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people's expectation of SC2 is all wrong. People dont want a new game people just want a more popular version of SCBW.
The thing is you're all horrible nubies and horrible at micro. I'm not saying SC2 micro will ever be on a level of SCBW but i'm certain it will suffice. You're saying "Ooh i saw Julyzerg do that thang in SCBW and i tried to copy it in SC2 and it failed." There is your problem right there. You're too close minded and instead of trying to come up with how to micro better you try to apply somethign that is entirely not applicable to the game.
its like seeing soccer dribbling, thinking how awesome it is and attempting it in rugby.
Watching a rally race and attempting a handbrake hairpin turn in a formula car.
Instead of reminiscing about the past how about you focus on what you have at hand and try to do somethign with it.
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On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established?
You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter.
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On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established?
Comparing slavery of other humans to a mechanic that allowed people to prove they were better at a video game than other people. Cool analogy, bro. Keep it up.
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On April 28 2010 04:59 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 04:57 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 04:55 Wintermute wrote:
Most of the complaints ultimately come down to "SC2 doesn't have this specific quirk that SCBW had" or "SC2 has this specific quirk that SCBW didn't have" which is fine to complain about, but doesn't prove that SC2 is inferior or failed. SC2 is already inferior by lacking moving/gliding shot. An opinion that many share, but ultimately just an opinion.
Lets look at the issue in a vacuum.
Skill requires control
Moving shot is a expression of control
Starcraft 2 lacks moving shot
Therefor
Starcraft 2 has less control
Therefor
Starcraft 2 has requires less skill.
Now, this is an insular example. It is undebatable that by removing Moving shot, SC2 has lowered skill in a specific area. The argument is does consider if it added enough enough new factors or will new factors arise to make up for this removal. That is the argument. Currently, it does not, and due to the fact that there are not enough ways to manipulate the game environment, not enough new methods will arise to compensate.
On April 28 2010 05:23 Sfydjklm wrote:
people's expectation of SC2 is all wrong. People dont want a new game people just want a more popular version of SCBW.
The thing is you're all horrible nubies and horrible at micro. I'm not saying SC2 micro will ever be on a level of SCBW but i'm certain it will suffice. You're saying "Ooh i saw Julyzerg do that thang in SCBW and i tried to copy it in SC2 and it failed." There is your problem right there. You're too close minded and instead of trying to come up with how to micro better you try to apply somethign that is entirely not applicable to the game.
its like seeing soccer dribbling, thinking how awesome it is and attempting it in rugby.
Watching a rally race and attempting a handbrake hairpin turn in a formula car.
Instead of reminiscing about the past how about you focus on what you have at hand and try to do somethign with it.
No, the issue is that Starcraft 2 does not allow you to exert control over your actions as Brood War allowed, hence, no matter micro changes in SC2, it will always be objectively worse then in BW.
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On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter.
TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans.
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On April 28 2010 05:25 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? Comparing slavery of other humans to a mechanic that allowed people to prove they were better at a video game than other people. Cool analogy, bro. Keep it up.
Totally misunderstanding an obvious point. Cool learning disability, bro.
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On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans.
For Starcraft? Yes they are.
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I'm going to put this as simply as possible for you guys. If the hellion were able to shoot and move like a vulture from sc1, it would be WAY too powerful especially against melee units. In SC:BW the unit pathing made this balanced because one wrong slip up and your vultures would get hit.
Hellions are fine the way they are, giving them the ability to shoot and move would make an incredibly overpowered unit that would break the game due to perfect unit pathing.
That being said, air units could stand to use a little more momentum in their shot. I mean air units should THRIVE off of being able to shoot and move, it only makes sense realistically and strategically.
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On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans.
That's absolutely fantastic. The amount of irrelevant points being brought to this discussion is mind boggling.
Now, explain to me the correlation between the implementation of moving shot and how it will detract from the games Mass Appeal.
TL-net provides the greatest concentration of written feedback in the west that matters on how the game should be played at a competitive level. This issue will not significantly effect how fun the game is for anyone except competitive players. Tell me, why would you oppose moving shot as a non-competitive player?
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On April 28 2010 05:26 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:24 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:22 Wintermute wrote:On April 28 2010 05:15 Squeegy wrote:
Case closed. Blizzard must implement moving/gliding shot micro now!
. A lot of people have the opinion that the confederacy was awesome. Therefore the US government should immediately recognize the independence of the original confederate states, and slavery should be re established? You do realize that I am applying that logic for testing a game and general feedback should matter. TL.net is not the only source of feedback that matters in the world. People who are currently hardcore SCBW players are not the only valid RTS fans.
You're already quoted saying that the return of moving/gliding micro is something that many share. I don't see where I went wrong.
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On April 28 2010 05:29 Half wrote:
Now, explain to me the correlation between the implementation of moving shot and how it will detract from the games Mass Appeal.
SC1
- Moving/Gliding Shot is present
- spawned ESPORT
They are correlated by a small rate (I forgot my statistics lol)
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While the OP is fantastic, this thread has sunk to beyond garbage level
Posters such as:
Fallen
Wintermute
killias2
Should stop posting in the thread. This is not a "show your ignorance thread" Go do that somewhere else.
