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On April 28 2010 08:12 Ace wrote:
That argument makes no sense. A sequel can still be groundbreaking because it only has to retain some concepts of the original. Terminator 2, Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 were all major ground breaking sequels. Sequels CAN be radically different and still really good.
Anyway the point of micro needing to be introduced the way it was in BW is good. The game needs something that rewards you for skill instead of a build order war. Flash and other programers are great because of their micro - not their macro. Countless times we've seen foreigners vs Koreans in tournaments and majority of the times even the greatest macro foreigners lose because of being outdone in micro.
Lastly people must understand that the base skill level for SC2 is much higher. All the micro tricks found during BWs life cycle were found because the RTS genre was still a baby. There weren't many games that had an engine and interface that allowed those kinds of mechanics to shine. Now it's 2010 and you can't use the argument that SC2 is different so we'll find new micro tricks - that is just inherently wrong. The player base has grown up, RTS has survived as a legit gaming genre and almost all of us can do basic micro in BW. The new game has to account for this new player skill so the point that we'll find new tricks is moot. There must be something that keeps the us going "this game takes skill" but luckily it's Beta so we have plenty of time.
Flash's strategic timing and macro ability is far more important to him winning than his micro. He understands the game on an entirely different level than anyone else right now.
The RTS genre was not a baby at all; Warcraft, Warcraft II, Command and Conquer, among others had been out for YEARS.
WCIII tried to revolutionize the genre, and it was hounded, especially by people on here, as too different from Starcraft, too focused on heroes, micro, etc.
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On April 28 2010 08:19 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 07:59 PanzerDragoon wrote:On April 28 2010 07:54 Half wrote:On April 28 2010 07:48 PanzerDragoon wrote:
Stuff like Micro is flashy and noticeable, but why the best players are so good is the less obvious stuff. Their macro ability, their strategic timing and game sense, and just a general understanding of the game. Yes, the micro is fantastic, but players like Flash win on their overall game ability and not because they can vulture harass. Of course. I think its silly to say SC2 requires no skill. However, a game that is solely about how well two players macro and their strategy and tactics with no amazing micro moments is boring to play and watch. Well since SC2 has already had interesting micro, I'd say we don't have to worry about it being boring. The one advantage with SC2 is you get to watch new strategies develop and be used, which is fascinating. With Brood War, that is a much rarer occurrence =\. I still love watching Korean BW but I would pretty much never watch any level of BW below Korean Pro at this point, as SC2 is just more interesting to watch develop. See you just defined my worries with SC2. Yes, SC2 is interesting to watch at this moment because of strategy. I love the Strategy NoNY used in the recent HDH, but I wasn't awed by its micro, or almost any micro I've seen in the SC2 beta. "I could do that" is my prevalent thought. Could I do that while keeping up macro tasks and unit ques? No, but in comparison to BW play, its a huge difference. In BW, I'm frequently awed by some of the Micro plays I see in the game. What happens when SC2 can no longer rest on its changing, dynamic metagame? What happens when its six years old? Will it have the dynamic play independent of meta that BW did? Doubtful. Show nested quote +Also, do we forget there are two more expansions to be balanced? That will throw all the Build Orders and strategies we make right now for a loop and completely remake how to play, just like Brood War did? lol. Who the hell do you think makes expansions? This post is directed on the future development of Starcraft 2, trying to influences its development. It isn't "Lets all give up and go back to BW".
Brood War strategy continues to evolve to this day, so I'm not really worried about SC2 losing its dynamic metagame anytime soon.
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The harder you make the game the more of a disadvantage you give to the new gamer, which is Blizzard's focus audence. Blizzard isn't trying to really market this game toward SC:BW players or even RTS gamers. Like someone said before, this is the sequel to the greatest RTS ever created, gamers are gonna purchase a copy of SC2 no matter what they do to it. Of course they are a huge company and still invest a lot into balance but their immediate attention is to how to make the game more attractive to new customers.
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On April 28 2010 08:17 qtpie wrote:
the short version: skill is something you can develop, beyond that it's only talent.
Are you implying that people are physically incapable of playing Starcraft on the same level as Koreans? Because...our fingers aren't as fast?
.....
I believe mechanics does come into play in every game. However, I don't think mechanics should be THE DECIDING FACTOR. And from what I can gather in the youtube clips and posts people make here, that's exactly what broodwar was like.
That isn't mechanics. That is the exact opposite of mechanics. That is creative play. Mechanics is macroing an army, forming a concave, and casting three EMP's.
On April 28 2010 01:52 SkelA wrote:
That's your take on things and what you think a RTS game should be like. However as i previously stated you are describing something more along the lines of an action game than what a RTS should be. And of course this is all just different point of views but see if I complained that WoW only lets me control one single character, or complain that starcraft units don't have nearly as many usable skills as an mmorpg character has, I wouldn't be making too much sense would I? And if every character had as many skills as an mmo char have to use, don't you think the game would be a lot more difficult and the skill ceiling would shoot through your roof? But that's not what a RTS game is.
