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Sigh, now I see why most of the forum vets hardly post in here.
Listen, some of you don't even understand what the OP is about. If you have Unit A that is supposed to counter unit B but it can't due to game mechanics giving one side an advantage in engagement because the other has to decelerate to shoot the aggressor dictates where the battle takes place. The defender can't defend inside his own base due to having to chase->stop->fire instead of in BW where you could chase->fire->chase micro your air units. Huge difference.
I had to put that in extremely layman's terms but hopefully SOME of you that are discussing in here stop making stuff up and learn what is being said.
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I tried editing the slowing,moving,none but i noticed little to no difference. I say that cuz idk if the difference i THINK i noticed was even there or if i just imagined it. I tried looking through stuff. Do you guys know what the "random delay" is? every unit has a random minimum delay and a random maximum delay. Could that be something? Ill try messing with that later
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This is the mental image I got after some of this thread:
Sorry for not contributing to the conversation. That is all.
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Wow, great read, its funny i just read this after playing a game where i just could not get my void ray to do what i wanted it keep attacking anything it saw when moving and would not move right after i attacked, i just thought i suck which i might but thats not the point, it is a noticeable difference for anyone who has used BW units
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On April 28 2010 06:55 xinxy wrote:
I only registered to TL to reply to this thread. I agree that the OP has a good point but however it doesn't seem that this is a limitation of the game engine at all. The Corsair-like behavior can very easily be accomplished with the Phoenix in SC2.
After messing around a little bit with the Phoenix properties and making it more similar to the Corsair in terms of instant splash damage as opposed to projectile single target damage I was able to emulate a very similar behavior between the two. I also messed around with the unit acceleration/deceleration, firing delay, and many other settings. It seemed like I had a Corsair in my hands, the only difference being that it looked like a Phoenix. lol
If it works with the editor it obviously means the engine is very capable of running it. The current Phoenix behavior (and other units) seems to be a design decision and not a programming limitation. I have to say however that I don't agree with that design decision. I see the possibility of people creating external leagues based on SC2 mods that make the game play more like SC and BW.
Yes. I tried to make this point earlier. After Only a few minutes of messing with the editor you can make your very own Move-attacking phoenix.
I find it fairly ridiculous that people actually thought blizzard could not match an engine made in 98...but w/e.
It is well within the engine capacity, so is muta stacking, and muta micro, and just about everything else people miss. Blizzard designed its units to act just as they do.
I found the OP's post generally ridiculous, but I'm also not opposed to having more micro opportunities(even though I think there are so many more in SC2 than everyone seems to think). But more micro is always good, soo yah. Try to get blizzard to give phoenix a move shoot.
Mainly I think people are generally incredibly arrogant to think they have already mastered SC2 just cause they are good at SC1. And to all those people blabbing about beating top players so SC2 sucks...The top players don't know everything as well, and even in SC1 any player was beatable in the right game.
So this my last post in this thread cause its gotten to be a sludge match...
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Oh wow the editor has some sick stuff in it. Permanent muta stack is possible with it and I just tried it out.
Excuse my terrible micro
edit:omg magic boxes seem to work too!
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I've seen Corruptor's spell used on the opponent's Warpgates. ALL of the gates.
Was a funny sight.
I've also seen it used on a Planetary fortress.
As for the vikings landing I wish they actually boosted the groundm doe a little bit, I love seeing a bunch of them land, destroy something... and then quickly fly away.
I remember some weird Siege tank vs Viking fight, too...
I get your point about the sliding shots, though.
But I must ask: Why do people on these forums insist on using 1000 words for something you could sum up in a few sentences?
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really well written article
Im not a big debater so I won't really take a side, but I do find my hellions being very sad pandas quite often (as they fucking stop stopstopstopsotspto)
but honestly the air moving shot + nerfing air would be awesomo
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My POV: any unit in a RTS game should be capable of doing what a player asks it to do with minimal regard to the ability of the player to move his hands across his keyboard. There's a very high chance that I can't do the moving shot on broodwar even if i practice properly, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to use it, yet I can't use it because my hand is inferior. This kind of disability has no place in a STRATEGY game, and it is the job of the designers to make it so that a true RTS game, while being in real time, should not require the player to have robot like maneuverability over his keyboard and mouse to be able to control his units properly in real time. Unless you see micros as a buff that the player can give his units, and then figure out strategic ways to use it. The way to input the buff can vary from "+attack speed if unit is on screen" to "insane micros you can always get better at". The cost of the buff is obviously the impact this has on your macros, yet another tradeoff to consider strategically.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 28 2010 10:58 kNyTTyM wrote:Oh wow the editor has some sick stuff in it. Permanent muta stack is possible with it and I just tried it out. Excuse my terrible microedit:omg magic boxes seem to work too!
Man i'm starting to like sc2 alot more than i did already, if nothing else, at least the UMSs can still be very good :D
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Can't the Reaper move shot? (Or at least have a very fast turn/attack animation and acceleration, making it pretty much the same thing)?
Just wondering, I can't remember but I seem to remember seeing some Reaper micro in some of the games I've watched.