Somebody please explain how there is a difficult amount of micro in SC2
- Chronoboosting takes the same amount of clicks as manual mining
- macro in BW is MUCH more difficult than in SC2
- Unit composition is equally important
- scouting is equally important, but more apm intensive in BW, thus more difficult
- Highground mattered a LOT more in broodwar
- Army composition was MORE varied in broodwar
- Due to lack of infinite selection, flanking and position was more difficult in BW
- "kiting" micro existed in both games. However kiting in BW is more difficult (dont even challenge this one)
- For people who are saying "SC2 is more strategically oriented" no its not. BW is just as strategical if not more so, while on TOP of that, requiring huge multitask ability
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW
Please somebody tell me otherwise
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On April 28 2010 05:23 nurle wrote:
This is just so insanely nice written. And i agree with u on every single part, especially the pro scene thing. Why would jaedong switch over to sc2 if there will be maybe 10% skill difference between the best and the worst player in the world.
Because SCBW will hemorrhage all it's players/spectators due to SC2. If everyone is playing SC2 they'll want to watch games of SC2. Companies will want to sponsor the newer more popular game and not care about the old. The ONLY thing that will keep all those Korean Pros on SCBW are their team contracts and KESPA if it refuses to move over.
SC2 can suck the biggest donkey d*ck on the planet and if companies are throwing money at it people will play it to earn that money. In the end it will be about the money. Sad but true.
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On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW
Please somebody tell me otherwise
Morphing units from Larva is more difficult in SC2 than BW.
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On April 28 2010 04:50 Scapalexis wrote:Show nested quote +
Better players will win over those that are not as skilled, be it SC2, SC or WC3. Maybe the skillset needed is defined differently now, but I still think people should give the game some time until they start bashing it.
The problem with this attitude is the question: at what point does the community say, "Okay, we've given them enough time, it's not working"? After 3 months of beta? After beta is finished? After release? After 3 content patches? After first expansion, second expansion, 12 years? That makes no sense. I see many people that claim that the game will change as "new micro tactics" are found, or that the community will develop new strategies. Problem with this theory is that, the community has shown extensively that we easily find the most abusable and effective strategies extremely fast. Witness: the overpowered mothership, where within the first week of beta, a mothership rush can already win the game. Or the four warpgate strategy in pvp, which Blizzard described as something they had not expected at all. The scv - marine all in, which was nigh-undefendable beyond forge cannon play. One rax marauder expansion. Mass roach zvz. 4 warpgate pvt. The list goes on and on, and Blizzard failed to see any of these tactics emerge in their internal testing. In this day and age, the community is light years beyond what the original Broodwar beta community showed. For those who say, "have faith in Blizzard, it's their game," why should we have that stance? Historically, Blizzard lucked out on Broodwar, and failed miserably at any semblance of balance in WC3. For the entirety of Rain of Chaos, there was exactly one effective strategy per race: tri-sanctum casters for human, tri-lodge casters for orc, tri-crypt ghoul for undead, tri-lore for night elf. Blizzard threw several content patches to try to fight this, but nothing they did worked. Instead, they introduced more imbalances such as ancient of war massing. One international event, ESWC (correct me if I'm wrong), saw professional players of every race switch to night elf just to mass AOWs, simply because it was a strategy that was incredibly hard to battle with conventional means. In their expansion, Blizzard introduced slightly more diversity. Still, the majority of a conventional human army was casters, orcs used blademaster/raider + support, night elves kept building ancient of lores, and undead added destroyers, and switched to crypt fiends. If you followed the scene at all, you would realize how quickly these strategies were developed, and how little they changed over the years. Please, stop saying "give the game 12 years like Broodwar". We, as a community, should be targetting what we feel to be fundamental problems within the game, and trying to change them while we still have the chance.
There is a huge difference between finding effective strategies, and finding quirks in the engine that allow to abuse. One is a natural part of the game, and the other is something that arises from months or even years of experimentation and lucky accidents.
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On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:While the OP is fantastic, this thread has sunk to beyond garbage level Posters such as: Fallen Wintermute killias2 Should stop posting in the thread. This is not a "show your ignorance thread" Go do that somewhere else. Somebody please explain how there is a difficult amount of micro in SC2 - Chronoboosting takes the same amount of clicks as manual mining
- macro in BW is MUCH more difficult than in SC2
- Unit composition is equally important
- scouting is equally important, but more apm intensive in BW, thus more difficult
- Highground mattered a LOT more in broodwar
- Army composition was MORE varied in broodwar
- Due to lack of infinite selection, flanking and position was more difficult in BW
- "kiting" micro existed in both games. However kiting in BW is more difficult (dont even challenge this one)
- For people who are saying "SC2 is more strategically oriented" no its not. BW is just as strategical if not more so, while on TOP of that, requiring huge multitask ability
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW Please somebody tell me otherwise
Ding.
