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On May 07 2010 03:55 norwegianwood wrote:
What I find crazy about this whole debate is that we have a non-professional player arguing that he knows better than Blizzard, a company worth billions of dollars who have employees who are smarter and more knowledgeable about Starcraft:BW than he is.
What a pathetic argument. "Blizzard has billions of dollars, there for they know what's best".
So blizzard decides if I think a game is fun? Wow. Do they decided what food I like also, or what music I think is good?
On May 07 2010 03:55 norwegianwood wrote:
Blizzard consults pro-gamers about game design and even has pro-gamers on it's payroll for this sort of discussion.
The thread starter IS a pro gamer you idiot. And the Korean pro scene hasn't even noticed SC2. No one in Korea minus a few lower tier players are playing it despite surely all of them having beta keys.
On May 07 2010 03:55 norwegianwood wrote:
Do you really think that they didn't think about the micro in SC2 and unit control? Really? Really?
Of course they do, but it's being made by people who are business minded not gamer minded. Most of the people who made SC1 don't work for blizzard any more. Also there is the powerful argument that SC1 was a cosmic fluke. Most of micro tricks and strategies weren't discovered for years later.
On May 07 2010 03:55 norwegianwood wrote:
Trust me, you don't become as big as Blizzard without some smarts. The idea that they haven't thought about this micro issue already is a joke. After all, they made Brood-war, they have the source code, they have the huge dev team, pro team contacts, etc.
Just stop complaining please. If you don't like SC2, no one's forcing you to play it. Plenty of people still play BW.
There you have folks. "There's nothing to see here. Look away, go about your business, Blizzard is in control, go back to sleep and send us your three payments of $60 for an inferior game that we broke before we even went to beta". That is the D- newbie argument.
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Geez, now it just makes it look like LaLush is bullying blizzard after the unveiling of patch 11.
I like how the SPECIFICALLY gave the moving shot to phoenix.
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http://us.starcraft2.com/launcher/patch-notes.htm
Holly crap, they didn't get it at all !
The helion is buffed but the wrong way (it stay as boring as it was) and the phenix can shot while moving, which is actually very different from what we call moving shot here.
They are too focused one unit/damage/range instead of what is really missing, come dynamic in the game.
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Guess it all goes back to the fact that Blizzard just got real fucking lucky with StarCraft.
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On May 07 2010 05:40 deadalnix wrote:http://us.starcraft2.com/launcher/patch-notes.htmHolly crap, they didn't get it at all ! The helion is buffed but the wrong way (it stay as boring as it was) and the phenix can shot while moving, which is actually very different from what we call moving shot here. They are too focused one unit/damage/range instead of what is really missing, come dynamic in the game.
It isn't even the real moving shot :/ . It's just a unit that can naturally shoot while moving and pivot and fly backwards. There's no real action specific micro involved other than moving it around.
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Ok, I just saw a video demonstrating the new phoenix.
I think LaLush made blizzard cry with this thread.
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On May 07 2010 05:41 bokchoi wrote:
Guess it all goes back to the fact that Blizzard just got real fucking lucky with StarCraft.
Obviously because the micro was discovered after starcraft was made (obviously).
But when you are lucky when you do something, you try to figure out what you've done to reproduce it later.
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On May 07 2010 07:35 deadalnix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 05:41 bokchoi wrote:
Guess it all goes back to the fact that Blizzard just got real fucking lucky with StarCraft. Obviously because the micro was discovered after starcraft was made (obviously). But when you are lucky when you do something, you try to figure out what you've done to reproduce it later.
Define lucky though. Starcraft was an immense success long before it became an immensely successful e-sport. Blizzard as a company also produced other hugely successful franchises like warcraft RTS, WoW, and Diablo.
So, I don't consider them lucky.
People suggesting the balance was luck, no I think unit balance is inherently impossible in a game like this and Broodwar was not, itself, balanced. Korean pro-gramers discovered the very best and most efficient strategies, and then they made maps around how to control those specifically to be balanced enough.
Regardless of what Blizzard does in balancing, eventually with enough time, the obsessive pro-sports scene will know the very best methods and then maps will be made to balance them. If something new comes up to break balance, they'll adjust all the maps it has affected and then they'll have balance again.
I said this before, but maybe because the map editor is so expansive, this can even encompass unit changes in behavior and damage.
As a spectator who enjoys/enjoyed watching broodwar matches from top level players, I do think the super-micro that could be ultimately devastating and match deciding is required in my opinion for it to remain as exciting. I don't think any other e-sport has ever had it. I hope SC2 manages to find a way.
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On May 07 2010 04:54 fathead wrote:
There you have folks. "There's nothing to see here. Look away, go about your business, Blizzard is in control, go back to sleep and send us your three payments of $60 for an inferior game that we broke before we even went to beta". That is the D- newbie argument.
Emm, actually Blizzard is in control. Who is forcing you to pay 3x60$? Read the user agreement. They can do whatever they want with their game. People like it - people buy it. People dont like it - people dont buy it. Isn't it obvious? Ur just nobody making a small post in a unofficial website.
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On May 07 2010 08:37 RAZROK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 04:54 fathead wrote:
There you have folks. "There's nothing to see here. Look away, go about your business, Blizzard is in control, go back to sleep and send us your three payments of $60 for an inferior game that we broke before we even went to beta". That is the D- newbie argument. Emm, actually Blizzard is in control. Who is forcing you to pay 3x60$? Read the user agreement. They can do whatever they want with their game. People like it - people buy it. People dont like it - people dont buy it. Isn't it obvious? Ur just nobody making a small post in a unofficial website and post.
