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Comparing a D/D- SC1 player to SC2 ranks doesn't mean anything.
A HUGE reason why good sc1 players were so good is because there are so many stupid game bugs and build complexities that take a long time to learn without help. Things like building a proper wall off for each spawn on each map etc are extremely important in SC1 and things that even avid SC fans didn't fully understand.
Platinum should definitely be harder to get into though. You probably shouldn't be able to get into platinum with just placement games. Make people work there way up from silver. Rank them up quick to gold if they are dominating and make platinum a pretty difficult league to make.
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Platinum should probably be impossible to get into simply from doing your placement matches. I know for a fact I should not be in platinum(or whatever qualifies as the highest placement one can enter into) just because my placement opponents were terrible*.
*The best of them went three gate offense...and by three gate, I mean three gateways. Despite his having researched warp gate tech, he decided never to upgrade.
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On April 30 2010 09:59 Bosu wrote:
Comparing a D/D- SC1 player to SC2 ranks doesn't mean anything.
A HUGE reason why good sc1 players were so good is because there are so many stupid game bugs and build complexities that take a long time to learn without help. Things like building a proper wall off for each spawn on each map etc are extremely important in SC1 and things that even avid SC fans didn't fully understand.
So, advanced techniques and builds that raised the skill ceiling is a bad thing?
I think a lot of people won't see what's happening to SC2 before it's too late. Everyone is happy about the great graphics and units, and drool over the fact that Blizzard successfully recreated some of the units we love into beautiful 3D graphics. What's actually going on is a regression in RTS video games that is completely unnecessary.
"Kiting" with 30 marauders is equivalent to controlling two zerglings in SC1.
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On April 30 2010 09:52 Perfect Balance wrote:
You're missing the POINT.. Everyone is discussing the errors in the system, allowing worse players to reach top 20% on the ladder.
What about the obvious fact that SC2 requires less skill, and noobs who figure out some easy-to-manage build can easy win over a great D+ to -B gamer who's not building the exact right counter units that game. The reason many noobs are reaching platinum level is because every once in a while they beat a great player who didn't build the right units, by A-moving into him with a marauder/roach/immortal ball.
You can't save yourself with great micro after you've made an error in your build in SC2, like you could in SC1. SC2 is all about builds, and that's something even an AOE player can manage to pull off every once in a while.
yea I definitely agree with this sc2 is just more about a build and attack move and macro as best you can. i mean grante of course theres levels of it but its no where near what bw was like and i wass it alot 
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It should definitely be harder to get into platinum because I am D+ in bw and after 10 games of experience I got into plat due to the reset
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On April 30 2010 09:52 Perfect Balance wrote:
You're missing the POINT.. Everyone is discussing the errors in the system, allowing worse players to reach top 20% on the ladder.
What about the obvious fact that SC2 requires less skill, and noobs who figure out some easy-to-manage build can easy win over a great D+ to -B gamer who's not building the exact right counter units that game. The reason many noobs are reaching platinum level is because every once in a while they beat a great player who didn't build the right units, by A-moving into him with a marauder/roach/immortal ball.
You can't save yourself with great micro after you've made an error in your build in SC2, like you could in SC1. SC2 is all about builds, and that's something even an AOE player can manage to pull off every once in a while.
I think a better explanation to what you're noticing is that counters are now numerical and no longer mechanical. Instead of using the right unit to have a MICRO advantage, its now more towards using the right unit.....period. Micro is important, but arguably much less important since the damage system is such a big rock paper scissors clusterfck. Who cares if you can micro away from a shot if getting hit means 200000 bonus damage?
"Terrible, terrible damage."
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Either more ranks need to be added or MorroW's idea needs to be taken in to consideration in my opinion. There really is quite a difference in skill between different platinum players.
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I guess with 12 pages it has already been said and I cba to read every single reply but one must consider especially if you come from broodwar that the skill level on iccup was not a good example of skill distribution in a competitive game.
You have to realize that in broodwar right now, everyone who has not had the energy to play the game intensively for many years have left, and any new player trying to learn it is discouraged by the insane skill level there. It would be like removing all the copper-gold players from sc2 at the moment and then divide the platinum players only over the five ranks with the worst platinum player being copper. Then you would start to get closer to the kind of average level that broodwar has at the moment.
Obviously this is going to change though as players get better and better. I do agree though that platinum should not be attainable through placement. I actually don't think gold should be attainable through placement either.
ALSO consider though that the leagues are not meant to be a substitute for ladder rating. There is supposed to be a skill difference within the leagues thats why there are 100 places in most divisions and people will range from 700 rating to 2000. If you make the leagues too narrow then it gets too frustrating to adjust to a new league because likely you will get promoted and then loose a few games and be demoted right back down again. It is actually necessary for #100 platinum players to be around the skill level of #1 gold players otherwise the advancement curve gets choppy.
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just use your ELO to measure your skill against others...not to the fact you are in plat...
obtaining high ELO seems to be very hard as you gain less pts for winning and lose a lot of pts when you lose :/
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On April 30 2010 10:13 The6357 wrote:
just use your ELO to measure your skill against others...not to the fact you are in plat...
obtaining high ELO seems to be very hard as you gain less pts for winning and lose a lot of pts when you lose :/
Except its not ELO
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It will even out eventually. There are only a small amount of people in the beta, so when the game actually comes out there will be a lot more people in the game. The population will blow up to such an amount that it will be very difficult to stay in the league you are originally placed in. Placement matches will then have more value. Because if you have noticed in this game placement matches go from copper, bronze, silver, gold, and platinum. People may win in copper, they go to the next, but lose to bronze then play another bronze until you win and get to silver or you lose and play another copper until you get in the top 10. It is also based on other smaller stats, but if you notice that's how placement matches go. Leagues will get so hard that people new to the game will be in copper easily. So
Also that is how the placement matches find your league, I've tested 3 times for all my placement matches when the server has been reset and so far it has gone copper, bronze, silver, gold, platinum. Once you lose you have to win the next and that's the league you will be placed in. So I believe it will balance out.
