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(1) the bar indicating the procedure of larva spawn now goes from left to right.
(2) it adds another bar for hatch/lair/hive upgrate. In the previous version it just replaces the larva spawn bar.
(3) press "select larva" in hatch/lair/hive now select all the zerg eggs if there is no larva.
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs.
(5) most sad: I dont give a shit to the stupid warpgates. Why I have to change all my zerg important hotkeys (burrow, spawn larva, parasite, etc) just for a protoss hotkey that I may never use? (I have to parasite a probe and build a lot of stuff to use the hotkey.) I know I can set them back by hand, but i just dont see why we zerg should make this sacrafice.
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On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(5) most sad: I dont give a shit to the stupid warpgates. Why I have to change all my zerg important hotkeys (burrow, spawn larva, parasite, etc) just for a protoss hotkey that I may never use? (I have to parasite a probe and build a lot of stuff to use the hotkey.) I know I can set them back by hand, but i just dont see why we zerg should make this sacrafice.
I think it's because of a zerg specific conflict and not because of warpgates
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i don't think you can set it back by hand.... i didn't see the options to change those types of key, although you can use the grid but that changes everything.
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#4 is a retarded change in my opinion. It basically makes it so zerg can macro up as many drones and crap as they want non-stop and never have to worry about anything because they can instantly switch it back.
I'm a zerg player, I hate this change.
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wow thats awesome! the stupid spawn larvae bar that i couldnt see because i was doing something with hatchery was so so annoying.
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On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs.
Oh shit that is hot!
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(4)... fake production of 6 zerglings? =| not cool.
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On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot!
That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units...
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"(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs."
Awesome LOL ->> for some reason I pressed so many times S+VVVV instead of S+HHHH when I saw my opponent heading to my base. This really made me rage quit.
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On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units...
Yep.
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#5 zerg moves alot slower on larva and outside of it
#6 can't queen spam outside of base anymore
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Wow the cancel larvae change is retarded...
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#7 zerg buildings now bleed
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ROFL does Blizzard know ANYTHING about Zerg larva management? Ridiculous change here if it's even true.
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On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units...
No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time.
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Btw I'll love this thread -> all zergs agreeing with getting larvae back when you cancel a unit, while P and T hating it.
It's the same as the thread where this was posted: "Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel" -> all terrans loving it and zergs hating it.
Now let me say what you kept saying there (and made me rage): Deal with it!
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On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time.
Yes it will, have you never played zerg before?
With the queen larvae mechanic you'll very often have 4+ eggs morphing at a time PER HATCHERY. If those are all pumping drones and you see your opponent start to move out (let's say you're on 2 hatch for example), you can cancel them all and immediately have 8+ roaches/etc being produced.
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether.
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On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time.
Are you joking? Definitely will. So you have seven drones making.. rather than waiting for more larvae you can instantly cancel the drones and make units. Sick nasty. I can't believe this wasn't listed in the patch notes if it's true.. makes me think Blizzard feels it will have no impact on the game.
Edit: Oh hi orb, you beat me to it
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It is true. I saw it in the xml files. There was a larvae destroy flag for two events, when morph completes and when it is canceled. But the cancel one was deleted, so now you don't lose larvae. That's a huge upgrade assuming it is easy to cancel eggs, which I'm unsure of because I almost never do it.
I'm a zerg and even i think that may be a bit imbalanced. There are tons of times when I'm making a long making units like say mutas or corruptors and suddenly realize that my situation has changed. Now I won't have to live with the consequences.
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On April 23 2010 10:07 cyclone25 wrote:
Btw I'll love this thread -> all zergs agreeing with getting larvae back when you cancel a unit, while P and T hating it.
It's the same as the thread where this was posted: "Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel" -> all terrans loving it and zergs hating it.
Personally I think this free cancellation will one day be replaced by either the original way - you lose the larva, or cost 1/4 of the resources. Now it does not make much sense even logically.
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On April 23 2010 10:04 -orb- wrote:
Wow the cancel larvae change is retarded...
I can't believe I agree with you for once, but I do.
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On April 23 2010 10:04 -orb- wrote:
Wow the cancel larvae change is retarded...
QFT
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The reason why it will help is a lot of the time, spawn larvae happens at multiple hatcheries all at once, and then bam 8 or 9 drones in a single shot. If the protoss moves out right at that exact moment, you're screwed. You'll have like maybe 2 to 4 larvae max by the time he gets to your base. But if you can cancel those drones, you will have 16 to 20 more zerglings out than you would have.
Also this means that if I'm unsure if I need zerglings, I can just build them and I have roughly 25 seconds to scout before it is too late to cancel them and make drones.
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i tested it myself queen mechanic is gone oh and if you have a hatchery and a hive you cant select them all tgoather lol really lame
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Definitely agree with orb, but in a bit more mannered way... as he seems to think people are coming at him like they want to fight him.
A huge part of Zerg econ had to do deal with juggling drones and units, and now that it isn't a big deal to just cancel a drone to make a unit is pretty sad. Not to mention in zvz, there is hardly ANY regret to droning up right b4 u would see 6 lings come to your base.. if you see 6 leaving his base, u just cancel a pop 6 lings up..
