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Hi@all.
One thing that is kinda missing in SC2 is a good reason for your Units to move out on the Map and not only camp in your base until your ready to attack. With much greater mobilitiy of all the races, it's even harder to move out on the Map, because you're taking quite a risk by doing so. All the more reason that the game rewards you for taking that risk, which SC2 simply doesn't do atm.
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: You could secure an advantageous position on the Map to partially contain the enemy and/or control key-positions on the Map. With no real highground-advantage and Blizzard saying their happy with that, my Idea was just to look at other possible incentives to move out on the Map, because I just think it's boring when the players are best served just turtelling in their bases and only moving out to attack or secure an additional expansion.
Terrain with some sort of DMG-Reduction/Armor-Bonus/Miss-Percentage for the Enemy:
This is basically a staple in so many RTS-Games and could be easily implemented in SC2. Instead of the Highground giving you some sort of defensive Bonus, why not create a Terrain, like high grass or sth, that would serve that purpose? One thing Blizzard likes about their highground-system in SC2 is, that it's so clear and easy to understand - either you see, or you don't see; nothing random and the Bonus is very clear. With different Terrains clearly indicating that it's in some way harder to shoot at the enemy within and maybe a not randomized system (+Armor or DMG-Reduction by a certain percentage) this system would be fairly easy to understand IMHO.
Mines:
One major reason to move out on the Map in all the MU's involving Vultures has been clearing out Mines, so besides Mines being awesome, they'd even make the game much more interesting to play and watch!
Map-Architecture:
The Mappool is just so biased towards rush-based strategies, with backdoor-rocks you can destroy, overall kinda small Maps etc.
With bigger Maps with some positions that will be advantageous for you to hold, you could give the players a reason to move out on the Map. I'm thinking about small bridges like on Destination where you could contain the enemy without totally commiting to an attack, highground in front of the enemy's base that would at least give you the small highground-advantage SC2 has atm in the early-game and just Maps that are less favouring rushes and cheesey play.
More Xel-Naga-Towers on harder to reach Locations:
- I'm thinking about Locations that are maybe easy to get to from one players base and therefore easy to defend, but for the opposing player to get to them, he'd have to maybe destroy rocks and therefore need to move an Army there. Like a far out reaching small highground-patch you can access from your main/nat with a tower that gives you a lot of vision, but with another entrance that is easier to access for the enemy but blocked by rocks.
- Another possibility could be More Xel-Naga-Towers on small highground-areas, so you have to fly your Unit up there with a dropship or sth. or get sth up there that can jump over cliffs. Maybe also with rocks blocking a ramp so you can also kill the scouting Unit by moving an Army there and kicking the rock.
Neutral Static-defense on Key-positions:
Maybe some kind of neutral Bunkers or Cannons you gain control over when standing there with your Units.
Ressource-Generators powered by the number of Units standing there:
Some sort of a Position you have to hold with your Units that will produce a certain amount of ressources for you without having to build a structure and/or sending workers there. Just depending on how large the food-count of your Army standing next to it is with enemy Units being distracted from your food-count when they stand near it.
Any1 have some other intersting Idea's?
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Well, as a zerg player, a good reason for me to move my units out is to maintain map control and deny expansions. Maybe its different if your playing terran, but as zerg you are always running your lings around scouting and what not.
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How about high ground advantage so winning isn't always whoever has the biggest army? Also better maps will always be nice. Like you said I have trouble pushing out when people can raid me so easily so I just sit tight on my natural and really theres not much reason to move out.
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what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
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Woah, easy there dude. You don't need to be so condescending.
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Scouting, Watch Towers, Gold Expands, Harrassment, Expo Denial, and General Map Control are all perfectly fine reasons to move out from your natural.
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On May 04 2010 16:02 jtype wrote:
Woah, easy there dude. You don't need to be so condescending.
It's ok he's blind
lol jk.
On topic, well I do think there's more reason for Zerg to move out in order to expand their creep and such, but there's a big difference between terrans and protoss in sc1 and sc2 the tension between spider mines and map control was a big reason for moving out in sc1
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There's plenty of incentive to move out of your base and onto the map. Having map control is very important.
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I agree with this one. Unless you're ready to make a move on your opponent's base, it doesn't make sense to move out on the map.
And as clear cut as the high ground advantage seems, it never seems to play out well in the game, whether it's melee units or medivacs, the advantage is lost extremely quickly.
Also map control is never controlling key points with the advantage they give you, map control is kept by having a bigger army than your opponent and sitting at the exit of the natural or the bottom of the ramp with it. (or air units but that's not what we're talking about)
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On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
1) Scout towers are maybe important to hold with your army in certain MU's (TvT for example), but mostly, you just send 1 Unit there and that's about it.
2) Additional Expansion are something I've named in the Post, but expanding just isn't enough, because it's still better to just Mass up and do a timing-attack in most MU's. Besides, it's not really better if you're turtelling on three bases than on 2 - it's just boring!
