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On April 23 2010 09:02 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:57 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I am a zerg player and I already go back to my base and do all that. I agree with the change completely just like the warpgates no longer being able to press W to select all. I think it was dumb allowing that in the first place. I heard the copper players don't know they can group hatcheries or units. Let's remove control grouping ... you're clever.
Yes because thats exactly what I said I want control groups removed also!
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On April 23 2010 08:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:23 _EmIL_ wrote:
lol didnt even know that Z had so easy to macro
wtf? So the "game" told the closest queen to inject the hatch? Such a crap tbh. doesnt deserve to be in the game Thats why it was removed but it was also like that for protoss press W and all warp gates are selected which was dumb. I am glad both were removed (although I went to my base anyway :D)
On April 23 2010 08:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I am a zerg player and I already go back to my base and do all that. I agree with the change completely just like the warpgates no longer being able to press W to select all. I think it was dumb allowing that in the first place.
You keep saying this, but since when was pressing W for warpgates removed?
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On April 23 2010 09:09 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:24 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:23 _EmIL_ wrote:
lol didnt even know that Z had so easy to macro
wtf? So the "game" told the closest queen to inject the hatch? Such a crap tbh. doesnt deserve to be in the game Thats why it was removed but it was also like that for protoss press W and all warp gates are selected which was dumb. I am glad both were removed (although I went to my base anyway :D) Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:57 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I am a zerg player and I already go back to my base and do all that. I agree with the change completely just like the warpgates no longer being able to press W to select all. I think it was dumb allowing that in the first place. You keep saying this, but since when was pressing W for warpgates removed?
I read it somewhere from somebody messing around with the editor. Unless that guy lied or I misread I have just been agreeing with it.
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On April 23 2010 09:02 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:42 Archerofaiur wrote:On April 23 2010 08:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2010 08:34 Archerofaiur wrote:On April 23 2010 08:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2010 08:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 23 2010 08:17 Senx wrote:On April 23 2010 08:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 23 2010 08:07 avilo wrote:On April 23 2010 07:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
WTF is interface balance? There is nothing "too easy" or "too hard." That's like saying Protoss in BW is "easy," cause you just "1a2a3a." Interface balance is a concept of how easy it is to play a game mechanically. You have RTS games such as dune, cnc1, war2 that are on one spectrum of the interface balance, aka way too hard and hindering input of what you can do in the game. Then you have Starcraft, which is perfectly in between everything (theoretically) as you have a very nice interface, not too easy, but also not so hard. This is why Starcraft has the highest skill differential among top players period. Then you have newer modern games that are very "easy," such as warcraft 3, redalert 3, cnc3, where macro and game input is very easy, almost too easy, such that the skill differential between top players is very little (that goes for cnc games, not war3). So basically, you have the original RTS games that are one end, the newer RTS on the other end of interface balance, and Starcraft right smack dab in the middle. Dune ++++++++++++++ STarcraftBroodWar +++++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS and then you have SC2, which Blizzard has designed well enough that I would say from playing/watching has a high skill differential, while also having an easier interface than brood war, but not so easy it takes the skill differential of the game away like many other 1 year life cycle RTS games. so you have: Dune/cnc1 +++++++++++ SC BW ++++++++ SC2 +++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS that is interface balance... That is an absurd concept. As far as I'm concerned, when X years from now and we can link minds with our computers, that is when RTS games can be perfected. How fast.well you can physically input something should have absolutely no bearing on a strategy game. So judging from your recent posts, I can assume you think that Starcraft Broodwar is the shittiest RTS of all time beacuse of all the mindless UI and gameplay(unit AI) -hurdles you had to overcome in order to become a really good player? I think alot of people have a different opinion about that on this site. Way to not read posts. I had said that I am fine with limiting factors in terms of UI. But when you have something that improves UI, and then to go back and actively remove it, is beyond me. If I thought SC was a shitty game I wouldn't be on this site watching streams at 5am every night. The health of BW's competition 10 years after release has a lot to do with the difficulty of inputting actions into the game. There has been a ton of discussion on TL.net as to why it's good for the competitive scene to have a limited UI. Honestly the best argument that can be made by people of your opinion is to just pull out of the argument