It really is going to be easy mode for zerg to fend any early game aggression off now it seems, given they weren't excessively teching or something.
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On April 23 2010 10:07 cyclone25 wrote:
Btw I'll love this thread -> all zergs agreeing with getting larvae back when you cancel a unit, while P and T hating it.
It's the same as the thread where this was posted: "Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel" -> all terrans loving it and zergs hating it.
Now let me say what you kept saying there (and made me rage): Deal with it!
Except the 4th reply in this thread, which is the only reply that actually stated what their race was, was a zerg calling the change bull... ^^; do you even read these things or do you just go into auto-troll?
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I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 23 2010 10:10 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg and even i think that may be a bit imbalanced. There are tons of times when I'm making a long making units like say mutas or corruptors and suddenly realize that my situation has changed. Now I won't have to live with the consequences.
Agreed, Thinking back to Day9's economy of larva article, I think that was an important characteristic and part of the decision making process for Zerg.
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On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else.
I am zerg and I don't like it too.
I think it is the same thing for the protoss warping: you can decide what to make till right before the units coming out.
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On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else.
Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now.
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Throwing my hat in as a Zerg player who does not like free larvae cancels, if for no other reason than it's just another excuse for people to complain that Zerg is easy. It was an important decision-making aspect, and Larvae had to be treated like a currency in the same way creep had to be treated like a currency.
That being said, I very rarely encounter a situation where I wish I could cancel an egg and get a larvae back. It won't affect my play.
Orb, as a protoss player, you get to dictate what the Zerg must be producing anyway with your Immortal timing pushes (albeit a few seconds slower now). I wouldn't be too concerned.
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On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now.
Well MAYBE because you can't just turn all of those units into workers and have an unstoppable economy????
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On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now.
Sort of, except that zerg also gets the choice of producing drones from all of those "barracks/gates". It'd be perfectly fair if terran/protoss could do that (not saying I'd ever want to see that). People find it unfair because it gives zerg the choice of making 10 drones or 10 hydra without any consequence of changing their mind. All terran can do is decide whether he wants 10 marines or 10 marauders, which I agree is still a powerful choice, but not nearly as powerful as being allowed to make 10 workers. Because that eventually leads to an insane economy and hence a huge unit count.
Zerg is all about droning up hard and pushing the limit of still being "safe" against an attack. I think this change takes alot of the risk of producing too many drones out of the game. That being said it's true that if you produce nothing but drones the extra 10 Hydra you may get from this change won't make a huge difference. But they certainly can. 10 Hydras are alot.
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On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now.
Please stop. If you are completely clueless don't randomly throw in your opinion.
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On April 23 2010 10:28 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now. Well MAYBE because you can't just turn all of those units into workers and have an unstoppable economy????
Why are you saying it like a zerg produces drones out of 10+ larvae?? It's 3-5 larvae for a good zerg who knows to keep his money low. This is just as much as the number of your production buildings. Also you use a different building to produce proves/scvs. Stop exaggerating ...
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The egg change might just be a bug, if not this just makes Zerg feel less unique.  
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Yeah, that's fairly op.
But, as zerg, I'll have a field day until they fix it. 
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On April 23 2010 10:11 btlyger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:04 -orb- wrote:
Wow the cancel larvae change is retarded... QFT
It's been like that since day one, I don't know why you care about it now.
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On April 23 2010 10:30 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now. Sort of, except that zerg also gets the choice of producing drones from all of those "barracks/gates". It'd be perfectly fair if terran/protoss could do that (not saying I'd ever want to see that). People find it unfair because it gives zerg the choice of making 10 drones or 10 hydra without any consequence of changing their mind. All terran can do is decide whether he wants 10 marines or 10 marauders, which I agree is still a powerful choice, but not nearly as powerful as being allowed to make 10 workers. Because that eventually leads to an insane economy and hence a huge unit count. Zerg is all about droning up hard and pushing the limit of still being "safe" against an attack. I think this change takes alot of the risk of producing too many drones out of the game. That being said it's true that if you produce nothing but drones the extra 10 Hydra you may get from this change won't make a huge difference. But they certainly can. 10 Hydras are alot.
they are not the same. If you build 10 hydra, and you think they dont worth it, you can change it into 10 mutas, the meanwhile your hatches are making more larvas and more units. If t decided to cancel 10 marines and swith them into marauders, the time that costed are never back.
Its simple math. Now If a zerg cancels 10 units right before they are done and build some units else, by the time he should have 20 units, he has 20 units.
If a terran cancels 10 units right before they are done and build some units else, by the time he should have 20 units, he only have 10.
Let's think it opposite way:
In the original version, where cancellation = killing larvas.
If terran cancels 10 units right after they are ordered, then the time cost is nearly 0.
and Zerg cancels 10 units right after they are ordered, then the time cost is 10.
It seems that both version make some kind of unfairness.
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It is hard to explain, but if you though tech switches were bad before, now they're going to be a thing of legend. It'll be like, your observer sees the spire go up and a bunch of larvae making, oh crap I'd better put up turrets, and then you kill a changeling going through your base that saw your turrets going up, and then suddenly there's no mutas coming anymore, they've been made into roaches instead.
