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On April 28 2010 05:39 johnnybrav0 wrote:
I really understand both sides of this argument.
I also agree that the OP is condescending, and I'm actually somewhat appalled by the utter hatred going on of Blizzard in this thread, and the people saying they don't listen. From my experience, Blizzard and Valve are pretty much the only two companies that really try to take the extra effort to make their game as good as possible, as well as listen to the fans and continually patch the game years after release (I'm not 100% on this- but didn't Blizzard just RECENTLY patch Diablo II?) There is no doubt that Blizzard is in it to make cash, but their philosophy is to make money by keeping its fans satisfied, which isn't a bad company standpoint if you ask me.
StarCraft II is being developed to make money first, and to become a viable eSport second. Blizzard most definitely wants SC2 to become an eSport as successful as BW. I truly believe that StarCraft II has already made eSports more viable at least in the US, as you can already see the huge turnout on the streams for this beta.
I agree that watching Flash and Jaedong and other Korean pros pull off these maneuvers is nothing short of magical. And everyone keeps getting mad when people say, "this is SCII, not BW." Get mad if you want, but that really is a fact. Like it or not, SC2 is not being made to cater solely to the pros. Another fact is that when StarCraft was in beta or even when a pro scene was in its infancy, the gameplay was nowhere near the level it is at today (this has probably been stated like 400x in this thread- sorry for the repeat but once again this is a fact).
Some of you keep saying, "well SC didn't have a 12 year old game for basis." This is somewhat valid, but you cannot predict the level of play that will happen in this game in the near future, although I know you are just saying that these kind of micro opportunities simply don't and never will exist. Since beta began, strategies and tactics have already gotten very complex in comparison, and these strategies will only continue to grow. Who knows, some manipulation and "bugs" that make for this kind of gameplay may be discovered yet.
I highly doubt that Blizzard will add these features that are being asked for, for better or for worse. Unfortunately, this may leave many gamers that have posted in this thread in the dust. But SC2 will be a wildly successful and strategical game regardless. Flash and Jaedong and others may move on because you cannot pull off the kind of maneuvers specified in the OP, but other people like TLO and young Koreans will certainly become masters and pull off amazing feats in this game. As a spectator sport, SC2 has much to improve upon, but it will only get better over time. I already have a great deal of fun watching this game.
The fact is this: There has never been a sequel in the history of video games that hardcore fans of the original didn't complain about. Even Blizzard has acknowledged this. This also goes for movies, albums, books, etc. They will not satisfy all of you. It sucks but that's the way it is. Luckily for me, in almost all of these instances I have been able to accept the new gamplay elements for what they are and enjoy them:
Some examples:
BW-SC2
CS1.6-CS:S (heck even before that: CS 1.5-CS 1.6)
SSBM-SSBB
Goldeneye-Perfect Dark
Halo-Halo 2-Halo 3
Battlestar Galactica (original)-Battlestar Galactica (new)
Every sophomore album ever created by a band
The fact is, many veterans and longtime fans will feel personally offended or angry with changes made. In many of the games mentioned above where "bugs" were removed and engines improved, people complained that there is now a definied "skill ceiling," however in none of those games is there a point where there aren't players that stand above the rest by working within the framework of the game in a better way than everyone else out there.
tldr: I agree with both sides, but unfortunately for a lot of you, you probably will just have to move on. Veterans/longtime fans of ANYTHING will often find it hard to adapt/accept the changes (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's just a fact that some of you will have to face). SC2 will still be a viable eSport, although it remains to be seen how viable in comparison to BW.
