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On April 08 2010 04:04 StoLiVe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 04:01 LUE.Leoj wrote: They can decrease the build time of mech all they want but honestly unless they can lower the gas cost, and maybe the food cost, it's still underpowered. I agree but still it's more viable now. pretty sure in the next patch we will see some gas decrease on the tank Not just more viable, its GAME WINNING NOW! Once a proxy fac is made on scrap station and the Thor is out, Terran wins right away!
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edit: nevermind, i thought queens were armored
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On April 08 2010 04:06 ZergZergling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 04:02 nodule wrote: say it with me, people: THE VOID RAY WAS NOT NERFED
It gained significantly more initial (stage 1+2) dmg, especially against non-armoured units, and does more average damage over time to all units.
It was also made slightly more expensive, mineral-wise, and takes a bit more dmg.
Just because there are some relatively small negative changes to a unit does not mean it was nerfed. Void rays are much worse now. Before the patch opening with void rays was almost decent vs zerg, now it costs 50 more minerals, does less damage to the queen, and takes more damage from the queen. It's worse in every way.
Queens aren't armored. It does more damage to them.
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On April 08 2010 03:56 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 03:51 zomgzergrush wrote:On April 08 2010 03:51 Alou wrote: Why exactly are void rays nerfed in this? It seems more of just a change, rather than a simple nerf or buff. I think we need to try it some before we all jump on the raging bandwagon. If a queen can kill a voidray or if hydras can pop out in time before 1 voidray rush kills the hatch, then all is good. Perhaps you don't understand the full nature of this Void Ray "nerf." Before, a Queen could kill a single VR one on one. This is no longer the case. The VR does much more damage to Queens in the lower stages. Once the Queen dies, the VR will be fully charged, and can immediately target the Hatch at maximum power. So Terran players are going to have to get Marauders if they even smell Roaches coming from the Zerg. Show nested quote +And actually it's ridiculously easy for Z to deal with Voidrays - just build additional queens. While a Hatchery is producing a Queen, it cannot also be making a Lair/Hive. So building a Queen delays your tech massively.
And to complement Incontrol's brilliant observation, I present the above.
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On April 08 2010 04:06 ZergZergling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 04:02 nodule wrote: say it with me, people: THE VOID RAY WAS NOT NERFED
It gained significantly more initial (stage 1+2) dmg, especially against non-armoured units, and does more average damage over time to all units.
It was also made slightly more expensive, mineral-wise, and takes a bit more dmg.
Just because there are some relatively small negative changes to a unit does not mean it was nerfed. Void rays are much worse now. Before the patch opening with void rays was almost decent vs zerg, now it costs 50 more minerals, does less damage to the queen, and takes more damage from the queen. It's worse in every way. DOES MORE DAMAGE TO THE QUEEN! It kills the queen 1 on 1 and after that its at full power.
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Patch is awesome except Void Ray... that is a mystery -.-
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On April 08 2010 03:54 Yamoth wrote:
You kind of suck at math...
old = 4(12a), 8(24a), 16(48a) new = 10, 10, 20(50a)
Now lets see how the damage is compared over a period of time. old non-armored = 4, 12, 28, 44, 60, 76, 92, 108 new non-armored+ 10, 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, 140, 200
old armored = 12, 36, 84, 132, 180, 228 new armored = 10, 20, 80, 130, 180, 230
So based on the math alone new void ray out damage old void ray on non-armored unit from the start and out damage armored after 5 seconds.
Now lets factor in the cost of the void ray, I will only do mineral since gas stays the same.
Mineral different mean that for the same mineral cost, you can get 5 old void ray or 4 new void ray. To make my life simple, I will simply multiply all the damage progression by 5 for old and 4 for new.
old non-armored = 20, 60, 140, 220, 300, 380 new non-armored = 40, 80, 160, 240, 320, 400
old armored = 60, 180, 420, 660, 900, 1140 new armored = 40, 80, 320, 520, 720, 920
So mineral for mineral, the new void ray stills do more damage to non-armored unit and take a hurting on armored unit.
However, if you factor in armor reduction and the fact that most void ray production is limited by gas and not so much mineral and me here too lazy to do more math. I would say that this is still for the most part a buff to void ray.