Or perhaps if I get supply blocked making hydras and I have larvae left over, I can cancel the hydras and make roaches instead to make better use of the supply I do have. Or if I make a bunch of drones and realize at the last second that I forgot to use the last larvae for overlord, and there's about to be a bunch of larvae popping, now I can cancel a drone and make an overlord instead with no penalty, thereby unblocking myself up to 15 seconds earlier.
I'm assuming there's no or little penalty. This will make being zerg really simple.
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i like the larva change... but i think it should have a resource cost associated with it... letting zerg get back their larva AND not waste any resources is a little too much... i predict they'll add a cancel cost soon.
being able to swap units and tech switch quickly is something that has always defined the zerg playstyle... this change makes sense and goes well with that style... but i agree it goes just a wee bit far... add a cost for cancelling and i think it'll be fine... honestly even without the cancel cost i don't think this will make hardly any noticeable difference... i guess there just weren't a lot of balance changes to be upset about so people are flipping out over little things because they don't know what else to do.
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I don't think we need so many threads talking about patch 9. There's already like 5-10 of them heh
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On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now.
the thing is that zerg already had the greatest ability to change tech and now it's even faster.
Personally I'll wait and see how this affects the game (no judgments yet) but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
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On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time. Yes it will, have you never played zerg before? With the queen larvae mechanic you'll very often have 4+ eggs morphing at a time PER HATCHERY. If those are all pumping drones and you see your opponent start to move out (let's say you're on 2 hatch for example), you can cancel them all and immediately have 8+ roaches/etc being produced. Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether.
ah if it was so pathetically easy then this change should have no effect
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On April 23 2010 10:33 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:28 De4ngus wrote:On April 23 2010 10:20 cyclone25 wrote:On April 23 2010 10:15 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg, and honestly I don't like that change. It would be like allowing t or p to take back the last 3 units they made out of all their barracks for free and turn them into something else. Why are you saying it like T or P are producing only from one rax/gate? They have multiple production buildings just like zerg has larvae. I they can cancel the zealots/immortals while scouting the mutas, why wouldn't zerg be able to cancel the lings while scouting the colossus? It's all fair now. Well MAYBE because you can't just turn all of those units into workers and have an unstoppable economy???? Why are you saying it like a zerg produces drones out of 10+ larvae?? It's 3-5 larvae for a good zerg who knows to keep his money low. This is just as much as the number of your production buildings. Also you use a different building to produce proves/scvs. Stop exaggerating ...
Huh? Spawn larva on 2 hatches pops 8 larvae, and it's reasonable to assume there's another larva around on each hatch. 10's a pretty reasonable number larva-wise, though maybe not money-wise. His point remains that zerg has the option of putting all 500 minerals into 10 drones while the other races don't. They do make scv's/probes from a different building but that's a limitation not an asset. You can just as well make one drone and the rest zerglings from your hatchery to "simulate" terran/protoss mechanics. Anyways, we'll see how much that change matters ingame.
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On April 23 2010 10:39 Three wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time. Yes it will, have you never played zerg before? With the queen larvae mechanic you'll very often have 4+ eggs morphing at a time PER HATCHERY. If those are all pumping drones and you see your opponent start to move out (let's say you're on 2 hatch for example), you can cancel them all and immediately have 8+ roaches/etc being produced. Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. ah if it was so pathetically easy then this change should have no effect
Before it was pathetically easy as in a terrible player could do it.
Now it's pathetically easy in that a mentally handicapped spawn of a monkey and a donkey could pull it off.
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tbh
I think that this change was made incase you did something stupid like press the wrong hotkey
cause sometimes i personally panic when i see a voidray kill a zergling at a watch tower that i hit my hatch button and accidentally make 3 overlords instead of 3 hydras and end up losing there because i hit the wrong hotkey
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sigh.. way to make the game more easymode now i'm really thinking of race changing -_-
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Orb doesn't like anything other than toss buffs.
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On April 23 2010 10:40 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:39 Three wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time. Yes it will, have you never played zerg before? With the queen larvae mechanic you'll very often have 4+ eggs morphing at a time PER HATCHERY. If those are all pumping drones and you see your opponent start to move out (let's say you're on 2 hatch for example), you can cancel them all and immediately have 8+ roaches/etc being produced. Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. ah if it was so pathetically easy then this change should have no effect Before it was pathetically easy as in a terrible player could do it. Now it's pathetically easy in that a mentally handicapped spawn of a monkey and a donkey could pull it off.
are you worried about playing terrible players in platinum and losing? I don't like this change either but your comment is dumb
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Do you loose the resources when you cancel like this as Zerg?
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On April 23 2010 10:17 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:10 onmach wrote:
I'm a zerg and even i think that may be a bit imbalanced. There are tons of times when I'm making a long making units like say mutas or corruptors and suddenly realize that my situation has changed. Now I won't have to live with the consequences. Agreed, Thinking back to Day9's economy of larva article, I think that was an important characteristic and part of the decision making process for Zerg.
Interesting reference there, which article are you referring to?
