EPTThe Roach is whats wrong with SC2. - Page 16
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:24 Spaylz wrote: Roaches are too good. I mean, 75/25, 145 hp, 16 base damage with 3 range AND IT ONLY TAKES 1 FOOD. That's what's ridiculous. The 1 food thing. I think Blizzard should decrease the Roaches' hp, like maybe from 145 to 115, 120... Also, it should definitely take 2 food. its just stupid that a stalker that costs 125 / 50 (almost double ) cant even take one out  | ||
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Sinekyre14
Norway12 Posts
On April 05 2010 10:45 Half wrote: The roaches role is screwed up. It originally gained 15 health every second, unburrowed, in its reveal in 08. Now it has been nerfed to gaining 15 health, upgraded, burrowed. Its role, initially creative, has been nerfed out of existence. Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas. SC is not designed around such a unit. Originally thought of as a T2 unit with a crazy unique playstyle, it has proved imbalancable to the overall framework of the game. Even it its repeatedly nerfed state The answer to almost all of SC2s current gameplay concerns stem from the existence of the roach. Remove it, or drastically rework it into something else, one more akin to the role of the Hydra (though I understand that it should not be another Hydra), rebalance the game accordingly, and most of the current gameplay problems in SC2 will no longer exist. Mech will be viable. Bioplay will be more diversified. PvZ will be more dynamic. Templars will be able to be balanced correctly (As health among T1 units will be more normalized against terran, rather then the enormous discrepancy we have now). Finally! The main problem with SC2 has been identified. We have to bring attention to these game-wrecking units before SC2 is released. I've actually been whining about this over skype for days, wondering why Blizzard never did anything to balance the roach. The problem isn't the roach per se, but that all three races have hard counters to ground that are accessible at tier 1. I can say with certainty, that if I'm forced to build Marauders every game (which is currently the case) to win securely, I'm not going to buy Starcraft 2. It takes TEN SIEGE TANK SHOTS to even begin to damage the immortal, and it can one-shot tanks. Two Collossus can kill 100.000 marines without micro. Blizzard, what were you thinking? | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:29 Marradron wrote: its just stupid that a sentry that costs 125 / 50 (almost double ) cant even take one out Uh, Sentries cost 50/100. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
They need to know this stuff.. Since marauder is used so much right now they might nerf if but leave other things the same when its really the trio of units who skew the metagame.. Immortals not so much in relation to roach/marauder but terran mech options. Considering they did some random stuff in patches who knows if they are aware of this.. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
This is actually pretty damn boring, every single Zerg I play just masses up Mutalisks, forces me to stay in my base while he expands everywhere and just crushes me with 150 pop 5 minutes later, when the mass Muta itself is not enough. Mutalisks need to have their hp decreased to 90 or 100 and also need to be nerfed speedwise. They're too polyvalent right now, no amount of air unit can compete with them in an air air fight, aside from maybe mass Carriers. I don't know about Terran, but I think that Phoenixes should be able to handle Mutalisks. Just common sense. "It takes TEN SIEGE TANK SHOTS to even begin to damage the immortal, and it can one-shot tanks. Two Collossus can kill 100.000 marines without micro. Blizzard, what were you thinking?" Ok now that's bullshit. While it does take 10 Siege Tanks shots to get through an Immortal's shield, Immortals can't one shot tanks. It takes 3 shots (which is still very powerful, but no need to exagerate it). Also, Colossi have been nerfed and they don't one shot marines anymore (which I find pretty damn ridiculous, people get surprised that a 300/200 T2.5 unit one shot the most basic T1 units, hello?) AND Colossi are very hardcountered by air. You just have to get two vikings to down one Colossus in a few seconds, there's nothing to complain about. Not to mention most Protoss players are forced to go Robo now because of the Storm nerf and because of EMP. | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