I don't get the people rebutting the OP, by simply stating, yeah SC2 micro is worse than SC:BW BUTTT it requires more strategical thinking!!! Without providing any valid information pertaining to why SC2 is anymore strategic than SCBW
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On April 28 2010 05:37 PanzerDragoon wrote:
something that arises from months or even years of experimentation and lucky accidents.
If you found a rare item, will you keep it or throw it away? In this case, moving/gliding shot is that rare item. Let's not throw it away shall we?
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I really understand both sides of this argument.
I also agree that the OP is condescending, and I'm actually somewhat appalled by the utter hatred going on of Blizzard in this thread, and the people saying they don't listen. From my experience, Blizzard and Valve are pretty much the only two companies that really try to take the extra effort to make their game as good as possible, as well as listen to the fans and continually patch the game years after release (I'm not 100% on this- but didn't Blizzard just RECENTLY patch Diablo II?) There is no doubt that Blizzard is in it to make cash, but their philosophy is to make money by keeping its fans satisfied, which isn't a bad company standpoint if you ask me.
StarCraft II is being developed to make money first, and to become a viable eSport second. Blizzard most definitely wants SC2 to become an eSport as successful as BW. I truly believe that StarCraft II has already made eSports more viable at least in the US, as you can already see the huge turnout on the streams for this beta.
I agree that watching Flash and Jaedong and other Korean pros pull off these maneuvers is nothing short of magical. And everyone keeps getting mad when people say, "this is SCII, not BW." Get mad if you want, but that really is a fact. Like it or not, SC2 is not being made to cater solely to the pros. Another fact is that when StarCraft was in beta or even when a pro scene was in its infancy, the gameplay was nowhere near the level it is at today (this has probably been stated like 400x in this thread- sorry for the repeat but once again this is a fact).
Some of you keep saying, "well SC didn't have a 12 year old game for basis." This is somewhat valid, but you cannot predict the level of play that will happen in this game in the near future, although I know you are just saying that these kind of micro opportunities simply don't and never will exist. Since beta began, strategies and tactics have already gotten very complex in comparison, and these strategies will only continue to grow. Who knows, some manipulation and "bugs" that make for this kind of gameplay may be discovered yet.
I highly doubt that Blizzard will add these features that are being asked for, for better or for worse. Unfortunately, this may leave many gamers that have posted in this thread in the dust. But SC2 will be a wildly successful and strategical game regardless. Flash and Jaedong and others may move on because you cannot pull off the kind of maneuvers specified in the OP, but other people like TLO and young Koreans will certainly become masters and pull off amazing feats in this game. As a spectator sport, SC2 has much to improve upon, but it will only get better over time. I already have a great deal of fun watching this game.
The fact is this: There has never been a sequel in the history of video games that hardcore fans of the original didn't complain about. Even Blizzard has acknowledged this. This also goes for movies, albums, books, etc. They will not satisfy all of you. It sucks but that's the way it is. Luckily for me, in almost all of these instances I have been able to accept the new gamplay elements for what they are and enjoy them:
Some examples:
BW-SC2
CS1.6-CS:S (heck even before that: CS 1.5-CS 1.6)
SSBM-SSBB
Goldeneye-Perfect Dark
Halo-Halo 2-Halo 3
Battlestar Galactica (original)-Battlestar Galactica (new)
Every sophomore album ever created by a band
The fact is, many veterans and longtime fans will feel personally offended or angry with changes made. In many of the games mentioned above where "bugs" were removed and engines improved, people complained that there is now a definied "skill ceiling," however in none of those games is there a point where there aren't players that stand above the rest by working within the framework of the game in a better way than everyone else out there.
tldr: I agree with both sides, but unfortunately for a lot of you, you probably will just have to move on. Veterans/longtime fans of ANYTHING will often find it hard to adapt/accept the changes (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's just a fact that some of you will have to face). SC2 will still be a viable eSport, although it remains to be seen how viable in comparison to BW.
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On April 28 2010 05:36 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW
Please somebody tell me otherwise Morphing units from Larva is more difficult in SC2 than BW.
your right, I concede.
Selecting individual workers in SC2 is a hell of a lot harder than in broodwar too
damn thats some gosu skill right here. Look at jaedong perfectly select his worker to go morph something!
hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum..
seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division
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On April 28 2010 05:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 05:36 lolaloc wrote:On April 28 2010 05:33 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
No honestly, I can't think of a single area where sc2 comes remotely close to the difficulty of BW
Please somebody tell me otherwise Morphing units from Larva is more difficult in SC2 than BW. your right, I concede. Selecting individual workers in SC2 is a hell of a lot harder than in broodwar too damn thats some gosu skill right here. Look at jaedong perfectly select his worker to go morph something! hmm.. I guess sucking is really hard in sc2 too. D- = Gold, D/D+ = platinum.. seriously, I have friends who would be lucky to get over 700 in iccup and they easily stay gold division
I would like to correct myself. They're NOT comparable.
4szzzzzzzz[...] is entirely different from 4sz5sz6sz7sz8sz9sz0sz.
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EPT