/thread
On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:While the OP is fantastic, this thread has sunk to beyond garbage level Posters such as: Fallen Wintermute killias2 Should stop posting in the thread. This is not a "show your ignorance thread" Go do that somewhere else. Somebody please explain how there is a difficult amount of micro in SC2 - Chronoboosting takes the same amount of clicks as manual mining
- macro in BW is MUCH more difficult than in SC2
- Unit composition is equally important
- scouting is equally important, but more apm intensive in BW, thus more difficult
- Highground mattered a LOT more in broodwar
- Army composition was MORE varied in broodwar
- Due to lack of infinite selection, flanking and position was more difficult in BW
- "kiting" micro existed in both games. However kiting in BW is more difficult (dont even challenge this one)
- For people who are saying "SC2 is more strategically oriented" no its not. BW is just as strategical if not more so, while on TOP of that, requiring huge multitask ability
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW Please somebody tell me otherwise
Just because someone has a different view than you doesn't mean they're ignorant. I've made my argument. With the prevalence of hard counters, scouting is more important than SC2. If you scout the same amount in SC2 as in BW you are either wasting some time in BW or not scouting enough in SC2. Whether or not scouting is more APM intensive in BW is possibly up for debate, but Com Scan, for example, is far more expensive (loss of a mule!) in SC2 than SC1. Observers and Overlords are broadly comparable, and I feel like Terrans are more likely to wall in due to dropable supply depots. Chronoboosting and other new macro features may take just a few clicks or something, but they require constant focus on the economy. This isn't easy for someone who is harassing, scouting, fighting, expanding, or even focusing on teching or building up an army, but, for players who can multitask, the economic gains will lead to a likely victory. High ground matters more in SC2, until there is air, which I admit. However, I still think mobility is more prevalent in SC2, is micro intensive, and has huge impacts on battles. I wouldn't say army composition was more varied. Your average Toss player almost always has every single ground unit in the game, with the possible exceptions of the templar. If you're playing a guy who spams one unit, chances are.. you can absolutely crush him by scouting and creating the counter.
Overall, I just don't see your argument. You make a bunch of points but don't really argue any of them.
At the end of the day, I think the following points are valid:
1. This mechanic is interesting
2. The loss of it takes away one interesting thing from Starcraft
However, I don't think anyone has proven any of the following:
1. There is no difference between pros and amateurs. APM/skill/etc. does not matter. If you wish to debate this, don't engage in theorycraft. PROVE IT TO ME! I want words from high ranking pros that skills don't matter. I want some evidence that APM is not correlated with victory. Having played the game a lot, I just don't believe this at all. Most of my previous arguments have been based on this point, so I won't reiterate them. Regardless, the burden of proof isn't on me. The null hypothesis is that skill matters. Demonstrate that it doesn't, and I'll yield.
2. There are no interesting mechanics introduced by Starcraft 2. This is probably in the eye of the beholder, but, again, I just don't agree at all. The new mobility from the Toss and the Terrans is a blast to play around with. Flanking a guy with a warpgate army is just incredibly satisfying. I love the reapers (although they probably could be retooled to become more than just cheese), the vikings, the colossus, the warp prism, the warp gate, the medivac (distinct from the dropship, as medics are quite important to a bio army), the moving supply depots, and plenty of other aspects of Starcraft 2. Keep in mind, this is a distinct argument from number 1. There is a difference over whether or not something distinguishes skilled from unskilled players and whether or not something is just fun or interesting. As much as I'd prefer the glide and move attack options, I probably won't return to BW because I love so much of the new stuff. Again, I agree that this is a matter of opinion. If you prefer playing Brood War, then you might want to keep playing it. I still play Street Fighter Alpha 3 even though there are plenty of other entries in the series. Ditto with Mega Man 2. We're not taking BW away from you, and plenty of other people enjoy what SC2 offers.
In the end, if SC2 does not dumb down the competition aspect, which certainly has yet to be demonstrated by anything other than conjecture about a minor mechanic from BW and anecdotes about how the game "feels," and if people enjoy it, this comes down to what I've already stated: you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If you prefer Brood War, please continue to play it.
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On April 28 2010 06:02 SirGlinG wrote:
Your'e misunderstanding his point.
