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On April 28 2010 05:29 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans. You're already quoted saying that the return of moving/gliding micro is something that many share. I don't see where I went wrong.
Many people having an opinion is not the same as every one or the majority having that opinion.
Go to an NRA convention. Ask people there whether hand guns should be banned. The opinion there will be almost universally against banning hand guns under any conditions. Exactly what you'd expect from people who join an organization that revolves around the joy and right to own firearms. So could definitely say that many people think hand guns should never be banned.
Now go to a PTA meeting for a school in a high crime area of Chicago and ask the same question. You'll get a totally different outcome. Concerned parents in an area where hand guns kill people all the time are understandably going to have a different view point. You could definitely say that many people think hand guns SHOULD be banned.
Now which viewpoint is right? I have an opinion that I'm not going to share, and maybe you have one too, but ultimately it isn't about what "many" people think, because "many" people think hand guns should be banned and many people think hand guns should be legal every where, and many people have beliefs that are shades of grey.
So you can't say "many people agree, therefore it must be done."
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you do have to understand that the beta right now is 99% bad players. When millions are playing we'll see how easy it is to get platinum.
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EDIT: No. I am not trolling. Sorry for those who read this post before this edit.
I simply didn't read wintermute's "many =/= majority" and I admit that it's a wrong on my part.
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On April 28 2010 05:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum..
seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division
Key point is that anyone still playing on iccup after the game has been out for a decade is presumably at least somewhat interesting in playing it well. They're clearly going to be better than all the WoW players in the beta who haven't touched an RTS in years, if ever. Hence, it makes sense that even a D+ player on iccup tends to get placed in the higher divisions in SC2 - they need to leave the copper and bronze division to hold the *complete* scrubs, so people with prior competitive RTS experience (even low-end iccup) presumably *start* in Silver and can easily be higher.
That doesn't mean, however, that the game is fundamentally "easier to be good at". The skill difference between the top platinum players and a medium gold player is still quite large - I will never beat Nony or Idra or any of the high-end players in SC2 any more than I would in SC1. The fact that we're both in the platinum division doesn't mean there isn't still a large skill difference.
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On April 28 2010 05:51 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:48 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:29 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans. You're already quoted saying that the return of moving/gliding micro is something that many share. I don't see where I went wrong. Many people having an opinion is not the same as every one or the majority having that opinion. Go to an NRA convention. Ask people there whether hand guns should be banned. The opinion there will be almost universally against banning hand guns under any conditions. Exactly what you'd expect from people who join an organization that revolves around the joy and right to own firearms. Now go to a PTA meeting for a school in a high crime area and ask the same question. You'll get a totally different outcome. Concerned parents in an area where hand guns kill people all the time are understandably going to have a different view point. Now which viewpoint is right? I have an opinion that I'm not going to share, and maybe you have one too, but ultimately it isn't about what "many" people think, because "many" people think hand guns should be banned and many people think hand guns should be legal every where, and many people have beliefs that are shades of grey. So you can't say "many people agree, therefore it must be done." LOL. You said it yourself that it's an opinion that many share. Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 04:59 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 04:57 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 04:55 Wintermute wrote:
Most of the complaints ultimately come down to "SC2 doesn't have this specific quirk that SCBW had" or "SC2 has this specific quirk that SCBW didn't have" which is fine to complain about, but doesn't prove that SC2 is inferior or failed. SC2 is already inferior by lacking moving/gliding shot. An opinion that many share, but ultimately just an opinion. I don't think you read his post. He said "many" =/= "majority".
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On April 28 2010 05:51 lolaloc wrote:
LOL. You said it yourself that it's an opinion that many share.
Did you even read the post you're quoting?
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The phrase " opinion that many share" is weasel words trying to enforce your own personal point of view, unless backed up with statistics through a fair, unbiased poll with a large sample size.
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On April 28 2010 05:52 Steve496 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum..
seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division That doesn't mean, however, that the game is fundamentally "easier to be good at". The skill difference between the top platinum players and a medium gold player is still quite large - I will never beat Nony or Idra or any of the high-end players in SC2 any more than I would in SC1. The fact that we're both in the platinum division doesn't mean there isn't still a large skill difference.