I dunno, but I just don't see why a commander of war needs to be an excellent sharpshooter a weapons/explosives specialist or someone trained in hand to hand combat. I am sure the average american can kick napoleon's ass but I don't think that many of us can take him on in real warfare, and isn't that what RTS is about?
Nobody in the history of mankind has made a successful competitive strategy game since Chess and Go. Strategy is by definition predicting your opponents moves. A pure Strategy game is not possible to implement in real time because variables are inputted every second A persons finesse at a RTS is defined by how far he can predict his opponents moves, and how he chooses to counter these moves. In real time, their is a very short cap on how relevantly you can predict your opponents moves.
SC2 is about a combination of Tactics and Strategy, like every single RTS ever made.
Brood War strategy continues to evolve to this day, so I'm not really worried about SC2 losing its dynamic metagame anytime soon.
Yes, it does, but not as dynamically, it is a much slower evolution. As my person I was quoting seemed to dislike. Of SC2, when it gets a stable meta, can't draw players in on strategy anymore, it'll need micro to stay alive.
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On April 28 2010 08:22 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 22:55 Shade692003 wrote:On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space. I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1. ok Don't know if anyone already confirmed but using this method you can moving shot just fine. Took like 20 seconds to confirm it
I imagined that would make it like the mothership.. attacks without having to issue an attack? Is it really the same?
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boy this long ass thread was a boring read ... and i thought it would be microed
to sum up :
1/the attack while moving mechanic disappearing from sc1 to sc2 is, i think, the main subject perhaps this laudable post should have been titled more appropriately
2/only few people discuss it in this thread (or maybe don't understand that it applies to more than mutas' stacking...) and that it could explain a "certain klunkynesk thoresk attitude of all the units in sc2 ... but the thread gets o so boringly filled with uninteresting bla
3/why would any player argue against reimplementing ONE of the coolest features of sc1 into sc2? (more precisely why would they if they have not even experienced it, and that's cool, you don't have to experience it, just trust us that's it's everyone's gain to incorporate everything that's possible)
tl just disappointed me by not moderating this thread
(oh and post stats suck, why would anyone figure that quantity of post (or even existence of) is sign of quality of future posts (or lack thereof), ergo : if you have not posted yet you are 12 years old and started on wc3 ... DUH, ... don't worry your rantings will go undisturbed by me at least)
the original post was interesting (spare us the lecture on emotions and whotnot)
the discussion/posts that it spurred, parting from the subject of why blizz is not implementing attack move, might have reached the next level with :
"why all the units have a "new" control style" (and what it is) might have emerged
(lalusch was on the verge of getting us there, but with all your rants he's not going to be too readily eager to lash again ...)
(i always like a day9 quote, but threads are there for discussion and quotes are worthless if your not contributing to the fray)
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On April 28 2010 08:32 errol1001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 08:22 kNyTTyM wrote:On April 27 2010 22:55 Shade692003 wrote:On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space. I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1. ok Don't know if anyone already confirmed but using this method you can moving shot just fine. Took like 20 seconds to confirm it I imagined that would make it like the mothership.. attacks without having to issue an attack? Is it really the same?
yup now I'm experimenting with scvs, phoenix, and a whole bunch of other units.
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On April 28 2010 02:30 infrinjinsin wrote:
Here's a news flash: Sequels are ALWAYS a let-down for die hard fans.
This is not true. Diablo II was an amazingly addictive and fun game, much more so than Diablo. Why? Because they took the GOOD elements from Diablo and expanded and improved upon them.
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On April 28 2010 08:40 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 08:32 errol1001 wrote:On April 28 2010 08:22 kNyTTyM wrote:On April 27 2010 22:55 Shade692003 wrote:On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space. I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1. ok Don't know if anyone already confirmed but using this method you can moving shot just fine. Took like 20 seconds to confirm it I imagined that would make it like the mothership.. attacks without having to issue an attack? Is it really the same? yup now I'm experimenting with scvs, phoenix, and a whole bunch of other units.
NO! PRACTICE BW FOR CSL NEXT SEASON
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On April 28 2010 08:34 baskerville wrote:
(i always like a day9 quote, but threads are there for discussion and quotes are worthless if your not contributing to the fray)
Does it count if I contributed 30 pages ago? 
I was actually thinking earlier today about something Day9 said in his first daily where he featured starcraft 2.
It was something along the lines of leaving the game development to the developers and figure out how to win, no matter what game/mechanics/changes you are given. Your job as a player is to use what you have, not think about what you want to have.