and say that RTS, or the type of RTS SC:BW is, isn't your favorite kind of game. There is something uniquely good about having the most effective strategies be very difficult, essentially impossible, to perform perfectly and it ought to be a feature of all StarCraft RTS games. If you don't like it, play different kinds of games. Again MULE and Chronoboost show you can have both base management AND decision making. Completely missing the point there. This discussion is about the ease of use of the interface. Whether or not an action involves a significant decision does not change how easy the process of doing the action is. We are talking about going from thinking "I want to do this action" to the game actually doing the action. How you came to think that you want to do that action is irrelevant. No its not. Its intrinsically tied with how the player percieves the game. Dont believe me? Run a poll asking which people perfered more: Proton Charge or Chronoboost. I have no idea what you're saying here. Are you responding to just my last sentence? The context before it matters. How you came to think that you want to an action is irrelevant to how easy the process of doing the action is. The process of doing an action is prompted by a decision. It begins after a decision has been made. Whatever difficulty, or lack of difficulty, was in the process of making the decision is not relevant. First you make the decision. Then you do something as a result of making the decision. When you do things on purpose, you must first decide things. What am I going to do? Once you have decided what you are going to do, you have to do it. The discussion here is about how difficult it is to do it. Should we make it difficult on purpose? Should we make it as easy as possible? Should we not pay attention to it at all? Is it okay to make it easy and then make it more difficult? These issues are relevant to the discussion. Anything having to do with making the decision is outside of the discussion.
What he is saying is "spawn larva" not a decision, it is simply dead actions.
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On April 23 2010 09:01 Azide wrote:
Ok this change is huge.
Colossi CANNOT walk past/over FORCE FIELDS.
Good GOD, man. That's...
Oh shit.
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Terrans can use energy for MULE later on if they don't use it. Zergs won't be able to Spawn Larva unless they build another Hatchery.
Screw this "Returning to Base = balanced because Terran has to do it" >.>
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Warpgates are still hotkeyed to W. Been messin around with the editor myself.
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On April 23 2010 09:10 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:09 De4ngus wrote:On April 23 2010 08:24 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:23 _EmIL_ wrote:
lol didnt even know that Z had so easy to macro
wtf? So the "game" told the closest queen to inject the hatch? Such a crap tbh. doesnt deserve to be in the game Thats why it was removed but it was also like that for protoss press W and all warp gates are selected which was dumb. I am glad both were removed (although I went to my base anyway :D) On April 23 2010 08:57 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I am a zerg player and I already go back to my base and do all that. I agree with the change completely just like the warpgates no longer being able to press W to select all. I think it was dumb allowing that in the first place. You keep saying this, but since when was pressing W for warpgates removed? I read it somewhere from somebody messing around with the editor. Unless that guy lied or I misread I have just been agreeing with it.
Why would they make the change Several hotkeys have been changed to avoid conflicts with the "Select All Warpgates" UI button if they removed "Select All Warpgates"?
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I'm amazed at all the people raging on SC2's UI o_O Yeah it's easier to do stuff than BW's asinine UI, the game is still amazingly hard and has PLENTY to keep you occupied with. WC3 basically had all the UI you needed and that game is by no means easy. The discrepency between players like SpiritMoon or FoV and the rank20th is huge.
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On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I'm a zerg player and I approve of the change.
I wouldn't trust TL icons to tell what race a player plays either, especially in SC2.
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On April 23 2010 08:58 WiljushkA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:50 Bennaya13 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:03 HeyZeus wrote:
I don't understand why high-level players (especially those with SC1 backgrounds) continue to defend UI elements that are repetitive and/or arbitrary for the sake rewarding higher APM.
Would the game be better if:
- Unit selection max is 1 unit? That would require some sick APM just to not attack in a straight line!
- Workers don't return minerals automatically after mining?
- No unit production queues?
- Every hotkey changes throughout the course of the game, at pre-defined time intervals? The truly pro would memorize every hot key at minute 1, minute 2, minute 3, etc.
- You were forced to play Bop-It during SC2, and every time you mess up you lose resources?
More repetitive, arbitrary APM-demanding mechanics just dilutes the "strategy" part of "RTS". Thank you! I mean honestly why would anyone want to tediously make extra clicks like that? How is that fun IN ANY WAY? You would think pros might want anything they can get to avoid repetitive stress injuries. yeah cause pros want the game to be easier so every casual person could play near their level, thus making them less special, and therefore decreasing their paychecks. right.
