck in tight chokes if you have several of them. Broodlords can ignore the silly ground terrain and still fire their awesome Broodling attacks and they have the "ranged attack" benefit as well.
On May 07 2010 06:42 ymirheim wrote: So the next time someone gets the brilliant idea to make a huge thread about some mechanic they want introduced make sure that you think carefully about what mechanic it actually is that makes what you were looking for possible. Just so you oh I don't know accidentally ask for a unit to shoot while moving when you were actually looking for the unit to handle its transition between moving and shooting states differently.
Haha it's so funny, it's like looking at blizz like an autistic child that really has to be told EXACTLY what needs to be done so they don't misunderstand something.
On May 07 2010 06:27 travis wrote: can someone explain to me the usefulness of the corruptor ability?
Target affected die faster to focus fire. But you understood that already. So i dont get ur question.
my question is what the point of using the single target ability is when any given target is going to die in jsut about the same amount of time regardless of if u use it
a unit dying 20% faster is NOTHING. it's the same as the spell doing damage for 20% of the unit's health. would u use a spell on a unit if it did 20% of it's health in damage? no one would, because that would be a massive waste of time/efficiency.
Actually, this way curruptors would rape colossi even harder.
yeah, 20% harder, meaning u kill ONE UNIT 20% faster. this is absolutely nothing. this is the worst ability ever in sc1 or sc2.
What if there are Colossi and you hit each one with it.
Does this ability increase the damage taken by the unit or increase the damage dealt by a Corruptor to that unit, because the patch description implies the former.
It's like in Brood War, when you could get +1 to Zealot attack, it made them far more useful against Zerglings because they killed them in 2 shots, reducing the time that they are doing damage (of course until they matched with +1 armor). This could potentially get Colossus off the field faster, although we'd really have to see it in action to see what the end results can be.
Although, if it only helps the Corruptor, then it kinda sucks.
Thats great that they fixed alot of hotkey issues. However they missed to fix the hotkey conflict with roaches and "set worker rallypoint", both on "R". This can cause a Zerg to unintentionally select the worker rallypoint when trying to build a Roach when there is no larva (just like with ventral sacs and overlords before this patch). Having drones sent out to randomly located rallypoints all over the map obviously isnt a good thing.
As far as I know noone even uses the "set worker rallypoint" hotkey since one can simply rightclick with mouse on minerals/gas to set the rallypoint, but if they insist on keeping a hotkey for it they should atleast change it to some key that isnt also a key for a unit.
jesus christ I play Zerg and I obviously really dislike these changes. Neural parasite 100 energy...REALLY? jesus fucking christ, not to mention phoenix moving attack is going to rape the **** out of overlords and shit now
god damn it oh well, at least ultras do 7 more damage now i'll totally make them -_- oh wait pathing
also WHAT THE FLYING fuck at the corrupter spell -- 20% increased damage to one unit for one HUNDRED energy when they spawn with 50? .........
I just tried out the thor and it's actually a huge buff in my opinion. No it doesn't one shot hydras anymore, but what situation in the game has you making only thors and nothing else? Anytime your other units do damage and reduce a hydras hp to 60 or below, the thors damage has been increased. This is only a nerf to the thor drop, but a buff in army vs army.... I welcome the change.
The hellion is also quite amazing now. You can kite queens and roaches very easily now. They feel much more responsive as well... this might just be intuition but it feels like they decelerate and attack more quickly than they did before. Not a moving shot but it feels more responsive.
On May 07 2010 06:44 Jyvblamo wrote: What have you done Lalush?!
Yep xD Anyhow, it's sad if Blizzard really did miss the whole point in his topic.. It's possible they just didn't want to add that "outdated buggy" animation cancelling back cause "it requires too much micro" or something, but at least that's a reason. I would be really worried if they just didn't get what Lalush wanted to say..
Idk why they didnt make curruptors able to attack and move also, makes perfect sense to have all units that can only attack air able to attack and move.
On May 07 2010 06:46 Vei wrote: jesus christ I play Zerg and I obviously really dislike these changes. Neural parasite 100 energy...REALLY? jesus fucking christ, not to mention phoenix moving attack is going to rape the **** out of overlords and shit now
god damn it oh well, at least ultras do 7 more damage now i'll totally make them -_- oh wait pathing
also WHAT THE FLYING fuck at the corrupter spell -- 20% increased damage to one unit for one HUNDRED energy when they spawn with 50? .........
the neural parasite nerf was really needed, infestors were beyond ridiculous, they're still really damn strong....
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
You could micro (spread out) against corsairs. Nothing you can do vs phoenixes, man.
This is the case with a lot of things in this game.
it's actually pretty simple. don't chase after the phoenix, if he has to move towards you, then you can shoot it before he micros away. the move-shot thing is only really good when the mutas chase the phoenix, and also helps against ovis/lifted units, though it really just makes it easier to use instead of more effective.
Okay since no one seems to actually THINK and just cry and scream OP... IN essence, the way the Phoenix works as of this patch actually is a weakness.
Do none of you actually micro your units according to health? If your muta leading the pack takes a couple shots while chasing what do you do?! Why, you move him to the back of the pack, he can't be focused down due to the way this mechanic works.
Ever think about more than one control group? Split your muta's into two groups and apply basic tactics with terms such as "Flank".
It's honestly not that big of an issue unless he somehow has equal or more phoenixes and ground units then your muta's and ground units, in which case you're doing it wrong as a zerg player as you should tech switch out of muta's at that point!
On May 07 2010 05:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Did anybody else have the problem of having their keyboard TURNED OFF when they played a game? I lost my first placement match because my hotkeys were off, and my Menu Bar was conveniently unclickable. Never happened before the patch (before the reset) >.>
I had one game where no hotkeys worked at first. Alt-tabbed out and back in and everything worked again. Didn't coincide with a patch though.
On May 07 2010 06:37 Captain Peabody wrote: The micro in the second video above is terrible. Running the Phoenix past the Mutas repeatedly just lets the Mutas constantly pound on them. There's pretty much no difference between what the guy in the video does, and what would happen if you just attack-moved...except you can't focus fire at all, so it's actually worse.
The proper way to Phoenix micro is to run the Phoenix around just out of range of the Mutas, so that the Phoenix can attack them without being attacked themselves. THIS way, the Phoenix are quite deadly.
Really, the fact that Phoenix can now destroy Mutas is really not a problem in my book, since it's specifically designed to counter them. Now, if we hear that the Phoenix is way too powerful against Corruptors, then I'll be worried...
You're a Protoss player aren't you?
In SC1, corsairs are regarded as anti-muta and anti-scourge units, but with decent micro the Zerg player can win a battle vs Corsairs. Phoenix vs muta however, is impossible to win for the muta side unless he flanks and has a lot more mutas. Phoenixes are very effective at killing mutas but they also are faster AND have longer range than mutas. This screams OP.
Don't you see? This effectively makes mutas completely useless in ZvP
On May 07 2010 06:37 Captain Peabody wrote: The micro in the second video above is terrible. Running the Phoenix past the Mutas repeatedly just lets the Mutas constantly pound on them. There's pretty much no difference between what the guy in the video does, and what would happen if you just attack-moved...except you can't focus fire at all, so it's actually worse.
The proper way to Phoenix micro is to run the Phoenix around just out of range of the Mutas, so that the Phoenix can attack them without being attacked themselves. THIS way, the Phoenix are quite deadly.
Really, the fact that Phoenix can now destroy Mutas is really not a problem in my book, since it's specifically designed to counter them. Now, if we hear that the Phoenix is way too powerful against Corruptors, then I'll be worried...
Corruptors do like 14 to phoenixes and phoenixes do 10, and corruptors aren't as slow anymore.
I really doubt this is going to make them very useful against any armored air.
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
You could micro (spread out) against corsairs. Nothing you can do vs phoenixes, man.
This is the case with a lot of things in this game.
Even if you spread out against corsairs, that only prolonged their eventual death. Same thing here: Even if you split up, it will only prolong their death. However, because Phoenixes don't do splash, you can flank them without sacrificing an entire group of Mutas.
On May 07 2010 06:37 Captain Peabody wrote: The micro in the second video above is terrible. Running the Phoenix past the Mutas repeatedly just lets the Mutas constantly pound on them. There's pretty much no difference between what the guy in the video does, and what would happen if you just attack-moved...except you can't focus fire at all, so it's actually worse.
The proper way to Phoenix micro is to run the Phoenix around just out of range of the Mutas, so that the Phoenix can attack them without being attacked themselves. THIS way, the Phoenix are quite deadly.
Really, the fact that Phoenix can now destroy Mutas is really not a problem in my book, since it's specifically designed to counter them. Now, if we hear that the Phoenix is way too powerful against Corruptors, then I'll be worried...
You're a Protoss player aren't you?
In SC1, corsairs are regarded as anti-muta and anti-scourge units, but with decent micro the Zerg player can with a battle vs Corsairs. Phoenix vs muta however, is impossible to win for the muta side unless he flanks and has a lot more mutas.
Don't you see? This effectively makes mutas completely useless in ZvP
It's called hard-counters. I don't see you complaining about how Siege Tanks are auto-raped by Immortals?
not to rage any more than I already have but now I can't even take on planetary fortresses any more =| thx corrupter nerf! now i'll never make you again except to deal with colossus and in 2v2, carriers/bc's.
... Honestly, does Blizzard even understand what the community wants? :\ Jesus christ, I never thought it was possible to turn SC2 into an EVEN MORE easy mode 1a game. Edit: oops, wrong video
I got this error while installing the patch. Can anyone help me?
The patch "enUS\Mods\Core.SC2Mod\enUS.SC2Data\LocalizedData\GameHotkeys.txt" could not be applied. (Invalid source file size: expected 13615, actual 13620.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate:TCApply)
The infestor nerfs were very noticeable. Not getting them early enough to save up energy for that first neural parasite can get you killed. Ultralisks are still suffering from the same problems I almost died using them just like before.
On May 07 2010 06:51 AsianEcksDragon wrote: So is mech viable now?
Extremely viable vs zerg now. Thors unable to be mc'd (til late game and they get the upgrade), overall dps increase in a mixed army of marauders and hellions. Yes, they used to 1 shot hydras, but now if they are missing anymore than 20 hp it is a damage increase. Mech has always been viable in ran mirror.... and now probably moreso as the thor is far more effective vs marauders now (always took 2 shots to kill them, now those 2 shots come faster).
Versus toss I'd say mech is less viable. No cannon means immortals will be better vs them.
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro. If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
not sure about that but how u wanna kill phoenix with mutas now? since the phoenix are much faster its impossible against a good player unless u have like 4 times more mutas...
but i wont whine until i played with and against it =)
Phoenix is supposed to be hard counter to mutas..Corsair group could rape infinite mutas.. This moving thing wont work against anything else..and phoenix itself isnt good against non light air
You could micro (spread out) against corsairs. Nothing you can do vs phoenixes, man.
This is the case with a lot of things in this game.
Even if you spread out against corsairs, that only prolonged their eventual death. Same thing here: Even if you split up, it will only prolong their death. However, because Phoenixes don't do splash, you can flank them without sacrificing an entire group of Mutas.
On May 07 2010 06:46 Ovi wrote: Thats great that they fixed alot of hotkey issues. However they missed to fix the hotkey conflict with roaches and "set worker rallypoint", both on "R". This can cause a Zerg to unintentionally select the worker rallypoint when trying to build a Roach when there is no larva (just like with ventral sacs and overlords before this patch). Having drones sent out to randomly located rallypoints all over the map obviously isnt a good thing.
As far as I know noone even uses the "set worker rallypoint" hotkey since one can simply rightclick with mouse on minerals/gas to set the rallypoint, but if they insist on keeping a hotkey for it they should atleast change it to some key that isnt also a key for a unit.
Or alternatively they could just let us set whatever keys we want to whatever command and then we can only blame ourselves if there are problems with it. Took them ages to finally allow it in warcraft via text file probably because everyone was using warkeys for dota and wc3.
Beggars belief that a modern game cant handle assigning extra mouse buttons and keys.
On May 07 2010 06:55 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I got this error while installing the patch. Can anyone help me?
The patch "enUS\Mods\Core.SC2Mod\enUS.SC2Data\LocalizedData\GameHotkeys.txt" could not be applied. (Invalid source file size: expected 13615, actual 13620.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate:TCApply)
You probably changed your hotkeys and for some reason SC2 seems to care even thout it shouldn't matter at all. If you backed up your files, restore them, if not, consider a reinstall.
I'd suggest that all Protoss users abuse the phoenix until Blizzard hopefully adds a "a move" or patrol move to the attack micro. All in all it's a step in the right direction!
Another point: I've been wondering wether the new players( Browders talk of mothers being able to sit down and play the game) care about these micro details we want to be added.
If they'd have a difficult micro function for every unit to separate the s-class gamers skillwise and even added the high ground advantage from sc1 would it make a difference to the mothers? It would to most of us here on TL but would it destroy the gaming experience for the new players who are gathered together in the lower divisions?
We want the game to be more difficult and have the same thrill that broodwar could give us with the endless skill ceiling. In my opinion there would be no harm to the new players in adding difficulty. It is what gave broodwar it's long life, it can do the same for starcraft 2.
There's a genuine challenge in choosing the most difficult of strategical games and not the easier ones. I think we can find a common motivation among the Starcraft players here. The quest for the deepest and most difficult challenge. Anything else might feel like cheating yourself and choosing the easy way out and not the most rewarding one.
On May 07 2010 06:55 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I got this error while installing the patch. Can anyone help me?
The patch "enUS\Mods\Core.SC2Mod\enUS.SC2Data\LocalizedData\GameHotkeys.txt" could not be applied. (Invalid source file size: expected 13615, actual 13620.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate:TCApply)
You probably changed your hotkeys and for some reason SC2 seems to care even thout it shouldn't matter at all. If you backed up your files, restore them, if not, consider a reinstall.
Thanks. I suspected that it was the hotkey changing. I did the bw layout for location saving and recalling. Blizzard really hates bw players -.-
On May 07 2010 06:28 Sublimis wrote: "du... praktikant-jonas, kan du fixa det här med moving shot på phoenix? ska vara klart om en timme, ah grymt tack tja"
Damnit I've been loling at this for 5 min now. I guess I'm easily entertained. Imagine Dustin Browder with his huge bald head uttering these words, i have no idea why he would be fluent in swedish, but still.
Holy shit people STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS THE SAME FOR COLLOSI AND THOR. Even if the dmg ratio is the same IT NOW TAKES TWO SHOTS TO KILL UNITS THAT USED TO TAKE ONE. That is very significant.
Downloading the new patch, I love the zerg changes, specially the fact that the broodlord damage did not got nerfed, buffed ultras, new corruptors, with the survey 3 data I thought the overseer change would be in this patch but oh well. Can't wait to play :D
bc buff makes tvp easier, but hardcore thor nerf makes tvz weird. Basically any money that used to go into thors now goes into ravens instead, no point in making thors with them being this useless (can't 1-shot hydras, spell attack basically unuseable).
I don't like the new corruption, the old one was a lot more interesting and viable imo. The unit's attack buff is odd to me though. Sentries are weaker, which makes fighting zerg air as protoss a lot harder imo.
I wonder if the infestor/corruptor change is for zerg to deal with the ravens terran now has to make instead of thors? Seems like tvz is now identical to bw tvz: mass mnm + ravens ~ mass mnm + sv.
Colos nerf seems weird to me, seems like it makes pvz a lot harder. Basically no reason to use them vs terran at all now, and basically stalkers/immortal are the superior unit in pvp as well. I don't know why you'd make any colos anymore.
Thors seem useless across the board as well too now. I used them a lot in tvz and sometimes in tvt, but they weren't that useful in tvt. They're now useless for tvz, and their weaker attack and uselessness of their spell makes them useless in tvt. They were already useless in tvp.