3) Not everyone is depending on cheesey strats like proxying to win. ^^'
Btw. I've played nearly 800 Games and am high Platin right now and athough a good fainboy'ism
is not that bad, it's not always best to be all defensive when someone tries to give constructive
criticism...
@lightning2k3 :
I think Zerg is a bit different from the other Races concerning moving out on the Map, just because they are so fast. It's really easy to gain Mapcontrol with Zerg at certain stages of the Game and it's always good to have some Speedlings out on the Map to surround enemy Units, counterattack or stuff like that.
In addition to that, So many Units have the ability to totally "trap" your Units, like Speedling-Surrounds, Marauders that pin your army down, Force-fields that keep you from retreating, Fungal Growth and so on, that it's nearly impossible to move out on the Map if you're not ready to engage your enemy in a straight-up-battle.
But if you imagine a slow-moving Terran Army with Tanks, Thors etc. or a standard-protoss army - what's the incentive here to move out? It's so easy to get surrounded by Speedlings, Counterattacked etc. and there is no real advantage in moving out, so it's easy to understand no Terran/Protoss-players really does it.
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@williowa
thats not true at all. Even if he has a bigger army, if i can scout that he is pushing out and i backstab with lings, hes forced to pull back and defend, or lose his base. Things like that are only possible if you have map control and good scouting info.
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On May 04 2010 16:30 lightning2k3 wrote:
@williowa
thats not true at all. Even if he has a bigger army, if i can scout that he is pushing out and i backstab with lings, hes forced to pull back and defend, or lose his base. Things like that are only possible if you have map control and good scouting info.
And that's exactly why T/P doesn't like to go out on the Map against Zerg, or even the other races for that matter. ^^'
But as said above, Zerg are a bit differrent concerning this Issue than the other races. I guess with a fast army, creep-tumors, the need to have more expansions than other races etc. Zerg has a good amount of incentives to move out on the Map, but more couldn't hurt I guess...
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I think its absolutely essential for zerg to have forces around the map. Speedling flanking does incredible damage against all three races, and is the only way to counter forcefield (using ground units).
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On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage:
right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground.
T_T
high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate.
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On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate.
Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent
who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into
a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol.
Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive,
Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage.
Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?...
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On May 04 2010 16:15 Williowa wrote:
I agree with this one. Unless you're ready to make a move on your opponent's base, it doesn't make sense to move out on the map.
And as clear cut as the high ground advantage seems, it never seems to play out well in the game, whether it's melee units or medivacs, the advantage is lost extremely quickly.
Also map control is never controlling key points with the advantage they give you, map control is kept by having a bigger army than your opponent and sitting at the exit of the natural or the bottom of the ramp with it. (or air units but that's not what we're talking about)
lol, no 
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Moving out is pretty much pointless because of
1) Marauders
2) Force Field
If you end up meeting a bigger army, you can get a big portion of your army chopped up retreating.
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On May 04 2010 16:48 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate. Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol. Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive, Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage. Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?...
well if that's what you meant then why didnt you say so. no need to hide your ideas and bait people.
who's whining? your point seems strange. players move out on the map already in order to take key watch towers and expand and creep. good players know this and do it already. players at low platinum and below merely turtle in base because they cant handle the multitasking of moving their army and macroing (which is minimal, especially in this game)
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The thing is, hiding in your base and macroing can be just effective as moving around the map and macroing with the benefit of increased security around the base. If you want to see map control in action, watch more SCBW TvT. It's basically a fight that revolves around map control.
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On May 04 2010 17:09 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:48 kickinhead wrote:On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate. Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol. Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive, Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage. Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?... well if that's what you meant then why didnt you say so. no need to hide your ideas and bait people. who's whining? your point seems strange. players move out on the map already in order to take key watch towers and expand and creep. good players know this and do it already. players at low platinum and below merely turtle in base because they cant handle the multitasking of moving their army and macroing (which is minimal, especially in this game)
Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough, but I surely had no intention of hiding my intentions and baiting ppl.
To be totally clear: with moving out on the Map I mean stuff like that in SCBW:
1) Slight Containments with a few Dragoons, Lurkers, Tanks etc.
2) getting a few Dragoons out on the Map to kill Mines and snipe scouting Workers, incoming Dropships/Overlords/Shuttles etc.
3) Positioning Units to Counterattack.
4) Getting up a Tankline/Lurkers/Dragoons on a highground between your and your opponents base.
5) Moving out with a small "Guerilla-Force" to test out the opponents defenses while not fully commiting to an attack.
Now for the reasons why I think those Tactics aren't that viable or even possible in SC2:
1) First of all, the Map-Architecture often features way's to move out of your base other than through just one entrance, which makes a containment basically uneffective (distructable rocks on BS, Kulas, Incineration Zone, Steppes of War or DO with 2 ways to go out on the Map from your Natural).
