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Tarufuin
United States33 Posts
I'm sure doing a straight swap (as I did above) would not actually be balanced in game, but I'm curious to know what other people think about giving the roach a fairly major nerf, while retaining the 1-food and old regen, and buffing the hydra a little to make it more representative of its cost. Disclaimer: I play as protoss, not zerg, so I'm not sure exactly how powerful the hydra actually is atm, especially in ZvT. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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MannerKiss
United States2398 Posts
Have roaches be produced 2 per egg at 70~ hp (5 hp nurf) and 1 armor, 8 dmg. This is a substantial nurf against massing units like marines and zealots because armor upgrades on these units provide a much more significant bonus. This is a nurf to marauder slow because you have twice as many targets to slow, but a buff to marines because their armor bonuses are more effective, and they deal more dmg (armor debuff on roaches). Its a slight nurf to immortals (they take 4 hits now instead of 3 to kill a similar number or roaches) but a buff to zealots and stalkers for same reason as the marine. This enables the immortal to have its damage reduced against mech, while retaining the original idea that it counters tanks/mech huge damage. This leaves marauders open to a similar damage or hp change to make them less effective against everything protoss does. Just some thoughts i was throwing around in my head. Ideas? Thi | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
The roach is forcing the other races to hard counter, and it's forcing the metagame down more narrow paths. . | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
Blizzard needs to find a unit trinity that has an interesting relationship, but that also behaves very differently. Give the Roach less durability, but more speed and quantity. Give the Marauder less durability, but more positional or set-up potential. Keep the Protoss units the same, because there's nothing wrong with them in the first place. What's wrong is when the OTHER two races becomes like the Protoss. This is why, since the beginning, most people felt that the Protoss was the most "polished" race (according to various surveys). Its because Blizzard knows how to design them. They're "easier" to design. Their large health pools and lower unit count made it so that the developers could focus on their spells and things like that. It's harder with Zerg because you need to design a race which uses its shear numbers to its advantage, not its spells and HP pools. Thus, army movement and surrounding becomes more important. Terran is even harder because you need to design a race where its strong when set up properly and weak when it isnt. This is very difficult to do, but making a Protoss race is relatively easy (a race with fewer units, but makes up for it with stronger stats and more spells). Making every race like Protoss shouldn't be the answer. The way i've described this trinity is of course my own opinion, and I feel that SC2 moves it away from the relationship I've described above.. but I believe that they shouldn't have. In response to the OP, yes, the unit trinity does indeed run deep in the "problem" in sc2, but simply removing the Roach won't fix it. They need to change a few things between these 3 units so that the 3 races can play in a much mroe distinct way. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
He is NOT saying that roaches make zerg overpowered relative to the other races. In fact, he's saying the races are probably balanced. However, the races are balanced by virtue of 2 other 'broken' units, the immortal and the marauder. His main point is, that the roaches are overpowered relative to other zerg units. And because they are the 'hard counters', marauders and immortals are in the same boat. They are too strong relative to alternative units. The problem is that making roaches/marauders/immortals, is almost always better than making any other units. There is a dominant unit which it is ALWAYS the best to build. And this cuts down on the strategic depth of the game: a BAD thing. So the OP has a good point and I'd actually like to hear some reasoned responses. (More or less like BW doesn't seem very relevant.) | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
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Legedi
United States7 Posts
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Deviation
United States134 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
I play Zerg and I actually think Zerg would not be very underpowered even if the Roach was removed completely. Better still they could replace it with something more interesting. | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
On April 06 2010 01:40 TSL-Lore wrote:Blizzard needs to find a counter-soft counter relationship between three units like these without turning them all into 130+ HP, slow moving, projectile shooting, "Dragoon-like" units. The way they move and behave is too similar to a unit that should only belong in the Protoss army. I agree a lot with this. Stylistically the Roach definitely doesn't fit in with the rest of the Zerg race. To a lesser extent, neither does the Marauder fit in with Terran. Zerg and Terran just arent supposed to have units that tough at such a low tier. Tough but expensive units are Protoss territory. I'm not really sure what can be done about the Roach, but I will say that the SC1 hydra was a perfect T1.5 Zerg unit: a versatile workhorse that scales well into the late. I think stylistically it would be best if Marauders were meant to be used as support to Marines, which in turn are used as the primary vessels of damage. Considering they fire concussion grenades, I think some kind of low damage AoE attack with a minor but stackable (to a limit) AoE slow (and no bonus vs armored) would be great. This way common Terran T1 play would be mostly Marines for damage, with a few Marauders behind to assist. For this to work the Roach's 2 Armor definitely has to go. Combine this with a general buff to Tanks to replace Marauder as the definitive and devastating Terran answer to Armored Ground. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On April 06 2010 03:15 SoFFacet wrote: I agree a lot with this. Stylistically the Roach definitely doesn't fit in with the rest of the Zerg race. To a lesser extent, neither does the Marauder fit in with Terran. Zerg and Terran just arent supposed to have units that tough at such a low tier. Tough but expensive units are Protoss territory. I'm not really sure what can be done about the Roach, but I will say that the SC1 hydra was a perfect T1.5 Zerg unit: a versatile workhorse that scales well into the late. I think stylistically it would be best if Marauders were meant to be used as support to Marines, which in turn are used as the primary vessels of damage. Considering they fire concussion grenades, I think some kind of low damage AoE attack with a minor but stackable (to a limit) AoE slow (and no bonus vs armored) would be great. This way common Terran T1 play would be mostly Marines for damage, with a few Marauders behind to assist. For this to work the Roach's 2 Armor definitely has to go. Combine this with a general buff to Tanks to replace Marauder as the definitive and devastating Terran answer to Armored Ground. Thanks for reading. I've been pushing posts about this for a long time now.. particularly regarding the stylistic elements of the Roach. I think the problem here is that Blizzard has dug itself into a deep, deep hole now because they've established this somewhat well "balanced" trinity between these units by tweaking the numbers and inflating the health pools so that all three "match" each other evenly on the battlefield, whether through direct confrontation or other uses. In order for Blizzard to climb out of this hole, they would need to overhaul one or more of these units, which would throw balance out the window for other unit relationships. For example, as someone suggested earlier, for the Roach to have 2 per egg, with essentially half the stats of a single Roach. Well, if we do this, how will they fare against other units, and how will they behave in crowded situations? Will they be the same size? What will their range be and how will that now have to be balanced? Its a really difficult problem to solve, and if they were to solve it, i would think that the game would need to be pushed to a later date. I dont think they want to do that... | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On April 06 2010 01:40 TSL-Lore wrote: The problem with this trinity of units (roach/marauder/immortal) is that all three units behave and have stats similar to a unit that belongs in the Protoss army. Blizzard needs to find a counter-soft counter relationship between three units like these without turning them all into 130+ HP, slow moving, projectile shooting, "Dragoon-like" units. The way they move and behave is too similar to a unit that should only belong in the Protoss army. Blizzard needs to find a unit trinity that has an interesting relationship, but that also behaves very differently. Give the Roach less durability, but more speed and quantity. Give the Marauder less durability, but more positional or set-up potential. Keep the Protoss units the same, because there's nothing wrong with them in the first place. What's wrong is when the OTHER two races becomes like the Protoss. This is why, since the beginning, most people felt that the Protoss was the most "polished" race (according to various surveys). Its because Blizzard knows how to design them. They're "easier" to design. Their large health pools and lower unit count made it so that the developers could focus on their spells and things like that. It's harder with Zerg because you need to design a race which uses its shear numbers to its advantage, not its spells and HP pools. Thus, army movement and surrounding becomes more important. Terran is even harder because you need to design a race where its strong when set up properly and weak when it isnt. This is very difficult to do, but making a Protoss race is relatively easy (a race with fewer units, but makes up for it with stronger stats and more spells). Making every race like Protoss shouldn't be the answer. The way i've described this trinity is of course my own opinion, and I feel that SC2 moves it away from the relationship I've described above.. but I believe that they shouldn't have. In response to the OP, yes, the unit trinity does indeed run deep in the "problem" in sc2, but simply removing the Roach won't fix it. They need to change a few things between these 3 units so that the 3 races can play in a much mroe distinct way. I agree with you for the most part and want to point out sth you've mentioned once or twice in your post: Positioning. Like design Terran so they are good when positioned right... This is sth that's not only true for Terran, but is IMHO a fundamental flaw in the game: Positioning is nowhere near as important as in SC1. Okay, you can argue about having the Xel'Naga-Towers under your control, but mostly, thats just sending a small Unit there... It's all about the non-existing highground-advantage that is so hurtful for good strategical positioning. Okay, I've won several games because I've waited on a cliff for the enemy to run by and then attacking him wihtout him seeing my army, but that stuff only works against weaker players. So why not give REAL highground-advantage? I've talked about that with a few ppl and some arguments against highground-advantage were: It's too hard for newcomers. So what? Newcomers don't play for their life against a progamer and all the newcomers would have the same problem, so whats the harm in that? Besides, as written above, the "not seeing part" of the new highground-"advantage" is much more abusable against noobs that don't scan, don't use observers or other scouts. With so many Units that can hop on ledges and stuff, highground-advantage would just be too good. Well, let's think of an example: Reapers on a cliff (like on the natural of Kulas Ravine) harrassing your Probes. What is easier? - New Highground-Advantage (as in SC2): You have to get a Prism and fly sth up there OR sth that fly's and stuff that has a good ranged attack. Pretty damn hard to deal with unless you didn't tech to Robo anyways. - Old Highground-Advantage (as in SC:BW): You just need sth that has a ranged attack to deal with this and considering the opponent only had to build 1 Reaper from a