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On April 23 2010 06:22 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 06:10 MindRush wrote:On April 23 2010 05:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 05:29 avilo wrote:I love how many protoss kids are going haywire over the immortal build time increase. You all knew it was coming, you all abused it to no end with warpgate all-ins into expo -> macro. Now it is not so easy rofl. And yes, as FA said, even though immortals are of course strong vs mech, no good player just goes only mech, they ghostmech, but siege tanks for 3 supply and 125 gas? Lol? Blizzard purposely did that because they did not want the tank to be such a central unit like it was in SC1. which is mind boggling, as right now the marauder has pretty much taken that role. What do people really expect Terrans to make in TvP? Name some viable options other than the marauder. I doubt many P here can name any, because there are very few that are standard/viable in the match-up. Patch 8, you had to get a lot of marauders early game to survive all of these protoss immortal/warpgate all-ins. Even a 4warpgate sentry all-in with speedlots was stronger than marauders. The concussive change was good, but tanks are still 25 gas and 1 supply too expensive. oh, and wow, now you guys can't do similar all ins vs Zerg in PvZ. lol. edit: and btw, stalkers with blink are extremely sexy and mobile omg. I lost to a guy yesterday who went straight stalker blink on kulas and abused being mobile between all 3 starting mineral bases  some people in the beta have trouble realizing that this is a beta, and if something is too powerful and the end-all be all, it is going to be nerfed. Marauder's were nerfed, roaches were nerfed, and now immortals have been nerfed, because all of them were too powerful. You can still use them, it is just not as easy is the key thing. Funnily enough I think fast siege mode is really really good vs the warp-gate allin stuff, the only problem is that about half the map have backdoors or really badly placed expansions. well, if the problem is in the map design, this is a small problem, which will be fixed as soon as people start making maps for themselves. With patch9 and galaxy editor 2, i really wanna see Destination2 , Chupung Ryeong2, Fighting Spirit2, etc. The editor has a mostly-working "Import Legacy Map" feature, which means that playing your favorite Brood War (And presumably WC3?) maps in StarCraft 2 is easy as can be. Of course there'll need to be some changes like adding gold minerals, adding a second gas, adding watchtowers, etc, but it should be a pretty easy job. The one problem I'm having is that when I attempt to import these maps they come in without textures of the terrain. Anyone else experience this, or have a fix?
Or just don't add all of that. The new features are nice, but does every single feature have to be jammed into almost every single map?
Immortal build time nerf is really nice.
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ya that map ediotr seems really cool for though taht are good with that kind of graphic design and such
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On April 23 2010 05:38 prototype. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 05:34 Trilogie wrote:On April 23 2010 05:33 prototype. wrote:
Seriously blizzard? Changing what was already confusing hotkeys into something equally confusing? Really? confusing hot keys? How tough is it, I learned the hot keys a day or two after I got the beta. I forget there were players that never played original starcraft... silly me E for weapon upgrade, DEFINITELY NOT CONFUSING.
wEapon. Not confusing. You talk about players that never played original starcraft but mention wEapon as confusing. Oh really - mInes, siege mOde, sTimpack etc etc.
SC2's hotkey system is way better, everything is on the left side of keyboard so you don't have to have longass fingers (actually i do have long fingers and it was annoying anyway to press distant keys, like p for pylon and probe. Thank Blizz <3 for E probe/pylon! ). If you think that "confusing" = "not the exactly same as in SC1" then wow... Most people got used to new keys anyway and i got to say - they are WAY better than SC1 hotkeys.
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Best. Patch. Ever.
Anybody knows what the UI changes were?
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[B]On April 23 2010 06:32 STS17 wrote:
I don't see why everyone is complaining so fucking much about the balance changes.
Has anyone else noticed the trend here? Blizzard is forcing us to try out different strategies and build orders by intentionally over-nerfing popular units. This results in players resorting to different units and styles to play while Blizzard sits there collecting data.
Here is an example:
Patch 7:
T: "Marauders can kite early P units easily, rushing with them is a good idea"
P: "QQ. I keep losing to Marauder all ins and there is nothing I can do! QQ QQ QQ"
Patch 8:
T: "Well, Marauders aren't effective early-game anymore... Let's try the Reaper."
P: "QQ. Reaper rushes are so IMBA they can attack me for 30 seconds before I can even attempt to counter them! QQ QQ QQ"
These kinds of changes will persist for the next month or two (or three) and then each unit will subtlety be brought "back into line" so to speak as its final resting place on the balance scale will be revealed.