The raven buff seems like it makes tvt completely focused on excusively air now. It'll be so easy to mass rape large quantities of tanks or especially bio now with seeker.
I don't understand the nerf on sunks/spores at all. I mean, I don't see what problem existed with them that this change fixes at all.
Neural seems useless now. Fungal was generally always better before, but now it seems always better, unless they expect terran to go pure bc vs z for some reason.
On May 07 2010 07:04 On_Slaught wrote: Holy shit people STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS THE SAME FOR COLLOSI AND THOR. Even if the dmg ratio is the same IT NOW TAKES TWO SHOTS TO KILL UNITS THAT USED TO TAKE ONE. That is very significant.
It's also significant that anytime you mix the thor with other units the thors damage increases. Overkill has been significantly reduced when the thor is in a balanced army.
On May 07 2010 07:07 Nightmarjoo wrote: I don't understand the nerf on sunks/spores at all. I mean, I don't see what problem existed with them that this change fixes at all.
fe with mass spine crawler defense zvp is now probably next to impossible on maps with backdoors. I like that btw
To add one of my observations: Thor and Collossus are now more effective against Immortal because of their firing speed. Less of their damage is reduced by hardened shield. And one note for the Phoenix. I presume, it's gonna be a lot stronger against Mutalisks, on the other hand, against Terran, there is really no change, since Viking has superior range.
"splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage."
A.K.A. Blizz completely botched it and simply won't admit it.
Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch.
On May 07 2010 07:04 On_Slaught wrote: Holy shit people STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS THE SAME FOR COLLOSI AND THOR. Even if the dmg ratio is the same IT NOW TAKES TWO SHOTS TO KILL UNITS THAT USED TO TAKE ONE. That is very significant.
And it takes less time to kill marines with colossus than it used to.
It's not the same but it's not all bad.
Not sure about colossus but I would definitely say that it's a nerf to the thor. Thor drop used to be very, very strong against zerg because hydras did so poorly against it and roaches or lings couldn't take out the medivac. Hydras should do a good job against that threat now.
"Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch."
Ultralisks dont suck because their damage was low...they suck because they're T3, huge, slow, but mostly because they're late-game melee. Thors are so much better in comparison (great Anti air, ranged attack, and a high damage devastating ability).
To make Ultras useful, they need an ability, like some kind of war elephant-type charge that damages and pushes units (imagine using it to split up an MMM ball).
On May 07 2010 06:48 Fayth wrote: the neural parasite nerf was really needed, infestors were beyond ridiculous, they're still really damn strong....
i challenge that statement... an (immobile) 90 HP unit with the shitty armored attribute [while getting the same attack prio as any unit with a weapon] wasn't that much of a threat. it's also easy to spot (easier than e.g. a ghost anyways) yet despite all this quite expensive.
these upgrades might just have killed NP and made corruptors the new weapon against big, juicy targets.
In an effort to better explain changes being made within the StarCraft II beta, we wanted to establish the Situation Report in which we take the time to share a little more insight into the balance choices we make and how we believe these changes will play out. We are incredibly dedicated to bringing you the quality and high standards that you expect of a Blizzard game and StarCraft II, and hope that by sharing more of our thoughts with you, that we can continue to both receive great feedback, but continue to see great matches within the game.
We have been working hard over the last many weeks to try to make the races as fun as possible to play. We are seeing win/loss ratios (when you factor in skill) of as little as 6% between each of the races. This is a great place for us to be during a beta, when players are still learning the races and we are still making a lot of changes. In general we believe that Terrans are still a little weak against Protoss. The other match ups are too close to call and (according to our current numbers) are within 1% win/loss. We are also getting more and more excited about what we are seeing in our mirror matches. Terran vs. Terran is a very diverse match for example and we are starting to see some really nice diversity in Zerg vs. Zerg which is a huge win for us and the community considering how stale that match was when we started the Beta.
We’ve made a significant amount of changes within the latest beta patch 11 and wanted to give a brief overview on these changes.
Splash- Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
We have changed how splash works for several units across the game to make it always hit the dead center of the target unit. Previously splash was centered on the front of the target unit. This makes splash generally more effective, though against certain large targets (buildings, Thors, Ultralisks) you will now not get any splash damage since the splash radius will be contained entirely within the radius of the large target.
Battlecruiser -The build time has been decreased from 110 to 90.
We are trying to make this ship a little more useful. In reality this unit is easily countered by Corruptor, Void Ray, or Viking which may already be in play by the time it arrives, but we think it might see a little more play if it’s just easier to build.
Hellion- The range has been increased from 5 to 6.
This is not an actual change to the area effect of the weapon. The weapon was always range 6, but it would only acquire targets at range 5 so it would get a little bit of splash that would hit enemies behind its initial target. By making the weapon range 6 it is easier to shoot and run from enemy units. It does make the splash a little less useful if you are just using the “attack move” command.
Raven- Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.- Splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.- upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.
We are hoping to see some more Seeker missiles without unbalancing the unit. At the same time we want to reduce the effectiveness of Seeker missile in 2v2 games where mass Ravens have (on occasion) been a problem.
Siege Tank- Life increased from 150 to 160.
Siege Tanks are seeing good use in several match-ups but we still think they could be a little tougher so they can maybe get in one more shot during big fights.
Thor- Ground damage decreased from 45 to 30- Ground rate of fire improved from 1.93 to 1.28.- Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light).- 250mm Strike Cannons are now an upgrade at the Factory Tech Lab; research now costs 150/150 and 110 seconds; energy cost increased from 100 to 150.
The damage change reduces the Thor’s opening burst, which will mean that some units will be able to shoot a little longer before being destroyed. The increase in rate of fire means the damage-per-second remains the same, but it does change a few relationships. Thors are no longer as effective against Roaches (for example) without fire support from Marauders.
The Thor Strike Cannons have become an upgrade to try to help out the Ultralisk, who is countered so hard by this attack that we see very few Ultralisks in Terran vs. Zerg. This is (of course) not enough to really change that relationship, but we have some more plans for the Ultralisk in the next patch.
The anti-air changes make Thors a little more clear in their role as an anti-light AA weapon which gives more value to Vikings and Marines.
Archon- The splash radius has been increased from 0.8 to 1.
This minor buff to the Archon makes it a little bit more useful but doesn’t really change a lot of its core relationships. We still view the Archon as a recycle for a High Templar who is out of mana and not a core unit that you will build unless you are facing very specific opposition (like mass Mutalisks for example).
Colossus- The damage has been decreased from 20 to 15. The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65.
The changes to the Colossus damage and rate of fire are similar to the changes to the Thor. They reduce the burst damage from the Colossus so fewer units will die in the initial blast and get to shoot a little bit longer before they are hit by more blasts. The damage is lower, but the damage per second is DPS is the same.
Phoenix - Can now attack while moving.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
Sentry- The damage has been decreased from 8 to 6.
We are seeing a lot of Force Fields which we really, really like. We don’t want to see fewer Force Fields, but we do want to see a higher cost for those Force Fields. By reducing Sentry damage we believe that Protoss players will have to be more careful about the number of Sentry they make.
Broodlord- Life has been decreased from 275 to 225. Armor has been decreased from 2 to 1.
Broodlords are awesome. They needed to be a little weaker. They should still be pretty scary.
Corruptor- Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive), speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531, Corruption ability redesigned: Single target. Increases damage taken by 20%. Lasts 30 seconds. Costs 100 energy. Range 6. Cannot target structures.
All of these changes are a buff to the Corruptor. You will pay less gas for a similar level of Corruptor fire power. The Corruptor is faster and more able to keep up with your Mutalisks. In addition its special ability has changed. You no longer use Corruptors just to stun important enemy buildings but you can weaken important enemy units on the battlefield to make them more vulnerable to attack by both your air and ground units.
Infestor- Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit, research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds, can now target Air units, energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.
Spine Crawler- The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until he can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch.
What’s Next?
We are working hard on a few issues for the next patch. Obviously we are going to be playing this patch with the community to see what we broke with all of these changes. We are also going to continue to evaluate the Ultralisk and the Zerg in general to make sure they have enough choices and options on all of their units.
Nice patch. Big buffs to the Thor, now that it doesn't overkill as much against lings.
I approve of the direction of the changes to the Brood Lord and Ultralisk. We'll have to see if the magnitude of the changes proves to be adequate.
There's only one thing I don't quite agree with, and that's the Corruption spell 'redesign'- they might as well have said Corruption spell removed. In fact, that would've been a big buff for Corruptors, because instead of having an energy bar that does nothing, they would lose their energy bar and become immune to feedback.
I don't see anything wrong with the patch guys! Zerg got owned this patch because at pro level, zerg was dominating. Look at the korean servers; if you know how to play this is balanced so far. I want to see replays of pvz at pro level when protoss uses phoenix. Otherwise, what is everyone crying about?
You actually think Blizzard looks at anything lower than 10plat -if that- when trying to debate nerfs and buffs? x.x
I am surprised they didn't touch on the vortex, surround glitch with colisus.
In an effort to better explain changes being made within the StarCraft II beta, we wanted to establish the Situation Report in which we take the time to share a little more insight into the balance choices we make and how we believe these changes will play out. We are incredibly dedicated to bringing you the quality and high standards that you expect of a Blizzard game and StarCraft II, and hope that by sharing more of our thoughts with you, that we can continue to both receive great feedback, but continue to see great matches within the game.
We have been working hard over the last many weeks to try to make the races as fun as possible to play. We are seeing win/loss ratios (when you factor in skill) of as little as 6% between each of the races. This is a great place for us to be during a beta, when players are still learning the races and we are still making a lot of changes. In general we believe that Terrans are still a little weak against Protoss. The other match ups are too close to call and (according to our current numbers) are within 1% win/loss. We are also getting more and more excited about what we are seeing in our mirror matches. Terran vs. Terran is a very diverse match for example and we are starting to see some really nice diversity in Zerg vs. Zerg which is a huge win for us and the community considering how stale that match was when we started the Beta.
We’ve made a significant amount of changes within the latest beta patch 11 and wanted to give a brief overview on these changes.
Splash- Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
We have changed how splash works for several units across the game to make it always hit the dead center of the target unit. Previously splash was centered on the front of the target unit. This makes splash generally more effective, though against certain large targets (buildings, Thors, Ultralisks) you will now not get any splash damage since the splash radius will be contained entirely within the radius of the large target.
Battlecruiser -The build time has been decreased from 110 to 90.
We are trying to make this ship a little more useful. In reality this unit is easily countered by Corruptor, Void Ray, or Viking which may already be in play by the time it arrives, but we think it might see a little more play if it’s just easier to build.
Hellion- The range has been increased from 5 to 6.
This is not an actual change to the area effect of the weapon. The weapon was always range 6, but it would only acquire targets at range 5 so it would get a little bit of splash that would hit enemies behind its initial target. By making the weapon range 6 it is easier to shoot and run from enemy units. It does make the splash a little less useful if you are just using the “attack move” command.
Raven- Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.- Splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.- upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.
We are hoping to see some more Seeker missiles without unbalancing the unit. At the same time we want to reduce the effectiveness of Seeker missile in 2v2 games where mass Ravens have (on occasion) been a problem.
Siege Tank- Life increased from 150 to 160.
Siege Tanks are seeing good use in several match-ups but we still think they could be a little tougher so they can maybe get in one more shot during big fights.
Thor- Ground damage decreased from 45 to 30- Ground rate of fire improved from 1.93 to 1.28.- Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light).- 250mm Strike Cannons are now an upgrade at the Factory Tech Lab; research now costs 150/150 and 110 seconds; energy cost increased from 100 to 150.
The damage change reduces the Thor’s opening burst, which will mean that some units will be able to shoot a little longer before being destroyed. The increase in rate of fire means the damage-per-second remains the same, but it does change a few relationships. Thors are no longer as effective against Roaches (for example) without fire support from Marauders.
The Thor Strike Cannons have become an upgrade to try to help out the Ultralisk, who is countered so hard by this attack that we see very few Ultralisks in Terran vs. Zerg. This is (of course) not enough to really change that relationship, but we have some more plans for the Ultralisk in the next patch.
The anti-air changes make Thors a little more clear in their role as an anti-light AA weapon which gives more value to Vikings and Marines.
Archon- The splash radius has been increased from 0.8 to 1.
This minor buff to the Archon makes it a little bit more useful but doesn’t really change a lot of its core relationships. We still view the Archon as a recycle for a High Templar who is out of mana and not a core unit that you will build unless you are facing very specific opposition (like mass Mutalisks for example).
Colossus- The damage has been decreased from 20 to 15. The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65.
The changes to the Colossus damage and rate of fire are similar to the changes to the Thor. They reduce the burst damage from the Colossus so fewer units will die in the initial blast and get to shoot a little bit longer before they are hit by more blasts. The damage is lower, but the damage per second is DPS is the same.
Phoenix - Can now attack while moving.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
Sentry- The damage has been decreased from 8 to 6.
We are seeing a lot of Force Fields which we really, really like. We don’t want to see fewer Force Fields, but we do want to see a higher cost for those Force Fields. By reducing Sentry damage we believe that Protoss players will have to be more careful about the number of Sentry they make.
Broodlord- Life has been decreased from 275 to 225. Armor has been decreased from 2 to 1.
Broodlords are awesome. They needed to be a little weaker. They should still be pretty scary.
Corruptor- Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive), speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531, Corruption ability redesigned: Single target. Increases damage taken by 20%. Lasts 30 seconds. Costs 100 energy. Range 6. Cannot target structures.
All of these changes are a buff to the Corruptor. You will pay less gas for a similar level of Corruptor fire power. The Corruptor is faster and more able to keep up with your Mutalisks. In addition its special ability has changed. You no longer use Corruptors just to stun important enemy buildings but you can weaken important enemy units on the battlefield to make them more vulnerable to attack by both your air and ground units.
Infestor- Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit, research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds, can now target Air units, energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.
Spine Crawler- The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until he can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch.
What’s Next?
We are working hard on a few issues for the next patch. Obviously we are going to be playing this patch with the community to see what we broke with all of these changes. We are also going to continue to evaluate the Ultralisk and the Zerg in general to make sure they have enough choices and options on all of their units.
The corrupt ability One way to make it a bit more useful would be if it could be used against any unit and buildings. That way if you wanted to snipe an expo you'd be able to do it 20% faster if you bring a corruptor with your army, which is not bad. Not to mention should it ever come to a base race and you have a few corruptors they would actually be useful and not just idle around while your ground units are doing all the damage. That way it would be pretty good to make a one or two corruptors just for this ability if you happen to have a spire up and not only use it as an AA-unit.
NP might have needed a nerf, but I think Blizzard has overdone it. It requires a long, costly research AND got an energy raise.
also, Slightly offtopic but why can't I post in the battle.net SC2 forums?
I login with my account attached to my SC2 key but, "The account you are logged in with is not able to post on this forum. Please log out and select a different account if you want to post. "
Just did some really quick math. It takes a Colossus longer to kill Zerglings now, but they kill Marines and Marauders faster. 30 damager per attack around = 5 rounds to kill a Marauder = 8.25 seconds. Before today, it was 40 damage per attack round = 4 rounds to kill a Marauder = 8.8 seconds. It seems as though the Colossus is buffed against some units, nerfed against others. So, as seems to be the general consensus, the Colossus is more or less the same as it was before, but more of a well-rounded high-tier unit. Which I think is cool.
Situation report. Blizzard explains why they made the changes that they did.
OH SMACK! This is going to get interesting.
Oh, this was interesting. I disagree with them about the changes to the thor and colos though, I feel like the changes are more radical than they suggest. And I definitely think the corruptor's new ability is a lot less useful than its original one still. I haven't tried out phoenixes, but I don't think the small change they made is really that significant off-hand.