Other Maps are just too open at your Natural, like Metalopolis. In addition to that, there is the much higher mobility of the races that don't depend on "just walking over the Map", like Warp-In's, Nydus-Worms, Dropships/Shuttles/Overlords, Moving while burrowed, hopping over cliffs, Flying Units etc.
2) Of course, you can't get out on the Map to kill mines because there are no Mines in SC2. Also, it's just so hard to move out with little Groups of Units, because if you encounter the main-Army of your opponent, it's very hard to retreat without suffering "terrible, terrible Damage" - Marauders pin your whole Army down, Speedlings surround you in no time, Force-Fields cut off your escape-route or Fungal Growth pwns you etc.
3) For certain Races/Unitcombinations, this is still a viable strat, but for others, you suffer the same problems as the ones mentioned above.
4) While on some Maps it's still good to secure certain positions (like on Kulas, where I often position my Army at one of the Towers or on Metalopolis, where I position myself at the highground out of the enemys base), on most maps, there is just not any highground at good positions between you and your enemys base, additionally, there is no real highground-advantage anyways.
5) Same Problem as described in "2)" and "3)"...
And for players moving out in SC2:
Of course there are Situations where it's good to do that and very good players know the timings where they can safely move out to try to contain the enemy, scout for expansions and snipe them, kick some creep-tumors or other stuff, but I think that is more the exception than the rule, because even in Zotac-Finals and other tournaments, you basically always see Protoss/T only moving out when they do their timing-attack or when they do more or less cheesey stuff with drops/reaper-harrass...
But I'd really like ppl to think of this thread as something Blizzard might actually read and consider the Ideas gathered here, I'll even write the ones I consider as good in the OP, of course while mentioning the person that came up with it, so plz post Ideas here and don't get lost in descussing misunderstandings or hypothesizing about intentions etc.
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One reason is because if you don't ever move out you turn into a macro only machine with a reputation for no early / mid game pressure that everyone in the Korean pro league can beat easily.
Who knows it might even make you BM.
Don't forget that at the moment we have the worlds tiniest map pool, and the future map designers can sweep away most of those issues with one stroke of their virtual brush.
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you have to move out if you're playing to win..
i see many players in the lower leagues who are too afraid to move out and eventually they lose the game slowly but surely
usually i keep rallying troops to my opponents' base and try to be as aggresive as possible. then it turns out to be a 'how-fast-u-can-macro' fest ..
don be afraid to push out and lose units, if they die, macro up another army and push again. moving out is essential to win.
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There are plenty of positions that are advantageous to hold.... And high ground is important to have regardless if they have vision or not... Also controlling the chokes are vital... And pushing out... Too many positives.... It give you the decision of when to engage or when to fall back for another position//group of reinforcements.
As a zerg I push creep and bring my groups along with it. I find by a certain time in the game, if all things go accordingly, I am rallying my forces to the -centre+ of the map.
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I kind of agree, at least earlier on in the game. There's so many situations where it's really dangerous even to move out at all, until you have a big enough force to feel comfortable to push and actually engage.
Things like forcefield, marauder's snare, and zerglings being faster than zealots/marines even without speed upgrade are all big reasons why it's super dangerous to move out with your first few units early in the game. You can't just poke around and then fall back and save your units very easily at all.
A bit later on once you have a decent amount of units, like maybe 6+ or so, then I disagree that moving out is bad. But you can't just send your first marine to a zerg's base anymore to poke around like in SC1, for example, because he'll get surrounded by faster lings and killed. Before one of the patches it was dangerous to move out with your first zealot/stalker as well because of the marauder snare. In fact, when marauders still had their snare automatically, you were literally suiciding your first zealot/stalker if you put it anywhere in range of the terran's base.
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On May 05 2010 12:40 MrStorkie wrote:
you have to move out if you're playing to win..
i see many players in the lower leagues who are too afraid to move out and eventually they lose the game slowly but surely
usually i keep rallying troops to my opponents' base and try to be as aggresive as possible. then it turns out to be a 'how-fast-u-can-macro' fest ..
don be afraid to push out and lose units, if they die, macro up another army and push again. moving out is essential to win.
Seems to me everyone on the forum that keeps units active around the map are zerg which only reinforces that point.
And I don't think spamming units at your opponents base is at all what this thread was talking about.
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I'm really... surprised by the amount of both negativity and disagreement with the OP. I think he makes a lot of really great points.
Unfortunately, while I agree with you that map control is a fun part of a strategy game, your analysis as to why map control is less crucial are right on the money, and Blizzard has basically said that they won't change any of this. I do like the idea of mines...
Although getting narrowly off-topic, blizzard's explanation that highground where "ya-can't-shoot-what-ya-can't-see" is how it is "more intuitive" is really dumb. Every single person who played Starcraft at all realized that shots missed when they shot up cliffs because they literally did not come in contact with the enemy unit. You see it once, and you figure it out. What the hell is so hard about that?