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On April 23 2010 10:40 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:39 Three wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:On April 23 2010 10:05 sLiniss wrote:On April 23 2010 10:01 Jonoman92 wrote:On April 23 2010 09:59 DeCoup wrote:On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs. Oh shit that is hot! That's so retarded... So Z can just pump drones non-stop and if they see you attacking, cancel the drones, which turn into larvae, to pump units... No... if the enemy is moving out with a adequate force, stopping all drone production for combat unit production probably won't save you in time. Yes it will, have you never played zerg before? With the queen larvae mechanic you'll very often have 4+ eggs morphing at a time PER HATCHERY. If those are all pumping drones and you see your opponent start to move out (let's say you're on 2 hatch for example), you can cancel them all and immediately have 8+ roaches/etc being produced. Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. ah if it was so pathetically easy then this change should have no effect Before it was pathetically easy as in a terrible player could do it. Now it's pathetically easy in that a mentally handicapped spawn of a monkey and a donkey could pull it off.
This change is beyond me.. do they not realize how much this will get abused..The zerg can now change their mind about what units to make on the fly without any penalty at all. As if zergs previous ability to macro wasn't enough?
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Abortions have consequences in today's society,why not in future insect zerg colonies? Maybe allow cancellation without resources but no way the larvae should live...
Then again, maybe this is because they "changed" the hotkeys a little bit and willl be put back to how it was pre-patch before the game goes RC
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lol you guys are blowing this way outta proportion.. its good yeah, but not as huge as people make it out to be. as others mentioned, the situations where you are making drones from a bazillion larvae and see him moving out with an army that would crush you and then all those drones being morphed changing into zerglings make the difference are very, very rare.
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I gotta be honest.. i'm preety fucking noob with zerg and learning when to manage larva economy is one of the difficulties that i'm currently experiencing. One of the methods i use to determine whether to pump drones or units is based on what i see with my scouting. If i see them going with a mass barracks or mass gateway timing push, obviously i'm going to cancel the larva and pull back a bit on the economy. However, its still based on scouting, deny their scouting and you make the zerg player GUESS.
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On April 23 2010 10:50 diehilde wrote:
lol you guys are blowing this way outta proportion.. its good yeah, but not as huge as people make it out to be. as others mentioned, the situations where you are making drones from a bazillion larvae and see him moving out with an army that would crush you and then all those drones being morphed changing into zerglings make the difference are very, very rare.
Indeed. I cant understand how some in this thread are overestimating this change. Its basically just important for less skilled players that do mistakes. Like omg drone 9food while u should build an overlord there so you can cancel it and switch.
Every other race gets to do it so i def makes sense.
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So its overpowered if Zerg can cancel units and make something else, but not when Terran and Protoss can do it? Seeing as how spawn larva has been nerfed, it seems fair for Zerg to be able to do this.
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lol. should be interesting. gonna take a while to get used to it
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On April 23 2010 11:06 alexanderzero wrote:
So its overpowered if Zerg can cancel units and make something else, but not when Terran and Protoss can do it? Seeing as how spawn larva has been nerfed, it seems fair for Zerg to be able to do this.
Zerg has advantages and disadvantages... the game is balanced around that. This is taking one of the zerg disadvantages away from it.
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I rescind my previous proclamation that larvae cancel would be a big deal. I got in one half a game against the AI before battle.net went back down, and my macro is totally utterly a shambles. Between the no targetting portraits with inject and the change from r to v for inject and the change to where when you select larvae and there are none, it now selects eggs instead, I couldn't beat a bronze terran in my current state. Whoever commented that zerg is now easymode can rest assured, it is not easymode anymore.
Edit: And no, you do not lose any resources whatsoever when you cancel as zerg.
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I think that cancel egg into larva change is huge in early game. If you don't see that early cheese coming or fast marine/zealot/ling rush, you can immediately change your spawn larva that you probably tried to mass up in drones to gain the early economy to zerglings. Outside of early game to early mid game, it's not a big deal, but it could potentially save a zerg from getting caught off guard from an early push.
Remember back in SC1? It was impossible for a zerg to anticipate if that early marine push would come, or even early mid game M&M push. So the way zerg can comfortably drone up was to spawn a few creep colonies to morph later if the Terran threatens to push out. While it doesn't mean you don't need to make spine crawlers anymore, it does mean you don't need to worry about spamming drones from spawn larva in the early game with a potential early small push to come.
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basically you now cannot spam S to select when a larva pops out...
why make it such a pain in the ass? I don't know...
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oh look fast expand and terran can't bunker rush cause you just cancel drones and make lings so much faster now.
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Orb is likely upset that he may have to deviate from his Immortal timing pushes against Zerg, which obviously takes more skill then the entire Zerg race combined. Unless you're one of those people he thinks is a skill-less noob. Which is no doubt me. I'm terrible. Also everything but the Sentry is OP.
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I play Zerg.. I don't really like the larva change, and I don't like select larva selecting eggs if you have zero larva =| wtf is that about. I can click eggs if I want them -_-
On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether.
lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility?
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On April 23 2010 11:14 weeeee wrote:
oh look fast expand and terran can't bunker rush cause you just cancel drones and make lings so much faster now.