On May 07 2010 07:19 Seltsam wrote: Just did some really quick math. It takes a Colossus longer to kill Zerglings now, but they kill Marines and Marauders faster. 30 damager per attack around = 5 rounds to kill a Marauder = 8.25 seconds. Before today, it was 40 damage per attack round = 4 rounds to kill a Marauder = 8.8 seconds. It seems as though the Colossus is buffed against some units, nerfed against others. So, as seems to be the general consensus, the Colossus is more or less the same as it was before, but more of a well-rounded high-tier unit. Which I think is cool.
i think it's a good trade off at least you have the chance to micro around the 5th shot and it requires more colossus before reaching that critical mass where it just obliterates tons of units in the first volley.
Zealot 10 -> 10 (no difference) Stalker 12 -> 13 Immortal 3 -> 4 Collosus 5 (theoretical) -> 6 (post patch colossus) (Pre-patch collosus would kill a tank in 4 hits)
The only significant change would be against immortals where they take 4 hits instead of 3 which is quite considerably when you consider the immortals relatively slow attack speed.
On May 07 2010 06:55 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I got this error while installing the patch. Can anyone help me?
The patch "enUS\Mods\Core.SC2Mod\enUS.SC2Data\LocalizedData\GameHotkeys.txt" could not be applied. (Invalid source file size: expected 13615, actual 13620.) If this problem persists, you may be able to solve it by uninstalling and then reinstalling the game. If you are unable to correct this problem, please contact Blizzard Technical Support. (BNUpdate:TCApply)
You probably changed your hotkeys and for some reason SC2 seems to care even thout it shouldn't matter at all. If you backed up your files, restore them, if not, consider a reinstall.
u jus have to reopen the hotkey.txt file of the mpq and put all the originals hotkeys and add that archive to the mpq file
I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure. Keep in mind they don't attack ground and their ability to lift units make them to stop.
For those who complained about Zerg diversity: mutas supported by hydras&infestors on creep would surely hard counter phoenixes. And what about vikings supported by marines&ghosts? (to set an examples of air units against phoenix)
@Twitchzor: Sorry, but your post failed the moment it claimed "Speed increase" referred to attack speed rather than movement speed >.> When they mention Attack Speed, they say something along the lines of "Attack rate increased from 2 to 1.5"
We have changed how splash works for several units across the game to make it always hit the dead center of the target unit. Previously splash was centered on the front of the target unit. This makes splash generally more effective, though against certain large targets (buildings, Thors, Ultralisks) you will now not get any splash damage since the splash radius will be contained entirely within the radius of the large target.
wow hellion still cant fire while moving? No correction to the hellion showing it fires but does no damage when micro'd too quickly, I guess they just figured lets just up the range and call it fixed lol. I find all the tweaks to air a little confusing, buffing the BC's, phoenix, changing thors air damage, nerfing Broodlords, infestor can take flying but is greatly nerfed overall, corrupter buffed, sentry attack nerfed 25% (toss is gonna be screwed vs muta rushes I think), just find they picked weird stuff to change. It actually was beginning to feel like balance was getting close, I think this change is going to affect build orders more than anything. I know some of my builds are going to change for sure! Orb is going to be pissed and TLO isn't going to like what they did to his infestors. It really seems like they are trying to encourage much more air to air play.
On May 07 2010 07:26 EnderSC wrote: I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure.
Keep in mind the don't attack ground and their ability to lift units make them to stop. For those who complained about Zerg diversity: mutas supported by hydras&infestors on creep would surely hard counter phoenixes. And what about vikings supported by marines&ghosts? (to set an examples of air units against phoenix)
mutas supported by hidras infestor? am i the only one that lacks gas even with 3 bases? You just cant go muta hidra infestor, its not possible.
On May 07 2010 07:26 EnderSC wrote: I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure.
Vikings don't care about Phoenixes dancing around, since they have more than 2x their range. Similarly, Corruptors, who just got a nice damage buff, don't care either, since they have 1.5x the Phoenix's range.
I don't like this idea that Archons are only a way to recycle Templar that are out of mana.
Perhaps Blizzard could make the archon's morph rate dependent on sum of the remaining mana in the templars you use? So that they would merge almost instantly if both full on mana, but take something like 40 seconds to morph when fully drained?
On May 07 2010 07:26 EnderSC wrote: I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure.
Vikings don't care about Phoenixes dancing around, since they have more than 2x their range. Similarly, Corruptors, who just got a nice damage buff, don't care either, since they have 1.5x the Phoenix's range.
Indeed.(Even if the fire rate is slower for those two units than the phoenixes rate, isn't it?)
I don't see why some are whining so much about this then.
Cant' wait to see the micro. DO you have a beta key ? :D
Hey guys, you can use Corruptors, the Anti-Air unit for Zerg, to kill Phoenixes just as easily before. People just didn't realize it because they were blinded by how easy it was to kill Phoenixes pre-patch with Mutas >.>
Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
It's pretty sad how the muta's suck compared to pheonixs. Now with it's high movement speed as well as moving shot, pheonixs are only countered by hydras and sporecrawlers. Zerg air will be wrecked by them.
On May 07 2010 07:37 lololol wrote: Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
A Phoenix doesn't need to fight a Corruptor. A Phoenix can run away and go kill useful Zerg things like Overlords, Queens, Drones, and anything you leave on the ground.
A Corruptor can... slowly chase the Phoenix, or go Corrupt a build-- Oh wait! No, now they can use 100 energy to Corrupt a single... unit..?
Q: Do you think you will add any new units (or take any out) before release or is the current unit roster definite? A: I doubt we will cut units but I expect that we will make some changes to current units. The Phoenix and Corruptor are currently being evaluated and may see some changes in the next few weeks.
When I read this last week on the dev chat. I was hoping the changes aimed at the Phoenix would be more geared at making them more viable in a variety of MU's, not just making them better against Mutas :\
maybe it was just weird or just me, however playing a game against the new ultralisk made me see something shocking, a gap a 2lings couldnt fit through side by side the ultralisk fit through on kulas, i then get army surrounded naturally deciding to spam FF on one side, except the ultras seemed to ignore that it was there and keep going through
is this just me or is something fucking wrong here?
On May 07 2010 07:37 lololol wrote: Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
You just got an actual moving attack and you're still whining. Considering your nick i will just take it you're a Trololololol.
On May 07 2010 07:28 Reborn8u wrote: It really seems like they are trying to encourage much more air to air play.
Well they certainly aren't encouraging more air play in ZvP at least, with the Phoenix now owning Mutas and all.
Lol? Because people always open up Phoenix?
The problem was that Phoenix sucked against air. Critical mass of mutas? Too bad. Now an intelligent player will be able to deal with air much better, as opposed to just dealing with the crappy anti air we've had for ages.
Vikings and Corruptors kick ass. Phoenix needed loving. They were more useful against ground units (LOL)
Yes, lets make 8 corruptors to kill his phoenix!! Then what the hell are you doing with them (unless you P opponent is retarded and goes colossi instead of storm). Also the NP need to mind control the unit X seconds whether the infestor is killed or not. Unless if you spent 300 gas and 200 seconds you are garantize some type of usefulness
On May 07 2010 07:35 Zeke50100 wrote: Hey guys, you can use Corruptors, the Anti-Air unit for Zerg, to kill Phoenixes just as easily before. People just didn't realize it because they were blinded by how easy it was to kill Phoenixes pre-patch with Mutas >.>
Are you a troll? I think so. Or you are plain dumb. One or the other.
On May 07 2010 06:08 Zeke50100 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
You guys complained about no moving shot and said the lack of it meant you can never overtake an enemy who pre-emptively took air superiority. Now you do. Simple as that.
Oh, and if you can perfectly measure your movements to not get hit, then you would be able to do SC1-style moving shot anyway. Phoenixes DO move faster than Mutas, you know >.> You actually have to think, unlike some people seem to believe (LOLOL 1 APM = INVINCIBLE PHOENIXES, YOU DON'T NEED TO THINK AT ALL!)
i love this post.
i think all the changes are pretty awesome except for the zerg up/rooting. whats up with that? they already took an hour to settle in.
On May 07 2010 07:26 EnderSC wrote: I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure.
Keep in mind the don't attack ground and their ability to lift units make them to stop. For those who complained about Zerg diversity: mutas supported by hydras&infestors on creep would surely hard counter phoenixes. And what about vikings supported by marines&ghosts? (to set an examples of air units against phoenix)
mutas supported by hidras infestor? am i the only one that lacks gas even with 3 bases? You just cant go muta hidra infestor, its not possible.
Ok. I need a beta key :D
From what i have seen, SC2 armies can be very diverse and you don't need to mass a type of unit to be effective. For exemple, instead of having 12mutas, couldn't you have 5mutas, 5hydras, 2infestors? (if gas is the problem) As there is less APM spent on macro, you can focus a lot more on army composition & micro, don't you?
But I could be sooo wrong! A lot of players complained about the mass roach mass hydra boring zerg so...
I'm wondering how much the colossus dps has improved vs multiple targets. Its going to be extremely difficult to kill zerg who've turtled islands! There air is stronger and they can take yours from long range.
On May 07 2010 07:37 lololol wrote: Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
You just got an actual moving attack and you're still whining. Considering your nick i will just take it you're a Trololololol.
Considering your post i will just take it you're an idiot.
I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
On May 07 2010 07:26 EnderSC wrote: I guess it isn't so viable to go air against protoss. At least for the duration of patch 11... But counters can be found for sure.
Keep in mind the don't attack ground and their ability to lift units make them to stop. For those who complained about Zerg diversity: mutas supported by hydras&infestors on creep would surely hard counter phoenixes. And what about vikings supported by marines&ghosts? (to set an examples of air units against phoenix)
mutas supported by hidras infestor? am i the only one that lacks gas even with 3 bases? You just cant go muta hidra infestor, its not possible.
Ok. I need a beta key :D
From what i have seen, SC2 armies can be very diverse and you don't need to mass a type of unit to be effective. For exemple, instead of having 12mutas, couldn't you have 5mutas, 5hydras, 2infestors? (if gas is the problem) As there is less APM spent on macro, you can focus a lot more on army composition & micro, don't you?
But I could be sooo wrong! A lot of players complained about the mass roach mass hydra boring zerg so...
Wait till you get in the BETA and meet Mr. Marauder
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
I feel with you, man. You have to decide whether to build stalkers to own the mutas, or a few phoenixes. Man, what a pickle!
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers responding properly.
This looks pretty interesting... PvZ might see a lot more Pheonix usage. Now 1 Pheonix into 1-void ray might seem rather viable. The sentry nerf is annoying, but I've always seen FF and GS as the main reasons for the unit.
Maybe I've being overly optimistic, but I think more mech play is going to possible. Or some sort of bio-mech: mass marines and tanks. Think that PvT will become more interesting now.
anyways, it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the higher levels. Personally i think the game should be a little more interesting, especially because phoenixes can now fire while moving (ah hah, Nony will have fun with this ;D).
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
toss still has dare I say the best and most versatile early/mid aa. especially with the one lacking unit phoenix getting a buff like this. Void rays and stalkers do the job as always and sentries can at least contribute.
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
On May 07 2010 07:49 TyranoS_NiveK wrote: This looks pretty interesting... PvZ might see a lot more Pheonix usage. Now 1 Pheonix into 1-void ray might seem rather viable. The sentry nerf is annoying, but I've always seen FF and GS as the main reasons for the unit.
Maybe I've being overly optimistic, but I think more mech play is going to possible. Or some sort of bio-mech: mass marines and tanks. Think that PvT will become more interesting now.
Mech and bio-mech has always been viable. In all matchups.
Corrected an issue that was causing the Polish language client to crash when receiving the "player is no longer being revealed” message.
Corrected incorrect battle.net links on multiple language clients pages.
Corrected an issue where the Zealot was using an US English voice over in the Korean language client.
Corrected an issue where a player is unable to build any structures that require pylon power when their protoss ally leaves.
Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.
Corrected an issue where the Creep Tumor targeting circle was visible to opponents through Fog of War.
Corrected an issue in which selecting a Starport under construction and a completed Starport would display the select builder command in the Viking slot.
Corrected the Broodling weapon icon.
they do not fixed the problem of not being able to see replays!
Is anyone else having an issue with SC2 freezing when you quit the game? I've yet to have a problem with the program, but now I have to ctrl+alt+delete my way out of it.
For replay-watching: I had the same problem but when I put my replays in the "Recent" folder instead of the replay folder itself, they started working.
On May 07 2010 07:52 cloudJR wrote: Is anyone else having an issue with SC2 freezing when you quit the game? I've yet to have a problem with the program, but now I have to ctrl+alt+delete my way out of it.
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
toss still has dare I say the best and most versatile early/mid aa. especially with the one lacking unit phoenix getting a buff like this. Void rays and stalkers do the job as always and sentries can at least contribute.
Lol, are you kidding? Toss's AA was awful. At least now thye might be able to compete with mass Banshee.
great, now you have to pay 150/150 and 110 seconds to upgrade and wait for 100 energy just to have your infestors out-ranged and 1 shotted by colossus and tanks when it tries to neural parasite something
I've only played about 15 PvTs, and it seems that the majority have gone bio. Every now and then there was a player who transitioned into tanks (or ghosts). However I haven't run into anyone using pure mech (in that sense). But then again, I play P... unless people have been using them in TvZ or TvT? But I do stand corrected on Biomech, mass marines and tanks are pretty deadly.
Corrected an issue that was causing the Polish language client to crash when receiving the "player is no longer being revealed” message.
Corrected incorrect battle.net links on multiple language clients pages.
Corrected an issue where the Zealot was using an US English voice over in the Korean language client.
Corrected an issue where a player is unable to build any structures that require pylon power when their protoss ally leaves.
Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.
Corrected an issue where the Creep Tumor targeting circle was visible to opponents through Fog of War.
Corrected an issue in which selecting a Starport under construction and a completed Starport would display the select builder command in the Viking slot.
Corrected the Broodling weapon icon.
they do not fixed the problem of not being able to see replays!
Seriously, what the fuck? One of their mods even said in their tech support forum quite some time ago that they have this issue resolved in their bug tracker. Unbelievable.
On May 07 2010 05:29 ironchef wrote: interesting, good to see balance changes still coming. Some got scared that it was more or less finalized, bc of the relatively close release date hehe. Some of the hotkey stuff gonna mess me up for a bit, but o well
I'm going to assume that they have already designed their final product with the cd and everything. To get the most recent additions you would have to patch right after you install sc2
On May 07 2010 05:22 kickinhead wrote: only positive thing is fire on the move for Phoenix, but why only for phoenix and not all the other Air-Units and stuff like Hellions? I mean - it's possible as we see now, so why not for every Unit?
btw: Nope - no patch for EU as of yet....
Nony has to make everyone love vikings/mutas first to make 5 million threads on them before blizzard decides to make them good I guess lolollol
YEA !!!! Archon splash!! Pheonix moving SHOT!!! THOR 250mm UPGRADE!! CORRUPTION!! SIEGE TANK BUFF!! ULTRALISK BUFF!!! Wow this is the best patch ever!!
lol how is that any different from before? they still spread out when attack and its not at all effective to go back and forth like that vs turrets like it was in sc1 xd
On May 07 2010 06:08 Zeke50100 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
You guys complained about no moving shot and said the lack of it meant you can never overtake an enemy who pre-emptively took air superiority. Now you do. Simple as that.
Oh, and if you can perfectly measure your movements to not get hit, then you would be able to do SC1-style moving shot anyway. Phoenixes DO move faster than Mutas, you know >.> You actually have to think, unlike some people seem to believe (LOLOL 1 APM = INVINCIBLE PHOENIXES, YOU DON'T NEED TO THINK AT ALL!)