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coming from wc3, this was a problem with sc2 that I noticed right away.
in warcraft 3 if you turtled you would get owned because of creep gold, xp, and items. not to mention shops/expos/fountains. in wc3 there is action from beginning to end, and it was a rare occasion when all the creeps are gone, expoing is too risky, so both players macro up for 10mins.
this happens way too often in sc2, it makes the game boring to watch and play. one positive thing is that there seems to be more conflict now than when the beta first started. there is a lot more harassing with drops and flying units, and players seem more aggressive about attacking expansions and expanding themselves.
I really hope turtling becomes less and less prevalent as players become better, otherwise this game will never be an exciting e-sport.
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I've always been against high ground advantage. It adds too much randomness, which shouldn't be in rts games. There's many reason to move out on the map, and the biggest reason is controlling the map. Plus blizzard said they were not going to change this, so why keep arguing about it?
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On May 05 2010 14:01 Mios wrote:
coming from wc3, this was a problem with sc2 that I noticed right away.
in warcraft 3 if you turtled you would get owned because of creep gold, xp, and items. not to mention shops/expos/fountains. in wc3 there is action from beginning to end, and it was a rare occasion when all the creeps are gone, expoing is too risky, so both players macro up for 10mins.
this happens way too often in sc2, it makes the game boring to watch and play. one positive thing is that there seems to be more conflict now than when the beta first started. there is a lot more harassing with drops and flying units, and players seem more aggressive about attacking expansions and expanding themselves.
I really hope turtling becomes less and less prevalent as players become better, otherwise this game will never be an exciting e-sport.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing wc3. But watching it had to be the most boring thing ever. Starcraft 2 is very fun to watch. I think like you said ppl are just not experienced yet and soon you'll see better gameplay.
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I think part of the problem here is that splitting your army, say even a very few stalkers, puts you at a huge disadvantage for very little gain since it is virtually impossible to escape with them (maybe w/ blink) and losing those couple of units might very well cost you the game if it is a close fight. That basically leaves us with the only thing being separate from armies is scouting workers and detectors (obs mainly), the xelnaga watchtowers also promote this type of play.
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On May 05 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:06 kyama wrote:
I've always been against high ground advantage. It adds too much randomness, which shouldn't be in rts games. There's many reason to move out on the map, and the biggest reason is controlling the map. Plus blizzard said they were not going to change this, so why keep arguing about it?
1: You need to read more than the first few lines in the OP before posting
and
2: Explain how strategically placing units on the high ground is LOL SO RANDOM XD
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On May 04 2010 15:59 wolfe wrote:
How about high ground advantage so winning isn't always whoever has the biggest army? Also better maps will always be nice. Like you said I have trouble pushing out when people can raid me so easily so I just sit tight on my natural and really theres not much reason to move out.
As noted in one of the news posts, high ground advantage is a pretty big factor in the "i have a bigger army" race. No high ground advantage severely limits any option of staying alive with a smaller army in favor of some tech play.
That said, you can still move out for all other reasons you used to move out for in BW. Map control, expansions, pressure, harass, etc.
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as far as expoing goes, it can be delayed a lot longer in most cases due to having two gas at each spawn... expanding isn't immediately necessary if you can get twice is much gas
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On May 05 2010 15:50 Toran7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:06 kyama wrote:
I've always been against high ground advantage. It adds too much randomness, which shouldn't be in rts games. There's many reason to move out on the map, and the biggest reason is controlling the map. Plus blizzard said they were not going to change this, so why keep arguing about it? 1: You need to read more than the first few lines in the OP before posting and 2: Explain how strategically placing units on the high ground is LOL SO RANDOM XD
I guess he meant the fact that whether your Units hit or miss up the highround was random.
But why is this such a problem? In fact, random (miss and hit having the same chance of occuring every single shot) is a very fair distribution the higher the numbers are and you should know that and play accordingly.
Also, highground-advantage does not need to be random, it can also be an Armor-Bonus or a DMG-reduction by a certain percentage.
But I totally agree with what some ppl here said: Blizzards argument that their new highground-mechanic is easy to understand doesn't make any sense at all:
- SC2 is supposed to be a competetive game, so why make it that easy? Do you really think ppl are that dumb that they don't realize that there is a highground-advantage in SCBW even after only playing like 10 games?
- Why do you think you can appeal to newer players by saying the game is much easier? That may be appealing to ppl that will only play single-player anyways on which stuff like that just doesn't have such a great impact as on the competetive scene. But those players won't give a flying fart about the engine of the game etc. they just see the brand "Blizzard" and flashy Units and go with the hype, which is already huge.
I really don't know what the true intentions behind stuff like highground-advantage, crappy Unit-control, hard-counter-system etc. is. For me, it kinda looks like Blizzard just realizes they won't be able to fix those problems and come up with shady explanations, which is entirely the wrong thing to do.
Personally, I'd rather wait another year for SC2 to come out, but at least it would be perfect, rather than the mess it is right now.
