EPTand i dunno i just feel roaches make zerg alot less mobile. but thats my feeling alone i guess.
The Roach is whats wrong with SC2. - Page 14
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
and i dunno i just feel roaches make zerg alot less mobile. but thats my feeling alone i guess. | ||
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fspikec
United States30 Posts
Somewhat. I like certain features of both SC2 and SC1. I also hate certain aspects of both. Automine is great imo. Larger group sizes is another plus. But everything into 1 group is overkill. And SC1 limited it too much imo. The balance was much greater in SC1 while in SC2 I believe we will see larger amount of diverse (somewhat broken) strategies. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
or uh... scbw. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On April 05 2010 17:45 fspikec wrote: Somewhat. I like certain features of both SC2 and SC1. I also hate certain aspects of both. Automine is great imo. Larger group sizes is another plus. But everything into 1 group is overkill. And SC1 limited it too much imo. The balance was much greater in SC1 while in SC2 I believe we will see larger amount of diverse (somewhat broken) strategies. If units were more useful when divided into multiple control groups they would be used that way. The problem is that units are designed in a way that doesn't make this any more useful. Hence, everything is put into one control group. The balance in Starcraft 1 is a result of balancing through micro. Limited use of this principle in Starcraft 2. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
As a spectator sport, I guess I still prefer SC 1, though SC 2 has a lot more potential if Blizzard would take notice. | ||
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TerranUp16
United States88 Posts
On April 05 2010 14:26 Half wrote:Siege damage is also just not high enough against anything other then light. The only MU where its viable is TvT because Bio isn't strong enough in that MU, and TvZ because it only does decent damage against Hydras Honestly I wonder if 55 flat damage would be OP. While I pretty much wholly agree w/your OP and the premise of the thread (as a Terran, I am just thoroughly annoyed with all three of those units atm; Immortals would be more bearable if not for their Chrono-boosted build time being insanely fast for the caliber of unit they are). However, I just wanted to point out that the 60 flat damage Siege Tanks do in SC2 is absolutely brutal to Zerg ground units, with the pretty much sole exception being Roaches since it takes at least three hits to kill them (Hydralisks die in two hits and tend to bunch very nicely xD) and they're downright dangerous if they manage to get anywhere near the Tanks (pretty much as dangerous as Hydralisks if not more- but the point of Hydralisks was always that they could snipe Tanks if they could find a way to get near them alive whereas Roaches just tank through Tank fire). The only thing holding back full Terran mech play in TvZ atm is mass Roaches, and even then it's less a matter of going bio instead of mech and more a matter of keeping a Tech 'Rax or two around to pump Marauders to help deal with that. Not really a fan of having to do that since it's not even a process of getting upgraded Marauders or anything but rather just getting barely enough unupgraded Marauders to help tank any Roaches that get close-in to the Tanks. Total side note, but I think Roaches may also be to blame for many of the "issues" with Mutalisks. Specifically, Muta contains in SC2 were rarely *just* Muta contains/harass but rather Muta/Roach contain. Whereas in Brood War, during the Muta stage of TvZ, the primary deterrent to the Terran player moving out and "breaking the contain" during this period is that to do so leaves the base/supply lines vulnerable for a period in return for what still ends up being a precarious situation because of the risk from 'lings + Mutas combined (and/or to push a Zerg base/expansion would be to fight against 'lings, Mutas, and Sunkens all at once). The key there is the combination of all of those together with strong micro are the deterrent. Exceptionally strong defense, macro, and micro can allow Terrans such as Flash to be aggressive during this period, but this takes quite a bit of skill. Comparatively, in SC2 Roaches are cheap enough and macro mechanics (Larvae Inject) friendly enough that the Zerg can mass up quite a few before transitioning into the Muta harass/contain. The issue then comes where the bio Terran needs to skew his/her composition towards Marines to combat the Mutas but because of this, the Roaches alone now are a significant threat outside the Terran's base. That element of Zerg only being able to keep Terran penned-up for so long as Terran eventually got Vessels out to deal with the Mutas and a few Siege Tanks to allow him to push back against the Lurkers meant that the Zerg could only take so much advantage of the situation and still needed to pump combat units and tech and etc. Previous to the Thor and Turret buff, a Terran might be able to break out of the Muta contain with smart use of Ravens (although Seeker is not quite the hard counter that Irradiate was, but Point Defense offers a nice middle-ground) or with a force skewed heavily towards Vikings or Marines- neither of which prove very helpful