EPTThough immortals and siege tank relationship, it's very iffy because siege tank was such an important part of the terran army and one unit pretty much make them undesirable(I won't say "useless"). The problem with immortals isn't the fact that they are hard counters to siege tanks, it's that there aren't a hard counter against them in the same magnitude. Of course, air to ground is a "hard" counter but support comes way too easily and air is never the ideal main army compositions. First problem is mostly due to costs of air units, it's not easily massable and usually pretty easily counterable. Second is that the counter from air to ground doesn't 3 shot an immortal like it does to a 125 gas costing siege tank AND the siege tank does little damage to the immortal. But this issue is different because it is not early game and there are many variations and choices, which doesn't make it as big of a deal as roach vs marine/zealots or even marauders vs zealots relationship.
The Roach is whats wrong with SC2. - Page 17
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
Though immortals and siege tank relationship, it's very iffy because siege tank was such an important part of the terran army and one unit pretty much make them undesirable(I won't say "useless"). The problem with immortals isn't the fact that they are hard counters to siege tanks, it's that there aren't a hard counter against them in the same magnitude. Of course, air to ground is a "hard" counter but support comes way too easily and air is never the ideal main army compositions. First problem is mostly due to costs of air units, it's not easily massable and usually pretty easily counterable. Second is that the counter from air to ground doesn't 3 shot an immortal like it does to a 125 gas costing siege tank AND the siege tank does little damage to the immortal. But this issue is different because it is not early game and there are many variations and choices, which doesn't make it as big of a deal as roach vs marine/zealots or even marauders vs zealots relationship. | ||
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shalafi
394 Posts
If they fix this and the high to low ground advantage, SC2 is good to go for me. | ||
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TheRunawayFound
64 Posts
On April 05 2010 10:59 Angra wrote: I honestly wouldn't be surprised if removing roaches, marauders and immortals from the game made it 10x more interesting and fun to play/watch. This. I hope Blizzard gets the enough feed back to realize it. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Zexion
Sweden971 Posts
On April 05 2010 23:48 TheRunawayFound wrote: This. I hope Blizzard gets the enough feed back to realize it. Yeah, let's make it more like SC:BW!!! Isn't that something we want to avoid? | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
I do not know how deal with these armor units without pretty much re-creating starcraft 1(ie removing them). It's a tough nut to crack for sure.. But the overall idea has to revolve around the following: TIER 1 units must have soft counters within the tier and harder counters later in tech tree, you can't just mass marauders beacuse its the only way to beat mass roaches, they need to remove the forced choice. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On April 05 2010 23:12 Amber[LighT] wrote: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24038430112&sid=5000 Whoever created this thread thanks  I would suggest everyone who has complaints to voice their opinions OVER THERE. Since they will probably read their own threads if it looks like it's a huge issue they will take it more seriously. Agreed. Flood the field guys. | ||
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MMmmmmmmmm
United States36 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 00:03 Senx wrote: TIER 1 units must have soft counters within the tier and harder counters later in tech tree, you can't just mass marauders beacuse its the only way to beat mass roaches, they need to remove the forced choice. Yeah, I want to have the freedom with my Reaper Harass to MMM Push build. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On April 05 2010 10:45 Half wrote: That a unit as absurd as a roach should be overpowered within a traditional SC framework. ... Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas. SC is not designed around such a unit. ... Remove it, or drastically rework it into something else, one more akin to the role of the Hydra The entirety of this argument is trying to make this game Broodwar. Starcraft 2 is not Broodwar, I don't understand why people have the overpowering urge to look at everything within a "traditional" SC framework. It's a new game, we should be looking at the framework of the new game, not trying to fit it into the old framework, and when realizing that doesn't work, begin complaining for patches until it does. We want Starcraft 2, not Broodwar with prettier graphics. You even said it yourself - Roaches are fine in their role in SC2. Therefore, it's a fine unit. The dynamics of a matchup and all this other stuff is another matter completely. By, for example, removing the Roach, you're not introducing new-found life into SC2, you're trying to twist it into Broodwar. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On April 06 2010 00:19 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The entirety of this argument is trying to make this game Broodwar. Starcraft 2 is not Broodwar, I don't understand why people have the overpowering urge to look at everything within a "traditional" SC framework. It's a new game, we should be looking at the framework of the new game, not trying to fit it into the old framework, and when realizing that doesn't work, begin complaining for patches until it does. We want Starcraft 2, not Broodwar with prettier graphics. You even said it yourself - Roaches are fine in their role in SC2. Therefore, it's a fine unit. The dynamics of a matchup and all this other stuff is another matter completely. By, for example, removing the Roach, you're not introducing new-found life into SC2, you're trying to twist it into Broodwar. Oh come on dude. Really? No one is saying we want Brood War back. That's an asinine argument against this. All we want is a set of matchups that at their core aren't based around extensions to the Trinity of Blah that we have in the Roach Immortal and Marauder. In and of themselves I think most people aren't particularly enamored with the units, but adding to the fact that they all require the others to be built in order to stay competitive, it just leads to boring matchups (from a spectator AND player perspective). All this thread is about is stating that something needs to change to get us away from having to have these units define their respective races strategies. Nothing about Brood War. I promise. | ||
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FaZiNaTe
Germany290 Posts
I know no unit from Toss is 1Cap only the Probe. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On April 05 2010 23:12 Amber[LighT] wrote: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24038430112&sid=5000 Whoever created this thread thanks I would suggest everyone who has complaints to voice their opinions OVER THERE. Since they will probably read their own threads if it looks like it's a huge issue they will take it more seriously. I also linked Plexa's marauder thread and I hope the OP will add it so they have both threads for reference, since both of these threads have had great discussions on Roaches/Marauders/Immortals. Thanks to whoever re-posted my post in that thread. I can't post there myself since EU beta accounts can't post on the US beta forums. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 00:19 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The entirety of this argument is trying to make this game Broodwar. Starcraft 2 is not Broodwar, I don't understand why people have the overpowering urge to look at everything within a "traditional" SC framework. It's a new game, we should be looking at the framework of the new game, not trying to fit it into the old framework, and when realizing that doesn't work, begin complaining for patches until it does. We want Starcraft 2, not Broodwar with prettier graphics. You even said it yourself - Roaches are fine in their role in SC2. Therefore, it's a fine unit. The dynamics of a matchup and all this other stuff is another matter completely. By, for example, removing the Roach, you're not introducing new-found life into SC2, you're trying to twist it into Broodwar. SC1's formula is just too good that you would be a fool to design an esport not based on it. Blizzard is making an esport and being forced to use Roaches/Immortals/Marauders every game wouldn't do any good for the long run. | ||
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ExoCorsair
United States48 Posts
On April 06 2010 00:35 [ADT]-FaZiNaTe-[GeR] wrote: Roaches need to be 2Cap Unit not 1... that would fix them. I know no unit from Toss is 1Cap only the Probe. Observer too, to be nit-picky. Thanks to whoever re-posted my post in that thread. I can't post there myself since EU beta accounts can't post on the US beta forums. You're welcome? :p It needed to be posted, frankly. | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
hell no. any spaz can micro a clump of stimpack marauders against slowed units.. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
On April 05 2010 23:55 Zexion wrote: Yeah, let's make it more like SC:BW!!! Isn't that something we want to avoid? No, it's not something we want to avoid at all. Did you forget that this is a Brood War website? | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On April 06 2010 01:23 daz wrote: No, it's not something we want to avoid at all. Did you forget that this is a Brood War website? If 3 units are all that makes SC2 unique from BW, then I think we have some even more serious problems... Having said that I don't think its necessary to remove them, just tweak their stats and the stats of other units in relation. It takes a lot of trial and error but no real major changes. | ||
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