In regards to the point of "looking natural". The reason it looks retarded is it complete throws momentem out the window. thats why it looks retaded. its just spinning and adjusting without slwoing down even 1 bit
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
On May 07 2010 06:21 iamtt1 wrote: WOW what the fuck keep fucking shitting on toss blizz, nerf every unit we have until theres nothing left... might as well switch to fucking zerg this is so ridiculous
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
Umm, stalkers are great vs anything z has, even lings. Have you actually played this game at all?
On May 07 2010 07:37 lololol wrote: Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
A Phoenix doesn't need to fight a Corruptor. A Phoenix can run away and go kill useful Zerg things like Overlords, Queens, Drones, and anything you leave on the ground.
A Corruptor can... slowly chase the Phoenix, or go Corrupt a build-- Oh wait! No, now they can use 100 energy to Corrupt a single... unit..?
A Phoenix doesn't need to fight any Zerg unit. You're not making a point.
I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
On May 07 2010 08:06 wintergt wrote: I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
On May 07 2010 07:37 lololol wrote: Corruptors now own Phoenixes even worse, they got a 2 damage buff, and they were already superior. Even with sentry shield added a Phoenix will lose to a Corruptor.
You just got an actual moving attack and you're still whining. Considering your nick i will just take it you're a Trololololol.
Considering your post i will just take it you're an idiot.
On May 07 2010 07:52 Attica wrote: Tell me how you stop a planetary fortress now without the old corruption?
SQUISHTRALISKS!
Why not? They say exploding AOE centered on them isn't going to hit any other units nearby, so sounds like a good unit to put up front while you batter it down.
At least we know more changes are coming to Ultralisks. I'm hoping for some charge in ability that pushes your units aside and does aoe dmg + goes through forcefields.
On May 07 2010 08:06 wintergt wrote: I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
Crappy Thor ability? You haven't even seen its potential.
On May 07 2010 07:52 Attica wrote: Tell me how you stop a planetary fortress now without the old corruption?
SQUISHTRALISKS!
Why not? They say exploding AOE centered on them isn't going to hit any other units nearby, so sounds like a good unit to put up front while you batter it down.
Except you're going to have to fight the terran army first and then kill it while it gets repaired. Every suggestion so far has been a tier 3 one. Pretty much sounds like if you miss a small timing window to take it out before it's done upgrading you're screwed in destroying that expo.
On May 07 2010 06:08 Zeke50100 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the new Phoenix actually looks natural when it does it? The thing's a paper-thin air-superiority fighter, piloted by a psionic being. I'd like to think the Protoss figured out how to use their rear-view mirror to pilot >.>
You guys complained about no moving shot and said the lack of it meant you can never overtake an enemy who pre-emptively took air superiority. Now you do. Simple as that.
Oh, and if you can perfectly measure your movements to not get hit, then you would be able to do SC1-style moving shot anyway. Phoenixes DO move faster than Mutas, you know >.> You actually have to think, unlike some people seem to believe (LOLOL 1 APM = INVINCIBLE PHOENIXES, YOU DON'T NEED TO THINK AT ALL!)
In regards to the point of "looking natural". The reason it looks retarded is it complete throws momentem out the window. thats why it looks retaded. its just spinning and adjusting without slwoing down even 1 bit
Am I the only one thinking of this scene when seeing the Phoenix flying backwards?
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
What the hell ? Are the phoenixes flying forward while turning/shooting backwards? Maybe they made it a little bit too easy to do the moving shot?
You should be forced to fly TOWARDS the units you want to be able to hit imo
On May 07 2010 07:52 Attica wrote: Tell me how you stop a planetary fortress now without the old corruption?
SQUISHTRALISKS!
Why not? They say exploding AOE centered on them isn't going to hit any other units nearby, so sounds like a good unit to put up front while you batter it down.
Except you're going to have to fight the terran army first and then kill it while it gets repaired. Every suggestion so far has been a tier 3 one. Pretty much sounds like if you miss a small timing window to take it out before it's done upgrading you're screwed in destroying that expo.
Banelings, Baneling Drop, Burrowed Roaches (easier to get optimal amount of Roaches in range), Mutas...
It's not like Toss has it much easier >.> Zealots are slow until Charge, Stalkers are pretty good, Sentries are lol, High Templar suck, Dark Templar tech is too costly, Immortals are great, but expensive, Colossi is lol vs buildings...
Really, the Immortal is the only thing that Toss has above Zerg against PFs, and even then, Banelings are much cheaper and more powerful >.>
On May 07 2010 08:06 wintergt wrote: I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
Hunter seeker missile no longer requires a fusion core to research. That's a huge buff, even with the reduced damage and range.
i feel like the ultralisk buff is huge and omg archons had splash? i did a test and i saw absolutely no splash whatsoever... i'll have to see how powerful archons are now..
On May 07 2010 08:06 wintergt wrote: I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
-I'm not playing beta but thor's ability is really helpfull from what you can see in the VODs. -Not exactly a nerf. They turned it less powerfull but easier to get. -Not sure since the damage wasn't exactly what made ppl prefer broodlords over them.
But blizz intention seems clear with these changes - if the ability is good and ppl is surely gonna use them, make them research them (why is that I can't figure out. I'd like to see roachs naturaly move burrowed). Make terran's t3 more easy to get, like cheaper BCs and ravens skills (not sure if the BC buff is gonna make any difference) and they're trying to bring ultras back. I just hope they don't nerf too much the broodlord in order to make the ultra usefull over it.
On May 07 2010 08:27 Sephy69 wrote: i feel like the ultralisk buff is huge and omg archons had splash? i did a test and i saw absolutely no splash whatsoever... i'll have to see how powerful archons are now..
They don't deal splash damage on units you or your allies own. You probably tried to attack a bunch of your own units.
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
What the hell ? Are the phoenixes flying forward while turning/shooting backwards? Maybe they made it a little bit too easy to do the moving shot?
You should be forced to fly TOWARDS the units you want to be able to hit imo
That's like saying shooting a gun forward while in a car that's in reverse doesn't make sense >.>
On May 07 2010 07:52 Attica wrote: Tell me how you stop a planetary fortress now without the old corruption?
SQUISHTRALISKS!
Why not? They say exploding AOE centered on them isn't going to hit any other units nearby, so sounds like a good unit to put up front while you batter it down.
Except you're going to have to fight the terran army first and then kill it while it gets repaired. Every suggestion so far has been a tier 3 one. Pretty much sounds like if you miss a small timing window to take it out before it's done upgrading you're screwed in destroying that expo.
Banelings, Baneling Drop, Burrowed Roaches (easier to get optimal amount of Roaches in range), Mutas...
It's not like Toss has it much easier >.> Zealots are slow until Charge, Stalkers are pretty good, Sentries are lol, High Templar suck, Dark Templar tech is too costly, Immortals are great, but expensive, Colossi is lol vs buildings...
Really, the Immortal is the only thing that Toss has above Zerg against PFs, and even then, Banelings are much cheaper and more powerful >.>
I dunno...Two commonly used toss units counter it easily. Colossus with range upgrade and voidrays.
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
I think infestor to counter Void Rays (which is why they added NP to air) is a good idea, but im not sure if its viable due to the long research time of NP.
On May 07 2010 08:39 Hamtaro wrote: So what the the spine crawler and spore crawler change mean? roots 6 to 12? Does that mean it has a longer range attack
They used to take 6 seconds to root into the ground before they could attack if you moved them. They take 12 now. It's going to be really annoying as a zerg player for banshee rushes.
On May 07 2010 08:39 Hamtaro wrote: So what the the spine crawler and spore crawler change mean? roots 6 to 12? Does that mean it has a longer range attack
Spine & Spore crawlers take 12 seconds to root in place if you have moved them to a different location, makes the toss timing pushes on backdoor maps vs expo so hard to defend
On May 07 2010 08:39 Disastorm wrote: I think infestor to counter Void Rays (which is why they added NP to air) is a good idea, but im not sure if its viable due to the long research time of NP.
I have practiced that auf Desert Oasis. You can't play infestor vs. Voids.. I don't know what blizzard thinking..
On May 07 2010 08:39 Disastorm wrote: I think infestor to counter Void Rays (which is why they added NP to air) is a good idea, but im not sure if its viable due to the long research time of NP.
I have practiced that auf Desert Oasis. You can't play infestor vs. Voids.. I don't know what blizzard thinking..
u mean u practiced it just now post patch? (since u couldn't do that prepatch)
On May 07 2010 08:06 wintergt wrote: I like a lot of these changes but what? - crappy thor ability noone uses, now has to be researched? - seeker missile who noone was using anymore, big nerf.. why? - ultras gonna be yummy!
-I'm not playing beta but thor's ability is really helpfull from what you can see in the VODs. -Not exactly a nerf. They turned it less powerfull but easier to get. -Not sure since the damage wasn't exactly what made ppl prefer broodlords over them.
But blizz intention seems clear with these changes - if the ability is good and ppl is surely gonna use them, make them research them (why is that I can't figure out. I'd like to see roachs naturaly move burrowed). Make terran's t3 more easy to get, like cheaper BCs and ravens skills (not sure if the BC buff is gonna make any difference) and they're trying to bring ultras back. I just hope they don't nerf too much the broodlord in order to make the ultra usefull over it.
Actually the more I think about it the more having the Thor 250MM cannon as an upgrade makes sense. Pre-patch in TvZ if a Terran went heavy Thors to counter heavy Hydras, the Zerg could NP only half of the Thors and immediately 250 MM cannon down the other Thors, effectively having the bulk of T's army disappear 6 seconds. With this change a T can use Thors to counter Hydras without having to be nearly as worried about getting on NPed and having the NP one 250MM another Thor, tank etc. to oblivion.
With all these splash damage changes, has anyone checked to see if the Plantary Fortress damage has been fixed yet or if it still does 150% damage in splash?
On May 07 2010 07:52 Attica wrote: Tell me how you stop a planetary fortress now without the old corruption?
SQUISHTRALISKS!
Why not? They say exploding AOE centered on them isn't going to hit any other units nearby, so sounds like a good unit to put up front while you batter it down.
Except you're going to have to fight the terran army first and then kill it while it gets repaired. Every suggestion so far has been a tier 3 one. Pretty much sounds like if you miss a small timing window to take it out before it's done upgrading you're screwed in destroying that expo.
Banelings, Baneling Drop, Burrowed Roaches (easier to get optimal amount of Roaches in range), Mutas...
It's not like Toss has it much easier >.> Zealots are slow until Charge, Stalkers are pretty good, Sentries are lol, High Templar suck, Dark Templar tech is too costly, Immortals are great, but expensive, Colossi is lol vs buildings...
Really, the Immortal is the only thing that Toss has above Zerg against PFs, and even then, Banelings are much cheaper and more powerful >.>
I dunno...Two commonly used toss units counter it easily. Colossus with range upgrade and voidrays.
Well, you said the problem was having to beat the Terran's army to have the time to get rid of it. How is that different to Protoss? Its not like sending Void Rays or Collossi out alone isn't suicide if there's Vikings around or anything.
Well I guess it was only time until the protoss designed a full speed hovercraft that is really a spacecraft. It makes as much sense as my sentence above YEAH. FYI viking>phoenix.
On May 07 2010 08:44 Disastorm wrote: With all these splash damage changes, has anyone checked to see if the Plantary Fortress damage has been fixed yet or if it still does 150% damage in splash?
On May 07 2010 08:27 Sephy69 wrote: i feel like the ultralisk buff is huge and omg archons had splash? i did a test and i saw absolutely no splash whatsoever... i'll have to see how powerful archons are now..
They don't deal splash damage on units you or your allies own. You probably tried to attack a bunch of your own units.
yup i did exactly that -.- my bad i should've known it wouldn't splash my own army rofl
EDIT: Ok I watched the video clip of the new phoenix attack...I'm not sure how I feel about the new mechanic having the phoenixs turn around and shoot backwards while still moving forwards. Graphically it looks fine but how it will play out is the real question...
is there any way to change our own hotkeys, I'm prob the only player with this problem, but I always have trouble clicking "Y" lolol, it'd help me to have it on another key, i could use yamato gun without having to check my keyboard lol
On May 07 2010 08:39 Disastorm wrote: I think infestor to counter Void Rays (which is why they added NP to air) is a good idea, but im not sure if its viable due to the long research time of NP.
I have practiced that auf Desert Oasis. You can't play infestor vs. Voids.. I don't know what blizzard thinking..
u mean u practiced it just now post patch? (since u couldn't do that prepatch)
Yes i practiced that with Patch 11 but Z can't win.. The Upgrade for the Infestors need so much time that you can't counter the void rays with infestors..
Funny how most people hardly manage the sentry nerf. That by far the biggest nerf this entire patch. Damage from 8 to 6 is a huge nerf and immediately stops 4 warpgate pushes etc. Especially against armored units like roaches it's just huge. Strange how they keep throwing HUGE changes at the infestor patch after patch, just seems silly.
Alot of the changes make sense though, slight phoenix buff, huge sentry nerf, slight mech buff, ultralisk buff etc were things you could see coming. It's probably back to robotics play for toss instead of 4 gating...
Not sure when that corruter ability is useful but I guess we'll see. Only purpose I can think of is stopping an attack right before greater spire pops but that's the only situation I've thought of. Don't get them because of high spire cost. O wait doesn't this encourage the Korean style zvt (muta bane zergling) that has them dominating Asia server terrans. The us/eu response to spire was Thor but now it does less damage and can be weakened with corrupt. Definitely going to give that strategy a go now.
Edit: oh no damage change still the corrupt makes the strategy sound fun.
On May 07 2010 07:45 Pika Chu wrote: I think the nerf of sentry's damage just made zvp a bit more imba. It's almost impossible now to counter a muta rush without going air or mass stalkers.
Wtf?
You're complaining that you need to actually counter units?
News flash: If your opponent goes for a particular strategy, that means you need to counter it. So if that means going air or mass stalkers, then do it.
He's complaining that there is now only 1 ground unit that can fight mutas, and that ground unit is pretty mediocre or terrible vs anything the zerg has. with sentries pre-patch at they were useful in the army so you weren't too screwed over.
although from what i see from the phoenix change its now possible to survive with smaller numbers, ala corsair in BW.
What the hell ? Are the phoenixes flying forward while turning/shooting backwards? Maybe they made it a little bit too easy to do the moving shot?
You should be forced to fly TOWARDS the units you want to be able to hit imo
That's like saying shooting a gun forward while in a car that's in reverse doesn't make sense >.>
I dont give a shit about what makes sense in reality, this is a videogame - its supposed to make sense there and be skillbased .. this doesn't feel like either one.
@SuperXlax: Vikings and Corruptors wouldn't be able to make as much use out of it, as they are much slower.
@Markwerf: The Phoenix change was actually a giant buff against Mutas. Against anything else, it just looks cool :D
Although, to be honest, the Sentry nerf isn't that huge. The biggest imbalances with the Sentry were with FF, and this nerf makes the Sentry just bad enough so that it can't make up 90% of your army with you still expecting to deal excellent damage :D
@Senx: So you'd rather have Phoenixes that can't fight Mutas at all until you grab a critical amount of them?
But why just the phoenix? Come on blizz we want more units that can move and attack.
Srsly, just give it to viking/corruptor too. :[ Good patch though.
Blizz is problably just testing this move and attack thing to see the feedback. Since ppl seems to be really liking it they'll put it in more units later on. Started with toss because they were really screwed air to air wise (I guess, I'm not playing beta so I may be totally wrong here).
It's really a good thing, I mean, c'mon, were improving, getting somewhere. If every air unit moved like the valkyries in BW it would just be no fun at all.