" Now which viewpoint is right? I have an opinion that I'm not going to share, and maybe you have one too, but ultimately it isn't about what "many" people think, because "many" people think hand guns should be banned and many people think hand guns should be legal every where, and many people have beliefs that are shades of grey."
Please stop discussing this. I already corrected myself. Thank you.
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On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be.
That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1.
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But in Blizzard’s awesome engine, a body in motion will stay in motion unless… it exceeds its deceleration timer?
I had been semi-raging through the article but this is where I really saw the issue. You just want to play Starcraft. Solution: Starcraft: Brood War.
I don't follow the micro scene well so I don't know if it was initially intended that these shots you want even exist. It seems to me like they're an abuse of game mechanics, especially in the valkyrie video. I've had that used against me but never knew quite how it was pulled off.
In a newer game, it's necessary to improve on game mechanics. Seeing air units fly at each other, then dart away, just looks silly. It isn't realistic, even for a game with aliens and General Duke(Duke could never exist). I've seen a lot of games played with hellions where they were very good early game harass and decent late game harass. If they don't do so well in fights against collossi, then plant them as sentries for expansions or as a distraction in for when the battle begins elsewhere(presumably taking out their economy while their army is away).
Why shouldn't Starcraft 2 have a bigger focus on strategy than micro? Maybe the freedom you had before was too easily given. Perhaps you should have to work your mind more and your fingers less.
Edit: Forgot to make my first point. A body in motion stays in motion until the force is used up. Yes it's a timer. That's how you program things into a video game. You can understand the transition of counting down to the real life aspect that time passes as the object slows. You could make an argument that the physics aren't realistic maybe. That a battlecruiser should take longer to slow down than it does, for example. But it's the 26th century and technology is looking pretty good.
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On April 28 2010 05:39 johnnybrav0 wrote:
I really understand both sides of this argument.
I also agree that the OP is condescending, and I'm actually somewhat appalled by the utter hatred going on of Blizzard in this thread, and the people saying they don't listen. From my experience, Blizzard and Valve are pretty much the only two companies that really try to take the extra effort to make their game as good as possible, as well as listen to the fans and continually patch the game years after release (I'm not 100% on this- but didn't Blizzard just RECENTLY patch Diablo II?) There is no doubt that Blizzard is in it to make cash, but their philosophy is to make money by keeping its fans satisfied, which isn't a bad company standpoint if you ask me.
StarCraft II is being developed to make money first, and to become a viable eSport second. Blizzard most definitely wants SC2 to become an eSport as successful as BW. I truly believe that StarCraft II has already made eSports more viable at least in the US, as you can already see the huge turnout on the streams for this beta.
I agree that watching Flash and Jaedong and other Korean pros pull off these maneuvers is nothing short of magical. And everyone keeps getting mad when people say, "this is SCII, not BW." Get mad if you want, but that really is a fact. Like it or not, SC2 is not being made to cater solely to the pros. Another fact is that when StarCraft was in beta or even when a pro scene was in its infancy, the gameplay was nowhere near the level it is at today (this has probably been stated like 400x in this thread- sorry for the repeat but once again this is a fact).
Some of you keep saying, "well SC didn't have a 12 year old game for basis." This is somewhat valid, but you cannot predict the level of play that will happen in this game in the near future, although I know you are just saying that these kind of micro opportunities simply don't and never will exist. Since beta began, strategies and tactics have already gotten very complex in comparison, and these strategies will only continue to grow. Who knows, some manipulation and "bugs" that make for this kind of gameplay may be discovered yet.
I highly doubt that Blizzard will add these features that are being asked for, for better or for worse. Unfortunately, this may leave many gamers that have posted in this thread in the dust. But SC2 will be a wildly successful and strategical game regardless. Flash and Jaedong and others may move on because you cannot pull off the kind of maneuvers specified in the OP, but other people like TLO and young Koreans will certainly become masters and pull off amazing feats in this game. As a spectator sport, SC2 has much to improve upon, but it will only get better over time. I already have a great deal of fun watching this game.