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On April 30 2010 10:04 Perfect Balance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 09:59 Bosu wrote:
Comparing a D/D- SC1 player to SC2 ranks doesn't mean anything.
A HUGE reason why good sc1 players were so good is because there are so many stupid game bugs and build complexities that take a long time to learn without help. Things like building a proper wall off for each spawn on each map etc are extremely important in SC1 and things that even avid SC fans didn't fully understand. So, advanced techniques and builds that raised the skill ceiling is a bad thing? I think a lot of people won't see what's happening to SC2 before it's too late. Everyone is happy about the great graphics and units, and drool over the fact that Blizzard successfully recreated some of the units we love into beautiful 3D graphics. What's actually going on is a regression in RTS video games that is completely unnecessary. "Kiting" with 30 marauders is equivalent to controlling two zerglings in SC1.
I didn't say anything about the high skill ceiling being bad. It just is a lot more difficult to learn the game when a ton of the things such as patrol micro, making dragoons not retarded, and building placement are extremely difficult to learn. Most people, such as myself, didn't dedicate time to learning SC1 because learning these things is extremely tedious.
In SC2 we are all starting at the same point. There is nobody with 5-10 years of time learning these bugs and nuances long before we started.
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The higher numbered platinum divisions are so easy. A D- player in SC1 is fully capable of getting into them. I got my beta key two days ago and went 10-0 in 1v1 and 2v2 placement matches with zero experience, and got placed in platinum in division 86 or something ridiculous like that. The people I'm playing are just bad.
They just need a division above plat, or only place people in gold if they go 5-0, then let them fight their way into plat.
Edit: Main problem is probably that the ladder should be a pyramid shape (way more copper divisions than platinum). That way it would automatically be tough to get there.
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i barely played sc:bw or wc3 and ive only played maybe 100-200 sc2 beta games total, but im a rank 1 platinum player. there's something wrong about that.
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news flash, 99% of people in sc2 suck
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On April 30 2010 02:06 HelloSon wrote:
They should have a league above plat that you DON'T get placed in; you have to earn the right to get in. That way people can't just be placed in this league with a bunch of easy placement matches.
Blizz will be introducing this after launch afaik; a pro-invite league.
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That's not really a news flash.
And personally, I agree with Morrow's idea as well as just an additional higher league. Whichever proves to be better. The primary focus though is that the current "highest league" is far more common than it should be.
Though maybe the proleague will alleviate the issue, who knows.
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On April 30 2010 10:44 Fontong wrote:
The higher numbered platinum divisions are so easy. A D- player in SC1 is fully capable of getting into them. I got my beta key two days ago and went 10-0 in 1v1 and 2v2 placement matches with zero experience, and got placed in platinum in division 86 or something ridiculous like that. The people I'm playing are just bad.
They just need a division above plat, or only place people in gold if they go 5-0, then let them fight their way into plat.
Edit: Main problem is probably that the ladder should be a pyramid shape (way more copper divisions than platinum). That way it would automatically be tough to get there.
Adding another layer of the ladder is not going to pull better players out of a hat. I think most people are missing the point here. It is not a lot of "bad" players in platinum because the ladder system is broken, its because there are not enough "good" players yet in the beta. Again comparing to sc/bw ladders with people with 10+ years experience to people with 10 weeks experience is kind of futile.
I would suggest that someone screenshot this thread because in 10 years we are going to have a good laugh about how people thought platinum was easy back in the day.
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On April 30 2010 11:29 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 10:44 Fontong wrote:
The higher numbered platinum divisions are so easy. A D- player in SC1 is fully capable of getting into them. I got my beta key two days ago and went 10-0 in 1v1 and 2v2 placement matches with zero experience, and got placed in platinum in division 86 or something ridiculous like that. The people I'm playing are just bad.
They just need a division above plat, or only place people in gold if they go 5-0, then let them fight their way into plat.
Edit: Main problem is probably that the ladder should be a pyramid shape (way more copper divisions than platinum). That way it would automatically be tough to get there. Adding another layer of the ladder is not going to pull better players out of a hat. I think most people are missing the point here. It is not a lot of "bad" players in platinum because the ladder system is broken, its because there are not enough "good" players yet in the beta. Again comparing to sc/bw ladders with people with 10+ years experience to people with 10 weeks experience is kind of futile. I would suggest that someone screenshot this thread because in 10 years we are going to have a good laugh about how people thought platinum was easy back in the day.
And you missed the point of my edit.
I know there is a limited amount of good players. Why do you think I posted that the divisions should be in a pyramid? So that the betters players at the top are more concentrated because there are less platinum divisions, and thus the level of skill required to get in one will be far higher.
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Too many elitists here complaining. If you have a problem with platinum not being leet, then you should also have a problem with gold not being 2nd most leet. I thought the leagues would be an even distribution from the get go, and i don't care. Getting 1500 ranking is more important than getting a 1100 ranking.
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EPT