@LaSt)ChAnCe: Exactly, They gave ppl 100 reasons not to go out on the Map but none to actually do it - ridiculous. I mean: The whole thing about WC3 was to actually make ppl move out to kill creeps, get items etc. couldn't they come up with something to create what they've successfully done with SCBW and WC3? Atm. SC2 is the most turtle-oriented RTS I've ever played:
- Dawn of War 1&2: You have to capture the points all around the Map, so you're constantly moving around with several groups of Units. Also, it has a great cover-mechanic which allows you to hold key-positions on the Map.
- SCBW: Highground-advantage, Mines to clear out, less easy to harrass/timing-push, easier to not get all Units out on the Map killed etc.
- WC3: killing creeps, buying Items/neutral heroes etc.
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Came up with some new Ideas and I'd really appreciate your feedback!
The Ideas are in the OP btw.
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On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
This but amp the douchieness and you have the correct answer.
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On May 05 2010 21:03 DminusTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already. This but amp the douchieness and you have the correct answer.
This is just not enough...
1) Scout Towers, at least the way they are right now are mostly just being "occupied" by a single Unit.
2) Taking expansions is not what I'm talking about and so obvious it's ridiculous to even mention it IMHO... -.-°
Besides, there is even less incentive to take expansions in SC2, with small Maps, very strong timing-pushes and rushes or cheese, 2 gas-geyser's etc.
3) Proxying is no incentive to move out on the Map with your army as well, cuz you only need 1 worker to proxy.
---> Completely missed the point besides being unmanndered. -.-°
Fact is, that in SC1, the amount of Attacking-Units that are moving around on the Map is so much higher than in SC2, because there are much less incentives to do so in SC2 but several drawbacks that completely outweigh the rewards of moving out with your army or a part of it to do whatever it is you want to do with them.
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On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
You could secure an advantageous position on the Map to partially contain the enemy and/or control key-positions on the Map.
As long as you are in a TvT this works. In all other matchups there are very easy methods to circumvent a "hard to attack choke" with Nydus worms, cliff walking Colossi or warped-in units. These two features are nice ideas, but they are just like a flying or teleportation spell in a roleplaying game: they let you circumvent the dangers of the road or in a fight.
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On May 04 2010 16:11 PH wrote:
There's plenty of incentive to move out of your base and onto the map. Having map control is very important.
If not the most important lol
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On May 05 2010 23:28 cloudJR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:11 PH wrote:
There's plenty of incentive to move out of your base and onto the map. Having map control is very important. If not the most important lol
Do you even think before you post?
Why do you think moving out on the Map with several Units serves any purpose in SC2 other than to attack the opponent?
Why would you move out with your attack-force or a part of it and therefore have less defense in your base other than to simply attack the enemy base?
Again, I'm not talking about getting up an additional Expansion, which is the same turtelling style we see atm, just with one more base...
I can't think of one reason why you should move out on the Map and position your army somewhere, but I can think of a whole lot why you shouldnt:
1) High mobility of every race makes counterattacks very dangerous.
2) Small maps with backdoors favour cheese and timing-attacks, which could come at any time of the game, especially if the enemy sees that your whole army is outside of your base.
3) Xel-Naga-Tower can be occupied by 1 Unit, each more Unit is basically a waste.
4) The lousy highground-advantage you get in SC2 is to easy negated to take the risk of leaving your base.
5) Warp-in's, Nydus-worms, cliff-jumping Units, extremely fast Speedlings etc. will just rip your less defended base apart.
6) If you move out with only a part of your Units and the opponent is attacking you, your Army will be split and because it's nearly impossible to retreat without suffering heavy Damage (Marauders, Force-Fields, Speedling-Surround, Fungal Growth etc.) it's GG most of the times.
7) Containing the opponent is much harder because of the overall high mobility of Units, Mapstructure, lack of positional boni etc.
This may not be true for every MU and for every race, but it's the overall theme of the game atm.
But really - give me 1 reason to move out on the Map just to what you call "control" the Map. It's not really "controlling" the Map IMHO, if the enemy could wipe out your forces on the Map with one clean attack and then kill your base, is it? Mapcontrol can only be achieved when moving out on the Map is rewarded with a certain bonus to your army-strength, otherwise you'd better call it "risking your Units on the Map", because it does make absolutely no sense to let your base be less defended... -.-°
Don't just use buzzwords you don't know what they actually mean.
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@The6357: Again, I don't mean "move out to attack" or "move out to expand" but "move out to position yourself somewhere on the map". I really think ppl should read the posts before they spam it with their 4-word-sentences...
On May 05 2010 23:28 cloudJR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:11 PH wrote:
There's plenty of incentive to move out of your base and onto the map. Having map control is very important. If not the most important lol
Do you even think before you post?
Why do you think moving out on the Map with several Units serves any purpose in SC2 other than to attack the opponent?
Why would you move out with your attack-force or a part of it and therefore have less defense in your base other than to simply attack the enemy base?
Again, I'm not talking about getting up an additional Expansion, which is the same turtelling style we see atm, just with one more base...