The fact is this: There has never been a sequel in the history of video games that hardcore fans of the original didn't complain about. Even Blizzard has acknowledged this. This also goes for movies, albums, books, etc. They will not satisfy all of you. It sucks but that's the way it is. Luckily for me, in almost all of these instances I have been able to accept the new gamplay elements for what they are and enjoy them:
Some examples:
BW-SC2
CS1.6-CS:S (heck even before that: CS 1.5-CS 1.6)
SSBM-SSBB
Goldeneye-Perfect Dark
Halo-Halo 2-Halo 3
Battlestar Galactica (original)-Battlestar Galactica (new)
Every sophomore album ever created by a band
The fact is, many veterans and longtime fans will feel personally offended or angry with changes made. In many of the games mentioned above where "bugs" were removed and engines improved, people complained that there is now a definied "skill ceiling," however in none of those games is there a point where there aren't players that stand above the rest by working within the framework of the game in a better way than everyone else out there.
tldr: I agree with both sides, but unfortunately for a lot of you, you probably will just have to move on. Veterans/longtime fans of ANYTHING will often find it hard to adapt/accept the changes (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's just a fact that some of you will have to face). SC2 will still be a viable eSport, although it remains to be seen how viable in comparison to BW.
QFT. Sensible neutral post.
Take SC2 for what it is or move on with your lives. It is just a game after all. Blizzard is a company. Money is the sole purpose behind their actions. So how do you make the most profit from a game that is based off something with such a high skill cap? You make things more mainstreamed, so the newbie WoW player can enjoy the game. By allowing the vast majority of "WoW" players to get sucked in, Blizzard will profit a ton more than adhering to the smaller percentage elitist crowd. For the newer generation WoW crowd SC2 is awesome. For the older hardcore fans SC2 is a let down.
I will admit I am biased. I only played SC1 off and on since like 2003 I think. Never too competitively either. I find SC2 quite fun to play and interesting to watch. From the looks of all these beta tourneys it seems like many others do as well. I mean we break livestream every major tournament lol. A little optimism never hurt anyone.
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On April 28 2010 06:16 omg.deus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be. That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1.
Then you adapt and play the game differently. This invisible skill cap only exists in your head. So you can't do something with your apm you used to be able to. Find something new to use it on or accept that there might be more important things now than being fast and reward other abilities.
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On April 28 2010 06:19 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 06:16 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be. That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1. Then you adapt and play the game differently. This invisible skill cap only exists in your head. So you can't do something with your apm you used to be able to. Find something new to use it on or accept that there might be more important things now than being fast and reward other abilities.
My apm was 200 in BW and 50 in SC2 and I am winning platinum games easily. Why would I want something more to do?! I have already done everything necessary so I'm just sitting in games bored cause I have 10x the speed necessary for this disgustingly easy game.
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On April 28 2010 06:22 omg.deus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 06:19 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On April 28 2010 06:16 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be. That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1. Then you adapt and play the game differently. This invisible skill cap only exists in your head. So you can't do something with your apm you used to be able to. Find something new to use it on or accept that there might be more important things now than being fast and reward other abilities. My apm is like nothing and I am winning platinum games easily. I'm not saying I want more to do...I have already done everything necessary so I'm just sitting here eating a sandwich and bored.
This isn't necessarily about the core game. It may be about the way the leagues are distributed (there definitely needs to be more variation and higher ceilings for better leagues, which I expect will come with time). It may also be about the tactics you use. Perhaps there are still balance issues in the game. I have yet to see anything that proves to me that APM doesn't matter and that skill doesn't differentiate players. Your anecdotes sounds more like bragging and less like proof.