Or is this just considered kiting? x.x
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Canada8031 Posts
On April 28 2010 12:06 Homicide13 wrote:
Can't the Reaper move shot? (Or at least have a very fast turn/attack animation and acceleration, making it pretty much the same thing)?
Just wondering, I can't remember but I seem to remember seeing some Reaper micro in some of the games I've watched.
Or is this just considered kiting? x.x
It's just a fast turn. Moving shot requires that the unit be moving at the maximum allowed speed at all times, even while firing. No deceleration.
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I don't think Starcraft 2 has less micro, I think it has different micro. I won't believe that players have mastered the game like they claim (wrongly) until I see someone who can micro and macro at every moment possible like a pro.
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this is a fantastic write-up, i have a feeling its too far in development to make such a huge change though 
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On April 28 2010 12:17 alexanderzero wrote:
I don't think Starcraft 2 has less micro, I think it has different micro. I won't believe that players have mastered the game like they claim (wrongly) until I see someone who can micro and macro at every moment possible like a pro.
Please name 1 thing in sc2 that is more difficult than it's broodwar counterpart
micro, strategy, macro, anything
- Chronoboosting takes the same amount of clicks as manual mining
- macro in BW is MUCH more difficult than in SC2
- Unit composition is equally important
- scouting is equally important, but more apm intensive in BW, thus more difficult
- Highground mattered a LOT more in broodwar
- Army composition was MORE varied in broodwar
- Due to lack of infinite selection, flanking and position was more difficult in BW
- "kiting" micro existed in both games. However kiting in BW is more difficult (dont even challenge this one)
- For people who are saying "SC2 is more strategically oriented" no its not. BW is just as strategical if not more so, while on TOP of that, requiring huge multitask ability
It's not different micro, its LESS micro
it's not different strategy, its LESS strategy
Please read the below quotes
On April 27 2010 14:31 ymirheim wrote:
To go back to the TvP example you need to initially use your marauders to focus zealots at the front and then backwalk kite them to try and take them down while trying to take as little damage as possible from the protoss stalkers and immortals who are likely behind them, at the same time you need to make sure your marines are hitting the immortals and that the marauders go for stalkers once the zealots are down, you need to emp immortals and sentries and you constantly need to keep your army moving and being aware of forcefield placement.
To go back to the TvP example you need to initially use your vultures to focus zealots at the front and then backwalk kite them to try and take them down while trying to take as little damage as possible from the protoss dragoons and hightemplar who are likely behind them, at the same time you need to make sure your tanks are hitting the dragoons and that the vultures go for hightemplar once the zealots are down, you need to emp arbiters and hightemplar and you constantly need to keep your army moving and being aware of psionic storm.
Interestingly, anyone who understand broodwar will realize, on TOP of all this, you have to watch for arbiter stasis, mine drags, plant mine fields, focus reavers and dodge scarabs, build turrets, watch for zealot bombs, etc etc..
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On April 28 2010 08:42 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 02:30 infrinjinsin wrote:
Here's a news flash: Sequels are ALWAYS a let-down for die hard fans.
This is not true. Diablo II was an amazingly addictive and fun game, much more so than Diablo. Why? Because they took the GOOD elements from Diablo and expanded and improved upon them.
Diablo II came out before the advent of whining on internet forums/blogs for attention and groupthink.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On April 28 2010 11:02 LordLastDay wrote:
As for the vikings landing I wish they actually boosted the groundm doe a little bit, I love seeing a bunch of them land, destroy something... and then quickly fly away.
I remember some weird Siege tank vs Viking fight, too...
That would be incredibly imba -___-
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On April 28 2010 12:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 11:02 LordLastDay wrote:
As for the vikings landing I wish they actually boosted the groundm doe a little bit, I love seeing a bunch of them land, destroy something... and then quickly fly away.
I remember some weird Siege tank vs Viking fight, too...
That would be incredibly imba -___-
What would be imba?
I didn't even give a suggestion how to boost them.
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On April 28 2010 12:39 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 08:42 lu_cid wrote:On April 28 2010 02:30 infrinjinsin wrote:
Here's a news flash: Sequels are ALWAYS a let-down for die hard fans.
This is not true. Diablo II was an amazingly addictive and fun game, much more so than Diablo. Why? Because they took the GOOD elements from Diablo and expanded and improved upon them. Diablo II came out before the advent of whining on internet forums/blogs for attention and groupthink.
I don't see how that is relevant at all. I was merely showing his statement to be false by providing a counterexample.
There is no reason why SC2 shouldn't be able to please the hardcore broodwar fans. It's not an impossible task. They should have really considered what made broodwar such a great game, not only for players but for spectators as well. The way units need to be controlled in bw to be maximally effective is one of those elements, and a huge one at that. It should not be overlooked.
Sadly they have already stated that this was not their design philosophy.
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On April 28 2010 12:28 graemej wrote:this is a fantastic write-up, i have a feeling its too far in development to make such a huge change though
Fortunately, as people found out in the editor recently, it's basically just a toggle. There's an option of what movement is allowed when firing. Blizzard could very easily patch this into the game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://memegenerator.net/Insanity-Wolf/ImageMacro/968924/Insanity-Wolf-moving-shot-micro.jpg)