building he uses anyways later on, that's not more you should have to build to deal with that. Real Highround-advantage would also make defensive play better against ppl just massing T1-stuff, which clearly would be a good thing. You could also position yourself on the Map, which adds strategical depth and it would make stuff like Tanks better without having to buff them in some kind of way. Besides, the way SC2 is now, you really don't wanna move out on the Map at all against all races, especially Terran and Zerg. Terran can just either Drop, Reaper-Harrass you or just pin down Units with the Marauders and Zerg can do heavy backstabs or Muta-harrass etc. To a certain extent that was also true in SC1, but you at least had a real advantage when you had good positioning on the Map and it was easier to defend against counterattacks/harrass with real highground-advantage. To "save" SC2, just implement real highground-advantage and get rid of the hard-counter-system or soften it up at least. Anything else would just be tweaking numbers, which will get figured out eventually, but those changes mentioned above are just fundamental flaws that need to be fixed to make SC2 a worthy successor of SC:BW. Of course, SC2 is still enjoyable now, but it would be even better with making those changes IMHO. | ||
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
Another major point why hard counters ruins SC2 is because the system itself forces the three races to be more similar, as opposed to when you have a soft counter system where you can have more difference between the races. Knowing that Blizzard completely overhauled the Starcraft Alpha build into a completely different game because of the reaction from the Warcraft 2 community means that it is not yet too late. Our hope is to make our voices heard, and there might a slight hope that Blizzard realizes how badly the hard counters turned out. | ||
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BOOWOO
United States83 Posts
I think the Immortal is fine. As another poster said, the Immortal has a good role and fits well with the Protoss army. However, the Roach is very out of place for zerg, as is the Maurader for Terran. Again, as someone said earlier, they are too much like Protoss units. I think the best option if you wanted to keep these units in the game would be as are would be to increase their buildtimes, and maybe the cost a bit. In my opinion, T1.5 units are meant to be slightly stronger T1 units that can support your initial, weak T1 army while you tech. One problem I see with the with the Maurader and Roach currently is that they are too cost effective AND massable. An increase in buildtime would leave extra resources for either teching, upgrades or adding more T1 units to your army, hence giving the 1.5 units more of a focus on support than massing. It would leave more windows for timing attacks and diversify strategy a bit, imo. If not, perhaps they could be completely reworked and given new roles. But I can't think exactly how right now. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On April 06 2010 04:11 HowardRoark wrote: Half, very well written. The Roach is the proof that it is the hard counter system of SC2 that is broken. The Roach is just a tad unimaginitive result. Even more proof is to try to play a ZvZ match; this matchup is so badly broken because of this. Another major point why hard counters ruins SC2 is because the system itself forces the three races to be more similar, as opposed to when you have a soft counter system where you can have more difference between the races. Knowing that Blizzard completely overhauled the Starcraft Alpha build into a completely different game because of the reaction from the Warcraft 2 community means that it is not yet too late. Our hope is to make our voices heard, and there might a slight hope that Blizzard realizes how badly the hard counters turned out. So so much agree with what you've written. Blizz should do sth about that! | ||
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Slurgi
United States118 Posts
On April 06 2010 04:11 HowardRoark wrote: Half, very well written. The Roach is the proof that it is the hard counter system of SC2 that is broken. The Roach is just a tad unimaginitive result. Even more proof is to try to play a ZvZ match; this matchup is so badly broken because of this. Another major point why hard counters ruins SC2 is because the system itself forces the three races to be more similar, as opposed to when you have a soft counter system where you can have more difference between the races. Knowing that Blizzard completely overhauled the Starcraft Alpha build into a completely different game because of the reaction from the Warcraft 2 community means that it is not yet too late. Our hope is to make our voices heard, and there might a slight hope that Blizzard realizes how badly the hard counters turned out. I was about ready to reply this exact same reply, but seems to found the words (or the thread, at least) first. I agree whole-heartedly with this entire post. | ||
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phrexis
United States12 Posts
If you change the roach dynamics, you can potentially change the game as a whole, since the roach is the origin of the balance of the game. Then you start thinking on down the line. If the roach dynamic is changed, this causes marauder and immortals to change. Would this cause other units like the thor to become a better unit? | ||
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nas
Canada33 Posts
On April 06 2010 03:15 SoFFacet wrote: Stylistically the Roach definitely doesn't fit in with the rest of the Zerg race. To a lesser extent, neither does the Marauder fit in with Terran. Zerg and Terran just arent supposed to have units that tough at such a low tier. Tough but expensive units are Protoss territory. Yup. Zerg should be overwhelming the other players with "meat bullets" while spreading over the map like a plague. Terran units should be weak (squishy) with good weapons. Protoss units should be strong but expensive. Protoss currently feels okay. Terran is mostly okay. Zerg is not. I really doubt that Blizzard will fix things at this point though. I hope there will be a strong mod community. | ||
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