People should stop comparing leagues and iccup ranking... The platinum league basically contains players who had decent RTS experience.
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On April 28 2010 05:52 Steve496 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum..
seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division Key point is that anyone still playing on iccup after the game has been out for a decade is presumably at least somewhat interesting in playing it well. They're clearly going to be better than all the WoW players in the beta who haven't touched an RTS in years, if ever. Hence, it makes sense that even a D+ player on iccup tends to get placed in the higher divisions in SC2 - they need to leave the copper and bronze division to hold the *complete* scrubs, so people with prior competitive RTS experience (even low-end iccup) presumably *start* in Silver and can easily be higher. That doesn't mean, however, that the game is fundamentally "easier to be good at". The skill difference between the top platinum players and a medium gold player is still quite large - I will never beat Nony or Idra or any of the high-end players in SC2 any more than I would in SC1. The fact that we're both in the platinum division doesn't mean there isn't still a large skill difference.
As stupid as this may sound, and as arrogant as this may sound, I think the majority of D-C level players have a pretty good chance of taking games off nony and idra right now. And it's not because the PLAYERS are bad, it's because the GAME is bad. having flawless macro in sc2 really isnt that hard. And there is such little micro in the game, that with your left over apm from macro, you can do a pretty decent job.
EDIT: oh and it's not that big a skill difference between gold and plat. or plat and high plat. The difference is like 1000 iccup points. Compared to BW where D to A+ was like 13,000 points. And then from there to top pro level was another huge jump.
On April 28 2010 05:46 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On April 28 2010 05:36 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW
Please somebody tell me otherwise Morphing units from Larva is more difficult in SC2 than BW. your right, I concede. Selecting individual workers in SC2 is a hell of a lot harder than in broodwar too damn thats some gosu skill right here. Look at jaedong perfectly select his worker to go morph something! hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum.. seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division I would like to correct myself. They're NOT comparable. 4szzzzzzzz[...] is entirely different from 4sz5sz6sz7sz8sz9sz0sz.
ah, I thought you meant it was harder cuz the hotkeys don't make sense anymore. I cant believe how many times i pressed 5so and just sat there waiting for my supply to go up..
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On April 28 2010 05:49 ShaperofDreams wrote:
you do have to understand that the beta right now is 99% bad players. When millions are playing we'll see how easy it is to get platinum.
it will be even easier
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Somehow the videos aren't working for me. Does that problem happen to other people?
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On April 28 2010 05:51 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:48 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:29 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans. You're already quoted saying that the return of moving/gliding micro is something that many share. I don't see where I went wrong. Many people having an opinion is not the same as every one or the majority having that opinion. Go to an NRA convention. Ask people there whether hand guns should be banned. The opinion there will be almost universally against banning hand guns under any conditions. Exactly what you'd expect from people who join an organization that revolves around the joy and right to own firearms. Now go to a PTA meeting for a school in a high crime area and ask the same question. You'll get a totally different outcome. Concerned parents in an area where hand guns kill people all the time are understandably going to have a different view point. Now which viewpoint is right? I have an opinion that I'm not going to share, and maybe you have one too, but ultimately it isn't about what "many" people think, because "many" people think hand guns should be banned and many people think hand guns should be legal every where, and many people have beliefs that are shades of grey. So you can't say "many people agree, therefore it must be done." LOL. You said it yourself that it's an opinion that many share. Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 04:59 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 04:57 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 04:55 Wintermute wrote:
Most of the complaints ultimately come down to "SC2 doesn't have this specific quirk that SCBW had" or "SC2 has this specific quirk that SCBW didn't have" which is fine to complain about, but doesn't prove that SC2 is inferior or failed. SC2 is already inferior by lacking moving/gliding shot. An opinion that many share, but ultimately just an opinion.
Your'e misunderstanding his point.
" Now which viewpoint is right? I have an opinion that I'm not going to share, and maybe you have one too, but ultimately it isn't about what "many" people think, because "many" people think hand guns should be banned and many people think hand guns should be legal every where, and many people have beliefs that are shades of grey."