I can't think of one reason why you should move out on the Map and position your army somewhere, but I can think of a whole lot why you shouldnt:
1) High mobility of every race makes counterattacks very dangerous.
2) Small maps with backdoors favour cheese and timing-attacks, which could come at any time of the game, especially if the enemy sees that your whole army is outside of your base.
3) Xel-Naga-Tower can be occupied by 1 Unit, each more Unit is basically a waste.
4) The lousy highground-advantage you get in SC2 is to easy negated to take the risk of leaving your base.
5) Warp-in's, Nydus-worms, cliff-jumping Units, extremely fast Speedlings etc. will just rip your less defended base apart.
6) If you move out with only a part of your Units and the opponent is attacking you, your Army will be split and because it's nearly impossible to retreat without suffering heavy Damage (Marauders, Force-Fields, Speedling-Surround, Fungal Growth etc.) it's GG most of the times.
7) Containing the opponent is much harder because of the overall high mobility of Units, Mapstructure, lack of positional boni etc.
This may not be true for every MU and for every race, but it's the overall theme of the game atm.
But really - give me 1 reason to move out on the Map just to what you call "control" the Map. It's not really "controlling" the Map IMHO, if the enemy could wipe out your forces on the Map with one clean attack and then kill your base, is it? Mapcontrol can only be achieved when moving out on the Map is rewarded with a certain bonus to your army-strength, otherwise you'd better call it "risking your Units on the Map", because it does make absolutely no sense to let your base be less defended... -.-°
Don't just use buzzwords you don't know what they actually mean.
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personally i make units in my natural then i attack and win or lose
thats simply how the game works for me atm... not so fun xd
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On May 06 2010 01:58 MorroW wrote:
personally i make units in my natural then i attack and win or lose
thats simply how the game works for me atm... not so fun xd
Why should you do anything else if the game does not reward you for it?
Exactly what I'm thinking about SC2 atm.
I was loling so hard when Rotterdam played in Zotac-cup (I believe it was Zotac) and both players turtelled in base until one player attacked and won and wrote something like: "SC2 is so boring, you just turtle and attack..."
It's exactly what SC2 is atm.
I'm even exaggerating: it's truly the worst RTS I've ever played in this aspect. xD
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I really don't agree with OP, moving out is really important unless your build favors staying defensive. For example, whenever I play against Zerg I move my army around the map with an observer, sniping creep tumors and checking for expansions. You really don't want that creep to expand too much. It's also easy to contain the enemy if you are active on the map, letting you expand.
Having the Xel'Naga watch towers is also key since you can spot incoming drops and when the enemy moves out. Like you say, most people turtle until they feel confident enough to move out, since I will have the Xel'Naga watch towers, I will see him attacking and know how to react to it, giving me a big advantage.
Having your army out on the map doesn't mean you aren't defending, you are defending, scouting and containing at the same time. With good map control, your opponent won't be able to drop your base, use nydus worms or reapers to harass your base since you will see it and hopefully react properly to it.
But sure, you can just skip all that and sit in your base macroing while your enemy gathers all the information he needs about you and knows when he can expand, what units he will need and how he can put pressure on you, keeping you contained. 
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8748 Posts
On May 06 2010 02:04 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 01:58 MorroW wrote:
personally i make units in my natural then i attack and win or lose
thats simply how the game works for me atm... not so fun xd Why should you do anything else if the game does not reward you for it?
It's not the game's fault at the moment -- it's the players'. As people get good enough to competently harass while watching over their main army and their base, harass will pay off more. The units and abilities are there. People just aren't trying or they're trying and failing.
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On May 06 2010 02:29 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 02:04 kickinhead wrote:On May 06 2010 01:58 MorroW wrote:
personally i make units in my natural then i attack and win or lose
thats simply how the game works for me atm... not so fun xd Why should you do anything else if the game does not reward you for it? It's not the game's fault at the moment -- it's the players'. As people get good enough to competently harass while watching over their main army and their base, harass will pay off more. The units and abilities are there. People just aren't trying or they're trying and failing.
Harrassing is one thing, but I would count that to "moving out to attack", with moving out on the Map, I really just mean position yourself around the Map, so that there is "action" going on on other places than the 2 mains or expansions.
But It's easily understandable that getting out on the Map to intercept scouting probes, scout for expo's and stuff is useful IF you have the skill of knowing exactly when you have to retreat and without Maphack, I guess this would be too risky even if you are a very skilled player, at least in the near future.
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interesting point, although i believe the map makers are entirely at fault.
big 8 player maps are always the best, because you can stealth expand, therefore a player needs to scout around and move out to keep an eye on the opponent's economy...
the blizzard maps are novice maps. you can only expand about 2 times before all minerals are gone and this is also largely at fault for there being no late game in competitive play.
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On May 06 2010 02:56 hoovehand wrote:
interesting point, although i believe the map makers are entirely at fault.
Not really - Mapmakers can only work with what Blizzard gave them to work with, at least that's my understanding of Mapmaking.