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On April 28 2010 06:25 killias2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 06:22 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:19 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On April 28 2010 06:16 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be. That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1. Then you adapt and play the game differently. This invisible skill cap only exists in your head. So you can't do something with your apm you used to be able to. Find something new to use it on or accept that there might be more important things now than being fast and reward other abilities. My apm is like nothing and I am winning platinum games easily. I'm not saying I want more to do...I have already done everything necessary so I'm just sitting here eating a sandwich and bored. I have yet to see anything that proves to me that APM doesn't matter and that skill doesn't differentiate players. Your anecdotes sounds more like bragging and less like proof.
I'm not saying APM doesn't matter or that skill doesn't differentiate players...just not NEARLY enough.
You think I would brag over sc2 wins....
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On April 28 2010 05:25 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:23 Sfydjklm wrote:
people's expectation of SC2 is all wrong. People dont want a new game people just want a more popular version of SCBW.
The thing is you're all horrible nubies and horrible at micro. I'm not saying SC2 micro will ever be on a level of SCBW but i'm certain it will suffice. You're saying "Ooh i saw Julyzerg do that thang in SCBW and i tried to copy it in SC2 and it failed." There is your problem right there. You're too close minded and instead of trying to come up with how to micro better you try to apply somethign that is entirely not applicable to the game.
its like seeing soccer dribbling, thinking how awesome it is and attempting it in rugby.
Watching a rally race and attempting a handbrake hairpin turn in a formula car.
Instead of reminiscing about the past how about you focus on what you have at hand and try to do somethign with it.
No, the issue is that Starcraft 2 does not allow you to exert control over your actions as Brood War allowed, hence, no matter micro changes in SC2, it will always be objectively worse then in BW.
You, and everyone else in this thread are just ignorant.
How long did it take to come up with all the micro maneurs in SCBW? Years many years.
If you were there for SC1 you would be crying about how lurkers are imbalanced and totally destroy mnms with their splash dmg.
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I think the poster makes good points and I agree with some people here that he has a very bad attitude in conveying a fair point. Moving shot is an important factor and should be reimplemented, but keep in mind that dragoons, marines, and hydras did not have moving shot in SC1 and we all know how well these units can perform in the right hands against larger melee forces. The moving shot issue is more or less limited to air units, and the OP is right in that phoenix/banshee/muta/viking will be much better units if they all had moving shot, but ground unit wise I don't think it's game breaking. The only unit that desperately needs moving shot is hellion (after dmg nerf obv or it would be ridiculous), but then again I think hellion is a really poor unit concept to start with.
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On April 28 2010 06:26 omg.deus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 06:25 killias2 wrote:On April 28 2010 06:22 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:19 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On April 28 2010 06:16 omg.deus wrote:On April 28 2010 06:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be. That's not my argument at all. My argument is that there is a very low ceiling for speed and dexterity so you aren't rewarded at all for being fast. Imagine Football but nobody can weigh more than 200 pounds or run faster than a certain speed. That's exactly how I see SC2 in relation to SC1. Then you adapt and play the game differently. This invisible skill cap only exists in your head. So you can't do something with your apm you used to be able to. Find something new to use it on or accept that there might be more important things now than being fast and reward other abilities. My apm is like nothing and I am winning platinum games easily. I'm not saying I want more to do...I have already done everything necessary so I'm just sitting here eating a sandwich and bored. I have yet to see anything that proves to me that APM doesn't matter and that skill doesn't differentiate players. Your anecdotes sounds more like bragging and less like proof. I'm not saying APM doesn't matter or that skill doesn't differentiate players...just not NEARLY enough. You think I would brag over sc2 wins....
More than anything else, I don't think the BW and SC2 competitive scenes are even comparable right now. SC2 is new, so there hasn't been much chance for evolution. Also, many of the players are new and probably only take it somewhat seriously. In comparison, BW has been out for 12 years, and only the most hardcore players remain competitive. This might explain some of your difficulties. I mean, really, do you expect random people with maybe minor RTS experience to be able to deal adequately with someone with 12 years of experience playing the prequel? As indicated above, I think a lot of this depends on Blizzard changing up the leagues some, as, right now, it's far too easy to become plat.