Learn to do something other than bunker rush versus Zerg FE if you think that that's OP. Circumvent it instead of just complaining that the same old cheese/strat (don't know if it's easy to transition out of or if you're screwed if you fail). Aren't there hellions/drops that zerg have trouble stopping when they FE?
Most cheese is dependant and luck and unawareness, this just makes it more forgiving for Zerg if he gets cheesed straight off the bat.
And Orb, just because Immortals construction got longer by 15 or so seconds doesn't mean every Zerg is a skill-less noobie. Try out your build again, change it a bit if it doesn't work or just attempt something else completely. I'm sure there's something other than the immortal timing push in PvZ.
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Has anyone figured out how to change key mappnigs yet for abilities? Is it even allowed yet? Already in my first placement I was spamming R without it doing anything, soo annoying >.<
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On April 23 2010 11:44 Kurt_Russell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:14 weeeee wrote:
oh look fast expand and terran can't bunker rush cause you just cancel drones and make lings so much faster now. Learn to do something other than bunker rush versus Zerg FE if you think that that's OP. Circumvent it instead of just complaining that the same old cheese/strat (don't know if it's easy to transition out of or if you're screwed if you fail). Aren't there hellions/drops that zerg have trouble stopping when they FE? Most cheese is dependant and luck and unawareness, this just makes it more forgiving for Zerg if he gets cheesed straight off the bat. .
It was just an example but any early game harass that is designed to punish zerg who are going into mass drones will be less significant. which means less likely hood of harass even happening. Why bother pushing out with marauders if he sees it and changes his currently morphing drones into lings. If you can't harass zerg early they get their eco going so much faster than the other races.
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I haven't had much experience V bunker rushes, but isn't the bunker in construction before the pool goes up when Z FE 15pool 15/16 hatch, meaning that the zerg has time to see it after getting the pool ?
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On April 23 2010 11:13 Lollersauce wrote:
basically you now cannot spam S to select when a larva pops out...
why make it such a pain in the ass? I don't know...
This is by far my greatest issue as well, I don't understand how not everyone is complaining about it.
You guys have other methods to get units made ASAP?
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I'm posting here because I don't have a clue how to start my own thread. I just started a game using the anthill offense, vs the AI & almost immediately went into an Orb nerd rage. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Anthill offense, it is a 6:30 push with 4 queens & round 12 roaches. The key to this offensive push is the ability to heal your roaches using unit icons in your control group. Now that blizzard has disallowed this ability, it is a casters farce. To target an heal a roach without using unit icons is next to impossible without having all health bars visible, which IMO clouds the game. Why was it necessary to make this "improvement"? I play Zerg, so I am not that familiar with problems faced by other races, but I'm sure others are scratching their heads as well.
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On April 23 2010 12:02 Haathen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:13 Lollersauce wrote:
basically you now cannot spam S to select when a larva pops out...
why make it such a pain in the ass? I don't know... This is by far my greatest issue as well, I don't understand how not everyone is complaining about it. You guys have other methods to get units made ASAP?
yep, this is gonna make me rage : | and make all my units slightly delayed
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#3 is so fucking annoying... why?
They made like 2000 tiny changes like this, which doesn't bother me until it starts fucking me up without reason.
I don't mind a simple hotkey change that takes 10 games to completely convert to like the queen's change from 'r' to 'v' but... they just seem to love change for the sake of change sometimes..
If they want a select egg button, they need to make that a different function with a different hotkey..
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Allow me to join the chorus of Zerg players that are INCREDIBLY annoyed at #3. The number on the Select Larva icon doesn't even show actual larva anymore: if you have 2 eggs and 1 larva, it will say 3. Then if you morph the larva, it will still say 3. And if you select larva and it's all eggs, then you have to reselect your hatcheries, then hit S again and hope that you have some larva by then.
The only way to know for sure if you have larva is to physically look at the hatchery and discern through the eggs/queen/creep/units and see if there's little larva squirming there. That's supposed to be what the number on the "Select Larva" button was for... :\
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On April 23 2010 11:28 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility?
?
every poll so far shows that a pretty large majority acknowledge zerg is the easiest race, and terran is the hardest. How does this lose him credibility? Sure, theres a bit of exaggeration but he has a point.
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On April 23 2010 14:56 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:28 Vei wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility? ? every poll so far shows that a pretty large majority acknowledge zerg is the easiest race, and terran is the hardest. How does this lose him credibility? Sure, theres a bit of exaggeration but he has a point.
what is hard about making marauder ?
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plus the new stupid "6 pool with 6 larva ready to morph to zerglings as soon as its done" trick that is so OP its disgusting. i just watch orb do it. its super imba, you cant lose.
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On April 23 2010 15:00 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 14:56 TheAntZ wrote:On April 23 2010 11:28 Vei wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility? ? every poll so far shows that a pretty large majority acknowledge zerg is the easiest race, and terran is the hardest. How does this lose him credibility? Sure, theres a bit of exaggeration but he has a point. what is hard about making marauder ?
If you put it that way, none of the races are hard to play. The difficulties are in the details. Macroing well while muleing at the right times, splitting your army so as not to get concaved, stimming your army, doing drops, kiting and making the right unit compositions
when it comes to zerg though, its pretty much pure macro. And now one of the ONLY remaining weaknesses that hasnt been remedied by spawn larvae in the zerg macro system was removed.
just...lol.