I meant stalkers xD sorry, my fault | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:30 Sinekyre14 wrote: Finally! The main problem with SC2 has been identified. We have to bring attention to these game-wrecking units before SC2 is released. I've actually been whining about this over skype for days, wondering why Blizzard never did anything to balance the roach. The problem isn't the roach per se, but that all three races have hard counters to ground that are accessible at tier 1. I can say with certainty, that if I'm forced to build Marauders every game (which is currently the case) to win securely, I'm not going to buy Starcraft 2. It takes TEN SIEGE TANK SHOTS to even begin to damage the immortal, and it can one-shot tanks. Two Collossus can kill 100.000 marines without micro. Blizzard, what were you thinking? Lol so your saying immortals one shot tanks ? try again. and one collossus without micro can take quite some rines. but not 100000. I'd say its like a reaver. Biased mutch for terran ?? | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:30 Sinekyre14 wrote: Two Collossus can kill 100.000 marines without micro. Blizzard, what were you thinking? Reavers/high templars couldnt? They owned them so much more that current templar and collosus.. Problem is of different kind that they dominate the metagame too much.. | ||
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
My scrubby changes: 1) Roach to 50g, -1 armor 2) Marauder to 125m, slow to tech lab, keep stim 3) No clue about immortal | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
it still seems as strong as ever. since you can just blanket entire armies in storm with nearly no effort for extended periods of time. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:33 Spaylz wrote: I also think Mutalisks need some kind of nerf too. In PvZ, mass Mutalisks is litteraly unbeatable. And no, Stalkers don't counter them. If the Protoss expands and the Zerg chooses to harass with his Mutalisks, the Stalkers will never be able to run in time to defend both bases, and the Protoss would need like 10 cannons on each base to counter a 10+ muta harass. This is actually pretty damn boring, every single Zerg I play just masses up Mutalisks, forces me to stay in my base while he expands everywhere and just crushes me with 150 pop 5 minutes later, when the mass Muta itself is not enough. Mutalisks need to have their hp decreased to 90 or 100 and also need to be nerfed speedwise. They're too polyvalent right now, no amount of air unit can compete with them in an air air fight, aside from maybe mass Carriers. I don't know about Terran, but I think that Phoenixes should be able to handle Mutalisks. Just common sense. "It takes TEN SIEGE TANK SHOTS to even begin to damage the immortal, and it can one-shot tanks. Two Collossus can kill 100.000 marines without micro. Blizzard, what were you thinking?" Ok now that's bullshit. While it does take 10 Siege Tanks shots to get through an Immortal's shield, Immortals can't one shot tanks. It takes 3 shots (which is still very powerful, but no need to exagerate it). Also, Colossi have been nerfed and they don't one shot marines anymore (which I find pretty damn ridiculous, people get surprised that a 300/200 T2.5 unit one shot the most basic T1 units, hello?) AND Colossi are very hardcountered by air. You just have to get two vikings to down one Colossus in a few seconds, there's nothing to complain about. Not to mention most Protoss players are forced to go Robo now because of the Storm nerf and because of EMP. I don't think the problem is that mutas have too much HP, but rather that Protoss has 1 splash damage unit that can't even properly counter Mutas. Think about it for a second. Terran got the Thor buffed probably just for mutalisks. Zerg has banelings to do God knows what to Terran, I dare not say... and Protoss has Archons.... but through the mass amount of testing and usage of these blue creatures, it's obvious that they are pretty ineffective. The best way to target the muta problem isn't to nerf them (since they're relatively weak against T) but to buff the Archon splash range. The second a toss goes for phoenix the hydra start massing... it's a game of hard counters. PvZ as a whole is broken as well as PvT. Here's a typical PvZ game: Zerg: 1 base pool Toss: 1 gate core Zerg: Expand Toss: Robo + Gate Zerg: Roaches + Lings/Hydra Toss: Zealot + Stalker + Sentry + Immortal + Obs (if they decided to burrow tech) Zerg: Muta Toss: Stargate --> Phoenix + Sentry Zerg: Hydra Toss: GG And PvT: Terran: Marauders Toss: GG Also because of the roach/muta + marauder problem I've switched from Toss to Random, since it's easier to win as Zerg AND Terran than it is to win as Protoss. Not going to bother finding a counter that doesn't exist. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:44 Amber[LighT] wrote: I don't think the problem is that mutas have too much HP, but rather that Protoss has 1 splash damage unit that can't even properly counter Mutas. Think about it for a second. Terran got the Thor buffed probably just for mutalisks. Zerg has banelings to do God knows what to Terran, I dare not say... and Protoss has Archons.... but through the mass amount of testing and usage of these blue creatures, it's obvious that they are pretty ineffective. The best way to target the muta problem isn't to nerf them (since they're relatively weak against T) but to buff the Archon splash range. The second a toss goes for phoenix the hydra start massing... it's a game of hard counters. PvZ as a whole is broken as well as PvT. Here's a typical PvZ game: Zerg: 1 base pool Toss: 1 gate core Zerg: Expand Toss: Robo + Gate Zerg: Roaches + Lings/Hydra Toss: Zealot + Stalker + Sentry + Immortal + Obs (if they decided to burrow tech) Zerg: Muta Toss: Stargate --> Phoenix + Sentry Zerg: Hydra Toss: GG And PvT: Terran: Marauders Toss: GG Also because of the roach/muta + marauder problem I've switched from Toss to Random, since it's easier to win as Zerg AND Terran than it is to win as Protoss. Not going to bother finding a counter that doesn't exist. Archon doesnt even have splash.. Only air splash was storm which is not useful vs mutas with much lower area.. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
Marauders should have their damage reduced and also their hp and cost slightly reduced making them ineffective on their own. They would then be used for their slowing effect and not their damage and would be grouped with other units that could deal the damage. Since the hp is reduced but the stim still costs the same amount of hp, Marauders with stim wouldn't be as OP as before. Immortals should have their bonus damage against armored units reduced. Their main trait should be their hardened shields, they should be a tanking unit to soak up damage from units like tanks and thors. If they weren't the heavy damage dealers vs armored units that they are today terran mech might be viable. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:44 Amber[LighT] wrote: I don't think the problem is that mutas have too much HP, but rather that Protoss has 1 splash damage unit that can't even properly counter Mutas. Think about it for a second. Terran got the Thor buffed probably just for mutalisks. Zerg has banelings to do God knows what to Terran, I dare not say... and Protoss has Archons.... but through the mass amount of testing and usage of these blue creatures, it's obvious that they are pretty ineffective. The best way to target the muta problem isn't to nerf them (since they're relatively weak against T) but to buff the Archon splash range. The second a toss goes for phoenix the hydra start massing... it's a game of hard counters. PvZ as a whole is broken as well as PvT. Here's a typical PvZ game: Zerg: 1 base pool Toss: 1 gate core Zerg: Expand Toss: Robo + Gate Zerg: Roaches + Lings/Hydra Toss: Zealot + Stalker + Sentry + Immortal + Obs (if they decided to burrow tech) Zerg: Muta Toss: Stargate --> Phoenix + Sentry Zerg: Hydra Toss: GG And PvT: Terran: Marauders Toss: GG Also because of the roach/muta + marauder problem I've switched from Toss to Random, since it's easier to win as Zerg AND Terran than it is to win as Protoss. Not going to bother finding a counter that doesn't exist. Nah, Archons are not the solution. You would have to tech to Templars, then merge two or four of them, etc... The gas cost would be insanely high and there would still be a good chance that the massive amount of Mutalisks would just eat your Archons up. But you're right, the answer isn't to nerf Mutalisks, but to buff Protoss air counters. Stalkers have already been buffed and they're decent now, but Phoenixes are still worthless. They're the ones that need buffing. If Phoenixes get buffed, like if they would get some kind of air-to-air AoE attack (Corsair hi...), it would be just fine. They're the only units that can catch up with Mutalisks speedwise, and they would still be pretty pricy, but at least it would create ONE option, ONE real way to counter Mutalisks. And that's what Protoss needs. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Make DMG-Boni much weaker and give the game real highground advantage and the game would in it's core be fine and you would just have to tweak some Units a bit... This whole rock-paper-scissor-stuff is just so stupid and Blizzard promised they wouldn't do that with SC2, but here we are, just massing counterunits... Lets say for example that there is no more DMG-additions, you basically had to make roaches have less Armor (so that Marines could be used against them), give the Immortal an attack-buff (like 30 basic and maybe +5-10 vs Armored) and change the shield-ability a bit so that it's not just a hard-counter to tanks and voilà - You'd see lots more marines, tanks and non-immortal oriented stuff being used. Also; give Buildings another Armor-Type than "Armored" at least... because it's ridiculous how fast Immortals or Marauders kick buildings... especially