Regardless, do you really think this supports your argument? You trounce the competition without trying. Shouldn't you be losing 50/50 or something because outcomes are determined by luck and/or throwing rock against scissors anyway? If anything, I think this is proof that SC2 does differentiate between better and worse players.. there just aren't enough good players in the beta and/or enough of a differentiation between plat and gold players, etc. Your winning record would apparently say more about your opponents than the game itself...
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reading this made me want to go back to playing sc bw. Sc2 lacks something t.t
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Personally, I feel people are picking holes for no apparent reason.
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On April 28 2010 06:17 Paperscraps wrote:
QFT. Sensible neutral post.
Take SC2 for what it is or move on with your lives. It is just a game after all. Blizzard is a company. Money is the sole purpose behind their actions. So how do you make the most profit from a game that is based off something with such a high skill cap? You make things more mainstreamed, so the newbie WoW player can enjoy the game. By allowing the vast majority of "WoW" players to get sucked in, Blizzard will profit a ton more than adhering to the smaller percentage elitist crowd. For the newer generation WoW crowd SC2 is awesome. For the older hardcore fans SC2 is a let down.
I will admit I am biased. I only played SC1 off and on since like 2003 I think. Never too competitively either. I find SC2 quite fun to play and interesting to watch. From the looks of all these beta tourneys it seems like many others do as well. I mean we break livestream every major tournament lol. A little optimism never hurt anyone.
Plz stop this argument. Blizzard isn't making a low skill cap to cater to casuals. They are making things like MBS because this is fucking 2010, not 1998, and outside of basic features such as that, SC2 is basically designed ground up to keep as many hard core fans as possible without intentionally imitating limitations in technology.
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On April 28 2010 05:39 johnnybrav0 wrote:
I really understand both sides of this argument.
I also agree that the OP is condescending, and I'm actually somewhat appalled by the utter hatred going on of Blizzard in this thread, and the people saying they don't listen. From my experience, Blizzard and Valve are pretty much the only two companies that really try to take the extra effort to make their game as good as possible, as well as listen to the fans and continually patch the game years after release (I'm not 100% on this- but didn't Blizzard just RECENTLY patch Diablo II?) There is no doubt that Blizzard is in it to make cash, but their philosophy is to make money by keeping its fans satisfied, which isn't a bad company standpoint if you ask me.
StarCraft II is being developed to make money first, and to become a viable eSport second. Blizzard most definitely wants SC2 to become an eSport as successful as BW. I truly believe that StarCraft II has already made eSports more viable at least in the US, as you can already see the huge turnout on the streams for this beta.
I agree that watching Flash and Jaedong and other Korean pros pull off these maneuvers is nothing short of magical. And everyone keeps getting mad when people say, "this is SCII, not BW." Get mad if you want, but that really is a fact. Like it or not, SC2 is not being made to cater solely to the pros. Another fact is that when StarCraft was in beta or even when a pro scene was in its infancy, the gameplay was nowhere near the level it is at today (this has probably been stated like 400x in this thread- sorry for the repeat but once again this is a fact).
Some of you keep saying, "well SC didn't have a 12 year old game for basis." This is somewhat valid, but you cannot predict the level of play that will happen in this game in the near future, although I know you are just saying that these kind of micro opportunities simply don't and never will exist. Since beta began, strategies and tactics have already gotten very complex in comparison, and these strategies will only continue to grow. Who knows, some manipulation and "bugs" that make for this kind of gameplay may be discovered yet.
I highly doubt that Blizzard will add these features that are being asked for, for better or for worse. Unfortunately, this may leave many gamers that have posted in this thread in the dust. But SC2 will be a wildly successful and strategical game regardless. Flash and Jaedong and others may move on because you cannot pull off the kind of maneuvers specified in the OP, but other people like TLO and young Koreans will certainly become masters and pull off amazing feats in this game. As a spectator sport, SC2 has much to improve upon, but it will only get better over time. I already have a great deal of fun watching this game.