Its basically the same as how the best combos in Streetfighter are dependant on the exact frame of an animation you hit the button on and need mindless tedious hours on end grinding just to do right and consistently.
As a decent SF player(Akuma, Bison, C.Viper!!!, El Fuerte, Rose) I completely understand wanting to have a physical requirement just to be competitive at the high level but less players playing a game leads to stagnation regardless how much my ego wants me to hold an advantage over other players.
Some physical skill checks go to far and some are fine; I draw the line at the point where it stops being fun/rewarding to executive the skill and becomes a chore.
Even if there was a mode for new players to press 1 button to do a fireball or dragon punch I wouldn't mind as I would still beat them with superior tactics/strategy to my matches. But 1 button to execute a combo would be going to far. Its all about knowing how far to go in making a game excessive and challenging.
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On April 23 2010 09:07 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 09:02 cyclone25 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:57 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2010 08:56 cyclone25 wrote:
"Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel." ->> this will make the game even more boring than it is now.
Blizzard wants the player to focus even more on his base/macro rather than on harassing, taking map control, microing in fights, etc. ...
Macroing as it is now was a big reason for zergs to play so passive (camping with the army in base 95% of the game, and then make a final a-move push or move their army to the next expand). Not forgetting larvae injection is really important, since it doesn't work like chronoboost or mules to just spam it 3-4 times in case you forgot it.
I always tried to take map control, harass, scout, or w/e, but now I'm forced to return in my base/expands every 20-30 seconds ...
Btw, notice that all those who agreed with this change have a terran avatar near their tl name = biased opinion by zerg haters. I am a zerg player and I already go back to my base and do all that. I agree with the change completely just like the warpgates no longer being able to press W to select all. I think it was dumb allowing that in the first place. I heard the copper players don't know they can group hatcheries or units. Let's remove control grouping ... you're clever. You're pissed beacuse your race now has to return to their base to use its macro mechanic like the terran has had to do all along. Just calm dude, your race still has the strongest macro mechanic.
1) Terran usually has less expands than zerg -> = terran easier to macro.
2) You can use multiple mules in case you forgot to use them = terran easier to macro.
3) You can use all mules on the same base, while the zerg need check all of them = terran easier to macro.
4) I have to use larvae inject 2x often than u have to use mules.
Stop pretending terran macro = zerg macro -_-
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For spawn larvae, can you still use the ability by clicking on the hatchery on your minimap?
If so, then I'm still fine.
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8751 Posts
On April 23 2010 08:54 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 08:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2010 08:34 Archerofaiur wrote:On April 23 2010 08:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2010 08:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 23 2010 08:17 Senx wrote:On April 23 2010 08:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 23 2010 08:07 avilo wrote:On April 23 2010 07:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 23 2010 07:53 avilo wrote:wow, turning out to be an excellent, excellent patch by blizzard. Congrats on them realizing that there is such a thing as "interface balance," (being too easy, or too hard)and using it in their design process  there is no reason to wonder why these guys are top tier RTS developers. WTF is interface balance? There is nothing "too easy" or "too hard." That's like saying Protoss in BW is "easy," cause you just "1a2a3a." Interface balance is a concept of how easy it is to play a game mechanically. You have RTS games such as dune, cnc1, war2 that are on one spectrum of the interface balance, aka way too hard and hindering input of what you can do in the game. Then you have Starcraft, which is perfectly in between everything (theoretically) as you have a very nice interface, not too easy, but also not so hard. This is why Starcraft has the highest skill differential among top players period. Then you have newer modern games that are very "easy," such as warcraft 3, redalert 3, cnc3, where macro and game input is very easy, almost too easy, such that the skill differential between top players is very little (that goes for cnc games, not war3). So basically, you have the original RTS games that are one end, the newer RTS on the other end of interface balance, and Starcraft right smack dab in the middle. Dune ++++++++++++++ STarcraftBroodWar +++++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS and then you have SC2, which Blizzard has designed well enough that I would say from playing/watching has a high skill differential, while also having an easier interface than brood war, but not so easy it takes the skill differential of the game away like many other 1 year life cycle RTS games. so you have: Dune/cnc1 +++++++++++ SC BW ++++++++ SC2 +++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS that is interface balance... That is an absurd concept. As far as I'm concerned, when X years from now and we can link minds with our computers, that is when RTS games can be perfected. How fast.well you can physically input something