Mass-marauders with Stim can snipe a nexus and retreat within seconds - how ridiculous is that? Also, you can buff static defense as hard as you want it won't get used if Immortals deal +30 DMG and Marauders double of the basic DMG... | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:52 DrainX wrote: I think all three units can be balanced and be made into three units that fit three distinct roles rather than three all round very strong units. The roach should be changed to 2 supply and maybe have its hp and cost raised to balance the increased supply cost. This would make the roach an early damage soaking unit for zerg but would make it impossible to mass them in the numbers we see today. Marauders should have their damage reduced and also their hp and cost slightly reduced making them ineffective on their own. They would then be used for their slowing effect and not their damage and would be grouped with other units that could deal the damage. Since the hp is reduced but the stim still costs the same amount of hp, Marauders with stim wouldn't be as OP as before. Immortals should have their bonus damage against armored units reduced. Their main trait should be their hardened shields, they should be a tanking unit to soak up damage from units like tanks and thors. If they weren't the heavy damage dealers vs armored units that they are today terran mech might be viable. Seriously, fly to Blizzard HQ and tell this to their faces. I like how the units are changed from their hard counter scheme to a unique role. However, I think the Roach would be a less boring unit if it would walk very slow on ground but very fast while burrowed. They would also have very low HP but very rapid regeneration that the only way they would die is getting detection and focus firing on them one by one. I don't like how the Roach currently has decent HP and close-to-normal regen which kinda strays from his supposed design logic. | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
standardization of units that once had distinct and "fun" roles cannot be the way to go. either discard the idea or balance the unit in a way that it has its own unique function in a diverse army and not the main allrounder role. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:52 DrainX wrote: I think all three units can be balanced and be made into three units that fit three distinct roles rather than three all round very strong units. The roach should be changed to 2 supply and maybe have its hp and cost raised to balance the increased supply cost. This would make the roach an early damage soaking unit for zerg but would make it impossible to mass them in the numbers we see today. Marauders should have their damage reduced and also their hp and cost slightly reduced making them ineffective on their own. They would then be used for their slowing effect and not their damage and would be grouped with other units that could deal the damage. Since the hp is reduced but the stim still costs the same amount of hp, Marauders with stim wouldn't be as OP as before. Immortals should have their bonus damage against armored units reduced. Their main trait should be their hardened shields, they should be a tanking unit to soak up damage from units like tanks and thors. If they weren't the heavy damage dealers vs armored units that they are today terran mech might be viable. /AGREED! I just hate being forced to play certain Units - it totally kills the game-diversity... But at least we've seen a few cuts in Bonus-DMG in the last few patches, though the biggest Problems are still remaining, those being Immos and Marauders of course. I mean: Blizzard said that they would do bigger changes if necessary, so WTF is up with that? If you see roaches and marauders and Immortals don't really work instead of being just stupid counter-units or Units you have to counter, why not change them?... | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On April 05 2010 22:57 Ghardo wrote: blizz developers should seriously read this. good and valid points! standardization of units that once had distinct and "fun" roles cannot be the way to go. either discard the idea or balance the unit in a way that it has its own unique function in a diverse army and not the main allrounder role. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24038430112&sid=5000 Whoever created this thread thanks  I would suggest everyone who has complaints to voice their opinions OVER THERE. Since they will probably read their own threads if it looks like it's a huge issue they will take it more seriously. I also linked Plexa's marauder thread and I hope the OP will add it so they have both threads for reference, since both of these threads have had great discussions on Roaches/Marauders/Immortals. | ||
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