These trends have been around since the release of beta but as these are some of the most recent ones. Now they have over-nerfed the Immortal to see how the Protoss players respond to it by forcing them to seek alternate ways of dealing with threats from the opposing races. Meanwhile, the Marauder has been brought to a point where it will likely remain relatively unchanged between now and release - for better or worse.
Zerg has received some interesting buffs allowing some interesting strategies (infested terran harass comes to mind immediately) while T and P will have to respond to - though I hardly imagine they will be game breaking.
TLDR: Quit bitching and read the post or don't bother responding to it.
Except Terran have never been at a disadvantage to toss. They just keep changing which unit the terran masses to run us over. The only real nerf the terran got was back when they shut down the mass marine rush. but ever since then mass marauder into banshees has been the strongest build which most tosses still can't beat. taking away from them even more isn't helping balance.
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On April 23 2010 06:31 Irrelevant wrote:
can't get the patch to work so wasting time drawing titties into maps on the editor
Way ahead of you. 
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Well so far its the worst patch ever. And will remain so until its not stuck in the infinite loop bug thingy :p
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On April 23 2010 06:34 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 06:22 ComradeDover wrote:On April 23 2010 06:10 MindRush wrote:On April 23 2010 05:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 05:29 avilo wrote:I love how many protoss kids are going haywire over the immortal build time increase. You all knew it was coming, you all abused it to no end with warpgate all-ins into expo -> macro. Now it is not so easy rofl. And yes, as FA said, even though immortals are of course strong vs mech, no good player just goes only mech, they ghostmech, but siege tanks for 3 supply and 125 gas? Lol? Blizzard purposely did that because they did not want the tank to be such a central unit like it was in SC1. which is mind boggling, as right now the marauder has pretty much taken that role. What do people really expect Terrans to make in TvP? Name some viable options other than the marauder. I doubt many P here can name any, because there are very few that are standard/viable in the match-up. Patch 8, you had to get a lot of marauders early game to survive all of these protoss immortal/warpgate all-ins. Even a 4warpgate sentry all-in with speedlots was stronger than marauders. The concussive change was good, but tanks are still 25 gas and 1 supply too expensive. oh, and wow, now you guys can't do similar all ins vs Zerg in PvZ. lol. edit: and btw, stalkers with blink are extremely sexy and mobile omg. I lost to a guy yesterday who went straight stalker blink on kulas and abused being mobile between all 3 starting mineral bases some people in the beta have trouble realizing that this is a beta, and if something is too powerful and the end-all be all, it is going to be nerfed. Marauder's were nerfed, roaches were nerfed, and now immortals have been nerfed, because all of them were too powerful. You can still use them, it is just not as easy is the key thing. Funnily enough I think fast siege mode is really really good vs the warp-gate allin stuff, the only problem is that about half the map have backdoors or really badly placed expansions. well, if the problem is in the map design, this is a small problem, which will be fixed as soon as people start making maps for themselves. With patch9 and galaxy editor 2, i really wanna see Destination2 , Chupung Ryeong2, Fighting Spirit2, etc. The editor has a mostly-working "Import Legacy Map" feature, which means that playing your favorite Brood War (And presumably WC3?) maps in StarCraft 2 is easy as can be. Of course there'll need to be some changes like adding gold minerals, adding a second gas, adding watchtowers, etc, but it should be a pretty easy job. The one problem I'm having is that when I attempt to import these maps they come in without textures of the terrain. Anyone else experience this, or have a fix? Or just don't add all of that. The new features are nice, but does every single feature have to be jammed into almost every single map? Immortal build time nerf is really nice.
The double gas, for one, is manditory. Unless you want to play SC2 with half the normal gas income.
The others can definitely add something to old maps. I'd love to see high-yield expansions in HBR, for example. Or watchtowers on destination.
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Map editor is released AKA they can start making DotA for sc2 before the game is released
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@Morrow
Ok, forget the numbers but i think that kind of Change would be ok.
Make him have 200HP(33%increase) and let him take 25% more dmg in Siege. or any kind of Numbers.
In my Opinion every Unit is playable even without upgrades. Tank just gets even a bit useful in Siege.
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Does anyone have a direct link to the patch?
Thanks
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On April 23 2010 06:32 STS17 wrote:
I don't see why everyone is complaining so fucking much about the balance changes.
Has anyone else noticed the trend here? Blizzard is forcing us to try out different strategies and build orders by intentionally over-nerfing popular units. This results in players resorting to different units and styles to play while Blizzard sits there collecting data.
