EPTOh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 47
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rugmonkey
United Kingdom126 Posts
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
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Kigal
4 Posts
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:06 Jayme wrote: I would not be so sure of that statement. Almost every game nowadays is going to cater primarily to the casual gamer, that's just the way of the market at the moment. In the end the number of casual gamers will vastly outnumber the amount of hardcore gamers. For an example, just see what happened with WoW. The amount of people playing UMS and BGH and fastest maps has always outnumbered hardcore ladder and ICCUPers, but somehow that didn't hurt Brood War. | ||
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commanderchobo
Canada53 Posts
even watching replays of the top guys i dont really see what makes them different from the 1600 plat players i see | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:48 PanzerDragoon wrote: Stuff like Micro is flashy and noticeable, but why the best players are so good is the less obvious stuff. Their macro ability, their strategic timing and game sense, and just a general understanding of the game. Yes, the micro is fantastic, but players like Flash win on their overall game ability and not because they can vulture harass. Of course. I think its silly to say SC2 requires no skill. However, a game that is solely about how well two players macro and their strategy and tactics with no amazing micro moments is boring to play and watch. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:54 Half wrote: Of course. I think its silly to say SC2 requires no skill. However, a game that is solely about how well two players macro and their strategy and tactics with no amazing micro moments is boring to play and watch. A good summary of the entire thread. | ||
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Belano
Sweden657 Posts
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:54 Half wrote: Of course. I think its silly to say SC2 requires no skill. However, a game that is solely about how well two players macro and their strategy and tactics with no amazing micro moments is boring to play and watch. Well since SC2 has already had interesting micro, I'd say we don't have to worry about it being boring. The one advantage with SC2 is you get to watch new strategies develop and be used, which is fascinating. With Brood War, that is a much rarer occurrence =\. I still love watching Korean BW but I would pretty much never watch any level of BW below Korean Pro at this point, as SC2 is just more interesting to watch develop. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:47 PanzerDragoon wrote: The amount of people playing UMS and BGH and fastest maps has always outnumbered hardcore ladder and ICCUPers, but somehow that didn't hurt Brood War. Yea it's the same concept in every game. The difference is that the general trend in gaming has VASTLY leaned toward the "make it easier to bridge the gap" gameplay. This is completely undeniable because there is evidence of this in plenty of games. People are generally interested in accomplishments and immediate satisfaction from "achieving" something, regardless of how easy it is to achieve. It is also a different environment now. SC2 is being released in a totally different environment than SCBW. In SCBW you had a ground breaking game so you could easily take liberties. SCBW paved the way for RTS balance and how they work. You can take liberties when you do that. If you are being completely honest with yourself you honestly have to admit there is nothing "ground breaking" about SC2. It's just another game, one that is getting so much hype only because it's the sequel to the greatest RTS to ever exist. SC2 is a good game, but I don't think it'll ever have the impact SCBW did on the scene in it's current form. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
Otherwise you all would be complaining about it being too radically different from Brood War! SC2 was always doomed on this board if it wasn't a graphical overhaul of BW because every hyped sequel will always be viewed as a disappointment by a subset of hardcore fans. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
Yes but that's my point, it's all a matter of values, if it's easier than values get driven up. It's a mistake to compare iccup rank with this because it isn't the same. What will happen is that people will have to get really high up to get any respect. Won't there be a "proleague" above platinum? And sorry I used the wrong term in my previous post, by "platinum" i meant it more this way "to a high standing" | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
It will be years before we reach "optimal play" and optimal strategies, just like it was with Brood War. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Anyway the point of micro needing to be introduced the way it was in BW is good. The game needs something that rewards you for skill instead of a build order war. Flash and other programers are great because of their micro - not their macro. Countless times we've seen foreigners vs Koreans in tournaments and majority of the times even the greatest macro foreigners lose because of being outdone in micro. Lastly people must understand that the base skill level for SC2 is much higher. All the micro tricks found during BWs life cycle were found because the RTS genre was still a baby. There weren't many games that had an engine and interface that allowed those kinds of mechanics to shine. Now it's 2010 and you can't use the argument that SC2 is different so we'll find new micro tricks - that is just inherently wrong. The player base has grown up, RTS has survived as a legit gaming genre and almost all of us can do basic micro in BW. The new game has to account for this new player skill so the point that we'll find new tricks is moot. There must be something that keeps the us going "this game takes skill" but luckily it's Beta so we have plenty of time. | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
Great post and should be read by Blizzard. Hope you are heard. | ||
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qtpie
Canada16 Posts
