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Hi@all.
One thing that is kinda missing in SC2 is a good reason for your Units to move out on the Map and not only camp in your base until your ready to attack. With much greater mobilitiy of all the races, it's even harder to move out on the Map, because you're taking quite a risk by doing so. All the more reason that the game rewards you for taking that risk, which SC2 simply doesn't do atm.
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: You could secure an advantageous position on the Map to partially contain the enemy and/or control key-positions on the Map. With no real highground-advantage and Blizzard saying their happy with that, my Idea was just to look at other possible incentives to move out on the Map, because I just think it's boring when the players are best served just turtelling in their bases and only moving out to attack or secure an additional expansion.
Terrain with some sort of DMG-Reduction/Armor-Bonus/Miss-Percentage for the Enemy:
This is basically a staple in so many RTS-Games and could be easily implemented in SC2. Instead of the Highground giving you some sort of defensive Bonus, why not create a Terrain, like high grass or sth, that would serve that purpose? One thing Blizzard likes about their highground-system in SC2 is, that it's so clear and easy to understand - either you see, or you don't see; nothing random and the Bonus is very clear. With different Terrains clearly indicating that it's in some way harder to shoot at the enemy within and maybe a not randomized system (+Armor or DMG-Reduction by a certain percentage) this system would be fairly easy to understand IMHO.
Mines:
One major reason to move out on the Map in all the MU's involving Vultures has been clearing out Mines, so besides Mines being awesome, they'd even make the game much more interesting to play and watch!
Map-Architecture:
The Mappool is just so biased towards rush-based strategies, with backdoor-rocks you can destroy, overall kinda small Maps etc.
With bigger Maps with some positions that will be advantageous for you to hold, you could give the players a reason to move out on the Map. I'm thinking about small bridges like on Destination where you could contain the enemy without totally commiting to an attack, highground in front of the enemy's base that would at least give you the small highground-advantage SC2 has atm in the early-game and just Maps that are less favouring rushes and cheesey play.
More Xel-Naga-Towers on harder to reach Locations:
- I'm thinking about Locations that are maybe easy to get to from one players base and therefore easy to defend, but for the opposing player to get to them, he'd have to maybe destroy rocks and therefore need to move an Army there. Like a far out reaching small highground-patch you can access from your main/nat with a tower that gives you a lot of vision, but with another entrance that is easier to access for the enemy but blocked by rocks.
- Another possibility could be More Xel-Naga-Towers on small highground-areas, so you have to fly your Unit up there with a dropship or sth. or get sth up there that can jump over cliffs. Maybe also with rocks blocking a ramp so you can also kill the scouting Unit by moving an Army there and kicking the rock.
Neutral Static-defense on Key-positions:
Maybe some kind of neutral Bunkers or Cannons you gain control over when standing there with your Units.
Ressource-Generators powered by the number of Units standing there:
Some sort of a Position you have to hold with your Units that will produce a certain amount of ressources for you without having to build a structure and/or sending workers there. Just depending on how large the food-count of your Army standing next to it is with enemy Units being distracted from your food-count when they stand near it.
Any1 have some other intersting Idea's?
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Well, as a zerg player, a good reason for me to move my units out is to maintain map control and deny expansions. Maybe its different if your playing terran, but as zerg you are always running your lings around scouting and what not.
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How about high ground advantage so winning isn't always whoever has the biggest army? Also better maps will always be nice. Like you said I have trouble pushing out when people can raid me so easily so I just sit tight on my natural and really theres not much reason to move out.
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what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
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Woah, easy there dude. You don't need to be so condescending.
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Scouting, Watch Towers, Gold Expands, Harrassment, Expo Denial, and General Map Control are all perfectly fine reasons to move out from your natural.
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On May 04 2010 16:02 jtype wrote:
Woah, easy there dude. You don't need to be so condescending.
It's ok he's blind
lol jk.
On topic, well I do think there's more reason for Zerg to move out in order to expand their creep and such, but there's a big difference between terrans and protoss in sc1 and sc2 the tension between spider mines and map control was a big reason for moving out in sc1
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There's plenty of incentive to move out of your base and onto the map. Having map control is very important.
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I agree with this one. Unless you're ready to make a move on your opponent's base, it doesn't make sense to move out on the map.
And as clear cut as the high ground advantage seems, it never seems to play out well in the game, whether it's melee units or medivacs, the advantage is lost extremely quickly.