against Roaches. These issues in turn have led to the Thor being reworked yet again to put some serious smack down on Mutas although I'm not really sure this was necessary if Roaches were taken out of the equation (Viking defense with pre-patch Thor and/or Marines was fine imo). Now, as for where I'd like to see Roaches go... well, I'd like to see them go somewhere really. At the moment, their original concept seems to have been butchered between the hp regen nerfing and their extremely high hp negating a serious need to leverage the interesting Tunneling Claws upgrade to get Roaches in range. My favored solution atm would be to greatly reduce Roach hp (if they try to stand up and fight against Siege Tanks or other high damage units for ex, they should just get annihilated), but bring back their regen, move them to T2, start them w/speed upgrade, and Tunneling Claws readily accessible @T2 (well, more or less taking Roaches from T2 to T2.5 ala Stim's effect on Marines in SC1). Preferably buff burrowed Roaches to take only half damage from attacks or increase their armor while burrowed thus making their burrowed movement capability useful for approaching a target even when detectors are about. Meanwhile, amp up the gas cost and mineral cost a bit while moving the Hydralisk back down to T1 (and readjusting its cost and stats to accommodate as necessary). What you ultimately get then is a T2+ assassin unit for Zerg. The focus is on using its burrowed movement to get it into position to unburrow and snipe targets, basically hit-and-run, leveraging its regen as best it can. For example, against Siege Tanks it could burrow and move towards its target Siege Tank, either doing so unseen or at least taking a bit less damage while doing it therefore increasing survivability. Of course, Terran can counter with Hellion "shields" and such (decreased hp of Roaches will make them modestly susceptible to sizable amounts of defensively-positioned Hellions, although likely only if the Terran has detection and can get his Tanks to get some shots off at the Roaches on their way in), but then, well, things evolve from there really as that necessitates more defensive use of the Terran's units and etc. In just that situation alone I think it's really interesting since it really would slap in a lot more depth to ZvT's dealing with mech (going beyond only being able to leverage mech's immobility to out-expand and out-macro mech to just overwhelm it or to win a war of attrition). But, beyond that, I'm sure you guys can already start thinking of tons of potential uses for this in other match-ups and situations as well. Potential concerns with the above are that with only the Hydralisk in T1 for Zerg to try and fend off Reapers and Hellions, that doesn't look great at first as both Reapers and Hellions do bonus damage to Hydralisks (and Hellions in particular have been known to be able to just melt Hydralisks' faces off), but I think the key here is that if this were to happen then Hydralisks' price would be readjusted accordingly and, as well, you'll be able to get them out sooner and therefore start to build up more sooner than you could previously. As well, mass Hydras > mass Reapers despite Reapers' nice DPS against them so there is definitely a macro component there as well as a micro component. For Hellion rushes, while Hellions do great against Hydralisks, it takes a fair bit of micro to do (I've already seen a thread here where a poster bemoaned how Hellions had failed him against Hydralisks because he was just attack-moving against them) and as well it only really works properly when the Zerg player allows the Hellions to surround his/her bunched-up Hydralisks. Again, I think that's an area where it really just comes up to the players to leverage their micro and macro skills to decide that. Looking at Marauders and Immortals, my immediate thoughts for Immortals are just going with the simple damage reduction and slight build time increase (build time to offset Chrono Boost slightly- don't want to destroy the macro mechanic ofc, but atm Chrono Boosted Immortals can be produced as quickly as Marines), along with possibly some ability that allows the Protoss player to ensure that Immortals are able to proceed with tanking damage ala Taunt although I wonder if that might not be a bit extreme (as things currently stand, Immortals are priority targets despite their tanking capability specifically because they have some vicious teeth against your high-value units but if their damage is significantly reduced then those teeth are dulled and there is little urgency to target them immediately). For Marauders, if Blizzard really wants to stick with the unit and its core design, a gas increase might be all that's really necessary. However, I am thinking that both the Marauder and Thor need a serious reconsidering of what Blizzard wants those units to be and do. Specifically, what Blizzard *really* wants to fill those slots with and what holes they want to plug and how to plug them and etc as opposed to atm where both units seem to be the result of Blizzard really wanting to preserve what they have while being backed into a wall by needing to adapt them to fill various needs. | ||
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ethos
Korea (South)26 Posts