Here is an example:
Patch 7:
T: "Marauders can kite early P units easily, rushing with them is a good idea"
P: "QQ. I keep losing to Marauder all ins and there is nothing I can do! QQ QQ QQ"
Patch 8:
T: "Well, Marauders aren't effective early-game anymore... Let's try the Reaper."
P: "QQ. Reaper rushes are so IMBA they can attack me for 30 seconds before I can even attempt to counter them! QQ QQ QQ"
These kinds of changes will persist for the next month or two (or three) and then each unit will subtlety be brought "back into line" so to speak as its final resting place on the balance scale will be revealed.
These trends have been around since the release of beta but as these are some of the most recent ones. Now they have over-nerfed the Immortal to see how the Protoss players respond to it by forcing them to seek alternate ways of dealing with threats from the opposing races. Meanwhile, the Marauder has been brought to a point where it will likely remain relatively unchanged between now and release - for better or worse.
Zerg has received some interesting buffs allowing some interesting strategies (infested terran harass comes to mind immediately) while T and P will have to respond to - though I hardly imagine they will be game breaking.
TLDR: Quit bitching and read the post or don't bother responding to it.
The big problem I see with the Immortal nerf, is the Roach rush from a cunning Zerg. Its not rocket science to hide your Roach Warren at the back and prevent Probes from getting into your base with a handful of Zerglings after a certain point. This requires Protoss to get an Observer in there, and by the time you see that Warren, it could be too late.
I've had several games recently where I followed the standard logical progression of not building units like Immortals unless I have a good reason to, so I send in the Observer and find out what's up. Every time I've BARELY been able to get an Immortal out by the time the Roaches were hitting my mineral line, and that's maps like Metalopolis and Lost Temple. God help me had it been Steppes or Blistering Sands.
They don't balance by intentionally throwing in outliers and then scaling everything back a tiny bit before release. That would be incredibly disruptive to the metagame. Lots of little, last-minute changes will compound into bigger and bigger problems. They make changes with both individual unit combat and metagame in mind.
That's why all these Terran players crying about Hardened Shields, or the fact that Immortals counter all Mech are wasting their breath, same with Protoss players crying about stimmed Marauders. The Immortals is MEANT to counter Mech and Marauders are MEANT to rape face with Stims. Its on you to figure out how to counter it with the tools you have available. Not sit there waiting for the minds of Blizzard devs to align with your own bias opinions.
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On April 23 2010 06:36 seedfreedom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 06:32 STS17 wrote:
I don't see why everyone is complaining so fucking much about the balance changes.
Has anyone else noticed the trend here? Blizzard is forcing us to try out different strategies and build orders by intentionally over-nerfing popular units. This results in players resorting to different units and styles to play while Blizzard sits there collecting data.
Here is an example:
Patch 7:
T: "Marauders can kite early P units easily, rushing with them is a good idea"
P: "QQ. I keep losing to Marauder all ins and there is nothing I can do! QQ QQ QQ"
Patch 8:
T: "Well, Marauders aren't effective early-game anymore... Let's try the Reaper."
P: "QQ. Reaper rushes are so IMBA they can attack me for 30 seconds before I can even attempt to counter them! QQ QQ QQ"
These kinds of changes will persist for the next month or two (or three) and then each unit will subtlety be brought "back into line" so to speak as its final resting place on the balance scale will be revealed.
These trends have been around since the release of beta but as these are some of the most recent ones. Now they have over-nerfed the Immortal to see how the Protoss players respond to it by forcing them to seek alternate ways of dealing with threats from the opposing races. Meanwhile, the Marauder has been brought to a point where it will likely remain relatively unchanged between now and release - for better or worse.
Zerg has received some interesting buffs allowing some interesting strategies (infested terran harass comes to mind immediately) while T and P will have to respond to - though I hardly imagine they will be game breaking.
TLDR: Quit bitching and read the post or don't bother responding to it. [b]Except Terran have never been at a disadvantage to toss. They just keep changing which unit the terran masses to run us over. The only real nerf the terran got was back when they shut down the mass marine rush. but ever since then mass marauder into banshees has been the strongest build which most tosses still can't beat. taking away from them even more isn't helping balance.
Hmmm...
http://www.teamliquid.net/userpoll/draw.php?poll_id=8937
http://www.teamliquid.net/userpoll/draw.php?poll_id=8940
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120288
And this applies to every P whining about "PvT is gonna be impossible now because it was already hard and now immortals take sooo long to produce"
Also - look at recent tourneys. Yes, there was a time when it was T>P (at least i considered it that way) but seems like most P players turned the balance in their favor. Maybe we will see some brilliant change in TvP that will change this state (or simply some patch will balance this) but so far let's not draw any conclusions about P>T
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On April 23 2010 06:42 Rotodyne wrote:
Does anyone have a direct link to the patch?