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On April 23 2010 10:04 -orb- wrote:
Wow the cancel larvae change is retarded...
Yea, the best part is zerg can now rush 10 lings from a 6 pool start in the time they used to rush 6. So get ready to see a lot of that on 1v1 maps.
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On April 23 2010 11:47 Mecha71 wrote:
Has anyone figured out how to change key mappnigs yet for abilities? Is it even allowed yet? Already in my first placement I was spamming R without it doing anything, soo annoying >.<
It was stated before the patch even came out that custom keys are not going to be supported at first, but it's something that's likely either in a patch or the expansion, depending on how long it takes to sort out.
Your options until then are right/left, grid/name, or "classic."
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On April 23 2010 14:56 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:28 Vei wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility? ? every poll so far shows that a pretty large majority acknowledge zerg is the easiest race, and terran is the hardest. How does this lose him credibility? Sure, theres a bit of exaggeration but he has a point.
Can you link to such a poll that has been done in the last few patches, like say post roach nerf?
Sorry for the triple post, btw. Didn't realize how dead this topic is at this time.
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On April 23 2010 15:05 italiangymnast wrote:
plus the new stupid "6 pool with 6 larva ready to morph to zerglings as soon as its done" trick that is so OP its disgusting. i just watch orb do it. its super imba, you cant lose.
Orb keeps winning against awful players. He almost lost to an awful protoss who walled. It doesn't look impossible to beat at all, it looks defendable if you scout it, just like anything else.
Oh no! I can't Immortal timing push a Zerg cheese! Imba, imba! Because orb calls something OP is a terrible standard to judge by. If we did things by what orb said, only copper players would be allowed to play as Zerg, no Terran units would be in the game, and Stalkers and Sentries would be the only combat units used at Platinum (now Gold, lol!) level play.
The sad thing is, I actually agree that it needs to be changed, just because it's a stupid idea to be able to recover your Larvae. It's possible to reach a correct conclusion with incorrect reasoning. This is what occurred here.
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On April 23 2010 15:14 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 14:56 TheAntZ wrote:On April 23 2010 11:28 Vei wrote:On April 23 2010 10:09 -orb- wrote:
Zerg was already hilariously easy mode with the queen mechanic, and now the tiny pathetically easy to figure out juggle between drones and attacking units is completely wiped out altogether. lol, really? are you trying to lose credibility? ? every poll so far shows that a pretty large majority acknowledge zerg is the easiest race, and terran is the hardest. How does this lose him credibility? Sure, theres a bit of exaggeration but he has a point. Can you link to such a poll that has been done in the last few patches, like say post roach nerf? Sorry for the triple post, btw. Didn't realize how dead this topic is at this time.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120288
Search function exists
search easiest race
bound to hit on zerg here and there, with a smattering of protoss
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Nice catch on the changes and yes the cancel eggs into larvae is pretty stupid. One really is wondering what has made them come to that conclusion.
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this is a big nerf for my apm :D
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I can't imagine the larva cancel change to not be a bug.
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To add,
used to be you could group queen with hatchery, trigger puke larvae, click the wire frame of the hatchery, and your queen would puke accordingly.
Now clicking the wire frame doesnt work, and you have to click PRECISELY on the hatch in the minimap.
I play zerg, and I no likey the new zerg mechanics.
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On April 23 2010 11:44 Kurt_Russell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:14 weeeee wrote:
oh look fast expand and terran can't bunker rush cause you just cancel drones and make lings so much faster now. Learn to do something other than bunker rush versus Zerg FE if you think that that's OP. Circumvent it instead of just complaining that the same old cheese/strat (don't know if it's easy to transition out of or if you're screwed if you fail). Aren't there hellions/drops that zerg have trouble stopping when they FE? Most cheese is dependant and luck and unawareness, this just makes it more forgiving for Zerg if he gets cheesed straight off the bat. And Orb, just because Immortals construction got longer by 15 or so seconds doesn't mean every Zerg is a skill-less noobie. Try out your build again, change it a bit if it doesn't work or just attempt something else completely. I'm sure there's something other than the immortal timing push in PvZ.
Disagree on the "learn to do something other than bunker rush". First of all a bunker rush like that was extremely risky and almost an auto-loss if it didn't take the hatch down. On the other hand if you let a zerg get away with hatchery first (which in my eyes is just as cheesy as a bunker rush) the zerg get a big economical advantage. The solution may be to fast expand yourself as terran, but I'm very upset that this at least seemingly makes a hatchery before pool build perfectly safe against anything but a proxy. Too early to tell if that's truly the case but I wouldn't be surprised. Bunker rushes should always be an option IMO.
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On April 23 2010 15:43 Railxp wrote:
To add,
used to be you could group queen with hatchery, trigger puke larvae, click the wire frame of the hatchery, and your queen would puke accordingly.
Now clicking the wire frame doesnt work, and you have to click PRECISELY on the hatch in the minimap.
I play zerg, and I no likey the new zerg mechanics.
What, seriously? How stupid is that?