....the pt is that the community cares about where the game is heading!?!?!? Why dont you see that. We understand they are making money out of this but, Blizzard as a company also knows that they have a loyal fanbase that they can cater to and the better they make this game the more profit they will have. The pt of mass beta keys is to get the publics view of the game also, however small of an impact, it has on the final product.
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Define lucky though. Starcraft was an immense success long before it became an immensely successful e-sport. Blizzard as a company also produced other hugely successful franchises like warcraft RTS, WoW, and Diablo.
So, I don't consider them lucky.
Ok, I'll try to do my best. Diablo, WC2 and others blizzard game where really great (considering we were playing on a 486DX :D). And blizzard makes good quality games.
But Starcraft was not just great. It's so incredibly amazing that it becomes a nationnal sport in korea and is still played more than 10 years after, which is really huge for a videogame.
The thing that makes the difference were discovered post starcraft, and so where lucky. So blizzard was lucky when they do a great game (this is because they have talent and expereince) but they were lucky on this littles thing that make starcraft so incredible.
Hope this is better explained like this.
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On May 07 2010 08:37 RAZROK wrote:
Emm, actually Blizzard is in control. Who is forcing you to pay 3x60$? Read the user agreement. They can do whatever they want with their game. People like it - people buy it. People dont like it - people dont buy it. Isn't it obvious? Ur just nobody making a small post in a unofficial website.
Thanks for clearing that up, I thought for a second that I was the president of blizzard. Now that you told me that they can do what ever they want and I have choice as whether or not to buy, things are a lot clearer.
/sarcasm off
WE are the community, blizzard is great BECAUSE it listens to it's fans not in spite of it. They WANT out input or else they wouldn't give out beta keys.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 07 2010 05:42 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 05:40 deadalnix wrote:http://us.starcraft2.com/launcher/patch-notes.htmHolly crap, they didn't get it at all ! The helion is buffed but the wrong way (it stay as boring as it was) and the phenix can shot while moving, which is actually very different from what we call moving shot here. They are too focused one unit/damage/range instead of what is really missing, come dynamic in the game. It isn't even the real moving shot :/ . It's just a unit that can naturally shoot while moving and pivot and fly backwards. There's no real action specific micro involved other than moving it around.
I find it amusing that you guys are raging at the patch in Lalush's thread when Lalush himself concedes that this is a step in the right direction in the patch thread.
It's not perfect, but at least it's enough of an indication that Blizzard knows the problem exists and are doing what they can within the limitations of their engine to fix it.
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On May 07 2010 08:54 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 08:37 RAZROK wrote:
Emm, actually Blizzard is in control. Who is forcing you to pay 3x60$? Read the user agreement. They can do whatever they want with their game. People like it - people buy it. People dont like it - people dont buy it. Isn't it obvious? Ur just nobody making a small post in a unofficial website. Thanks for clearing that up, I thought for a second that I was the president of blizzard. Now that you told me that they can do what ever they want and I have choice as whether or not to buy, things are a lot clearer. /sarcasm off WE are the community, blizzard is great BECAUSE it listens to it's fans not in spite of it. They WANT out input or else they wouldn't give out beta keys.
Then contact blizzard with ur suggestions, post on their forums... Otherwise its just QQ. I mean we can all talk smart, but go and actually do something if you have ur opinion on such things.
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http://www.maxfreak.com/starcraft2/archives/top-5-differences-between-starcraft-2-and-warcraft-3/
"As opposed to Warcraft III where the player controls a few units with many different special abilities, Starcraft 2 will be a numbers game, says Pardo:
Starcraft 2 [units] will instead act as “movers and shooters”–mostly autonomous forces that generally lack special abilities, but will instead be used in large control groups to “do their own thing” in battle, rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."
:/
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It is true, Warcraft 3 requires more micro. You notice how few units you make in Warcraft 3? That isn't an accident.
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On May 10 2010 00:01 Fizban140 wrote:
It is true, Warcraft 3 requires more micro. You notice how few units you make in Warcraft 3? That isn't an accident.
Yeah, but my post had nothing to do with wc3 vs sc2. Just what the high-up at blizzard said about sc2. About it's units being mostly movers and shooters without special abilites. A game of macro where the biggest army wins.
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This article is really old. It's dealling with special abilities phenix is supposed to have, but hasn't anymore for a long time !
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Great articel.
I totally agreed with everything.
There is no "feeling" in SC2.
It is the "feeling" that makes SC such an awsome game.
SC2 is like some weird mix between Command and conquer + WC3.
SC2 is such a disappointment.
Oh well, I better get on with my life
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On May 11 2010 04:14 Mangemongen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 00:01 Fizban140 wrote:
It is true, Warcraft 3 requires more micro. You notice how few units you make in Warcraft 3? That isn't an accident. Yeah, but my post had nothing to do with wc3 vs sc2. Just what the high-up at blizzard said about sc2. About it's units being mostly movers and shooters without special abilites. A game of macro where the biggest army wins.
Its really not a good idea to quote developers from interviews, what they say and what they do are always different things. Even if he did say that he might have just been trying to pain a broad picture. He might have meant that Starcraft 2 will have larger battles and the level of micro from Warcraft 3 (moving hurt units back even late into the game) isn't going to be as vital.
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EPT