Thanks
Blizzard wont provide that in beta they said. Only downloader.
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On April 23 2010 05:56 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 05:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 05:48 lololol wrote:On April 23 2010 05:22 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 05:20 AmstAff wrote:On April 23 2010 04:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 04:51 iamtt1 wrote:
i was personally hoping for a small stalker health buff and some sort of nerf on emp, the immortal time buff doesnt bother me too much because ive always thought that its strenght to build time ratio wasnt even equivalent in the first place, that being said a 40 to 50 build time increase would have been more logical, right now thors(60 secs right?) and immortals have almost the same build time.. doesnt make sense You want to nerf emp more......? Being able to spawn 75 mana high templars isnt' good enough? right now the ghost is more effective than HTs and you get them way faster out than P HTs and you dont need any upgrades to use them. i would like it if feedback would have at least more range than EMP. its way easier to EMP than feedback and T isnt really microing anything during the fight. EMP+STIM and lets see. P needs to feeback Ghosts (gl to feeback 4 ghost between 80Marauders and some medivacs) drop HTs out of Prism, Guardian shields and starting to FF and then PSI and if you didnt splitted your army or have some keyunits on the same place you are dead anyway. the only way to win PvT seems to be early aggression or hidden Colossus, because a T can mass vikings so fast its ridiculous and 1 Colossus gets sniped so fast by Marauders that it doesnt make any sense to attack with 1 Colossus (unless you went for some 1 Base Timingattack). I dont know how to explain but i think its way easier to win TvP if both are equal bad/decent skilled players and the P will have it easier if both are equal good skilled players. the only thing that doesnt make any sense for me is that T builds 2 Units and i need 4 to have an equal chance to win and same goes for PvZ. all i face is hydra/roach and if the game is longer than 15min or something they just press the Broodlord aka i win button. imo the biggest problems are marauders and roaches just change HP/Attack of these units. immortals are fine imo i dont build them and if i build them, i build them just to counter roaches/marauders. P has other units that are more effective against anything else, expect these 2, massable, OP units. For T mech i would like to see first Tanks for 150/75 or 150/100. For Z i would like to see that spawn larva would just produce 3 Larvas. For P i would like to see a Cooldown for FF, like HTs have, so that you can just throw 10 FF down at once, if you have 10 sentrys. Feedback has more range than EMP already, and the fact that you can spawn with enough energy for a storm coupled with warp-in makes them EXTREMELY strong. T needs to get cloak once P gets high templars, or obs+ht will just kill your ghosts nonstop - which is absolutely fine btw, I don't mind getting cloak. Also, I think you are exaggerating a bit how easy it is to micro T armies - running a move into colossi and storm isn't good :p Spreading marauders, casting EMP and focus firing vikings is a decent bit of work. Actually EMP has 10 range, while feedback has 9, so if you're targetting in front of the HT, you should be able to launch an EMP. Thought it was the other way around? Well, my bad then. well ur not really wrong in practical use in an actual game even the newbiest tosses will throw the feedback as soon as ur in range while its quite a hard task for terran to emp right in time they could change storm and emp to 100 and add 33% area (not radius 8D) to them imo it would be all for the better. but i think its maybe bad to talk about future patch before this one is working <3
I think its fair that feedback has more range because the EMPs can be spammed all over the protoss army with no more thought while the feedbacks need to hit every ghost one by one, and finding them among a big ass MM ball isnt as easy to do.
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Damn all this talk is making me jelous! give us europeans the patch already please! 