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very simple to make your own hotkeys, all it requires is a text file in ur main sc2 directory. doesnt have to involve any 3rd party program or anything. look around. i changed my hotkeys the first day i got the beta.
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On April 23 2010 15:43 Railxp wrote:
To add,
used to be you could group queen with hatchery, trigger puke larvae, click the wire frame of the hatchery, and your queen would puke accordingly.
Now clicking the wire frame doesnt work, and you have to click PRECISELY on the hatch in the minimap.
I play zerg, and I no likey the new zerg mechanics.
Or you could, you know, hotkey your hatches seperately and double tap the appropriate hotkey and spawn larva the pro way.
And yes, the cancel larvae is stupid, it was one of the things that made zerg so frustrating/loveable when it went wrong/right. Yes having a misclick is annoying, but misclicks should be punished!
I bet they will either exact a penalty on canceling or bring back the killed larva, i hope.
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On April 23 2010 11:06 alexanderzero wrote:
So its overpowered if Zerg can cancel units and make something else, but not when Terran and Protoss can do it? Seeing as how spawn larva has been nerfed, it seems fair for Zerg to be able to do this.
The point is that zerg can pump MASS drones with almost no consequence now because as soon as they see the opponent moving out they just cancel all the larva and switch to units.
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On April 23 2010 15:14 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 15:05 italiangymnast wrote:
plus the new stupid "6 pool with 6 larva ready to morph to zerglings as soon as its done" trick that is so OP its disgusting. i just watch orb do it. its super imba, you cant lose. Orb keeps winning against awful players. He almost lost to an awful protoss who walled. It doesn't look impossible to beat at all, it looks defendable if you scout it, just like anything else. Oh no! I can't Immortal timing push a Zerg cheese! Imba, imba! Because orb calls something OP is a terrible standard to judge by. If we did things by what orb said, only copper players would be allowed to play as Zerg, no Terran units would be in the game, and Stalkers and Sentries would be the only combat units used at Platinum (now Gold, lol!) level play. The sad thing is, I actually agree that it needs to be changed, just because it's a stupid idea to be able to recover your Larvae. It's possible to reach a correct conclusion with incorrect reasoning. This is what occurred here.
6 pool 10 ling is impossible to scout and adapt because you already have your pylon and gate in place, and if you go scout with one of your 6 initial probes, thats just nonsence, and he is platinum alright
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On April 23 2010 09:54 Tamerlane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(5) most sad: I dont give a shit to the stupid warpgates. Why I have to change all my zerg important hotkeys (burrow, spawn larva, parasite, etc) just for a protoss hotkey that I may never use? (I have to parasite a probe and build a lot of stuff to use the hotkey.) I know I can set them back by hand, but i just dont see why we zerg should make this sacrafice. I think it's because of a zerg specific conflict and not because of warpgates
Infestor... control one probe... Nexus, etc etc etc
GL
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On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs.
so does this mean you can have > 3 larvae? ( morph overlord, wait for larvae, cancel overlord, rinse, repeat). would be interesting to see how many muta the moment spire finishes you can get off of 1 hatch queen...
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orb, you don't know what you're talking about.
So what if zerg can now cancel eggs and get larva back ? You think thats an advantage... how about the fact that when protoss makes a proxy pylon to warp-in units while attacking, he can immediatelly decide WHICH units he will need next just based on how the battle is going and a few seconds later have those units attacking at my natural ?
While as zerg or terran you always need to think ahead, what units will i need 30 seconds from now. You basically make a guess and hope it goes well. Protoss no longer makes any guesses.
In BW TvP, if i'm slightly ahead after a major battle the most logical thing to do is to make vultures since protoss will most likely make zealots since they finish faster... but now with warp-gates all units have a ridiculously small cooldown so he can build exactly what he needs anywhere he needs them.
And i'm not able to cancel eggs because my larva die ?
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the r to the v....annoying -.-
and the eggs/larva count is annoying as well.
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Yes decemvre but zerg has other advantages which protoss doesn't.
It's a balance thing, lets say zerg and toss are even without the larva crap. That means if you let zerg cancel larva for free than you mess up the balance of the game.
Zerg are already extremely good at techswitch/drone-pump antics.
Imagine if protoss could also just make 15 probes instantly instead of units, as well as warp gates and chrono boost.
The logic you used is circular.
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On April 23 2010 17:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yes decemvre but zerg has other advantages which protoss doesn't.
It's a balance thing, lets say zerg and toss are even without the larva crap. That means if you let zerg cancel larva for free than you mess up the balance of the game.
Zerg are already extremely good at techswitch/drone-pump antics.
Imagine if protoss could also just make 15 probes instantly instead of units, as well as warp gates and chrono boost.
The logic you used is circular.
Yes but you can constantly make probes without sacrificing possible attack units. So I do not really see the big issue.
Yes we can change our mind but still cant build up army an economy effectivly at the same time at early game. And have to rely on scouting to make those choices, deny that and we are blind. And anyway we cant say if it is OP or not until we see it in play for a few weeks.
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So Zerg unit production that acts the same as Terran or Protoss is now imbalanced?
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On April 23 2010 17:55 Tristy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 17:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yes decemvre but zerg has other advantages which protoss doesn't.