That is because the three main units at this point are intrinsically the same: ranged, armored, can only target ground. SC1 seems always to balance at a point where it is mechanically interesting; where the mechanics of the units countering each other are different. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
but the problem is that you can't afford to allow your opponent to get the stronger ground army, which means everything comes back to immortal/roach/marauder even at t3. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
In zerg its the roaches In terran its the marauder Protoss doesn't really have anything it can mass. It needs a good composition of zealot/stalker/immortal to actually win battles. IMO, just screw with the idea of hard counters. There weren't many in sc1, so why have it in sc2? Like goons are counter to vulture while zealot are to tanks, but sometimes goons are better against tanks cause they don't cluster as much. Marines rape muta, but with proper micro, mutas can rape tons and tons of marine. Just take out all hard counter and replace it with soft counters. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On April 05 2010 18:20 hoovehand wrote: the obvious counter to all three is AIR. but the problem is that you can't afford to allow your opponent to get the stronger ground army, which means everything comes back to immortal/roach/marauder even at t3. That's true, but if you make air stronger you risk making ground obsolete altogether. Air already has a huge mobility advantage, after all. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
On April 05 2010 18:37 QibingZero wrote: I keep seeing posts that describe Immortals as what end mech play for Terran, but in reality it's a lot worse than just Immortals. Zealots have charge and can close the distance much faster. Stalkers have blink and can even ruin tanks on high ground and behind buildings without a problem now. So if a protoss sees mech play, he can easily counter with not just Immortals, but upgrades for the units he's building anyway. That's true, but if you make air stronger you risk making ground obsolete altogether. Air already has a huge mobility advantage, after all. Yeah, SC should never be about air because you never want to negate the importance of the map. | ||
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
what would happen, if roaches and marauders were to end up as "light - armored - biological"? those don't have to be mutually exclusive, right? edit: also, what would happen if the archon were "massive - psionic"? thinking of immunity vs slow here... | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
People mention how the roach should be nerfed, There are various methods. The problem with roach nerfing is that the zerg race as a whole gets more week. The roach is said to be a tough unit that is hard to kill because of regeneration and high hp. This makes for a need of high damage dealing units, which cause a dip in so-called fun. A different approach to having roaches be tough, is the following: Give roaches lower hp and perhaps lower regeneration. Give them also an ability where they will morph into an egg and grow into two new roaches. The morph should cost minerals for it to not be crazy out of balance. The result of a morph should be two roaches with half health regardless of the roach that morphed into an egg. Application in battle has a pro and a con. There will again be the possibility of egg blocks. Damaged roaches can be transformed for a possible new opportunity, But just like morphing high templars, they might get killed in the egg when most of the battle is done. (Disclaimer: I dont play in the beta, pure theorycrafting) | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
double your damage at the cost of health? serious imbalance there. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
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sCuMBaG
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On April 05 2010 17:52 Azarkon wrote: I like the fact that SC 1 was a bit more clear with positioning in that 2D collision and manual pathfinding made good positioning obvious. SC 2's unit blobs look cool but make positioning "appear" automatic and thus less tactical. As a spectator sport, I guess I still prefer SC 1, though SC 2 has a lot more potential if Blizzard would take notice. i love your post i'm just gonna wait and see what happens. some good stuff in here. only problem for me is... my computer lags like hell when it goes down to maxed armies. i'm not able to place storms properly or emp or anything -.- i guess to play on a high level you need to buy a good computer.. (although mine is not bad at all..) | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
On April 05 2010 19:03 MavercK wrote: holy batshit insane. morph 1 roach into 2 with half hp? double your damage at the cost of health? serious imbalance there. At the cost of health and minerals (and gas I guess). Building roaches from larva should not be too much different. But it allows for roaches to be built somewhat more nearby the battlefield, and it is a way to salvage badly damaged roaches a bit more quickly, if the regeneration rate is somewhat dropped. I mean this idea mostly as a buff to counter nerf, making the role of the roach go in a bit of a different direction. | ||
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dthree
Australia150 Posts
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