The fact is this: There has never been a sequel in the history of video games that hardcore fans of the original didn't complain about. Even Blizzard has acknowledged this. This also goes for movies, albums, books, etc. They will not satisfy all of you. It sucks but that's the way it is. Luckily for me, in almost all of these instances I have been able to accept the new gamplay elements for what they are and enjoy them:
Some examples:
BW-SC2
CS1.6-CS:S (heck even before that: CS 1.5-CS 1.6)
SSBM-SSBB
Goldeneye-Perfect Dark
Halo-Halo 2-Halo 3
Battlestar Galactica (original)-Battlestar Galactica (new)
Every sophomore album ever created by a band
The fact is, many veterans and longtime fans will feel personally offended or angry with changes made. In many of the games mentioned above where "bugs" were removed and engines improved, people complained that there is now a definied "skill ceiling," however in none of those games is there a point where there aren't players that stand above the rest by working within the framework of the game in a better way than everyone else out there.
tldr: I agree with both sides, but unfortunately for a lot of you, you probably will just have to move on. Veterans/longtime fans of ANYTHING will often find it hard to adapt/accept the changes (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's just a fact that some of you will have to face). SC2 will still be a viable eSport, although it remains to be seen how viable in comparison to BW.
I agree with just about everything this guy said. Although I really wish moving shot is put into sc2. It is fun to control and raises the skill cap. I feel like its almost necessary they put it in, but im not upset that its not in right now either. Hopefully blizzard will listen to the fans. Just try not to be so bad mannered when asking for moving shot!
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On April 28 2010 06:41 CultureMisfits wrote:
reading this made me want to go back to playing sc bw. Sc2 lacks something t.t
Yes I feel so, too. After I started SC2 beta I also watched alot of broodwar stuff although I have nearly no experience with it and an incredibly low skill. But the shortcomes of SC2, this extreme tactic orientation, make me want to learn broodwar because Starcraft in general is great.
Right now I'm platinum with two accounts fairly easily but I'm not very motivated. I always tryed to use as much micro as possible, no matter which RTS I played so far (WC3/TFT, AoE2, AoM, AoE3, CnC3 and some more), in WC3 I ended up having 220 apm with 400 infight, actually usefully used often (Human), although I didn't get far as I lacked alot of tactical experience. Might be related to my gamining origins in CS 1.6 where I most likely had most skill so far.
Well so maybe I'll look out for some other newbs to practice BW in the next few days while I just keep hoping that Blizzard kicks CnC-Dustin and make SC2 a micro intensive game again.
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I only registered to TL to reply to this thread. I agree that the OP has a good point but however it doesn't seem that this is a limitation of the game engine at all. The Corsair-like behavior can very easily be accomplished with the Phoenix in SC2.
After messing around a little bit with the Phoenix properties and making it more similar to the Corsair in terms of instant splash damage as opposed to projectile single target damage I was able to emulate a very similar behavior between the two. I also messed around with the unit acceleration/deceleration, firing delay, and many other settings. It seemed like I had a Corsair in my hands, the only difference being that it looked like a Phoenix. lol
If it works with the editor it obviously means the engine is very capable of running it. The current Phoenix behavior (and other units) seems to be a design decision and not a programming limitation. I have to say however that I don't agree with that design decision. I see the possibility of people creating external leagues based on SC2 mods that make the game play more like SC and BW.
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Well so maybe I'll look out for some other newbs to practice BW in the next few days while I just keep hoping that Blizzard kicks CnC-Dustin and make SC2 a micro intensive game again.
They will never fire a developer because some of the community calls for it. The Blizzard community has tried before and the outcome did nothing. Sorry if you got your hopes up.
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EPT