Also map control is never controlling key points with the advantage they give you, map control is kept by having a bigger army than your opponent and sitting at the exit of the natural or the bottom of the ramp with it. (or air units but that's not what we're talking about)
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On May 04 2010 16:00 imBLIND wrote:
what about scout towers?
what about mineral patches that give more money?
what about having buildable terrain on the map so people can proxy?
how about winning the game? i don't think thats a reason to move out yet is it?
You might wanna play more games if you haven't already.
1) Scout towers are maybe important to hold with your army in certain MU's (TvT for example), but mostly, you just send 1 Unit there and that's about it.
2) Additional Expansion are something I've named in the Post, but expanding just isn't enough, because it's still better to just Mass up and do a timing-attack in most MU's. Besides, it's not really better if you're turtelling on three bases than on 2 - it's just boring!
3) Not everyone is depending on cheesey strats like proxying to win. ^^'
Btw. I've played nearly 800 Games and am high Platin right now and athough a good fainboy'ism
is not that bad, it's not always best to be all defensive when someone tries to give constructive
criticism...
@lightning2k3 :
I think Zerg is a bit different from the other Races concerning moving out on the Map, just because they are so fast. It's really easy to gain Mapcontrol with Zerg at certain stages of the Game and it's always good to have some Speedlings out on the Map to surround enemy Units, counterattack or stuff like that.
In addition to that, So many Units have the ability to totally "trap" your Units, like Speedling-Surrounds, Marauders that pin your army down, Force-fields that keep you from retreating, Fungal Growth and so on, that it's nearly impossible to move out on the Map if you're not ready to engage your enemy in a straight-up-battle.
But if you imagine a slow-moving Terran Army with Tanks, Thors etc. or a standard-protoss army - what's the incentive here to move out? It's so easy to get surrounded by Speedlings, Counterattacked etc. and there is no real advantage in moving out, so it's easy to understand no Terran/Protoss-players really does it.
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@williowa
thats not true at all. Even if he has a bigger army, if i can scout that he is pushing out and i backstab with lings, hes forced to pull back and defend, or lose his base. Things like that are only possible if you have map control and good scouting info.
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On May 04 2010 16:30 lightning2k3 wrote:
@williowa
thats not true at all. Even if he has a bigger army, if i can scout that he is pushing out and i backstab with lings, hes forced to pull back and defend, or lose his base. Things like that are only possible if you have map control and good scouting info.
And that's exactly why T/P doesn't like to go out on the Map against Zerg, or even the other races for that matter. ^^'
But as said above, Zerg are a bit differrent concerning this Issue than the other races. I guess with a fast army, creep-tumors, the need to have more expansions than other races etc. Zerg has a good amount of incentives to move out on the Map, but more couldn't hurt I guess...
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I think its absolutely essential for zerg to have forces around the map. Speedling flanking does incredible damage against all three races, and is the only way to counter forcefield (using ground units).
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On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage:
right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground.
T_T
high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate.
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On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate.
Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent
who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into
a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol.
Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive,
Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage.
Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?...
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On May 04 2010 16:15 Williowa wrote:
I agree with this one. Unless you're ready to make a move on your opponent's base, it doesn't make sense to move out on the map.
And as clear cut as the high ground advantage seems, it never seems to play out well in the game, whether it's melee units or medivacs, the advantage is lost extremely quickly.
Also map control is never controlling key points with the advantage they give you, map control is kept by having a bigger army than your opponent and sitting at the exit of the natural or the bottom of the ramp with it. (or air units but that's not what we're talking about)
lol, no 
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Moving out is pretty much pointless because of
1) Marauders
2) Force Field
If you end up meeting a bigger army, you can get a big portion of your army chopped up retreating.
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On May 04 2010 16:48 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate. Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol. Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive, Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage. Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?...
well if that's what you meant then why didnt you say so. no need to hide your ideas and bait people.
who's whining? your point seems strange. players move out on the map already in order to take key watch towers and expand and creep. good players know this and do it already. players at low platinum and below merely turtle in base because they cant handle the multitasking of moving their army and macroing (which is minimal, especially in this game)
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The thing is, hiding in your base and macroing can be just effective as moving around the map and macroing with the benefit of increased security around the base. If you want to see map control in action, watch more SCBW TvT. It's basically a fight that revolves around map control.