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Nice article in terms of amusement, but i find there are far too many "i feel," and other abstract descriptors for my taste. If moving shots turn out to be some kind of holy grail for gameplay and sc2 just cannot produce it, then we'll all be bowing down to the OP for his clairvoyance. That being said, i'm not convinced this game is any less interesting to play or watch because a few micro tricks are gone. After all, the genre is "real time strategy" not "real time micro," twitch reflex is only a small part of the equation. Learning and adapting build orders, counter-unit compositions, effective attack positions, variations of these by map, race, and the various nuances of the units (which we're discovering by the day, check all the band-new hoopla over void rays) are also part of the strategy game here.
At the end of the day, we all realize the game isn't complete, and there are certainly patches yet to come. After playing hundreds of beta games at the platinum level I don't really see the sinking ship leaking from the obvious lack of micro. I see an interesting sequal to starcraft that still needs polish, but has the makings of a very successful follow-up to the legendary BW. Only time will tell how much the game follows in BW's successful steps, but i think it's quite foolhardy to assume that lightning struck when brood war's engine was created and that no game will ever again capture the imaginations of that many gamers for such a long period of time.
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On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space.
omg, if this is true.... Im gonna go check this right now, but when the patch comes out that lets us play custom, we could change this for all units and see if the game feels better, and if it does we could use it as a driving force to show blizzard and see what they think
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Definitely a good, if not disheartening, read. I played a bit of StarCraft over the last 10 years, not enough to even scratch the surface of getting good before I quit again... But I picked up SC2 with some seriousness, and now I really hope what I'm playing isn't a watered-down version of the mythic Brood War.
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On April 28 2010 09:30 Triscuit wrote:
Definitely a good, if not disheartening, read. I played a bit of StarCraft over the last 10 years, not enough to even scratch the surface of getting good before I quit again... But I picked up SC2 with some seriousness, and now I really hope what I'm playing isn't a watered-down version of the mythic Brood War.
I wonder if blizzard notices this topic getting like... a billion posts in a few days lol
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Very interesting post, and good job figuring out exactly what didn't "feel right" to you about micro in SC2. I recommend that you make your language more respectful of Blizzard and the lead designer of SC2, or there is no way they will listen to your suggestion (although it sure was fun to read!  ).
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I smell Teamliquid's first ProMod......
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All in all, I'm pleased with the game so far. It feels more or less like StarCraft. Air units, however, definitely feel clunkier than they did in Brood War.
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Are you implying that people are physically incapable of playing Starcraft on the same level as Koreans? Because...our fingers aren't as fast?
.....
maybe no for you but yes for me? And it's not a racial thing at least I don't think every korean is capable of being a progamer, but rather there's more demand for it in korea than in say north america.
I am incapable of playing a lot of games on a higher than normal level because of my inability to fire off accurately on my mouse or keyboard. Even if i knew what i had to do, my hand will screw me over and I end up worse off (such as failing to micro by attacking my own unit because I am a motion retard)
That isn't mechanics. That is the exact opposite of mechanics. That is creative play. Mechanics is macroing an army, forming a concave, and casting three EMP's.
I disagree, either that or my engrish sucks too much and I am using the wrong word. When i said mechanics i meant the mechanic aspect of the game, which is basically the issuing of commands from you to the interface (keyboard/mouse).
Creativity? The first person to utilize the dunk was innovative and creative by making use of space in a 3 dimensional aspect, but the person who can do it from the foul line isn't creative, he's just more talented. Creativity is making use of what you can to make up for what you don't have, not being better than other people at doing what everyone needs to do to be good. [/quote]
Nobody in the history of mankind has made a successful competitive strategy game since Chess and Go. Strategy is by definition predicting your opponents moves. A pure Strategy game is not possible to implement in real time because variables are inputted every second A persons finesse at a RTS is defined by how far he can predict his opponents moves, and how he chooses to counter these moves. In real time, their is a very short cap on how relevantly you can predict your opponents moves.
SC2 is about a combination of Tactics and Strategy, like every single RTS ever made.
This whole paragraph is weird.
I never argued with the fact that a RTS is basically strategy in real time, making quick and well thought out decisions in a split second based on information you have on your opponent all the while fighting your opponent and giving pressure whenever you can. But the only thing I have a problem with is I don't believe the issuing of said commands should be the challenge in this type of game.
My POV: any unit in a RTS game should be capable of doing what a player asks it to do with minimal regard to the ability of the player to move his hands across his keyboard. There's a very high chance that I can't do the moving shot on broodwar even if i practice properly, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to use it, yet I can't use it because my hand is inferior. This kind of disability has no place in a STRATEGY game, and it is the job of the designers to make it so that a true RTS game, while being in real time, should not require the player to have robot like maneuverability over his keyboard and mouse to be able to control his units properly in real time.
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EPT