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On April 23 2010 06:34 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 06:22 ComradeDover wrote:On April 23 2010 06:10 MindRush wrote:On April 23 2010 05:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 23 2010 05:29 avilo wrote:I love how many protoss kids are going haywire over the immortal build time increase. You all knew it was coming, you all abused it to no end with warpgate all-ins into expo -> macro. Now it is not so easy rofl. And yes, as FA said, even though immortals are of course strong vs mech, no good player just goes only mech, they ghostmech, but siege tanks for 3 supply and 125 gas? Lol? Blizzard purposely did that because they did not want the tank to be such a central unit like it was in SC1. which is mind boggling, as right now the marauder has pretty much taken that role. What do people really expect Terrans to make in TvP? Name some viable options other than the marauder. I doubt many P here can name any, because there are very few that are standard/viable in the match-up. Patch 8, you had to get a lot of marauders early game to survive all of these protoss immortal/warpgate all-ins. Even a 4warpgate sentry all-in with speedlots was stronger than marauders. The concussive change was good, but tanks are still 25 gas and 1 supply too expensive. oh, and wow, now you guys can't do similar all ins vs Zerg in PvZ. lol. edit: and btw, stalkers with blink are extremely sexy and mobile omg. I lost to a guy yesterday who went straight stalker blink on kulas and abused being mobile between all 3 starting mineral bases some people in the beta have trouble realizing that this is a beta, and if something is too powerful and the end-all be all, it is going to be nerfed. Marauder's were nerfed, roaches were nerfed, and now immortals have been nerfed, because all of them were too powerful. You can still use them, it is just not as easy is the key thing. Funnily enough I think fast siege mode is really really good vs the warp-gate allin stuff, the only problem is that about half the map have backdoors or really badly placed expansions. well, if the problem is in the map design, this is a small problem, which will be fixed as soon as people start making maps for themselves. With patch9 and galaxy editor 2, i really wanna see Destination2 , Chupung Ryeong2, Fighting Spirit2, etc. The editor has a mostly-working "Import Legacy Map" feature, which means that playing your favorite Brood War (And presumably WC3?) maps in StarCraft 2 is easy as can be. Of course there'll need to be some changes like adding gold minerals, adding a second gas, adding watchtowers, etc, but it should be a pretty easy job. The one problem I'm having is that when I attempt to import these maps they come in without textures of the terrain. Anyone else experience this, or have a fix? Or just don't add all of that. The new features are nice, but does every single feature have to be jammed into almost every single map? Immortal build time nerf is really nice.
The Brood War maps are not balanced for SC2 play. At all. You can't just bring them in and expect it to work. Cliff areas, high grounds have to be tweaked, and the game is balanced around having 2 gas geysers, not one.
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On April 23 2010 06:36 seedfreedom wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On April 23 2010 06:32 STS17 wrote:
I don't see why everyone is complaining so fucking much about the balance changes.
Has anyone else noticed the trend here? Blizzard is forcing us to try out different strategies and build orders by intentionally over-nerfing popular units. This results in players resorting to different units and styles to play while Blizzard sits there collecting data.
Here is an example:
Patch 7:
T: "Marauders can kite early P units easily, rushing with them is a good idea"
P: "QQ. I keep losing to Marauder all ins and there is nothing I can do! QQ QQ QQ"
Patch 8:
T: "Well, Marauders aren't effective early-game anymore... Let's try the Reaper."
P: "QQ. Reaper rushes are so IMBA they can attack me for 30 seconds before I can even attempt to counter them! QQ QQ QQ"
These kinds of changes will persist for the next month or two (or three) and then each unit will subtlety be brought "back into line" so to speak as its final resting place on the balance scale will be revealed.
These trends have been around since the release of beta but as these are some of the most recent ones. Now they have over-nerfed the Immortal to see how the Protoss players respond to it by forcing them to seek alternate ways of dealing with threats from the opposing races. Meanwhile, the Marauder has been brought to a point where it will likely remain relatively unchanged between now and release - for better or worse.
Zerg has received some interesting buffs allowing some interesting strategies (infested terran harass comes to mind immediately) while T and P will have to respond to - though I hardly imagine they will be game breaking.
TLDR: Quit bitching and read the post or don't bother responding to it. Except Terran have never been at a disadvantage to toss. They just keep changing which unit the terran masses to run us over. The only real nerf the terran got was back when they shut down the mass marine rush. but ever since then mass marauder into banshees has been the strongest build which most tosses still can't beat. taking away from them even more isn't helping balance.
Oh I completely agree with you. I play T (hence the choice of complaints are both against T units being OP and both races are P who are complaining - I wasn't insinuating P ever had it easy over T) and I wasn't around the Beta until after the reactor nerf. However, I have had almost perfect success against P with Reaper harass -> Marauder -> 2port Banshee since P7 when marauders still had CS by default.
My success rate (while I enjoy it) is something I have an issue with since I don't like being able to roll over someone unless they catch me offguard with cheese (oh, and Reaper > 2 Gate Proxy so don't try it against someone fast teching to Reapers). I feel that T needed the Marauder nerf (though I disagreed with it being 80s, and think 100/100/60s is more appropriate).
Protoss need a revamp to their tech structure. One tech tree shouldn't be the answer to almost everything and that is something I believe Blizzard will address before release.
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lol holy crap so much whining about the patch.
I'm excited to try the new map, hope it's good.
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So, does anyone have images of the new maps, and I just missed em?
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EPT