I'm just worried that they aren't concerned with improving it. I mean, my brother liked the thing because it's easy for a casual player to use, it's fun, but ppl over here are worried with micro options. Guess who's blizz gonna hear. But since SCII is supposed to be an Esport it wouldn't hurt to put a little more efford in making the air move attack more micro-intensive. C'mon it isn't that hard, and it's fun too. Hope they hear our calls.
Archon splash: 100% damage - 50% damage - 25% damage Old radius - 0.093 - 0.4 - 0.8 New radius - 0.250 - 0.5 - 1.0 Quite a buff to the 100% splash area, 270% of the old radius(722% of the old area). Coupled with hitting the middle of units, instead of the forwardmost point, they will deal a lot more splash damage in general.
But why just the phoenix? Come on blizz we want more units that can move and attack.
Srsly, just give it to viking/corruptor too. :[ Good patch though.
Blizz is problably just testing this move and attack thing to see the feedback. Since ppl seems to be really liking it they'll put it in more units later on. Started with toss because they were really screwed air to air wise (I guess, I'm not playing beta so I may be totally wrong here).
It's really a good thing, I mean, c'mon, were improving, getting somewhere. If every air unit moved like the valkyries in BW it would just be no fun at all.
I'm just worried that they aren't concerned with improving it. I mean, my brother liked the thing because it's easy for a casual player to use, it's fun, but ppl over here are worried with micro options. Guess who's blizz gonna hear. But since SCII is supposed to be an Esport it wouldn't hurt to put a little more efford in making the air move attack more micro-intensive. C'mon it isn't that hard, and it's fun too. Hope they hear our calls.
the reason why valkyries were like that was because once they started to attack, their attack acted as a channeled ability, therefore their mobility was screwed. sigh, to be honest that "attack move" blizzard implemented is just ridiculous, you just get close to enemy units and right click spam? LOL fuck sake SC2 is just getting dumbed down more and more
Now that we can parasite air what happens if u get dropships? I never tried it back when it was possible, do you get all the units inside ? Also it would be pretty epic to have a zerg army healed by medivacs.
Did they really need to give phoenix shoot on move? Now even less incentive to go muta vs protoss.
Seems like they are really putting the hurting on zerg. Crawlers take twice as long to burrow now? Geeze. I already almost couldn't get them down in time against a big marauder push or void rays, gl doing anything with them in battle that's for sure.
Not a big fan of the infestor nerf either. My guess is because people never bothered to get the starting energy upgrade for them. Looks like hydras over mutalisk build instead.
This is ridiculous. Why does Zerg get smashed so frikin hard. Corrupter? More useless. Infestor? Nerf'd our last hope. Broodlord? Wth was wrong with that 50 extra hp?
On May 07 2010 09:19 lololol wrote: Archon splash: 100% damage - 50% damage - 25% damage Old radius - 0.093 - 0.4 - 0.8 New radius - 0.250 - 0.5 - 1.0 Quite a buff to the 100% splash area, 270% of the old radius(722% of the old area). Coupled with hitting the middle of units, instead of the forwardmost point, they will deal a lot more splash damage in general.
But with gas the way it is and the newer regen speeds are you going to trade 2 hts for an archon unlikly unless you're going for a finishing push or scaping back to defend your base.
Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have broad stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
The thing is paper thin. Pretty easy to be aerodynamic both ways >.> Also, the engines are nothing like ours on real life. We have no idea how it works XD
PvZ will probably change most. I see pheonix being more applicable using micro, but Mutas (which were nearly impossible to defend against without early scout) are going to be even harder to stop. Sentry/Stalker now even weaker against mutas, will be forced to tech pheonix PvZ vs mutas. Really limits options in many cases imo.
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
The thing is paper thin. Pretty easy to be aerodynamic both ways >.> Also, the engines are nothing like ours on real life. We have no idea how it works XD
Maybe the pilots are just better.
He actually said it's a coincidence (OR IS IT?) that the unit looks designed to be aerodynamically possible to fly backwards.
In case no-one realised what they did for collossus...
What they actually did was make armor more-important/more-effective against it. Same raw damage over same amount of time using more shots. This translates into armor preventing more of the damage because armor affects per-shot.
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
I always thought they would look much better if they moved in reverse, it would fit the space fighter look a lot more. I don't really like the wide front.
On May 07 2010 09:32 oneThing wrote: PvZ will probably change most. I see pheonix being more applicable using micro, but Mutas (which were nearly impossible to defend against without early scout) are going to be even harder to stop. Sentry/Stalker now even weaker against mutas, will be forced to tech pheonix PvZ vs mutas. Really limits options in many cases imo.
But... but mutas are incredibly easy to defend against only with stalkers. And sentries still do GOOD damage and have guardian shield. Only when there are like 16-20 mutas they begin to challenge stalkers/sentries. And by then you could easily have two phoenixes that take them all out...
Why did they have to nerf the infester?? That was really all I had against terran, especially when terran does a hellion rush into thors sometimes with a dropship. I have seen one game where the entire thor was surrounded by SCV's repairing it and my zerglings couldn't even do anything because A-move targets the thor over the SCV's. Trying to individually kill off the SCV's took too much time and my zerglings died. Who cares about the 250mm cannon nerf. Thors were hardly nerfed at all and now infesters take too much time and energy for NP to be effective.
I already had a hard enough time dealing with the 4 gate early push from protoss. Now I don't know what to do against an early thor push.
Did anyone notice the stealth change to the Tel'Darim Standard (50 Protoss 2v2 wins decal)? The "swastika" now has 3 prongs instead of 4. Any other UI changes that weren't mentioned in the patch notes?
On May 07 2010 09:02 Fayth wrote: is there any way to change our own hotkeys, I'm prob the only player with this problem, but I always have trouble clicking "Y" lolol, it'd help me to have it on another key, i could use yamato gun without having to check my keyboard lol
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
The thing is paper thin. Pretty easy to be aerodynamic both ways >.> Also, the engines are nothing like ours on real life. We have no idea how it works XD
Maybe the pilots are just better.
He actually said it's a coincidence (OR IS IT?) that the unit looks designed to be aerodynamically possible to fly backwards.
Ah, I took it as a sarcastic way to point out how this wouldn't have made sense lore-wise at all o.0
Phoenix was, after all, designed to be a mobile air fighter. Why shouldn't it have a reverse mode? XD
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
The thing is paper thin. Pretty easy to be aerodynamic both ways >.> Also, the engines are nothing like ours on real life. We have no idea how it works XD
Maybe the pilots are just better.
He actually said it's a coincidence (OR IS IT?) that the unit looks designed to be aerodynamically possible to fly backwards.
Ah, I took it as a sarcastic way to point out how this wouldn't have made sense lore-wise at all o.0
Phoenix was, after all, designed to be a mobile air fighter. Why shouldn't it have a reverse mode? XD
Zeke wanted to pick a fight without actually contradicting anything i said. He probably had a bad day.
So ultras are actually useful against splash heavy armies now and a terran can't panick and pump out a thor to stop one if he didn't think ahead and research 250mm cannons. The path finding is still the main issue and depending on the map broodlords are still the blatantly obvious choice. I am glad to see blizzard is trying to address this issue and I hope to see more about it.
Pheonix is just stupid, they gave one of the coolest and most difficult skills in sc1 to noobs with this patch. This doesn't increase skill in anyway it just gives awesome mobile death to a-movers. Im not even slightly happy about this.
It's cool to see the BC's being brought into it but it remains to see if their faster build + ravens will mix into the current game without tipping the balance too hard.
I like the changes to thor and colossus, they are still wicked powerful but they aren't this 1-shotting army of death if critical mass is reached. Ive played some but its still way to early to figure out how this effects balance.
Corrupters are just...wat? The unit has always been a "wat" unit and now its just more "wat" They can keep up with my mutas better? Umm ok, is this supposed to make me feel better when the pheonixes rape both the mutas and corruptors because they can hang out and be pals now? Should I be busting out the uber-micro and splitting them using my mutas to harass while my corruptors run flank on the pheonix with the skills of a korean pro gamer and my opponent just...a-clicks to deal with it?
So ups and downs this patch for me. Mostly though Im glad to see blizzard mixing it up and I think as long as they keep at it balance and skilled play shall be found. July 27th makes me nervous though.
On May 07 2010 09:27 Archerofaiur wrote: Interesting note. If you look closely the phoenix's engine "horns" give off flames even in reverse
Its kind of funny that the unit designed years ago just happens to be aerodynamic backwards and have stabilizing wings and backward facing engine. Crazy!
The thing is paper thin. Pretty easy to be aerodynamic both ways >.> Also, the engines are nothing like ours on real life. We have no idea how it works XD
Maybe the pilots are just better.
He actually said it's a coincidence (OR IS IT?) that the unit looks designed to be aerodynamically possible to fly backwards.
Ah, I took it as a sarcastic way to point out how this wouldn't have made sense lore-wise at all o.0
Phoenix was, after all, designed to be a mobile air fighter. Why shouldn't it have a reverse mode? XD
Zeke wanted to pick a fight without actually contradicting anything i said. He probably had a bad day.
I'm actually being serious; I thought you were making a "How will Blizzard explain this with Lore this time" statement, which is why I talked about how the Protoss could have better technology (well, they for sure do), and also how maybe the pilots suddenly gained the ability to maneuver the current way when they couldn't a day ago.
For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
phoenix&archon - good change sentry - why??? (but maybe it won't be too bad)
BL - I am toss, I like that nerf, but maybe it is too much corruptor - fine, but corruption used to be the only effective thing against planetary fortress in the whole game infestor - too much of a nerf
does the tank splash explanation mean that tanks don't miss moving targets like they did in bw?
Well, the whole patch promises that the gameplay will change => very excited
why did they have to move assimilator/pylon and supply/rafinery -.-
On May 07 2010 09:49 Innovation wrote: For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
On May 07 2010 09:49 ggrrg wrote: phoenix&archon - good change sentry - why??? (but maybe it won't be too bad)
BL - I am toss, I like that nerf, but maybe it is too much corruptor - fine, but corruption used to be the only effective thing against planetary fortress in the whole game infestor - too much of a nerf
does the tank splash explanation mean that tanks don't miss moving targets like they did in bw?
Well, the whole patch promises that the gameplay will change => very excited
why did they have to move assimilator/pylon and supply/rafinery -.-
Sentry change is an indirect nerf to forcefield. Tanks don't miss moving targets in both BW and SC2 and they never did.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks. " - http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24702391969&sid=5000
Well, if that's what they want then making the mutas move around better too surely isn't gonna ruin their day. Range is what matters, and if other air units had more mobility the game surely would be more sexy. Or am I missing a point?
On May 07 2010 09:49 Innovation wrote: For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
The devourer!
Well, it was splash, increased damage dealt by mutalisks a 20%, and was stackable, and autocast...
But THAT's why the devourer was so used an OP. This 'slightly' worse ability will be abused for sure.
On May 07 2010 09:49 ggrrg wrote: phoenix&archon - good change sentry - why??? (but maybe it won't be too bad)
BL - I am toss, I like that nerf, but maybe it is too much corruptor - fine, but corruption used to be the only effective thing against planetary fortress in the whole game infestor - too much of a nerf
does the tank splash explanation mean that tanks don't miss moving targets like they did in bw?
Well, the whole patch promises that the gameplay will change => very excited
why did they have to move assimilator/pylon and supply/rafinery -.-
Sentry change is an indirect nerf to forcefield. Tanks don't miss moving targets in both BW and SC2 and they never did.
Yes now we haven't 500 Forcefields, but i think the Forcefield takes still to much time. But i think they solved the "4 Gate Problem" with mass Zealots and Sentrys.
On May 07 2010 10:07 wishbones wrote: Well this sucks, F10+S does not work, and everytime I quit SC2 now, it freezes and I have to use the task manager. Ima send this to Blizzard for sure.
Gah I still can't play beta, the stupid system hasn't been letting me login in days, ever since I tryed installing both gateways, even deletion of every sc2 file on my computer and reinstalling only the EU servers didn't help...whenever I try to login my sc2 freezes completely, which is weird, since I can still login to my battle.net account online.
They really cut the balls off the thor. All it's good for is scaring away mutas now. What's the point of reducing the initial damage but keeping dps the same? Blizzard wants it to be an attack-move unit you throw in with your marine control group instead of microing it to kill full hp hydralisks? The only people that benefit from this change are people that blindly attack-move.
"Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch. "
Haha, i like the fact, that they KNOW that this change was totaly stupid.
But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
The key here is that you are comparing it to a unit in Broodwar. When you actually look at the ability in context of the other races and abilities in SC2 it is a very powerfull ability.
Remember: This is not BW, and Corrupters are not Devourer's.
On May 07 2010 10:20 Kafkaesk wrote: "Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch. "
Haha, i like the fact, that they KNOW that this change was totaly stupid.
But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
It's not a stupid change, do you know how patches work? They playtest on different builds then we do. In their office they are ahead of what the current live beta version is.
On May 07 2010 10:20 Kafkaesk wrote: But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
Well, if that's the case they should make sumthing that leads to sick micro and is intended to be used with the "awesome can make anything perfected over 9000 engine". These mechanic abuses made the game fun because it made the game work in ways it wasn't intended to. Back then it was necessary, but today we know how we want this game to work, shouldn't the engine suport that, instead of being perfectly awesome in deniying ppl to play the way it's FUN to play? in the game we learned to love, the flying units had enormous mobility, stack, shoot one way run another, many things that added, and this fast paced and intuitive battle was a good thing. Ppl abused mechanics to get what their wanted. Shouldn't this be a lesson to learn from?
Since it's another game it may be fair to just give it a try to this new way of attack and move. I think it's a good change what they made to the phoenix and more should be on our way. Sure, we can't abuse, but if we don't HAVE TO and nevertheless we get to do what we want with our units then its a good deal. The fun isn't about abusing the engine after all, the fun is in flying with those mutas freely, to feel the freedon and the cold air around while we blazed through mineral lines and mains alike, with those crazy marines trying to catch, and failing miserably. The fun is the crazy micro, as mentioned, the fun is the show, the skillz, the control. That's what air superiority is about anyway.
I don't mind most of these changes after reading blizzards response and acknowledgement that they are still going to change ultras.
I do however wish to see a new corrupter change, I feel this didn't really do anything, and I think the cast spell isn't that great, but will have to play test.
also I feel infestor nerf a little hard, I like the upgrade but maybe upgrade time a little less?
First- splash increase on the Archon! It definitely needed more love, I was afraid they were going to leave it as a 'scout' unit.
As for the moving and shoot Phoenix.
I see two complaints- 1) it's not been implemented properly 2) It has been introduced in enough units
But I wonder if those two complaints are related. This a rather significant gameplay change and I strongly suspect they'll have to tweak how it works. (After all, this is not the final patch. It's just the first patch to have implemented the moving shot. I highly doubt that they'll just sit back and say- that'll shut up all the micro junkies.) It'd probably be easier to balance out how moving shot works on one unit (and one that only goes vs air) then to implement that change on a whole bunch of units and completely break the game if they screw it up.
In the end, I don't think the initial freak out is ever worth it. After eleven patches we should figure out that this probably won't be the final patch. And yes we should complain if there are big issues, but theorizing based on numbers vs actual game testing? I dunno.
On May 07 2010 10:07 wishbones wrote: Well this sucks, F10+S does not work, and everytime I quit SC2 now, it freezes and I have to use the task manager. Ima send this to Blizzard for sure.
I think you can turn this off, I was told it's a setting. Think they just changed the default setting for patch 11.
On May 07 2010 10:20 Kafkaesk wrote: "Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch. "
Haha, i like the fact, that they KNOW that this change was totaly stupid.
But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
If you look at some FPS games I'm pretty sure that you can see un-intended abuses coming back as features in sequels.