It's a balance thing, lets say zerg and toss are even without the larva crap. That means if you let zerg cancel larva for free than you mess up the balance of the game.
Zerg are already extremely good at techswitch/drone-pump antics.
Imagine if protoss could also just make 15 probes instantly instead of units, as well as warp gates and chrono boost.
The logic you used is circular. Yes but you can constantly make probes without sacrificing possible attack units. So I do not really see the big issue. Yes we can change our mind but still cant build up army an economy effectivly at the same time at early game. And have to rely on scouting to make those choices, deny that and we are blind. And anyway we cant say if it is OP or not until we see it in play for a few weeks. zerg can make multimple drones at once
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On April 23 2010 19:54 systema wrote:
So Zerg unit production that acts the same as Terran or Protoss is now imbalanced?
Yes because you can know pump 10 drone and scout than change your plan by canceling all drones to other units.
Larva management is about choice.
And seriously, comparing zerg macro to terran or protoss is a joke...
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On April 23 2010 19:54 systema wrote:
So Zerg unit production that acts the same as Terran or Protoss is now imbalanced?
its not imba but its really sad that all the racial characteristic are being taken away
this reminds me more and more of the horrible failure that occured in the war3 beta when they destroyed a promising game patch by patch until it was completely broken
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Oh, great. Now, you can't threaten the zerg into making more units than he wants to (when he really wants to be pumping drones) by threatening to attack and then pulling back. Dumbs down Zerg SC2 macro even more. :\
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Dunno why we have 2 threads for unlisted changes, but the zerg mechanic is not the same, unless you're cancelling immediately and nobody is going to do that on purpose, it would just not penalize your mistakes. The real difference is that zergs can now cancel late and still produce the same amount of units, which is clearly better than terran and toss, which lose the time already spent producing and will have less units produced, if they cancel compared to if they produced all the time.
It also allows for zergs to go over the limit of 3 larva per hatch and make 10 lings from a 6 pool, for example.
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TLDR all posts, but im pretty sure larva thing will be hotfixed fairly soon
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On April 23 2010 21:33 jtgizmo wrote:
TLDR all posts, but im pretty sure larva thing will be hotfixed fairly soon
you're not gonna last long here :3
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it'll be really funny if they remove neural parasite and then change all the hotkeys back lol
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On April 23 2010 11:06 alexanderzero wrote:
So its overpowered if Zerg can cancel units and make something else, but not when Terran and Protoss can do it? Seeing as how spawn larva has been nerfed, it seems fair for Zerg to be able to do this.
Wrong. Because Terran and Protoss players don't build workers out of production buildings.
4. Is a terrible change because it takes all of the decision making out of spawn larvae.
5. Combined with no wireframe macro, this makes Zerg mechanically INCREDIBLY hard in the lategame. If you're doing EVERYTHING (spawning creep from multiple locations, injecting into 4-5 hatch), I'd go as far to say it's even harder mechanically than SC1 Zerg or even Terran. Or maybe I'm just getting slow because of the lack of SC1...
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On April 24 2010 01:07 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 11:06 alexanderzero wrote:
So its overpowered if Zerg can cancel units and make something else, but not when Terran and Protoss can do it? Seeing as how spawn larva has been nerfed, it seems fair for Zerg to be able to do this. Wrong. Because Terran and Protoss players don't build workers out of production buildings. 4. Is a terrible change because it takes all of the decision making out of spawn larvae. 5. Combined with no wireframe macro, this makes Zerg mechanically INCREDIBLY hard in the lategame. If you're doing EVERYTHING (spawning creep from multiple locations, injecting into 4-5 hatch), I'd go as far to say it's even harder mechanically than SC1 Zerg or even Terran. Or maybe I'm just getting slow because of the lack of SC1...
its not as mechanically demanding as sc1 zerg because on top of having to macro well as zerg, zerg micro was pretty damn difficult, whereas sc2 basically has tougher macro as zerg but no micro. Overall apm requirement still feels less then BW zerg
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On April 23 2010 09:48 MasterAsia wrote:
(4) most exciting: now you can cancel a egg and make it back into a larva with 0 cost of any resources! Canceling building/morphing still costs.
I support this.
Losing the egg and larvae was always too punitive. The only times I ever wanted to cancel build was when I let my supply get to within 1 of the limit but if I really wanted a 2-supply unit to get started (like a queen) while my ovie is building, canceling was way too costly. Whereas the other 2 races could just cancel and do what they needed.
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It doesn't matter whether or not one race gets to have a mechanic that another race doesn't, what matters is how it's balanced.
You can say "OMG but Terran and Protoss can cancel!", just like you can say "OMG Zerg only needs one production building!", or "Terran gets basically free mules and scans for the rest of the game!" or, "Toss gets to Chrono everything!", or "Larvae spawn is imba!"
Blizzard has always tried to make the races balanced but different.
The inability to cancel efficiently has always been a trademark of zerg, could you imagine the bw scene without it? Zerg would have a few extra percent in their favor, and that's huge.
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I could care less about the macro between the two races, but the 6 pool 12 ling rush needs to be fixed
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EPT