I don't know whether Mapmakers will have the possibility to make any changes to this matter other by changing the Map-architecture, but will that be enough without highground-advantage, extremely high mobility of all the races and reatreating meaning loss atm in SC2?
I highly doubt it...
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Every single day about 20 threads like this pop up. Quite frankly I'm tired of seeing them - accept SC2 for the game it is or don't play, don't whine about it not being 'BW clone' or a game with a feature set that YOU want. Blizzard went with a certain style and they are sticking with it, and if that is unappealing to people I think they should just accept it and stop making threads about what they think needs changed. Its all personal opinion and hearsay.
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I think you can forget about mines ever coming back. The type of play they promoted was very unpopular with the average BW player, and even many TLers find Terran mine/tank wars to be boring. Blizzard wanted to make the game with more mobility, but I think the byproduct of that has been a game where its very dangerous to move out of your base if you aren't directly attacking.
The only thing I think thats truly needed is a return to the BW high ground mechanic. It makes sense, it gives an actual advantage to a high ground position. Right now cliffs are very strong for drops, but ramp high ground is basically the same as flat ground. One flying unit completely eliminates high ground advantage, which is silly.
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On May 06 2010 03:44 SichuanPanda wrote:
Every single day about 20 threads like this pop up. Quite frankly I'm tired of seeing them - accept SC2 for the game it is or don't play, don't whine about it not being 'BW clone' or a game with a feature set that YOU want. Blizzard went with a certain style and they are sticking with it, and if that is unappealing to people I think they should just accept it and stop making threads about what they think needs changed. Its all personal opinion and hearsay.
Oh okay, I may have been mislead by the assumption a Beta-test's whole purpose is actually improving the game.
trolls like you really shouldn't be allowed to post anything... -.-°
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On May 06 2010 03:54 PanzerDragoon wrote:One flying unit completely eliminates high ground advantage, which is silly.
Well strategically this would mean if you killed that one flying unit you would have a massive advantage, which I've seen. Terran reveals the observer with scanner and kills it which gives the player an invincible army until he gets vision again. This micro mechanic is fine imo, and its getting more interesting once people get used to it. High ground usually gives a positioning advantage also.
I don't think high ground advantage is the problem. If it was changed to the way it was in BW, giving defender's MORE of an advantage, it would provide even less incentive for players to stop turtling. I suppose there could be other spots on the map with high ground and good visibility, but I don't think miss chance is any more fun than lack of vision and changing it wouldnt be enough to get players to move out any more than they do already.
There needs to be spots on the map that are crucial to lock down and control, forcing early and constant conflict. Health/Energy/Shield fountain/tower? High yield vespene geysers? Gold expo in the middle on high ground? 10% damage/damage reduction Xel'Naga tower near a base/expo? Mercenary camp in the middle with interesting, useful units? I don't know what they should add, but they should definitely add something thats worth fighting the opponent for.
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On May 04 2010 17:02 hacpee wrote:
you can get a big portion of your army chopped up retreating.
I would say this is the single biggest reason for this in sc2 compared to sc1. In SC1 you'd lose a few units due to bad AI, but that was about it. Now, you really can't retreat without losing huge chunks (and thereby losing the game, anyway); it really penalizes moving your army around. I miss the troop moment you used to see in SC1 with armies constantly moving from one area to another.
There is just way too much shit in SC2 that renders you powerless, which really detracts from enjoyment. Imagine how frustrating it would be to play SC1 if e.g. maelstrom or ensnare were on units that you already used, so that every game you dealt with slowed or immobilized units. That's where we are in SC2.
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On May 05 2010 18:00 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
as far as expoing goes, it can be delayed a lot longer in most cases due to having two gas at each spawn... expanding isn't immediately necessary if you can get twice is much gas
You still get 5000 gas @ 8 gas per return even if you have both geysers; they're split up into 4/cargo each now, with 2500 total. And they dont work at all after being depleted. Expoing is delayed a lot longer because it's more dangerous to expo with the threat of terrible terrible damage.
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I agree with you the map pool is very limited, but the fact of the matter is blizzard is just going to be lazy on purpose. The reason why is they pretty much are giving the players the tools, aka the map editor to make better maps. The down side of this is they are going to charge a premium price for these player created new maps that are created in the community, which blows pretty hard.
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On May 06 2010 05:02 RodKarew wrote:
I agree with you the map pool is very limited, but the fact of the matter is blizzard is just going to be lazy on purpose. The reason why is they pretty much are giving the players the tools, aka the map editor to make better maps. The down side of this is they are going to charge a premium price for these player created new maps that are created in the community, which blows pretty hard.
I don't really know what the Map-Editor is capable of, but will it be possible to implement any of my changes suggested in the first post other than the one about "Map-Architecture" and "More Xel-Naga Towers..."?
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Another Idea:
Why not make IMBA-skills that kill movement around the Map like concussive shells, Force-Fields and Fungal Growth worse?
Those skills are too good anyways and at least concussive shells and Force-Field dominate movement around the Map way too soon and much too strong.