On May 07 2010 10:20 Kafkaesk wrote: "Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch. "
Haha, i like the fact, that they KNOW that this change was totaly stupid.
But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
It's not a stupid change, do you know how patches work? They playtest on different builds then we do. In their office they are ahead of what the current live beta version is.
Damage was never the problem of Ultralisks. That's why it is a stupid change.
On May 07 2010 10:07 wishbones wrote: Well this sucks, F10+S does not work, and everytime I quit SC2 now, it freezes and I have to use the task manager. Ima send this to Blizzard for sure.
I think you can turn this off, I was told it's a setting. Think they just changed the default setting for patch 11.
On May 07 2010 10:20 Kafkaesk wrote: "Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch. "
Haha, i like the fact, that they KNOW that this change was totaly stupid.
But for the ones who are crying for an cancel animation shot. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to put it in the game. Of course, it leads to some sick micro, but still it is an ABUSE of the engine. It was never intended to use.
If you look at some FPS games I'm pretty sure that you can see un-intended abuses coming back as features in sequels.
On May 07 2010 09:49 Innovation wrote: For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
I'm extremely glad you arn't a balancer. the main reason devourers werent used in BW was cause scourge=10x better AA. since those are gone and the devourer equivalent is now lair tech instead of hive and costs significantly less corrupters are seeing decent use as anti-colossus. corrupters are still going to be used vs colossi/heavy air, and now your army gets +20% damage buff to them as well.
+100% would be beyond OP, no air unit could come close to standing up to them.
I like that the Phoenix can now attack while moving, and that it doesn't require me to abuse stupid exploits like the SC1 Patrol micro that the rabid, QQing StarCraft fanboys are demanding, but I think that it needs a tweak. Auto-acquring new targets on move commands is going a step too far, and I think that air units should, the Carrier excluded, need to be moving towards their targets to attack. The Void Rays did this nicely, and I think it could easily be carried over to the Phoenix. In its current form, the Phoenix requires no real micro. Also, I'm not an especial fan of hard counters, and the Phoenix vs Muta is a bit too hard.
On May 07 2010 09:49 Innovation wrote: For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
I'm extremely glad you arn't a balancer. the main reason devourers werent used in BW was cause scourge=10x better AA. since those are gone and the devourer equivalent is now lair tech instead of hive and costs significantly less corrupters are seeing decent use as anti-colossus. corrupters are still going to be used vs colossi/heavy air, and now your army gets +20% damage buff to them as well.
+100% would be beyond OP, no air unit could come close to standing up to them.
Scourge wasn't hive tech and they were a lot better than devourers you say. But apparentely something the strength of devourers would be ridiculously OP in this game?
The ability is useless and will never, ever, in the history of Starcraft 2 be used AT ALL. Feel free to quote me on this in the future.
P fort = planetary fortress, before you could use a corruptor to shut it down which was useful because aside from broodlords zerg have to spend silly amounts of unit count to kill one.
On May 07 2010 09:49 Innovation wrote: For those of you complaining about corrupter spell change I think you're crazy. At high levels of play you will see this ability used to devastating effect and could even be a little OP in the right hands. While the ability to stop buildings from working for 30 seconds was cool, it's use in battle dramatically changes late game for zerg.
I have two strats I want to try now....mass queen to ultra/bling rush, and corrupter/infestor/roach.
No. Way. If it did a 100% increase, then MAYBE someone at some time, if only for laughs, would use the ability. I can't think of a worse ability, going through all the abilities I've seen in any RTS game. Can you?
edit: I mean, think of this way. In bw there existed a unit that did this, plus slowed the attack of the enemy, and revealed it, AND it stacked, and it did this EVERY attack with no energy cost whatsoever. Did anyone use this unit ever? Nope.
I'm extremely glad you arn't a balancer. the main reason devourers werent used in BW was cause scourge=10x better AA. since those are gone and the devourer equivalent is now lair tech instead of hive and costs significantly less corrupters are seeing decent use as anti-colossus. corrupters are still going to be used vs colossi/heavy air, and now your army gets +20% damage buff to them as well.
+100% would be beyond OP, no air unit could come close to standing up to them.
Scourge wasn't hive tech and they were a lot better than devourers you say. But apparentely something the strength of devourers would be ridiculously OP in this game?
The ability is useless and will never, ever, in the history of Starcraft 2 be used AT ALL. Feel free to quote me on this in the future.
roflmao? thats the most retarded statement ever lol. every single fucking time a decent player uses corrupters to counter colossi or anti-air they will use the corruption just because its a free +20% damage. Is it a creative or interesting ability? definitely not, but it WILL be used just cause theres no reason no to when you are already getting the units.
also, the reason the devourer mechanic would be broken is that corrupters attack ~3-4 times as fast as devourers and do similar damage. even YOU should be able to comprehend that giving a unit 3-4x the DPS without any other type of nerf would be kinda op.
Also, learn to read. i said the devourer was hive tech, not scourge >.>
This is a simplified example - I understand that a lot of this is game-situational. I'll look into the build time to get Air technology, along with how the units stack up themselves, and the cost and time effectiveness of the Mutalisk vs Phoenix.
Mutalisk Cost: 100/100 Supply: 2 Build Time for unit: 33s Path for Technology*: Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire Cost for Technology: 200/0, 150/100, 200/200 = 550/300 Time for Technology: 65s, 80s, 100s = 245s = 4min 5sec
Phoenix Cost: 150/100 Supply: 2 Build time for unit: 45s Path for Technology: Pylon, Gateway, Cybernetics core, Stargate Cost for Technology: 0/0* 150/0, 150/0, 150/150 = 450/150 Time for Technology: 25s 65s, 50s, 60s = 200s = 3min 20sec
*Pylon cost is 0/0 because both Overlords and Pylons provide supply, and is the same cost for both races. With the Larva mechanic, producing overlords does not add linear/technology build time to Zergs technology tree, hence why its not added into the build time. The pylon IS added to the Protoss' build time, because you can't actually build buildings without the Pylon, whereas you can build buildings without Overlords.
If both players rush/bee-line for Air units with discounting times to actually place buildings Protoss can get a Stargate at about 200sec into the game, and start producing units, which take 45s each. Protoss can get a Phoenix out within 245 seconds, which is about 4min 5 sec.
Zerg can finish a Spire at about 245 seconds, and finish (X-number of) Mutalisks within 4min 38 sec.
Clearly Zerg has it more resource and time expensive to tech to Air technology, however the strength of Zerg is the build multiple Mutalisks at once. More on this later.
Protoss have a window of TOTAL air superiority for about the build time of the Mutalisks, which is 35s. Considering how fast Phoenix's are, this is significant Overlord hunting time, especially on the smaller maps. There is absolutely nothing that Zerg can do against this - Zerg is unable to build the technology quick enough. Keep in mind that this is a single Stargate build, you can add on another Stargate at 150/150 cost, which will bring the total technology costs in line with Zerg, with (in this example) no time increase to the build. This time-advantage is extended when Protoss use the Chronoboost ability to produce Phoenix's quicker!
One for One, the Phoenix is more expensive than the Mutalisk to produce - coming at an extra 50 minerals.
Now onto the situational stuff: Obviously this patch has made the Phoenix is more micro-intensive than before. From the youtube video, its easy to see that Phoenix is a fantastic unit against Mutalisks with proper micro. There would be a critical number of Phoenix's that can snipe Mutalisks with nothing the Zerg player can do apart from "Not go mutalisk".
Conclusion Obviously this is a huge buff to the Phoenix. The Protoss player is able to tech quicker, produce quicker and have air superiority before Zerg. Even if Zerg were able mass Mutalisk, the Phoenix has one production cycle advantage, which with 2 Stargate play, would mean that 4 Phoenix are out in the same time as Zerg's Mutalisk group, typically between 6 - 8 Mutalisks. Zerg not only lose in the air tech, but with the latest change, Zerg lose with unit control and if Zerg wants to pursue the Mutalisk tech tree against Protoss, Zerg must put early pressure to delay the Phoenix.
All in all, I think this change limits Zergs scope and versatility against Protoss, especially if Phoenix's are used in skilled hands.
Not gonna read all 36 pages, but up till page 6 people are wondering why about the hellion buff.
It isnt really a buff perse. They already did damage out to range 6 (that was the "splash"). However previously hellions only acquired targets within range of 5.
SO, that means hellion AI is smarter and better when attack moved, but not as good when microed. Well, that isnt necessarily true either. It just means micro will be a little bit trickier with them.
On May 07 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Wow... Z got raped HARD.
Only real means to fend off early all-ins was Crawler placement and re-placement. Gone.
Broodlords, nerf.
Ultra, buffed but still shit. Ignored the real problem, impractical.
Corrupters, buffed but still shit. Ignored the real problem, not that effective in air battles versus their cost.
Infestors, raped. Completely raped.
Spore Crawlers, ignored the real problem... range.
I guess it is time to T up...
overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
Corrupters are counters to massive air units, they are NOT supposed to be able to beat vikings and phoenix in a straight up even-cost fight.
broodlords needed a small nerf, they are still very strong
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
The Sentry nerf is perfectly placed, P has do decide to give up ~25% dmg or some forcefields. I like it. I don't like the phoenix change, since zerg should have at least one air unit which is able to counter phoenix. May give corrupters same range as phoenix would resolve the thingy.
People complaining about spores movement make no sense....
Last I checked Turrents and Cannons didn't move around everywhere lol and are more expensive. If terran and toss have to learn where to put ATA defense, so should zerg. Besides, queens are surprisingly really good ATA dense for rushes if used properly.
Well, I don't have definitive numbers, obviously, but it feels like PvZ is pretty one-dimensional for the Zerg. Any attempt at going Mutas get soundly crushed by a reactive Stargate and Phoenix pumping. Before you had to sit around, getting your Probes gibbed and running Stalkers/Sentries around like headless chickens while you slowly build up Phoenixes to reach that magic 3:5 ratio. Now you can just run in with Phoenixes as they spawn and kick some serious ass. Pretty sure the Muta openers are going to phase out entirely before long.
Now you know its either going to be Hydras with possibly some Infestors...and High Templar and an assload of Speedlots and Sentries can handle both, so...yeah. PvZ is pretty much gonna suck for Zerg for a while.
Unless, of course, Zerg start getting smart and use Corruptors to handle the Phoenixes (trying not to get them killed by Stalkers). That'll switch things up a bit.
On May 07 2010 13:58 Chen wrote: overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
This is not that fix however... this just makes it happen later, costing more. It doesn't address a balance issue, it just makes it less likely to occur. Lazy balance.
Also, Fungal Growth is trash. Give me PULAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUU.
Corrupters are counters to massive air units, they are NOT supposed to be able to beat vikings and phoenix in a straight up even-cost fight.
Know that much... so what does counter? Oh, nothing.
broodlords needed a small nerf, they are still very strong
If you let Z get enough gas to get them you deserve it.
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
K... see, the reason Z was gifted Spines was because unlike other races we don't get shit at T1 or T1.5. Lings or Roaches that both lost badly to all good early all-ins. Stopping this so we could actually access our units was thanks to the Crawlers and being able to move them as the need arised. Now... ? Great, if your base has a back door you're fucked.
Interesting patch, but reading the explanations makes me lose confidence in them "the changes to NP are to help protect the ultralisk from being mind-controlled too easily" ?????
Kind of sad to see the corrupter ability go. I know nobody liked it, but against PF'ed and turrent infested terrans, I liked it. Any chance this new ability will be patched in the future to be able to target buildings, or would that make it OP? I can see this being used against Thor and collosus...
Infestor: It was probably needed, but man I loved me some neural parasite. I have a friend who is a bit Thor-crazy. I'll have to fast tech now.
Siege Tank Life increased from 150 to 160. Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
no cost change wtf is this !@!#@!#!@
well in my experience, in sc2 there is no such thing as a mech terran, I saw it tried but failed, it worked really well when integrated with a decent number of mmm, but pure mech wasn't really viable, now with helion range increased, and slightly stronger seige tanks blizzard is trying to make it more viable.
besides thor took a massive beating in that patch.
Regarding all the balance changes I'm quite content with them, I like how they reduce burst dmg across the board (almost), and the general tweaks. I'm missing a tinkering with Force Field though, I just think it lasts too long and is abit too cheap to cast.
But this patch is all about the phoenix.. W _ T _ F ?!
I can't belive this is what we're seeing, and I hope they come up with something fast to replace this with some sort of real animation canceling. =´(
On May 07 2010 13:58 Chen wrote: overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
This is not that fix however... this just makes it happen later, costing more. It doesn't address a balance issue, it just makes it less likely to occur. Lazy balance.
Also, Fungal Growth is trash. Give me PULAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUU.
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
K... see, the reason Z was gifted Spines was because unlike other races we don't get shit at T1 or T1.5. Lings or Roaches that both lost badly to all good early all-ins. Stopping this so we could actually access our units was thanks to the Crawlers and being able to move them as the need arised. Now... ? Great, if your base has a back door you're fucked.
LOL. fungal growth is trash? ok just cause it doesnt do 300 automatic damage doesnt make it suck lol. its one of the strongest spells in the game considering it immobilizes units for 8 seconds and does 36 damage, ie 80% of marine HP after a stim.
oh yeah, lets completely forget the fact that corrupters are extremely good vs colossi, a rather important unit in the PvZ matchup.
on broodlords, so if the game goes late and both players are on 4-5 bases, the toss/terran should automatically get punished for being unable to prevent the zerg from staying on equal/+1 bases? right.
and you still havent made any argument on crawlers lol. all your problems can be solved with scouting (woot 25 mineral lings and overlords flying everywhere) and good foresight. you seem to think that blizzard wants and made it so the only way that zerg can survive to lair is by massing crawlers. you should watch some replays of great zergs like maybe idra and see how many times over the course of 10 games he masses spine crawlers and is forced to shuffle them from main to natural in order to defend his bases.
I'm almost double posting here, but the bloody phoenix is.. I'm stunned.
You dont even have to attackmove, you just have to move it across or close to something in range and it WILL shot at it. There is absolutly no micro involved in this. I'm terrified =(
On May 07 2010 15:56 Kyuki wrote:I'm missing a tinkering with Force Field though, I just think it lasts too long and is abit too cheap to cast.
I see what you're saying, but I was playing as Toss earlier, and really had to think twice about the number of Sentries I warped in due to the damage reduction. Less Sentries=Less FF.
Phoenix and ultra buffs go in the right direction. I don't really understand the broodlord nerf, nobody used them anyway. As a Terran I've never seen one BL in approx 15/20 games vs zerg. I do not feel strike cannons were overpowered at all, I wonder why there's such a huge nerf.
when i click starcraft 2 beta, the patch download screen appears and quickly goes away again.. and nothing happens... someone the same problem or heard of it?
On May 07 2010 15:56 Kyuki wrote:I'm missing a tinkering with Force Field though, I just think it lasts too long and is abit too cheap to cast.
I see what you're saying, but I was playing as Toss earlier, and really had to think twice about the number of Sentries I warped in due to the damage reduction. Less Sentries=Less FF.
I dig that, but I really think 4 warpgate pushes will still dump alot of gas into sentries since having the choice to just cut the opponents army in half is way more valuable than getting abit more DPS out on the field.
Regardless it'll be interesting to follow the development from here.
The only change I really question is the neural parasite change...not because I don't necessarily agree with it, but because the 9 range NP has only be around a very short time.
Its getting some solid use right now, but players are only beginning to utilize it fully/counter it. I don't think its been enough time to say it needs a amount of nerfing (and yes while being able to get air units is nice....a big cost and build time and energy cost is overall a nerf to me).