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On May 04 2010 17:09 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 16:48 kickinhead wrote:On May 04 2010 16:41 mOnion wrote:On May 04 2010 15:47 kickinhead wrote:
One big incentive to move out on the Map in SCBW was the highground-advantage: right. cuz whenever I decided to push out on python, medusa, desti, fighting spirit, gods garden, outsider, athena, othello, andromeda, colloseum, I was always like SWEET now I have the high ground. T_T high ground advantage and positioning is the reason you stay home in BW, not push out. your rant is well meaning but misguided and inaccurate. Your Logic is flawed, because if you move out on the Map and get pwned by the opponent who has moved out and secured a good position, the enemy has already moved out and got into a good position, which clearly gave him an advantage. And If you talk about moving out to attack to enemy, you've missed the point - I'm talking about moving out with a hand full of Units or even your whole army, but not to attack the enemy, but just to secure a good position and gain Mapcontrol. Think about Maps like Blue Storm, Heartbreak ridge, Katrina, Longinus, Matchpoint, Moonglaive, Sin Chupun Ryeong etc. where it was just a big advantage to hold the highground between you and your enemy to control the Map while having a positional advantage. Besides, it's not just about highground and of course it doesn't apply to every situation of the game, but I guess you won't argue with me that SC2 needs something to motivate players to move out on the Map more. So instead of whining and undermining my arguments, a constructive Idea would be the better way to go?... well if that's what you meant then why didnt you say so. no need to hide your ideas and bait people. who's whining? your point seems strange. players move out on the map already in order to take key watch towers and expand and creep. good players know this and do it already. players at low platinum and below merely turtle in base because they cant handle the multitasking of moving their army and macroing (which is minimal, especially in this game)
Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough, but I surely had no intention of hiding my intentions and baiting ppl.
To be totally clear: with moving out on the Map I mean stuff like that in SCBW:
1) Slight Containments with a few Dragoons, Lurkers, Tanks etc.
2) getting a few Dragoons out on the Map to kill Mines and snipe scouting Workers, incoming Dropships/Overlords/Shuttles etc.
3) Positioning Units to Counterattack.
4) Getting up a Tankline/Lurkers/Dragoons on a highground between your and your opponents base.
5) Moving out with a small "Guerilla-Force" to test out the opponents defenses while not fully commiting to an attack.
Now for the reasons why I think those Tactics aren't that viable or even possible in SC2:
1) First of all, the Map-Architecture often features way's to move out of your base other than through just one entrance, which makes a containment basically uneffective (distructable rocks on BS, Kulas, Incineration Zone, Steppes of War or DO with 2 ways to go out on the Map from your Natural).
Other Maps are just too open at your Natural, like Metalopolis. In addition to that, there is the much higher mobility of the races that don't depend on "just walking over the Map", like Warp-In's, Nydus-Worms, Dropships/Shuttles/Overlords, Moving while burrowed, hopping over cliffs, Flying Units etc.
2) Of course, you can't get out on the Map to kill mines because there are no Mines in SC2. Also, it's just so hard to move out with little Groups of Units, because if you encounter the main-Army of your opponent, it's very hard to retreat without suffering "terrible, terrible Damage" - Marauders pin your whole Army down, Speedlings surround you in no time, Force-Fields cut off your escape-route or Fungal Growth pwns you etc.
3) For certain Races/Unitcombinations, this is still a viable strat, but for others, you suffer the same problems as the ones mentioned above.
4) While on some Maps it's still good to secure certain positions (like on Kulas, where I often position my Army at one of the Towers or on Metalopolis, where I position myself at the highground out of the enemys base), on most maps, there is just not any highground at good positions between you and your enemys base, additionally, there is no real highground-advantage anyways.
5) Same Problem as described in "2)" and "3)"...
And for players moving out in SC2:
Of course there are Situations where it's good to do that and very good players know the timings where they can safely move out to try to contain the enemy, scout for expansions and snipe them, kick some creep-tumors or other stuff, but I think that is more the exception than the rule, because even in Zotac-Finals and other tournaments, you basically always see Protoss/T only moving out when they do their timing-attack or when they do more or less cheesey stuff with drops/reaper-harrass...
But I'd really like ppl to think of this thread as something Blizzard might actually read and consider the Ideas gathered here, I'll even write the ones I consider as good in the OP, of course while mentioning the person that came up with it, so plz post Ideas here and don't get lost in descussing misunderstandings or hypothesizing about intentions etc.
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EPT