should have absolutely no bearing on a strategy game. So judging from your recent posts, I can assume you think that Starcraft Broodwar is the shittiest RTS of all time beacuse of all the mindless UI and gameplay(unit AI) -hurdles you had to overcome in order to become a really good player? I think alot of people have a different opinion about that on this site. Way to not read posts. I had said that I am fine with limiting factors in terms of UI. But when you have something that improves UI, and then to go back and actively remove it, is beyond me. If I thought SC was a shitty game I wouldn't be on this site watching streams at 5am every night. The health of BW's competition 10 years after release has a lot to do with the difficulty of inputting actions into the game. There has been a ton of discussion on TL.net as to why it's good for the competitive scene to have a limited UI. Honestly the best argument that can be made by people of your opinion is to just pull out of the argument and say that RTS, or the type of RTS SC:BW is, isn't your favorite kind of game. There is something uniquely good about having the most effective strategies be very difficult, essentially impossible, to perform perfectly and it ought to be a feature of all StarCraft RTS games. If you don't like it, play different kinds of games. Again MULE and Chronoboost show you can have both base management AND decision making. Completely missing the point there. This discussion is about the ease of use of the interface. Whether or not an action involves a significant decision does not change how easy the process of doing the action is. We are talking about going from thinking "I want to do this action" to the game actually doing the action. How you came to think that you want to do that action is irrelevant. It does change how easy the process Should be though. If something involves no decision making, but requires effort on my part, then it is bad for the fun of the game. Something that requires a decision that requires effort on may part is not bad for the fun of the game. It would be bad for a macro mechanic to be autocast (I agree with you there) Current Spawn Larva decision making does not justify it not being autocast ergo, Spawn Larva is bad rather than the UI* Also, The inability to cast on the wireframe is a significant nerf to abilities like Repair and Transfusion. (Which messes the Queen up even more) Simplest way to deal with it is for Spawn Larva to be made an instant cast and then rebalance it from there. (including rebalancing Hatchery Larva production)
Whaaat? The fun of the game? I don't care how you get your jollies. I am trying to make sure SC2 is a good competitive game. The relationship between how effective an action is and how much effort it requires is the most important thing here. The whole fun thing is still a separate issue. I agree that we should maximize the number of significant decisions required by the game. We should put as many in as we can without compromising the balance or fun of the game.
I mean, if I'm talking about how nutritious an apple is, and you say that markets are overpricing apples, we are talking about two completely separate issues. Yeah, we're both talking about apples. And yeah, you might be able to connect them in a way that is relevant to some people, like saying that overpricing a nutritious food is morally wrong... but the person talking about nutrition doesn't care about that, and the person talking about apple prices doesn't care about that.
I can see how these issues in SC2 are jumbled up together and tightly related but discussion is going to go crazy if people don't handle it carefully.
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as a plat zerg player i have no qualms with them disabling wire frame larva inject(never knew it existed until now) as i would have a hot key and way point for all my hives and hot keys up to 3 queens. i gotta reach for v now instead of r is kind of annoying. r was right under the hot keys i would use for my queens and i could inject quickly and efficiently by double tapping and hitting r.
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It seems weird that they would make a change to the wire-frame casting feature and not list it in the patch notes. Especially since you can still use the mini-map casting (which is not that much more difficult so it makes me skeptical that it was an intentional nerf). Are we sure that it's not just a bug?
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On April 23 2010 09:01 Azide wrote:
Ok this change is huge.
Colossi CANNOT walk past/over FORCE FIELDS.
Aw that sucks, I was kind of hoping that they would let all massive ground units get over forcefields (Or even destroy them, which would make the Ultralisk more useful).
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it always felt awkward to hotkey all my hatcheries and queens then inject larva right then in there in the frame, i just go back to my hatchery and manually do it, and since the icons are so tiny i found myself having trouble clicking on them since my mouse accuracy isn't so great yet. same thing with chrono boost, i just go back and manually do it, it's crazy how many of you bitched because they removed this mechanic, just deal with it
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Pros DO want more casuals playing. That means more interest in their game and more people that think they're special (they're not), turning into bigger paychecks for them.
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I'm willing to bet the wireframe thing is a bug and will be fixed, I've never heard of Blizzard intentionally bogging down their UI in any of their games. Most changes they make strive to make UI stuff easier so the focus can be on actual gameplay.
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