I don't get why people are so outraged by the pheonix change, sure it doesnt take a lot of apm to counter mutas, but they're _supposed_ to counter mutas. Personally I don't think it should require an apm high enough to properly do the "move shot" in order for the unit to perform it's role properly. If both players autoattack mutas still have the advantage. SC2 is not SC1, if people want to use their crazy high apm to it's fullest they'll still find a way to do it, but the average joe still needs their units to perform their roles properly without delving into the more advanced unit control.
And no, it does not mean that mutas are useless now vs phoenix, one infestor with fungal growth and all that "insane kiting" goes out the window. Corruptor range is also 2 greater than that of the phoenix and counts as armoured, but god forbid zerg players would have to use their dedicated air-air unit to gain air superiority against another dedicated air-air unit. All this does is force players to get a more diverse army, rather than mass muta and own the skies vs protoss.
As for the corruption ability, I think it's a great change. The unit gets bonus damage vs massive units and their ability makes them perform their role that much better, instead of a gimmicky ability of dubious usefulness. It'll also make dealing with thors, ultras and colossus that much easier, who cares if it does nothing vs something like mass roach/hydra, if you counter that with corruptors you're doing it wrong anyway.
anyone tested the new ravens yet? how do they fare now, without a mana reduction those mines are still pretty expensive, when does one decide to use them?
pheonix became ridiculously strong, you can't chase it with mutas? That's a bit too much lol.
I think they are nerfing zerg too early, no one even learned how to properly play tvz/pvz yet. Wait until you see some decent terran mech vs z (it's coming)
On May 07 2010 18:17 condoriano wrote: pheonix became ridiculously strong, you can't chase it with mutas? That's a bit too much lol.
I think they are nerfing zerg too early, no one even learned how to properly play tvz/pvz yet. Wait until you see some decent terran mech vs z (it's coming)
you are wrong, mech just doesnt work vs zerg... all they have to do is mass roaches
After patch I can't exit beta normally, it freezes and i have to restart, quite annoying.... Anyone having this problem...? About patch... I as protoss can't do anything vs terran, 4 marauders 2 marines (with stim) and 2 medivacs kill 10 stalkers and colossus... ridiculous... colossus nerf wasn't necessary all I can do vs M&M now is void ray yeeey
Phoenixes were always able to take on mutas unless they were terribly outnumbered. In fact they demolished mutas cost for cost. But now you don't have to worry about losing your few phoenixes if you just started building a few as a reaction to a sudden mass of mutas.
On May 07 2010 16:41 QueueQueue wrote: I'm curious. Does anyone know what happens if your neural parasite a medivac with units in it?
During the previous patch were it was possible to NP flying units, the units in the medivac are killed when you parasite the unit.
So NP could (theorycraft) be a useful drop-protection.
well if the units inside die if you simply NP the medivac, that has to be a bug... but its would still be drop protection in the sense that a NP'ed medivac can be moved say right under a small bucket of hydras... release and boom! all units inside is lost
On May 07 2010 19:13 ZergOwaR wrote: well if the units inside die if you simply NP the medivac, that has to be a bug... but its would still be drop protection in the sense that a NP'ed medivac can be moved say right under a small bucket of hydras... release and boom! all units inside is lost
or you could just kill the medivac with the hydras while it being NPd
The new corruption ability should be a (small) area-of-effect spell. And the queen healing too. I don't know if that would make them overpowered, but that would make those abilitys actually fun to use.
I don't think that the Pheonix change can be all bad, although deceleration/acceleration animation negation would be better. They need to increase the cost of the Pheonix then increase its damage slightly if it's going to be that good.
It kind of also requires a reactive change to the corruptor imo. A good balance to me would be to give the corruptor attack a similar debuff effect to the devourer of BW. Something cool to me would be to have the animation shoot a unit-like projectile that sticks to the target like the devourer's acid spores, slowing the target's firing rate for a few seconds. You would have to hit it again to stack the effect. It would make sense, cutting into the muta numbers for anti-air protection, and would take skill to "catch" the Pheonix cluster with a few volleys, perhaps necessitating splitting up your air forces into two balls.
I don't mind the Pheonix being the most badass single non-massive air unit in the game, if its cost prohibits abusively massing them with no consequence. It then would take skill and micro to outmaneuver the muta force which would always be larger. I think with some tooling, this change can create a lot of depth of tension in PvZ.
On May 07 2010 19:20 shin ken wrote: The new corruption ability should be a (small) area-of-effect spell. And the queen healing too. I don't know if that would make them overpowered, but that would make those abilities actually fun to use.
It would probably make them overpowered, but I agree. The new corruption ability is pretty much only useful on massive units now. They counter battle cruisers even more now.They nerf all other abilities "in the name of ultralisk". They say they want to do the same for battle cruisers, but in the same patch they screw them over even more
On May 07 2010 20:15 leveller wrote: Lots of euros are talking about games being faster now. Is it the same for you Americans? Maybe somebody with accs on both servers could check it out.
I really don't find the game faster..Anoyone is experiencing this?
On May 07 2010 20:50 StifSokSamurai wrote: I was playing a game earlier and noticed that the neural parasite ability is no longer channeled! The only way now it seems to break NP is to kill the infestor, the mind controled unit or move the controled unit outside of the spell range of the infestor which is now rendered imobile during the duration of the controled units limited life. (If this has already be discussed then sorry for missing it but I did a bit of looking and couldn't find any word on it.)
I don't see a big problem with the HSM range decrease, if you want to you can target your own hellions for example and run them into your enemies...making it a real range of...a lot (if the hellion dies the HSM will explode where it died - I tried that serveral times).
In the previous patch they extended the immortal build time. In the latest patch they have reduced sentry damage. And now, somewhat unsurprisingly really, I am encountering in my games against zerg post patch 11 a lot of the previously abandoned roach rushing, often accompanied by a single gas steal to limit protoss gas collection.
So far, my experience has not been good. I am going to have to find some kind of readjustment to my early play against zerg.
On May 07 2010 20:15 leveller wrote: Lots of euros are talking about games being faster now. Is it the same for you Americans? Maybe somebody with accs on both servers could check it out.
Blizzard's attempt at trolling TL succeeded 10/10. Lalush, I'll pay you 50$ if you write an article that explains in detail why Lurkers should be put back into the game and Marauders removed. Who is with me?
On May 07 2010 21:45 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: In the previous patch they extended the immortal build time. In the latest patch they have reduced sentry damage. And now, somewhat unsurprisingly really, I am encountering in my games against zerg post patch 11 a lot of the previously abandoned roach rushing, often accompanied by a single gas steal to limit protoss gas collection.
So far, my experience has not been good. I am going to have to find some kind of readjustment to my early play against zerg.
In most maps you can still stall for a decent amount of time with Force Fields on your ramp, or just plain split them in two. Maps like Scrap Station and Kulas could be a problem since you need 2+ FFs to hold them out.
It surprised me that the Roach Rush didn't see a reemergence last patch, after the Immortal build time increase. That was the real kicker. Previously it was barely possible to have an Immortal out when the Roaches were already in your base about to kill Probes, on a map like Scrap. With 15s extra wait time they could do some serious damage. Trying to hold off Roaches with just a standard Gateway force while teching is pretty tough.
On May 07 2010 21:45 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: In the previous patch they extended the immortal build time. In the latest patch they have reduced sentry damage. And now, somewhat unsurprisingly really, I am encountering in my games against zerg post patch 11 a lot of the previously abandoned roach rushing, often accompanied by a single gas steal to limit protoss gas collection.
So far, my experience has not been good. I am going to have to find some kind of readjustment to my early play against zerg.
First off I play zerg in plat around 1700-1800, I know this post is going to sound biased but honestly I have agreed with all the nerfs to zerg so far. I was downloading this patch and I was shocked at how ridiculous some of the changes looked. I was frustrated so I tested it with a friend. Phoenix - Can now attack while moving. Blizzard -
Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks
I destroyed his muta with a few clicks ... this patch has to be some kind of joke. I remember in sc1 a vulture could attack while moving like this, but you would have to manually stop attack and keep going ,,, this requires no micro. So yes corrupters can handle the phoenixes with the new changes, but. the old corruption on the corrupter was replaced with
I don't see why the old corruption was taken out, I found it very useful for cannons and stopping building production, this new corruption is not effective at all to increase damage taken on invidivdual units especially at 100 energy. I also find it weird how it lasts so long on a unit, like a unit is going to survive that for 30 sec? This just sounds like an ability a group of people who play world of warcraft would use to kill a dragon or something. Compared to corruption, The phoenix's beam ability completely disables a unit, costs 50 energy and allows it to do some damage. Before this patch many toss players were developing a very strong phoenix strategy against zerg, Nony had really effective phoenix play from what I've seen. This patch just ruined ZvP completly. Playing against my friend's zerg, I was able to fly in and out of his base killing his queen and ovies on the way out. He was holding me off very well with hydra later as any good player would, but it didn't matter because even as I retreated I was doing so much damage to his economy by sniping ovies/queens/drones with ease with ridicules mobility. I was even able to snipe 3-4 lifted hydra as I retreated at times. I don't know what blizzard's thinking, an air unit can harass from so many different angles.. It felt so imbalanced and I am not even a toss player. Blizzard -
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.
So they wanted to protect the Ultralisk? A tier 3 unit that will come out way after the infester? Even in ZvT if the terran goes for a thor drop, the infestor still comes a little bit after the thor, after this change it will be very hard to defend with NP. Blizzard -
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
he This change really makes static defense useless against any type of early harassment. I always have to reposition my spine crawlers to adjust to harassment and even then ... some good players react and kill it before I can root it. 6 seconds was very fair. After this patch you are just giving your opponent free spine crawlers if you decide to reposition. Also, they never explained why they nerfed spores... they are now useless to defend against void rays/banshees.
Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Toss got something that hits air and ground and has detection. Spine crawlers dont have detection and cant hit air. Furthermore, the only antiair Z has (and not some lame queen) is the hydra or the spire, both requiring a lot of time to make, while terran has it as t1 unit and toss t1.5 if I say it correctly. Terran got an anti air turret that actually hits for a ton of dmg and also has detection. Did I mention that the spine crawler is the only Z "unit" that actually has +bonus dmg on armored? So do marauder, immortal and stalker. Imo, I rather want them static and be on the same lvl terran/toss got than their current status.
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote: As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.
Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.
AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.
Just occurred to me, have they fixed the bug where a Raven's PDD pointlessly shoot at roach acid?
Stuck at work and can't check this out but if anyone knows if this has been addressed I would love to hear it because now curiosity is scratching at my brain.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
That's just dumb, zerg needs mobility on their static defense, especially on maps like blistering sand.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone elses defence doesn't cost a drone to build.
On May 07 2010 20:50 StifSokSamurai wrote: I was playing a game earlier and noticed that the neural parasite ability is no longer channeled! The only way now it seems to break NP is to kill the infestor, the mind controled unit or move the controled unit outside of the spell range of the infestor which is now rendered imobile during the duration of the controled units limited life. (If this has already be discussed then sorry for missing it but I did a bit of looking and couldn't find any word on it.)
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote: As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.
Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.
AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.
You have to be kidding.
Thors got buffed against mutas, hellions got buffed in both speed and range. Thor/hellion was the number 1 strat, platinum level, vs zerg.
Phoenix was already difficult to deal with when mixed with VR and a player who abuses the fact the VR doesn't reset on target change. Now I can easily cite 10 times the amount of mutas vs Phoenix around the map.
Parasite takes longer to get than a it takes a toss to have a VR in your base, which makes no sense as blizzard claims this was to help against VR rushes...
Corruptors got a nice speed boost, but corruption was an extremely nice spell.
As for your "cute spells to win" spin.....Spells are and always have been a HUGE part of starcraft, I just have no other comment for that.
On May 08 2010 01:27 Therapist wrote: First off I play zerg in plat around 1700-1800, I know this post is going to sound biased but honestly I have agreed with all the nerfs to zerg so far. I was downloading this patch and I was shocked at how ridiculous some of the changes looked. I was frustrated so I tested it with a friend. Phoenix - Can now attack while moving. Blizzard -
Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks
I destroyed his muta with a few clicks ... this patch has to be some kind of joke. I remember in sc1 a vulture could attack while moving like this, but you would have to manually stop attack and keep going ,,, this requires no micro. So yes corrupters can handle the phoenixes with the new changes, but. the old corruption on the corrupter was replaced with
I don't see why the old corruption was taken out, I found it very useful for cannons and stopping building production, this new corruption is not effective at all to increase damage taken on invidivdual units especially at 100 energy. I also find it weird how it lasts so long on a unit, like a unit is going to survive that for 30 sec? This just sounds like an ability a group of people who play world of warcraft would use to kill a dragon or something. Compared to corruption, The phoenix's beam ability completely disables a unit, costs 50 energy and allows it to do some damage. Before this patch many toss players were developing a very strong phoenix strategy against zerg, Nony had really effective phoenix play from what I've seen. This patch just ruined ZvP completly. Playing against my friend's zerg, I was able to fly in and out of his base killing his queen and ovies on the way out. He was holding me off very well with hydra later as any good player would, but it didn't matter because even as I retreated I was doing so much damage to his economy by sniping ovies/queens/drones with ease with ridicules mobility. I was even able to snipe 3-4 lifted hydra as I retreated at times. I don't know what blizzard's thinking, an air unit can harass from so many different angles.. It felt so imbalanced and I am not even a toss player. Blizzard -
The changes to Neural Parasite are there to try to protect the Ultralisk from being mind controlled too easily. It is also consistent with what we think the power level of the ability is against Thor and other units. We have also buffed the ability to allow it to target air units so you can use it as a defense against Void Rays.
So they wanted to protect the Ultralisk? A tier 3 unit that will come out way after the infester? Even in ZvT if the terran goes for a thor drop, the infestor still comes a little bit after the thor, after this change it will be very hard to defend with NP. Blizzard -
At some levels of play we are seeing spine crawlers used to protect a Zerg player until can advance to some dangerous technology (like Mutalisks). In these cases players are using Spine Crawlers almost exclusively to defend themselves and the ability to move the Crawler as a way to protect not only their base but their expansion as well. We want there to be a higher cost to this strategy and more risk associated with choosing to go “Only Spine Crawler.”
he This change really makes static defense useless against any type of early harassment. I always have to reposition my spine crawlers to adjust to harassment and even then ... some good players react and kill it before I can root it. 6 seconds was very fair. After this patch you are just giving your opponent free spine crawlers if you decide to reposition. Also, they never explained why they nerfed spores... they are now useless to defend against void rays/banshees.
I am in your division with similar ratings (14xx) before I stopped playing due to finals. I completely agree with you. I said basically the same things as you did about 20 pages back... in nerd rage form lol.
Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.
That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
On May 08 2010 02:02 NightOfTheDead wrote: Give the ultralisk ability
Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.
That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05
the reason why ultralisks r bad is not because of their stats its because they r huge and not many of them can attack at once. their size can be abused so hard second reason is that force field makes melee units useless 3rd reason is because marauder can kite them and they will never reach terran and last reason is that zergs melee dmg tech tree is worse than the range tech tree because lings r pretty lame
best ultra buff right now would be to nerf sentry (check), thor nerf (check), only zergling buff and ultralisk resize is left
On May 08 2010 02:02 NightOfTheDead wrote: Give the ultralisk ability
Rampage: Ultralisk enrages grating him 25% speed increase and 15-20% dmg reduction for 8-10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown.
That would effectively bring Ultralisk back in the game as line breaker unit that would be harder to focus fire early in the fight. That what it needs.Last edit: 2010-05-08 01:50:05
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote: As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.
Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.
AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.
You have to be kidding.
Thors got buffed against mutas, hellions got buffed in both speed and range. Thor/hellion was the number 1 strat, platinum level, vs zerg.
Phoenix was already difficult to deal with when mixed with VR and a player who abuses the fact the VR doesn't reset on target change. Now I can easily cite 10 times the amount of mutas vs Phoenix around the map.