For future reference :D
And yeah my bad, the VR math is confusing XD
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On April 08 2010 04:06 ZergZergling wrote: Void rays are much worse now. Before the patch opening with void rays was almost decent vs zerg, now it costs 50 more minerals, does less damage to the queen, and takes more damage from the queen. It's worse in every way. I see you are the type of player who would use such awesome unit for cheesing.
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i somehow feel that scv's should have 60hp again ...
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Am i correct in assuming that Terran will have to expand more to be viable? It seems that by decreasing mech build times without decreasing the cost they're trying to push Terran to be more aggressive about taking extra bases (to afford a bigger army), rather than just take your natural -> turtle to 200 food -> attack.
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Why are people complaining about Sentries, are the force fields really that strong? I mean, you have to take in to account that they do cost 100 gas, which is quite pricey early game.
I would also like to see a small buff to zealot speed, I mean they are melee units but their speed is lacking. Nothing too huge.
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On April 08 2010 04:07 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 03:56 NicolBolas wrote:On April 08 2010 03:51 zomgzergrush wrote:On April 08 2010 03:51 Alou wrote: Why exactly are void rays nerfed in this? It seems more of just a change, rather than a simple nerf or buff. I think we need to try it some before we all jump on the raging bandwagon. If a queen can kill a voidray or if hydras can pop out in time before 1 voidray rush kills the hatch, then all is good. Perhaps you don't understand the full nature of this Void Ray "nerf." Before, a Queen could kill a single VR one on one. This is no longer the case. The VR does much more damage to Queens in the lower stages. Once the Queen dies, the VR will be fully charged, and can immediately target the Hatch at maximum power. So Terran players are going to have to get Marauders if they even smell Roaches coming from the Zerg. And actually it's ridiculously easy for Z to deal with Voidrays - just build additional queens. While a Hatchery is producing a Queen, it cannot also be making a Lair/Hive. So building a Queen delays your tech massively. And to complement Incontrol's brilliant observation, I present the above. Yes and we must LOVE the protoss! Just say it with me "WE LOVE THE GREAT AND ALL POWERFUL PROTOSS" "The Protoss is the best race and we shall betray all other races and join the all mighty protoss!" "FOR AUIR!"
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On April 08 2010 03:33 DeA wrote:Yup, Hydralisks that cost 100/50, need Lair tech, have 80HP and 12 damage are so worth it now...  It's like they kept the Hydralisk from SC:BW and nerfed it completely.
Dont forget the 2 pop :|
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is blizzard resetting the profiles along with the patch? and after this marauder nerf, I forsee way more air/mech play in tvz, and with hydras and roaches nerfed, now there is no counter for thors....
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On April 08 2010 04:05 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 03:51 Zelniq wrote:On April 08 2010 03:21 diehilde wrote: in all honesty, jinro had the best tvz on the entire EU server with a strategy centered around thors. The only somewhat viable counter was a shitton of roaches. Now with Thor build time decreased and roaches substantially nerfed, plus the prior patch which made thor annihilate air I cant see anyone beating that strat. how does -1 armor for roach matter vs thor? it helps the hellions a tiny bit vs roaches but theyre still not that good vs just tons of roaches. marauders previously did 18 damage to roaches and now do 19, not the biggest deal. mass roach into broodlords still seems very very strong vs metal / bio/metal play its not the -1 to armor which is the big thing against thors, but the 15 second decrease on thor build time.
I believe he was responding to this:
On April 08 2010 03:21 diehilde wrote: Now with Thor build time decreased and roaches substantially nerfed,
And I agree with him. The 'substantial nerf' to roaches doesn't affect thor v roach at all.
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On April 08 2010 04:09 CandleJack wrote: Am i correct in assuming that Terran will have to expand more to be viable? It seems that by decreasing mech build times without decreasing the cost they're trying to push Terran to be more aggressive about taking extra bases (to afford a bigger army), rather than just take your natural -> turtle to 200 food -> attack. Obviously, people at Blizzard saw game one of Flash vs Movie.
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so everybody realizes how hard Sentry/Zealot pushes are going to own early game, right?
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On April 08 2010 04:09 ohN wrote: MECH TVZ HERE I COME :D
How are you going to mech against baneligns ? helions get raped by them, Thors most likely too, and tanks might take a few out before they fall.
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Don't quite understand void ray buff, but other than that this patch should be interesting. TT_TT I think kulas ravine is going to be a bitch to play on now, faster thors dropping on the high ground
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