I wouldn't mind if they removed concussive shells and force-fields completely, especially concussive shells and I say that even though I play Terran myself! ^^'
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I think the problem lies in a combination of unit design and the lack of a high-ground advantage.
Certain units are designed to be just as effective while on the move as they are when they are holding ground. I mean, virtually every match-up is played similarly and that's due to how every army composition is so identical in terms of how they move. Also, the fact that these "certain units" have so much attacking power and health doesn't help at all. I think this is to help newer players out and make the game much simpler, but that's a pretty huge hit to the competitive scene.
What needs to occur is a complete revamp of how units work, but I don't see that happening in the near future. Funny how it's still in beta and I still get this feeling -.-
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Hmm just curious, couldn't i calm myself down with the solace of a TL-made Promod?
I mean in the worst case scenario Blizzard will totally screw up and top players will discover SC2 to be plain crappy within the next 3 months or so. We can then still wait for a serious promod with a useful high-ground-mechanic and some nice unitchanges and the return of something along the lines of a lurker and mines and actual micro, can we? Can we??
Pls say we can >.< (btw i know splitting the community sucks, but if vanilla sc2 sucks even harder then i know waht i will prefer)
SB
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I think that the reason why you don't see alot of people moving out of there base unless they plan to attack or expand is because the map pool is pretty limited and most map are either too small or too big. When it only takes 15-20 sec to reach your opponents natural, there is no insentive to take possition in the middle when you could just chill by your choke where your re-enforcement are closer. Otherwise, maps like desert oasis makes it very dangerous to venture out far in fear of counter attacks. There's a 50-50 chance your opponent will end up taking the other route and it just turns into an elimination race. All you need is 2-3 cheap unit in the middle to scout expos and towers.
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On May 10 2010 08:42 mcgavin wrote:
I think that the reason why you don't see alot of people moving out of there base unless they plan to attack or expand is because the map pool is pretty limited and most map are either too small or too big. When it only takes 15-20 sec to reach your opponents natural, there is no insentive to take possition in the middle when you could just chill by your choke where your re-enforcement are closer. Otherwise, maps like desert oasis makes it very dangerous to venture out far in fear of counter attacks. There's a 50-50 chance your opponent will end up taking the other route and it just turns into an elimination race. All you need is 2-3 cheap unit in the middle to scout expos and towers.
I don't think any map is too big and DO is o dangerous to move out cuz of the 2 different paths...
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The problem right now is that players arent familiar enough with the races and units to truly be able to tell what they can get a way with when it comes to expanding. Expanding was the main reason to leave your base in broodwar, and it no doubt will be in SC2 as well. Once players learn what unit comps and timings allow them to drop an expo down, then we will start to see more movement.
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against zerg i move out asap, the last thing i want to do is move out and see half the map full of his creep **** and his units are running circles around me. I hate the creep and even when I'm zerg and I spread tumors like rats spread disease I feel like I'm cheating somehow.
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lol believe it or not, I have the most trouble against a P that sits tight in base and gets out 5-6 collusus then pushes out. It's quite gg
Or a T that pushes out with 4-5 Thors with mass Helions.
Mind you, this can be done quite quickly so that the advantage of having extra bases hasn't kicked in yet.
lol maybe i'm just noob but yea =S
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On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
strong douchebaggery here
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On May 10 2010 14:34 StayFrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already. strong douchebaggery here
...Because he is right?
Honestly, those are three legit reasons.
And its not like there wasn't turtling in scbw D:
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Im not super pro, not by a long shot, but i do find it easier to do a 1 basing turtle strategy than any other. With Terran I just scan to make sure they aren't expanding, so i don't have to move out. With Protoss I just make an obs and patrol with it, and I don't really play Zerg much. If im moving out, I send 1 or 2 guys to the watch towers, and make sure there isn't anything coming and THEN i move out. I dont need to constantly move around.
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On May 10 2010 14:37 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 14:34 StayFrosty wrote:On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already. strong douchebaggery here ...Because he is right? Honestly, those are three legit reasons. And its not like there wasn't turtling in scbw D:
And it's not like you understand the topic at all....
Plz ppl - read the post's before you start writing stuff we've discussed 10x before in this thread.
It's not about expanding or getting single Units out on the Map, it's about constant movement and holding positions on the Map without necessarily attacking or expanding.
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I agree. units like the colossus, reaper, nydus, burrowed moving, medics that are also dropships, transformers (these are ok though, because they aren't that strong), etc. and bad map design force you to stay in your base, making it kind of boring to play and really boring to watch.
giving the player some real good incentives would really counteract this. watchtowers could be made more interesting (like only revealing the map in one direction, but farther.). High ground advantage HAS to come back. it is just so extremely sad, that all maps are basically flat with some minor obstacles. (high ground is either an extreme advantage or no advantage at all...) they improved the design possibilities with rocks, grass, watchtowers and yellow minerals, but just took away the most important thing in mapdesign: high ground.
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EPT