Parasite takes longer to get than a it takes a toss to have a VR in your base, which makes no sense as blizzard claims this was to help against VR rushes...
Corruptors got a nice speed boost, but corruption was an extremely nice spell.
As for your "cute spells to win" spin.....Spells are and always have been a HUGE part of starcraft, I just have no other comment for that.
I don't see anything in the notes about hellion speed (I'm assuming movement speed). The Thors GTA dmg stayed the same (8+4 to 6+6 = still 12 dmg to light)...
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
can you seriously stop being so blindly biased for 1/2 a second? spine crawler =100+drone=150 photon cannon=150
Spore=75+drone=125 Missile turret=100+mining time Photon cannon=150
spine crawlers and spore crawlers BOTH have a range of 7 Photon cannons have a range of, guess what, 7 Missile turret starting range is, oh my god, 7
you might want to do a little research or play one of the other races before making a bullshit post like that.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone elses defence doesn't cost a drone to build.
yeah because its more expensive to build the other defenses, ever thought of that? blizz took into account the cost of a drone.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
can you seriously stop being so blindly biased for 1/2 a second? spine crawler =100+drone=150 photon cannon=150
Spore=75+drone=125 Missile turret=100+mining time Photon cannon=150
spine crawlers and spore crawlers BOTH have a range of 7 Photon cannons have a range of, guess what, 7 Missile turret starting range is, oh my god, 7
you might want to do a little research or play one of the other races before making a bullshit post like that.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone elses defence doesn't cost a drone to build.
yeah because its more expensive to build the other defenses, ever thought of that? blizz took into account the cost of a drone.
A drone does not equal 50 minerals lost.
A photon cannon shoots both air and ground and has higher dps.
A turret can be upgraded to have longer range, and has higher dps than spores.
Both builds faster and are cheaper.
Have you even tried to defend against void rays or banshees with spores? It's almost impossible at it is, now it will be just that: Impossible.
give the ultralisk an ability to temporary reduce range damage so they can get in the fight or give us the lurker. the immortal and the colossus don't have such a problem because they are the backbone of the toss army with lots of range. hydras also have a limited window of opportunity as far as their usefulness goes due to the colossus and templars. if i could turn them into heavy hitters tier 3 i wont feel like i wasted a ton on gas tier2 for a pile of ash. 12 second spore/spine crawlers is way too slow. force field should need to be researched. mauraders shouldn't get stim-pack. the phoenix moves way to fast. the attack move i dont mind but their move speed is abusive to overlords. queens should be able to do more dmg vs air or make hydras 1.5 and roaches tier 2 or make spore burrow faster. this is prolly very biased.
On May 08 2010 01:52 Powda wrote: As a Random player, this patch just feels really anti zerg.
Almost every change had a negative effect on Zerg.
AS a random/zerg player I feel this is a huge buff to zerg. Sentries nerfed, thors nerfed, colossus huge nerf vs lings. The only things you got nerfed were things that were abused like broodlords, and neutral paraisite. I used neutral parasite some but i believe in having more units instead of relying on cute spells to win.
You have to be kidding.
Thors got buffed against mutas, hellions got buffed in both speed and range. Thor/hellion was the number 1 strat, platinum level, vs zerg.
Phoenix was already difficult to deal with when mixed with VR and a player who abuses the fact the VR doesn't reset on target change. Now I can easily cite 10 times the amount of mutas vs Phoenix around the map.
Parasite takes longer to get than a it takes a toss to have a VR in your base, which makes no sense as blizzard claims this was to help against VR rushes...
Corruptors got a nice speed boost, but corruption was an extremely nice spell.
As for your "cute spells to win" spin.....Spells are and always have been a HUGE part of starcraft, I just have no other comment for that.
I don't see anything in the notes about hellion speed (I'm assuming movement speed). The Thors GTA dmg stayed the same (8+4 to 6+6 = still 12 dmg to light)...
Right, but the splash change to center on the unit is what made the difference. Thor's decimate mutas now.
On May 07 2010 21:45 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: In the previous patch they extended the immortal build time. In the latest patch they have reduced sentry damage. And now, somewhat unsurprisingly really, I am encountering in my games against zerg post patch 11 a lot of the previously abandoned roach rushing, often accompanied by a single gas steal to limit protoss gas collection.
So far, my experience has not been good. I am going to have to find some kind of readjustment to my early play against zerg.
Immortal builds can do well off of just 1 Gas, so I'd consider that a boon that he's wasting minerals on me.
On May 07 2010 05:40 Nilaus wrote: Interesting patch to say the least.
I think we are going to see a lot of Stargate plays from Protoss. Phoenix buffed and Void Ray as powerful as ever. I am a bit puzzled on how Terran is supposed to counter that. Void Rays were hard enough and now we can add Phoenixes to the mix. I guess Marine + Ghost will be necessary, though it seems rather vulnerable to sniping Ghosts.
Will be fun to play and learn the subtle consequences of the changes.
oh my god, terrans might actually have to build marines???? instead of marauders??????????????????????????????????
phoenix isn't 'that' bad though.. air superiority but they still can't really do much against ground if you have static defense.
in that video we see 3 phoenix vs 2 mutas, and the 2 mutas are almost able to kill one of the phoenix.... not so bad considering phoenix were intended to counter mutas in the first place.
On May 07 2010 05:40 Nilaus wrote: Interesting patch to say the least.
I think we are going to see a lot of Stargate plays from Protoss. Phoenix buffed and Void Ray as powerful as ever. I am a bit puzzled on how Terran is supposed to counter that. Void Rays were hard enough and now we can add Phoenixes to the mix. I guess Marine + Ghost will be necessary, though it seems rather vulnerable to sniping Ghosts.
Will be fun to play and learn the subtle consequences of the changes.
oh my god, terrans might actually have to build marines???? instead of marauders??????????????????????????????????
Quick increase marine build time by 25% again. I hate it when terran players make marines.
I like a lot of the changes, but did the hellion really need a friggin' BUFF?!?!
I feel like the thor 250 mm cannons were overnerfed. Same with the infestor ability (might have needed a nerf but a 150/150 tech cost and double energy req is quite steep).
Personally I've always wanted spine crawlers to get a build time buff but now they are getting a root nerf. Build time buff so you can actually start building them 10 seconds before they push out and they'll finish in time, atm you have to build them RIDICULOUSLY early.
watched that new phoenix movie a few more times.... it doesn't look so bad, it significantly alters the PvZ mu's but you can still use muta to pressure. being able to mass muta and then walk over the protoss was pretty boring...
a protoss that spams phoenix is pretty vulnerable against zerglings.
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone else's defense has longer range and costs less.
can you seriously stop being so blindly biased for 1/2 a second? spine crawler =100+drone=150 photon cannon=150
Spore=75+drone=125 Missile turret=100+mining time Photon cannon=150
spine crawlers and spore crawlers BOTH have a range of 7 Photon cannons have a range of, guess what, 7 Missile turret starting range is, oh my god, 7
you might want to do a little research or play one of the other races before making a bullshit post like that.
On May 08 2010 01:56 Gnaix wrote:
On May 08 2010 01:46 Ghostcom wrote:
On May 08 2010 01:39 Lollersauce wrote: Pretty much what therapist said. ZvP is just stupidly pigeonholed now. Best part is 12 seconds to reposition spores/spines. One less reason to build them now against early harass and particularly air.
Everyone elses defence is actually static, that you can move it at all is just a big bonus. If it had been 12 seconds always you would be thinking "sweet, sunkes that can actually move?! - Sure I have to make sure I'll have to distract my enemy whilst they root, but now I don't have to morph in sunkens everywhere but can simply move these around".
Everyone elses defence doesn't cost a drone to build.
yeah because its more expensive to build the other defenses, ever thought of that? blizz took into account the cost of a drone.
A drone does not equal 50 minerals lost.
A photon cannon shoots both air and ground and has higher dps.
A turret can be upgraded to have longer range, and has higher dps than spores.
Both builds faster and are cheaper.
Have you even tried to defend against void rays or banshees with spores? It's almost impossible at it is, now it will be just that: Impossible.
True a drone doesn't equal 50 minerals lost, but then again, zerg has the option of getting drones much faster than other races can get their workers, hence I would be surprised if there was a substantial difference in the long run.
Photon canons take 40 seconds, spore crawlers take 30!!!!!!! whilst spine crawlers take 50.
The spore crawler also happens to do more DPS than a photon canon, but granted less than a turret.
You also leave out of the equation that: A) spine crawlers get +dmg to armored B) both spines and spores are biological (which is actually pretty huge) C) both spines and spores got armor 2
Zerg also happens to have a queen which is a VERY good anti-air unit early game.
And yes I have tried to defend with spores, and if you think that something like rooting time will make defending harder you got a horrible sim-city.
The reason for rooting to be nerfed was probably due to people who would spam spines and then as their creeptumors spread they would do a slow push towards the enemy base, together with the army. For defensive purposes it doesn't matter as long as you do a proper sim city.
Now, I don't want to alarm anyone or anything, but this seemed odd:
Dear Amazon.com Customer,
The Amazon Video Games team thanks you for your pre-order of StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty. Now it's time to get you your pre-order bonus code to participate in the Starcraft II beta.
This code will give you access to the StarCraft II beta. This beta will be available through May 17th.
Now, does that mean the Beta is ending on May 17th, the Beta Key is only valid if you input it before May 17th, pre-order customers get kicked out of the Beta on May 17th and rest of us stay in, or Amazon.com is just spouting gibberish?
Seems rather abrupt given the big wad of changes we just received.
Edit: Gamestop emails apparently say 05/31 for the same thing, so its probably just an expiration of the key itself.
It's definatly an expiration of the key - they haven't finished tweaking the ultralisk as they pointed out themselves in their explanation of patch 11.
"And no, it does not mean that mutas are useless now vs phoenix, one infestor with fungal growth and all that "insane kiting" goes out the window. Corruptor range is also 2 greater than that of the phoenix and counts as armoured, but god forbid zerg players would have to use their dedicated air-air unit to gain air superiority against another dedicated air-air unit. All this does is force players to get a more diverse army, rather than mass muta and own the skies vs protoss."
I agree with this. Honestly, I think zerg players are abit spoiled when it came to mutalisk. Granted, I'm not a pro, I placed Gold Leauge (which means my opinion probably holds no weight, but I will state it regardless), but Protoss really had a tough time countering muta harass. The pheonix just wan't cutting it as an air superiority unit. It was difficult to do any timing pushes against mass muta because the second you tried to do any push with sentries/stalkers/zealots the muta would harass your economy line, forcing you to pull back. Every game I played against zerg was becoming like that, I either had to go all in and try and blow out his base while he demolished mine with muta or I had to play very defensely and bounce back between expands and mains to fend off muta harass - all the meanwhile zerg is massing expands and lots of roaches/hydra/lings to supplement the mutas.
I believe dedicated zerg players just became accustomed to owning the skies against protoss that they actually think it was working as intended, when clearly the protoss are suppose to have some decent air units (they did in BW, the corsair was mighty)
I think the changes to the Pheonix are in-line. It gives the protoss a counter to muta harass early in the game. If I remember correctly, the original intentions of the Pheonix was suppose to be a hard counter vs the muta (remember the spell they had in the alpha footage?) I think blizzard is slowly coming around to making the Pheonix what they really wanted to make it: a superior air-to-air unit.
I see alot of people asking about hidden changes, here are some:
Dark Templars movement speed increased Motherships movement speed increased (when it reaches full acceleration) Carriers movement speed increased (when reaching full acceleration) Ultralist movement speed increased (on and off creep) Pheonix can move while casting spells as well (instead of complete stop)
On May 08 2010 02:43 gankthoven wrote: give the ultralisk an ability to temporary reduce range damage so they can get in the fight or give us the lurker. the immortal and the colossus don't have such a problem because they are the backbone of the toss army with lots of range. hydras also have a limited window of opportunity as far as their usefulness goes due to the colossus and templars. if i could turn them into heavy hitters tier 3 i wont feel like i wasted a ton on gas tier2 for a pile of ash. 12 second spore/spine crawlers is way too slow. force field should need to be researched. mauraders shouldn't get stim-pack. the phoenix moves way to fast. the attack move i dont mind but their move speed is abusive to overlords. queens should be able to do more dmg vs air or make hydras 1.5 and roaches tier 2 or make spore burrow faster. this is prolly very biased.
I like that idea. Give ultra a low energy bar.. that takes the damage first.. a shield really. Then we're golden. Make them smaller and give them charge... then we can use them against other units besides T1 units. i agree spines should build faster. and bring back 6 seconds 12 is ridiculous anyone vs proxy cannons will know this. make them walk faster at least if 12 seconds!! air rush isnt really that hard guys. just get a second queen asap.. spores are useless until the initial harass is over. marauders need just a slight nerf really. its getting boring . maybe less range would do it and then a range upgrade( that doesnt toake 1 millisecond and 0 money like the concossive shells)... doesnt really make sense currently.
I see alot of people asking about hidden changes, here are some:
Dark Templars movement speed increased Motherships movement speed increased (when it reaches full acceleration) Carriers movement speed increased (when reaching full acceleration) Ultralist movement speed increased (on and off creep) Pheonix can move while casting spells as well (instead of complete stop)
[/b]
I don't believe any of those except the last one.
Ultras still move as fast as Hydras on and off creep, so if Ultras' speed was buffed, so was Hydras'. And Roaches still move as fast as Hydras on and off creep, so if Hydras' speed was buffed, so was Roaches'.
Maybe someone tested on EU servers where everyone's speed has been buffed, but so have building times.
Was thinking about this patch and I've got some ideas:
-Ultras need more changes - Even blizzard says so. It can't fulfill it's duty as tank and ppl have suggested a few ways to fix this (Cap maximum damage it gets from each source, like hardened shield; make it walk over smaller units; remove armored type of armor). Just a idea, remove the armored type of armor and replace it with "ultra-armored". A new type of armor that (for now) doesn't take extra damage from any source, yet it's still armored (ia real way...). -Corruptors need a (usefull) spell - I didn't liked this 20%+ damage thing, and I think the major issue with the corruptor right now is giving it a real role, and introducing a remarkable spell is the way to go without causing many combat balance issues. So I had this idea: replace the actual corrupt for a "spawn corruption colony" - costs xx energy/resources or has a set number per corruptor (like the vulture had mines), each use spawns a flying, static, mine that charges foward any flying nearby enemies and cause damage/slows downs or a mix of these effects. Would work nice with the new phoenix and create a new layer of strategy (like mines did in BW, creating defensive perimeters), adding some depth to the unit and solving it's boreness. -Infestor need a replacement for infested terran - never liked this spell anyway. It's just gross how x infested marines "pop up" from the ground. can't think of a nice solution tough.
the concept of ultras is just useless in sc2, 4 roaches are cheaper and tank just as well as an ultra. roaches also move faster, have more range, and are available at tier 1 right after zerglings there is no point of teching all the way up to hive and wait for two more upgrades just to have a unit that is less effective than roaches they have to make ultras better than just roaches or there would be no point getting them
On May 13 2010 07:37 Scope wrote: I really like the flying vulture mine idea for corruptors.
Surely that's not because you're a zerg player...
Yes, it's cool for Zerg players, but so it is the warp in for protoss, the terran wall in, etc, etc, etc. What makes this game cool is that each race has it's cool stuff and that's what matters, balance can be done in a number of ways later, for now what matters is what's fun, and the corruptor is just too plain as it is to be definitive.
Each race unique and balanced, thats SC way. If everything were to be equal and just we could play chess, but here style counts. Wish I could get a little more feedback on the "corruption mine", would be the case to open a thread? I'm new to this forum, I don't feel ok doing it... -__-''
EPT
^^
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