On April 28 2010 01:44 Garrl wrote: [ I've heard it's possible to get to C+/B-ish with about 150 APM on ICCUP, you don't need a high APM, just good decision making. Starcraft is only known (among the uneducated) as a 'who can click faster' game because of the very high skill ceiling; if you're on the same strategic level as your opponent, THEN mechanics will definately come into play. You say "very high skill ceiling"... but what you are calling skill is essentially talent, and not skill itself. If gaming is to be compared to physical sports, then APM is pretty much the muscle power of a competitor. Sure, you can train your body to some extent and everyone should train their bodies properly for the sport they are playing, but the amount of explosive power you have for that initial burst, the height of a player and how high he can jump is mostly not trainable beyond a certain extent. Why do you think there's like nearly no asians in the NBA? because the sport itself gives people of western descent an unfair advantage over the advantage a smaller asian frame would offer (which really is only a slightly longer lifespan and less prone to serious injuries)? I mean seriously do you think a chinese man grows up WANTING to compete in gymnastics? Or play Ping Pong instead of football or hockey? There are skills based sports with less demand for a physical advantage too, and in those areas you begin to see more asian competitors. (cough esports cough). the short version: skill is something you can develop, beyond that it's only talent. I believe mechanics does come into play in every game. However, I don't think mechanics should be THE DECIDING FACTOR. And from what I can gather in the youtube clips and posts people make here, that's exactly what broodwar was like. On April 28 2010 01:52 SkelA wrote: This is why STARCRAFT is the best RTS of all time compared to the rest of the RTS crap that has been created so far and why there is ESPORT scene in Korea for only one RTS game which is STARCRAFT. The equimpent its not so imporant in SC like compared with CS. I can execute most of the pro micro with a crappy noname chinese mouse . And i have a really bad apm compared to pro players. I can micro good but my macro is gonna suffer because of that and its because of my limitations. This is why pro players will never lose to a amateurs most of the time. That cant be said for SC2. Even noob can win a "pro" if he gets a bo advantage and the oponent cant do shit to counter it. That's your take on things and what you think a RTS game should be like. However as i previously stated you are describing something more along the lines of an action game than what a RTS should be. And of course this is all just different point of views but see if I complained that WoW only lets me control one single character, or complain that starcraft units don't have nearly as many usable skills as an mmorpg character has, I wouldn't be making too much sense would I? And if every character had as many skills as an mmo char have to use, don't you think the game would be a lot more difficult and the skill ceiling would shoot through your roof? But that's not what a RTS game is. I dunno, but I just don't see why a commander of war needs to be an excellent sharpshooter a weapons/explosives specialist or someone trained in hand to hand combat. I am sure the average american can kick napoleon's ass but I don't think that many of us can take him on in real warfare, and isn't that what RTS is about? | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 28 2010 07:59 PanzerDragoon wrote: Well since SC2 has already had interesting micro, I'd say we don't have to worry about it being boring. The one advantage with SC2 is you get to watch new strategies develop and be used, which is fascinating. With Brood War, that is a much rarer occurrence =\. I still love watching Korean BW but I would pretty much never watch any level of BW below Korean Pro at this point, as SC2 is just more interesting to watch develop. See you just defined my worries with SC2. Yes, SC2 is interesting to watch at this moment because of strategy. I love the Strategy NoNY used in the recent HDH, but I wasn't awed by its micro, or almost any micro I've seen in the SC2 beta. "I could do that" is my prevalent thought. Could I do that while keeping up macro tasks and unit ques? No, but in comparison to BW play, its a huge difference. In BW, I'm frequently awed by some of the Micro plays I see in the game. What happens when SC2 can no longer rest on its changing, dynamic metagame? What happens when its six years old? Will it have the dynamic play independent of meta that BW did? Doubtful. Also, do we forget there are two more expansions to be balanced? That will throw all the Build Orders and strategies we make right now for a loop and completely remake how to play, just like Brood War did? lol. Who the hell do you think makes expansions? This post is directed on the future development of Starcraft 2, trying to influences its development. It isn't "Lets all give up and go back to BW". | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Although I don't agree that SC1 had perfect control (Dragoons, Reaver Scarabs... they simply don't obey you =/ this actually drove me off the game quite a lot), this lack of moving shots also seemed bad for me :S I mean, yeah, they were a bug in SC1, but it was an immensely good bug. It is very similar to the animation cancels in GunZ. I also do think that it can be done with Galaxy Editor : Void Rays have a moving attack. Even their attack seems to be coded in a completely different way, and tweaks like making the attack animation actually give the unit a movement in some direction is just a few function calls away from the way they currently are. And no, Blizzard -- much like most game designers nowadays -- have absolutely no idea of how much effort, and the amount of detail that a serious gamer works with in a game. Ever heard of a fightning game with a 1-frame precision required for some specific tricks? Ever heard of one that wasn't a bug? They have absolutely no idea, no idea at all. I wouldn't belive in this kind of stuff myself, if I hadn't played GunZ, or seen absurd things such as Korean progamers playing SC:BW, or people from Speed Demos Archive abusing techniques found at TASVideos.org, even if they need to use something like the pause button when they can't frame-advance. A few notes I'd like to say, though: - turning animations being required for ground units is a Good thing. I have seen once a Z player microing speedlings to kill Zealots with minimal losses. He used the superior ling speed and attack speed to hit the zealots on their back, and they couldn't hit the lings because they turned away too slowly. I'd like to see speedlings being able to do "moving hits" too though =/ I mean, imagine how awesome it would be to littteraly overrun stuff with lings =) - not so sure about that for ranged units, or even flying units (not that there are any flying melee units in SC2, but you've got to dream a little) - Void Ray micro is beautiful to see. You won't see it being used for "fast" harassment, since the unit is uber slow, but the fact that it can do moving shots makes a micro opening nevertheless: it makes it possible to move with it without losing the charge. - Hellions shouldn't have a moving shot. It is a characteristic of this unit in particular that they need to stop for a while before attacking. And with their costs, speed and being builtable from a reactor rax, they also serve as a vollatile meatshield. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:55 Shade692003 wrote: I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1. ok Don't know if anyone already confirmed but using this method you can moving shot just fine. Took like 20 seconds to confirm it | ||
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