Both opinions are equally wrong/right since they are both shared by many.
About the article:
I found it too personal and rough in it's description. The point is definitely valid and personally I agree with pretty much everything you mentioned.
But I wonder if it wouldn't have been better recieved by Blizzard if it was more professionally written, not as as personal. Well the point has been made, hopefully Blizzard can find a way of implementing in the game without scaring of the newer players which probably is more important than the elitist ones( most of us on TL) in quantity.
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Lolaloc, stop trolling wtf is wrong with you
ont;
Pretty nice write up. That is one of the problems.. another problem is that its so easy to just group everything into same group(im a P player), especially with Protoss. Altho i always have my ranged units on 1, zealots on two and spells on 3, the top players just put everything in one group, and its frightetning to see how good it works..
this game is just make 1-2 groups and A-move throughout the game. learn how to cast the basic spells close to perfect(another problem, so easy to do game-changing spells.. especially with P. im talking about Force shields mostly). in BW making good spells(storms mostly) was rly hard cause your army position was a big impact to this too. in this game by the time you have casted the storms battle is almost done. Its like a big clash where you just pray for the best..
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On April 28 2010 04:57 lolaloc wrote:
SC2 is already inferior by lacking moving/gliding shot.
Gliding shot was a glitch in BW that ended up being incorporated. This post just seems like a troll to me, because it is completely unfair.
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If this were facebook, I'd click the "like" button. Where's the props button? I dont play SC2 because I don't have a key, however from a spectator standpoint, micro is lackluster compaired to sc2. The trick is not REALLY how you USE your units, but how many of them you have. Of course units require micro to do well, but pulling back injured units kind of seems like a waste of time and gets them killed faster. It appears that the issue for the losing player is not how he is microing his units, or his army composition, but how hard he is macro ing,
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Inability to micro touches upon the real reason that SC2 will fail competitively: in SC1 you could never be close to mechanically good enough to have perfect micro/macro whereas in SC2 most retarded children are even able to micro/macro at a decent level.
Having an infinite ceiling for rewarding speed and dexterity creates a rich, competitive game. Knowing that Lurker/Swarm owns M&M barely helps because it takes a tremendous amount of skill to perform it. Anytime I see a strategy or build in SC2 I can replicate it perfectly every time and if I can....that means so can a shitload of other people.
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"Football is harder than rugby."
That's the equivalent of most of these arguments in this thread. 2 different games that have some similarities. Quite frankly, the sooner people stop talking about SC:BW in relation to SC2 the better off we'll all be.
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Do players in SC:BW started muta-microing like Jaedong from the very first day?!
SC:BW:
Noob - played The Hunters with their noob friends.
Pro - played hours of BW every day, year after year.
SC2:
Noob - played hour a day for a month
Pro - played several hours a day for a month
Give the pro scene some time, and it's gonna make you "WOW" too, although in different manner, since SC2 is a different game. Simple as that. Or if you just feel SC2 is not your kind of game, just go play/watch BW. And this whole moving-while-attacking thingie is cool, but it will not make-or-break the game...
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Good write up - Don't like the tone at times ... But amazing data
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Hm. Incredibly interesting. I was never good enough to do micro beyond surrounding and setting up attack angles before A-moving, and the occassional unit sniping. But this seems like a big deal for better players. However, I think it may be possible for SC2 to survive a flaw like this and still be competitive. The question is, how many flaws like this are there? Enough to kill the game? And also, is there anything new in StarCraft 2 that wasn't in BroodWar, to give the game added depth? I'm guessing none of the stuff in the OP was really discovered during the first two months.
I guess it's true for any game (board games and regular sports included) that it will become more competitive and complex the laxer the rules are. SC2 "rules" may be too strict, forcing it to become a simple numbers game where we will see the same two armies clash over and over until the game dies. But right now I'm not concerned, as it's still a somewhat varied experience for me.
I'd be interested to hear about any examples of (these kinds of) mechanics not in BroodWar that makes SC2 more interesting. Sadly, I can't think of any right now, except maybe the worker auto-targeting.
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EPT
